Official 'enterbasefrompasscode' Resolution thread

[MunkiLord]

5 hours ago, QuiJon said:

But you are talking about changed that had to be done for pvp that were of negligible use in PVE which is why they were not done until pvp was added. When you have a mob of NPCs standing around you fighting toe to toe a 2 foot difference in melee range means nothing. When you are fighting someone jumping around like an idiot on a hopped up combat jumping it does. Same thing goes for the taunt range. Don't need that kind of range when all your enemies are standing in a room or on a map and not moving or roaming around looking for enemies. You only need to hit the ones you can run up to and agro in yoru immediate range.

That 2 feet was a 40% buff in range, that is absolutely significant. 

[ShardWarrior]

I think the discussions about what did or did not get nerfed because of PvP is irrelevant to the topic.  You don't have to like PvP to understand that having the existing slash command available is being exploited in PvP and it is taking away from the enjoyment of some, so it absolutely needs to be addressed.  Asking to remove PvP is unproductive because it isn't going to happen, nor should it.  Just like many other aspects of the game, if you don't enjoy it, don't do it.  I personally don't care for PvP at all, never really participate in it and don't intend to.  With that said, I most certainly do not want to have an exploit like this available that takes away from the enjoyment of those who like PvP.  It's not fair to them.

 

Let's please try to stick to the topic at hand.  Perhaps start another thread if you would like to discuss something other than ideas for replacing the base slash command.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

I think the discussions about what did or did not get nerfed because of PvP is irrelevant to the topic.  You don't have to like PvP to understand that having the existing slash command available is being exploited in PvP and it is taking away from the enjoyment of some, so it absolutely needs to be addressed.  Asking to remove PvP is unproductive because it isn't going to happen, nor should it.  Just like many other aspects of the game, if you don't enjoy it, don't do it.  I personally don't care for PvP at all, never really participate in it and don't intend to.  With that said, I most certainly do not want to have an exploit like this available that takes away from the enjoyment of those who like PvP.  It's not fair to them.

 

Let's please try to stick to the topic at hand.  Perhaps start another thread if you would like to discuss something other than ideas for replacing the base slash command.

I used to PvP on live. I lost my taste for it these days though, so I no longer PvP at all on any level. Having said that, there used to be another exploit people were using. They would queue up for a match, then when they were about to die, they would accept the match and instantly transport out. So, having said that; wouldn't it much simpler to take away the /command, and replace it with an actual power that greys out in PvP zones?

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Profit said:

You also forgot

Intangibility - 'all of them being changed from a toggle to a click'

Toggle dropping on tanks/scrappers/brutes/stalkers - 'omg we can't get past their defenses now that IOs are here'

 

And for those of you refuting his claims. You're wrong.

 

ED was done for two reasons, first because pvpers complained about not being able to damage resist based toons because 'omg the six slotted toggles', it was done secondly because IOs were coming

GDN was done for two reasons, first because pvpers couldn't hit SR Scrappers. Second because IOs were coming.

Travel Power Suppression was implemented to prevent jousting because pvpers couldn't stand blasters/stalkers coming through and whacking them on the way through and not being to melee back.

Regen was originally nerfed because one player made a claim, posi insisted it couldn't be done, player told posi how wrong he was, posi one day teleported the player to a hidden cave and spawned monsters for the player who was on a claws/regen scrapper, posi found out real quick how wrong he was. The next regen nerf was absolutely pvpers complaining about not being able to out DPS them.

 

And now, pvpers have complained about the enterbasefrompasscode. Even if it was a 'mistake' to have it turned on, it was a low priority fix until the pvpers whined.

 

I was on the original forums when this went down, I had a job that afforded me the opportunity to lurk the forums for 8 hours a day. I watched it happen. This is not revisionist history, this is accurate, stop trying to convince people otherwise.

 

And you know what the worst part is, posi and every original dev on the boards claimed, promised, and swore that nothing in PVE would ever be changed because of PVP. And they LIED. Just like they lied about tanks getting a new mechanic that allowed them gain damage bonus by being attacked and attacking. Even though it was a year long discussion thread in the tank forums, input and discussion. And Promises were made there to, that tanks would be getting this wonderful new mechanic. Right up until they needed to drive sales for, you guessed it, COV.

