Overwhelming Force proc. Make this a global effect.

[MunkiLord]

20 hours ago, Vayek2 said:

which means you aren't just discussing, you are arguing to take away the choices of others because it inconveniences you in some way, when alternatives to keep the way you want are plentiful. Its not a discussion at that point, just an argument.

Rathulfr isn't arguing to take choices away, as this suggestion is not currently a choice. So if nothing changes, then nothing has been lost. It's an important distinction.

[Vanden]

19 minutes ago, William Valence said:

I did that because I didn't think there was a big enough difference between Partial Core Revamp and Core Paragon. May have been unneeded, but it was intentional to have a power bump from the Revamp to paragon.

Well you probably overdid it, because even without the abnormally large Range enhancement, the Alpha as you proposed it would probably supplant Musculature as the default "I have no particular weaknesses I need Alpha to solve" pick.

[Black Zot]

9 minutes ago, William Valence said:

I'm sure you have a reason to say this, but I can't possibly come up with a way to have this sentence make sense. Can you please try to rephrase? How is it taxing every power in the build? Am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?

 

Presently, every problematic power in your build costs one slot to make it not hose your team, up to a max of 6 (1 OF proc plus 5 SA procs being the max available).  That's up to 6 powers that are going to be flatly weaker than their counterparts in other sets because they're down an enhancement slot. 

 

Your Alpha idea instead fixes the powers in question at the cost of denying EVERY power an Alpha enhancement they would otherwise have.  So instead of short-slotting half a dozen powers, you're now short-slotting twenty-plus powers.  That is almost petless-Mastermind-tier build-gimping.

 

I dunno how much more plainly I can spell this out.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Black Zot said:

Presently, every problematic power in your build costs one slot to make it not hose your team, up to a max of 6 (1 OF proc plus 5 SA procs being the max available).  That's up to 6 powers that are going to be flatly weaker than their counterparts in other sets because they're down an enhancement slot. 

 

Your Alpha idea instead fixes the powers in question at the cost of denying EVERY power an Alpha enhancement they would otherwise have.  So instead of short-slotting half a dozen powers, you're now short-slotting twenty-plus powers.  That is almost petless-Mastermind-tier build-gimping.

 

I dunno how much more plainly I can spell this out.

Builds that can make good use of every bonus an Alpha gives are very much the exception, not the rule. Most characters with a higher-tier Alpha slotted have at least one aspect of that alpha that's of no use to them.

[William Valence]

15 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

Your Alpha idea instead fixes the powers in question at the cost of denying EVERY power an Alpha enhancement they would otherwise have.  So instead of short-slotting half a dozen powers, you're now short-slotting twenty-plus powers.  That is almost petless-Mastermind-tier build-gimping.

What enhancement do you think is being traded for the KB->KD?

 

Seriously, like @Vanden said, it's a very powerful slot just by it's own right. Going by the template of other Alphas, it's traded a soft control for the KB->KD intentionally. How is not having a Sleep, Slow, or Fear enhancement short-slotting twenty-plus powers?

 

Honestly if you think this slot is Petless-MM tier gimping I think you don't have proper perspective on effect balance.

[Rathulfr]

3 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

Note that the OF proc affecting the whole character is presently being tested on Justin; that's what got this thread started.  That wouldn't happen if the devs thought KB->KD should cost slots from every single affected power.

 

Facts are facts.  KB is the worst secondary effect for an offensive set bar none, and sets that "feature" it offer nothing to make up for disrupting the entire team every time the player pushes a button.  Your suggested alternative to taxing every knockback power a slot to make it usable in a team environment is to essentially tax EVERY POWER IN THE PLAYER'S BUILD.

First: Where was this change announced officially?  This thread was the first I heard of it.

 

Second: Your facts are not "facts".  It is your opinion that KB is the worst secondary effect.  It is my opinion that KB is a fun and useful secondary effect.  Facts are indisputable: opinions are not.

 

The facts are these: CoH was designed with a few power sets that feature knockback as an intentional secondary effect.  If the devs had wanted to change these to knockdown, they would have.  Instead, they opted to leave them as is, to avoid fundamentally altering the experiences of those who choose to play them.  Those who don't like knockback sets can play other sets, and the devs even accommodated that by creating new sets with knockdown instead.

 

The Homecoming team is welcome to change that if they wish, but I don't have to like it.  If it turns out that that I have to give up 4 points of KB protection to keep my build, I will.  It won't kill me, and it's a small price to pay.  It's not the end of the world.

 

But I'm not being unreasonable to express my opinion on this subject, register my disagreement, and offer my feedback.  Thanks for the lively discussion.

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

First: Where was this change announced officially?  This thread was the first I heard of it.