 

PVPers need to own up to the changes they have caused to happen to the PVE game.

You can claim all you'd like that PvP was the sole reason for any of those changes but you're wrong. The only PvE nerf that happened solely for PvP reasons, in the entire history of this game, is a change to the way the repel ticks in Hurricane function. But hey, I'll bite.

• Intangibility powers - does anyone actually take these in PvE? If yes, obviously being able to completely remove a targeted enemy or enemies from the playing field for as long as you want without any downtime via an autohit toggle is broken (but nevermind that even after they got changed to click powers you could still perma-cage things).
• Toggle dropping - toggle dropping was a PvP-only mechanic and didn't exist in PvE. Why even bring that up?
• ED - lack of ED meant builds were shoehorned into certain slotting combinations pretty much without exception. ED was necessary to pave the way for the IO system. Neither of those are PvP-only concerns.
• GDN - defense-based sets were too good relative to resistance-based ones. Not an exclusive-to-PvP concern. Defense has almost never been in a good place in PvP because of the amount of tohit you can put out.
• Travel suppression - being able to kite NPCs with zero risk to yourself because you're out of range of their attacks by the time they aggro on you is obviously not a balanced mechanic. Nevermind that you can completely get around travel suppression by having a Kin on your team. Like... the idea that travel suppression was put in because of PvP is laughable.
• Regen nerfs - toggle IH was obviously way too good in any situation, PvP or PvE, and trying to argue otherwise is disingenuous.
• Enterbasefrompasscode - is Leandro saying that people can use it as a cheese mechanic to avoid deaths during "Master of" runs going to be something that you conveniently ignore?

PvPers don't need to "own up" to any changes because with one exception they haven't been the sole cause of any of them. You can argue all you want about why PvP is bad and the dirty PvPers  took your toys, but you're wrong, plain and simple.

4 hours ago, Profit said:

Please, if this were true then in PVP zones powers would function exactly the same as they do in PVE zones. But oh look, they don't! They even do different amounts of dmg/res/rechg! And OH LOOK there is a specific set of PVP IOs that grant two different types of bonuses depending on which zone they are in!!!!

 

Your statement is wildly inaccurate. For it to be accurate, things would have to function exactly the same in both sets of zones. Exactly.

 

Honestly, the best thing that could ever happen to this game is to roll back to before PVP, but since that couldn't happen without pulling a lot of spaghetti, the absolute best thing that can happen is a segregation of changes based on zones. Complete segregation. Power causing issues in PVP zones, that change better never effect the PVE side of the game. Then everyone is happy. PVPers get to continue on doing what they want, PVE doesn't every have to worry about it messing with ACTUAL FUNDAMENTAL GAMEPLAY. Don't forget, this game didn't start with PVP, it was added much later, as such it should not effect what was here before it.

...You are aware that PvP powers and mechanics are vastly different because of an ill-advised and misguided effort to rebalance PvP by a developer who did not PvP, which no one asked for, and were pushed through despite the PvP community already having presented their ideas for how to improve PvP?

 

Let's not be disingenuous and say that PvP was "added much later." This game existed on live for eight and a half years and PvP was part of that game for seven and a half of those.

 

I know you have your opinions about how the game should work, about game mechanics, about the effectiveness of powers and powersets, and you can defend those until you're blue in the face because they're your opinions, but in this case they're objectively wrong.

Edited September 29, 2019 by macskull

[n00baka]

I want to start off by saying that I am not, and never have been, a fan of PvP. It’s not enjoyable to me, and I’ve tried it initially when the Arena came out, again when PvP zones got big, and would risk it for PvE rewards from PvP zones. 
 

With all that said, I stand firmly with the PvP players in this thread because they’re right. All of the listed changes weren’t for PvP. The Hurricane thing was specified for PvP, and I remember that because it was a one of a kind treat where they said that yes, it was for PvP, but that it shouldn’t affect PvE. They were mostly right there, so I don’t even fault the Devs for that.

 

Claiming PvP is the reason for all the changes in PvE that people don’t like is being dishonest to yourself at best, and deliberately revisionist at worst. But it’s always been easier to blame the minority for perceived bad changes. 
 

And honestly, the fact that an official voice has come to this very thread and said what they hope to accomplish and possible changes they want to make should have been the end of the discussion. Instead there are players blaming other players who had valid concerns. Ignore the fact that players weren’t supposed to have that, because players did get it, and want to keep a developer tool. I get that, because it is useful. Which is why the fact that GM stated they’re looking to keep the functionality without the game altering issues. Hell, PvE players should be -rejoicing- about the fact that the Base Teleport power is being looked at now, that base to base travel is being considered, and that ease of gameplay is getting a bump in general because of this. 

[Lost Ninja]

8 hours ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

You know posting stuff on the internet, then saying you were being sarcastic when proven wrong and passive aggressively insulting the person who took the time to prove you wrong and engage in the conversation simply makes you look bad, right?

If not, I would like for you to know that. 

Looking bad, go for it. I don't mind looking bad. (And you can look through my other posts (on other threads) and see that if I'm shown to be wrong I'll admit it). And frankly while I'd love the world to love me, if they don't it's their loss. I really don't much care how someone at odds with my PoV who I have never met/played with sees me, and I certainly won't be losing any sleep over it.

 

You have yet to prove my opinion wrong, I'm not sure you can. You can assert that things I believe to be true are in fact untrue and if I present facts you can show them to be untrue. But to show me that my opinion is wrong you would have to change my opinion. And frankly insulting me and calling me out for things I haven't in fact done isn't going to do the job.

 

Something else I'm picking up from your replies: Changes to the game to facilitate PvP != The PvP Community. "The PvP Community" are those people who enjoy PvP, maybe they enjoy PvE as well maybe not. You might even potentially include devs whose responsibility is with PvP changes. But the community doesn't actually include the changes themselves.

 

That wasn't what you said. You said that I blamed the PvP community for the removal of something. I might say that I blame Cryptic for adding PvP and then messing up the game to make it work, I didn't, but arguably I blame them. But where did I blame the PvP community? Nor am I sure as to where I insulted anyone, (I just read back through the message chain and I didn't in fact insult anyone), didn't blame anyone. Didn't in fact do any of the things you say I did. So shall we go with another "internet thing" and say I won the argument because it's the people who respond to arguments with insults who are the losers... 😛

 

That said the only person around here that I can see flinging (potential) insults at groups is you:

8 hours ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

PvP players are naturally vindictive, people would love to report and get people banned (What that says about the community aside), it would be very easy. 

Some of the nicest people I know are hardcore PvP fanatics (though admittedly not in CoH). As a rule what someone enjoys doesn't make them into specific types of people. People who enjoy PvP are people who enjoy PvP, nothing more nothing less.

 

Anyway, onwards:

8 hours ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

While I certainly agree that, in a perfect world, PvE and PvP should be separate to best fulfill the best interests of both communities, I disagree with this underlying premise that leads people to villify and scorn the PvP community as "The reason all these bad things happened". They weren't, and the belief that it was is objectively and demonstrably false. It's also just not a valid point in this instance.

In a perfect world there would be no difference between the two. Learning to play the game one way then learning a different way to do things is one of my issues with it (PvP). I'm not suggesting open world PvP, but having to play substantially differently because PvP powers work differently. And yes I am aware of the difference between fight players and mobs... players are more fun generally. But powers should function identically whether facing a player or mob and currently (well last time I played PvP) many/most didn't.

8 hours ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

If this was "Just a PvP" issue, it would be simple. Make it against the rules, and attach a punishment. I am perhaps one of, if not the most prolific PvPer (I just PvP more then almost anyone else, I'm a zone rat), and I have only seen two people in dozens of hours a week of PvP that abuse it.

From what has been said it IS a simple issue, it can in it's current form be abused. I thought this thread was to try and get a solution to these issues other than just removing it. Flat out disabling it while you're doing MoTFs (or while on TF/Trial, not actually done a MoTF yet (recently) to recall how you set one up) or in PvP zones (and in the arenas if anyone still uses them), would be a major step in that direction. Would only affect those in a position to abuse it and wouldn't affect those of us who use it to get to our bases (or our friend's bases) quickly (and without c/d).