 

Second: Your facts are not "facts".  It is your opinion that KB is the worst secondary effect.  It is my opinion that KB is a fun and useful secondary effect.  Facts are indisputable: opinions are not.

 

The facts are these: CoH was designed with a few power sets that feature knockback as an intentional secondary effect.  If the devs had wanted to change these to knockdown, they would have.  Instead, they opted to leave them as is, to avoid fundamentally altering the experiences of those who choose to play them.  Those who don't like knockback sets can play other sets, and the devs even accommodated that by creating new sets with knockdown instead.

 

The Homecoming team is welcome to change that if they wish, but I don't have to like it.  If it turns out that that I have to give up 4 points of KB protection to keep my build, I will.  It won't kill me, and it's a small price to pay.  It's not the end of the world.

 

But I'm not being unreasonable to express my opinion on this subject, register my disagreement, and offer my feedback.  Thanks for the lively discussion.

 

While I will be the first one to slot a universal KB-KD IO, it will not bother me in the slightest if things remain as they are.

 

You guys play your KB game, some of us will play the KD game and everyone has fun.

[esotericist]

8 hours ago, Black Zot said:

Note that the OF proc affecting the whole character is presently being tested on Justin; that's what got this thread started.  That wouldn't happen if the devs thought KB->KD should cost slots from every single affected power.

 

 

I've seen two people claim in this thread that this change is being tested on Justin, but I can find no documentation that backs this claim. I've searched carefully through the beta forum, and I can find no mention of this in any of the dev posts, nor can I even find any discussion of it in any of the threads in the beta forum.

 

If this is truly being tested, where is this stated?

[kelly Rocket]

1 hour ago, esotericist said:

 

I've seen two people claim in this thread that this change is being tested on Justin, but I can find no documentation that backs this claim. I've searched carefully through the beta forum, and I can find no mention of this in any of the dev posts, nor can I even find any discussion of it in any of the threads in the beta forum.

 

If this is truly being tested, where is this stated?

There are a lot of things in testing on Justin that haven't really had any official announcements, like the /Devices changes. I can't guarantee it's actually the case, but people I hang out with discussing character builds all day on Discord have told me that the OF proc is global on Justin. And I don't see how they have any incentive to lie to me about it. Haven't checked myself, but it would be easy to do for someone less lazy than me.

 

But yeah, in general I have the impression that HC doesn't bother to tell us before pushing things to Justin to see if they work.

Edited August 30, 2019 by kelly Rocket

[Rathulfr]

I just logged on to my Energy/WP Sentinel on Justin, where I have OF 6-slotted, and I can confirm that the KB2KD IO is not a global.  I went to PI, found groups of even-con mobs, and knocked 'em all over the zone with every attack except Explosive Blast.  I even completely deleted all of my OF IOs, and 6-slotted a newly-generated set to make sure I got a "fresh" batch.

 

(edit) Just to make double-extra-secret-sure, I created a whole new Energy Blaster from scratch, leveled and equipped him with OF 6-slotted, and re-tested in PI.  Same results: OF KB2KD is not global.

 

(edit-edit) See @Leandro's post below.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Leandro]

On 8/29/2019 at 7:26 PM, Black Zot said:

Note that the OF proc affecting the whole character is presently being tested on Justin; that's what got this thread started.  That wouldn't happen if the devs thought KB->KD should cost slots from every single affected power.

This is not true. I don't know where you heard of it, but no such thing is being tested or even being considered.

[Chance Jackson]

On 8/28/2019 at 2:13 PM, kelly Rocket said:

Already in testing on Justin.

I had no idea, I hope it makes it to live!

[Rathulfr]

15 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

I had no idea, I hope it makes it to live!

See @Leandro's post above.

[Rathulfr]

56 minutes ago, Leandro said:

This is not true. I don't know where you heard of it, but no such thing is being tested or even being considered.

Thanks for clearing that up, @Leandro, I appreciate it!

 

That said, there's definitely been a lot of discussion and suggestions about KB-to-KD conversion options.  Are you guys considering anything beyond the KB2KD IOs in Overwhelming Force and Sudden Acceleration?  If so, would you be comfortable telling us about them, or at least, telling us about what you think about the issue, in general?  Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[Chance Jackson]

On 8/28/2019 at 4:46 PM, Cix said:

I don't like the all-or-nothing approach to KB>KD that keeps coming up here.  For example, my /Storm Mastermind really likes knockback in Gale and Hurricane, but likes it less in Tornado.  If knockback is to become a toggle or universal effect of a set, I don't get to choose.  I hope that these situations are taken into account when decisions are made.

 

On 8/28/2019 at 7:27 PM, esotericist said:

I think the fact overwhelming force can be used to add knockdown to a power that previously didn't have it is an important thing to emphasize.