 

And I'd be quite happy if the changes also included a short cool down (like 5 mins) and/or a short interrupt. It's the ability to jump to a specific base with the passcode that I don't want removed.

8 hours ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

If this gets "Fixed" it would be a very classic example of issue recognized by PvP community, and nerfed because of PvE reasons. Which is how most of these misunderstandings happen.

When this gets fixed it will hopefully be an example of a dev listening to the community to affect a change that doesn't penalise those who aren't abusing something but prevents said abuse. Who actually reported the abuse and what play styles they enjoy should be immaterial.

[Lost Ninja]

5 hours ago, macskull said:

Travel suppression - being able to kite NPCs with zero risk to yourself because you're out of range of their attacks by the time they aggro on you is obviously not a balanced mechanic. Nevermind that you can completely get around travel suppression by having a Kin on your team. Like... the idea that travel suppression was put in because of PvP is laughable.

Travel Suppression in it's current form was entirely due to PvP. It's the only one I can remember for certain. It was pretty much to stop ATs with very high damage (Blappers and Stalkers mostly) attacks from jumping past you doing a ton of damage and being out of range before you can respond. If you didn't see what took most of your health in one shot, and cannot target them because they are no longer in range you cannot respond (well apart from whining on the forums about broken travel powers).

 

If it were a PvE change as you seem to think then it's totally failed. You can still kite with impunity (if the mob doesn't leash). You can still pull by attacking and hiding in cover. Changes to address this in PvE do exist but would have little affect on PvP. (Melee mobs gettting ranged attacks, originally some purely melee mobs had no ranged attack. -Fly in attacks from protazoans, they had ranged attacks but if you had fly you could pretty much ignore their melee attacks.)

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

Travel Suppression in it's current form was entirely due to PvP. It's the only one I can remember for certain. It was pretty much to stop ATs with very high damage (Blappers and Stalkers mostly) attacks from jumping past you doing a ton of damage and being out of range before you can respond. If you didn't see what took most of your health in one shot, and cannot target them because they are no longer in range you cannot respond (well apart from whining on the forums about broken travel powers).

 

If it were a PvE change as you seem to think then it's totally failed. You can still kite with impunity (if the mob doesn't leash). You can still pull by attacking and hiding in cover. Changes to address this in PvE do exist but would have little affect on PvP. (Melee mobs gettting ranged attacks, originally some purely melee mobs had no ranged attack. -Fly in attacks from protazoans, they had ranged attacks but if you had fly you could pretty much ignore their melee attacks.)

There were several changes because of PvP. Ice for example, had a damage reduction. It also had a delayed pause put in between activation of a couple powers, because Ice Blasters could launch three hits by the time the other player could react. The pause is still there to this day, however, it has been adjusted so that it isn't so bad to tolerate anymore. Before the Ice nerf, Ice was once king in PvP as a Blaster.

 

Also, a Stalker's Placate was nerfed when it changed from putting the Stalker in to hide, to putting the Stalker in to a pseudo hide, that only worked against your target. Before the nerf, Placate his you from everyone.

 

When players came to the forums to nerf herd, the Devs told them that Stalkers were not going to be changed, they were working as intended. Later, the Devs caved in and nerfed Placate. That change still exists today in its original form.

 

So there were several changes made because of PvP. Just wanted to get that out there, not trying to step on toes, just felt like it was relevant to the conversation.

[ShardWarrior]

Might I suggest making a separate thread for discussing PvP?  All of the discussion about it here is detracting from the topic at hand and I would hope that focus can remain on the topic at hand.

[macskull]

6 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

Travel Suppression in it's current form was entirely due to PvP. It's the only one I can remember for certain. It was pretty much to stop ATs with very high damage (Blappers and Stalkers mostly) attacks from jumping past you doing a ton of damage and being out of range before you can respond. If you didn't see what took most of your health in one shot, and cannot target them because they are no longer in range you cannot respond (well apart from whining on the forums about broken travel powers).

 

If it were a PvE change as you seem to think then it's totally failed. You can still kite with impunity (if the mob doesn't leash). You can still pull by attacking and hiding in cover. Changes to address this in PvE do exist but would have little affect on PvP. (Melee mobs gettting ranged attacks, originally some purely melee mobs had no ranged attack. -Fly in attacks from protazoans, they had ranged attacks but if you had fly you could pretty much ignore their melee attacks.)

What if I told you that there is no travel suppression in PvP? Go on, look for yourself, it doesn't exist.

[ShardWarrior]

What does travel suppression have to do with a replacement for the enterbasefrompasscode command?  Again, please - if you would to discuss PvP related topics, please make a separate thread so this one can remain on topic. 

[macskull]

10 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

What does travel suppression have to do with a replacement for the enterbasefrompasscode command?  Again, please - if you would to discuss PvP related topics, please make a separate thread so this one can remain on topic. 

This is tangential to the thread's topic. The entire enterbasefrompasscode fiasco exploded because there are some very vocal people on here who insist it is now getting removed for PvP reasons when this isn't the case. The very vocal group of posters who keep blaming PvP and PvPers for taking away their toys are getting kind of old.

[justicebeliever]

31 minutes ago, macskull said:

This is tangential to the thread's topic. The entire enterbasefrompasscode fiasco exploded because there are some very vocal people on here who insist it is now getting removed for PvP reasons when this isn't the case. The very vocal group of posters who keep blaming PvP and PvPers for taking away their toys are getting kind of old.

It is old, and it always makes me sad to see it.  PvP is the reason it was brought to the communities attention that this command was going to be leaving us (it was a PvP thread where HC first spoke about the fact it was being removed), so I suppose some people are going to hold onto that bone no matter what you say, even though the GM's were clear that this was going to be going away anyway.

 

@ShardWarriorI agree this is distracting from the thread, but honestly, what's left to be accomplished here?  The command is going away, it's going to be replaced by some unknown improvements to the Base Teleporter at the same time.  No discussion here will change either of those 2 facts I believe...just my opinion.

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

It is old, and it always makes me sad to see it.  PvP is the reason it was brought to the communities attention that this command was going to be leaving us (it was a PvP thread where HC first spoke about the fact it was being removed), so I suppose some people are going to hold onto that bone no matter what you say, even though the GM's were clear that this was going to be going away anyway.

 

@ShardWarriorI agree this is distracting from the thread, but honestly, what's left to be accomplished here?  The command is going away, it's going to be replaced by some unknown improvements to the Base Teleporter at the same time.  No discussion here will change either of those 2 facts I believe...just my opinion.

Honestly, if the Devs already have their minds made up and nothing people say here will change that, we should probably have this thread closed, as the debates I am reading here are pointless and serve to change nothing. Beating a dead horse won't make it more dead.  😄

[macskull]

7 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

It is old, and it always makes me sad to see it.  PvP is the reason it was brought to the communities attention that this command was going to be leaving us (it was a PvP thread where HC first spoke about the fact it was being removed), so I suppose some people are going to hold onto that bone no matter what you say, even though the GM's were clear that this was going to be going away anyway.

Yeah, that was my thread. I posted it, it didn't get any replies the first day or two, and then I came back after a weekend away to see it had exploded into a "blame PvPers" thread. Another example is the PvP accolades thread where I spent page after page trying to reason with people who either couldn't be or didn't want to be reasoned with.

[justicebeliever]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Honestly, if the Devs already have their minds made up and nothing people say here will change that, we should probably have this thread closed, as the debates I am reading here are pointless and serve to change nothing. Beating a dead horse won't make it more dead.  😄

It's dead now.  I believe the conversations here kept if it from becoming, "this command is going away in the next build, just deal with it" and instead turned it into, "this command is going away as soon as we can buff the Base Transporter to make it better, because clearly you (the community) have shown that it's very valuable to you".  So the thread had a lot of value, but I just think it's been squeezed for all the juice it's worth at this point.

[ShardWarrior]

43 minutes ago, macskull said:

This is tangential to the thread's topic. The entire enterbasefrompasscode fiasco exploded because there are some very vocal people on here who insist it is now getting removed for PvP reasons when this isn't the case. The very vocal group of posters who keep blaming PvP and PvPers for taking away their toys are getting kind of old.

Ok and the Devs provided (repeatedly) the reasons why this is going away and that PvP isn't the sole reason this is getting removed.  Travel suppression has nothing to do with any of it and quite clear removing the command is not a nerf to anything as it's a GM only command.  We're not meant to have it in the first place. 

 

11 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

@ShardWarriorI agree this is distracting from the thread, but honestly, what's left to be accomplished here?  The command is going away, it's going to be replaced by some unknown improvements to the Base Teleporter at the same time.  No discussion here will change either of those 2 facts I believe...just my opinion.

Not sure anyone is suggesting the slashcommand should be kept.  The thread should be for discussing ideas for what to replace it with IMO.

[srmalloy]

18 hours ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

Regen was performing far above the curve for a vast majority of early CoH history. Remember, the curve back then was a lot lower then it was/is now. At no point in Regen's history was it actually nerfed solely because of a PvP reason. Yes, PvPers complained about Regen, more vocally then PvE'rs, but that's a side effect of powerful sets being far more obvious in a competitive setting then in a casual one like PvE.

The actual statement made by the devs as the reason for reworking Regen was that their evaluation on their internal test server showed that a Claws/Regen Scrapper (this was back when all you had were SOs) could solo missions easily at +4/x8 -- a declaration that the players called bullshit on. Some time after the changes had been made, it was leaked that the internal test server did not have the 'purple patch' applied to it, so this 'godlike' Claws/Regen Scrapper was hitting (without inspirations) about ten times as often and for ten times the damage (and being much hit less often for much less damage) as it would have been on the live servers. Nevertheless, the changes stayed.

[QuiJon]

16 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

That 2 feet was a 40% buff in range, that is absolutely significant. 

I didn't say it was unwelcome but I said that the mechanics of how an NPC agros and attacks makes it less significant to have a wider melee range for PVE then it does for PVP. I mean when I can pile myself in mobs that just huddle around me attacking without quitting they are going to get killed eventually by my attacks be it a 5 foor or 10 range or whatever. If fact I could also argue that with targeting caps on the powers that in many cases those extra 2 feet are enemies that would fall outside of that cap anyway and have to wait their turn to die. All I am saying is that the distance increase was of more benefit to PVP and likely would not have come about if not for it, and people would likely have not cared because it was not something pvers complained about.

[srmalloy]

22 hours ago, macskull said:

My point was that people are quick to blame PvP for things getting nerfed when in reality there were PvE reasons - to use your Regeneration example, old-style toggle IH meant that a Regen Scrapper was literally unkillable if they survived an alpha strike. Saying things like that got nerfed for PvP is disingenuous at best and downright wrong at worst.

The initial statement from the devs was "We won't make PvE changes for PvP reasons"; this became "We won't make PvE changes for purely PvP reasons", then became "We'll try not to make PvE changes for PvP reasons", and then they stopped explaining whether a given change was being made for PvE or PvP reasons.

 

However, /Regen Scrappers were not "literally unkillable if they survived an alpha strike"; a Regen Scrapper was unkillable if they could reduce the incoming damage to below their regeneration rate before they ran out of hit points. Jump into too big a spawn, or with mobs too many levels higher, or with abilities that slowed or stopped you from thinning the herd, and you ate pavement like any other character. But because Regen applied its huge healing rate to each attack over and over and over again, once you got ahead of the curve, you'd be fully healed at the end of the fight, where both Resistance- and Defense-based sets would be needing to heal up before the next spawn. The trick you had to learn was to judge where that line was -- and because more people on your team meant that you weren't catching all the incoming damage, that pushed the bar over until the biggest spawns couldn't focus enough on you to take you down, and alphas became your biggest worry.

[srmalloy]

14 hours ago, macskull said:

• Travel Suppression - being able to kite NPCs with zero risk to yourself because you're out of range of their attacks by the time they aggro on you is obviously not a balanced mechanic. Nevermind that you can completely get around travel suppression by having a Kin on your team. Like... the idea that travel suppression was put in because of PvP is laughable.

Actually, because it occurs server side, the trick of queueing up an attack and zipping past your target doesn't help you in PvE -- mobs aggro on you instantly when you come in range and the attack triggers, and because of the mechanics where the success of the attack is determined when the animation starts, you can be well away and still eat the return fire from the aggro you got. Where you benefit is by being out of range for their next attack, so they have to chase you to get in range. Before all mobs were given a ranged attack, this meant that there were mobs where, with the right spawn makeup, you could kite a spawn of a dozen mobs and only have three or four be in melee range to hit you as you zoomed by,cutting down on your return fire. With every mob having a ranged attack now, you can no longer kite with impunity, so the original PvE justification is gone. Kiting another player in PvP, though, worked just fine; if they didn't know you were there and queued up an attack (which would go off automatically when you came in range), you could kite them and be out of range before they could react.

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

Actually, because it occurs server side, the trick of queueing up an attack and zipping past your target doesn't help you in PvE -- mobs aggro on you instantly when you come in range and the attack triggers, and because of the mechanics where the success of the attack is determined when the animation starts, you can be well away and still eat the return fire from the aggro you got. Where you benefit is by being out of range for their next attack, so they have to chase you to get in range. Before all mobs were given a ranged attack, this meant that there were mobs where, with the right spawn makeup, you could kite a spawn of a dozen mobs and only have three or four be in melee range to hit you as you zoomed by,cutting down on your return fire. With every mob having a ranged attack now, you can no longer kite with impunity, so the original PvE justification is gone. Kiting another player in PvP, though, worked just fine; if they didn't know you were there and queued up an attack (which would go off automatically when you came in range), you could kite them and be out of range before they could react.

I feel like this was already addressed by this:

 

3 hours ago, macskull said:

What if I told you that there is no travel suppression in PvP? Go on, look for yourself, it doesn't exist.

 

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

It's dead now.  I believe the conversations here kept if it from becoming, "this command is going away in the next build, just deal with it" and instead turned it into, "this command is going away as soon as we can buff the Base Transporter to make it better, because clearly you (the community) have shown that it's very valuable to you".  So the thread had a lot of value, but I just think it's been squeezed for all the juice it's worth at this point.

I agree. I think we should all stop while we are still ahead.

[Megajoule]

I advised that back when the thread started, but was told that there was value in having discussion, even though the decision had already been made and was not, itself, up for debate.

I still disagree, and hey, look where we are.

[Epsilon Assassin]

22 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

Looking bad, go for it. I don't mind looking bad. (And you can look through my other posts (on other threads) and see that if I'm shown to be wrong I'll admit it). And frankly while I'd love the world to love me, if they don't it's their loss. I really don't much care how someone at odds with my PoV who I have never met/played with sees me, and I certainly won't be losing any sleep over it.

 

That's fine, I simply felt the duty to point out that you weren't really fooling anyone by making objectively false statements, then when called on them later, playing the sarcasm card. As long as that got across (Which it apparently did), then the statement achieved its intended goal. 

 

22 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

You have yet to prove my opinion wrong, I'm not sure you can. You can assert that things I believe to be true are in fact untrue and if I present facts you can show them to be untrue. But to show me that my opinion is wrong you would have to change my opinion. And frankly insulting me and calling me out for things I haven't in fact done isn't going to do the job.

I have though. You base your opinions on an objectively false premise. No one is insulting you, but at the same time, you're making assertions contradicted by reality and then saying "I don't think they're wrong, so they're not wrong". 

 

22 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

 

That said the only person around here that I can see flinging (potential) insults at groups is you:

And the only reason you see that, or think that, is because I disagreed with you. Which is fine, you're entitled to your opinion. 

 

22 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

 

 

And I'd be quite happy if the changes also included a short cool down (like 5 mins) and/or a short interrupt. It's the ability to jump to a specific base with the passcode that I don't want removed.

When this gets fixed it will hopefully be an example of a dev listening to the community to affect a change that doesn't penalise those who aren't abusing something but prevents said abuse. Who actually reported the abuse and what play styles they enjoy should be immaterial.

 

And we can agree with that, and state it all, without randomly tossing mud on a community you aren't a part of, know next to nothing about and has nothing to do with this issue. I never took issue with this, just your objectively inaccurate portrayal of the PvP community as the cause of all your ills. It's objectively and demonstrably wrong, even if you don't agree with that statement. 

 

Now, as this discourse has run it's course with you specifically saying you don't agree with the common reality that we all share, I'll bow out. We can't have meaningful and constructive conversation if you consider reality to be an opinion. Have a nice night.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Epsilon Assassin