 

Someone might want to be using it to add KD to a power without losing the ability to have knockback on the rest of their character.

 

On 8/28/2019 at 8:28 PM, Vanden said:

Unless, like Rathulfr said, you six-slotted OF to get the KB protection but don't want every attack you have to become knockdown.

Make the global effect only apply if you slot the io in a kb power?

On 8/29/2019 at 2:04 AM, William Valence said:

Fuck it, make it an Alpha slot.

 

People want the reduce their slot investment, well that's one of the primary purposes of the Alpha slot.

 

*Restraint Alpha Boost*

	Boost	Core boost	Radial Boost	Total core revamp	Partial Core Revamp	Partial Radial Revamp	Total Radial revamp	Core Paragon	Radial Paragon
Primary	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD	KB ->KD
Secondary	x	Dam 33%	Range 20%	Damage 45% Range 10%	Range 33% Damage 16.5%	Damage 33% Range 10%	Range 20% Damage 16.5%	Damage 45% Range 33%	Damage 33% Range 20%
Tertiary	x	x	x	x	x	-Tohit 20%	EndMod 33%	x	-Tohit 20% EndMod 33% Disorient 33%
ED Bypass	x	1/3	1/3	1/2	1/2	1/2	1/2	2/3	2/3

 

 

I'd support this too. 

[Weylin]

Couldn't this be a Null the Gull setting? Or an inherent toggle power?

Personally the only reason I want KB KD conversion is as an etiquette while playing as a team, since KB is disruptive to the tanks attempts to keep mobs grouped close together

[Bossk_Hogg]

4 hours ago, Weylin said:

Couldn't this be a Null the Gull setting? Or an inherent toggle power?

Personally the only reason I want KB KD conversion is as an etiquette while playing as a team, since KB is disruptive to the tanks attempts to keep mobs grouped close together

It's actually disruptive to everyone. You line up a rain of arrows and some dumbass peacebringer runs in to do weak damage and scatter everything.  You have mobs nicely clumped in your debuff toggles and oopsie, some defender with energy blast decides what they really need is to be thrown in all directions. Because what I really want is a 2/3 health spawn that is no longer debuffed and has to be gathered again or killed single target.

[MunkiLord]

I think if a setting was added to Null the Gull, then we should also have the option of adding KB to all our powers. Or at the very least the option to turn knockdown to knockback. 

[Weylin]

KB is general is just a really disruptive mechanic for your whole team.

I only use it in solo play.

 

Also I'm pretty embarrassed that half my robotics damage has random KB tied to it, so things just get tossed off edges at random...

[Leandro]

6 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

That said, there's definitely been a lot of discussion and suggestions about KB-to-KD conversion options.  Are you guys considering anything beyond the KB2KD IOs in Overwhelming Force and Sudden Acceleration?  If so, would you be comfortable telling us about them, or at least, telling us about what you think about the issue, in general?

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other, but various powers devs over the years have told me that turning all KB to KD would have balance considerations, and they weren't happy when I added the non-unique Sudden Acceleration proc, although the expense (in slots) seems to be enough of a compromise. I'm not a powers person so I defer to their judgement. I know Powerhouse has some plans to make KB something that can be better managed (he did something with the combination of immobilizes and knockback on controller primaries) but I don't know the specifics at this time.

[Weylin]

what are the balance considerations btw?

I noticed that KB can't be "spammed" like KD can be, mobs seem to gain a temporary immunity to it, or at least a ragdoll immunity.

On the other hand I often see mobs get completely stunlocked with KD.

 

The problem really is that KB is utterly disruptive in teams and does nothing but cause complications.

Robotics for example? Almost everything has random proc KB in it, and as a result, enemies on catwalks WILL go flying off, and your bots WILL inevitably jump down after them despite your best command spamming, and it just goes to hell from there.

[kelly Rocket]

In my opinion, most of the powers and sets that have knockback are actually weaker than others in terms of damage, because the original devs counted knockback as a beneficial effect and reduced damage accordingly (Much as they did with other actually beneficial effects like -ToHit).

 

Energy Blast and the Peacebringer powers for instance are significantly below average in damage.

 

There are only a few specific outlier powers which become balance issues with knockback conversion, and they're *already* problematic, even if all we had was the unique Overwhelming Force piece. Bonfire is insanely strong, for instance.

 

But giving everyone an inherent toggle for KB->KD conversion wouldn't change that picture noticeably.

Edited September 1, 2019 by kelly Rocket

[Vanden]

50 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

In my opinion, most of the powers and sets that have knockback are actually weaker than others in terms of damage, because the original devs counted knockback as a beneficial effect and reduced damage accordingly (Much as they did with other actually beneficial effects like -ToHit).

That's not how the devs (either Live or current) balanced powers. Powers don't get reduced damage in exchange for secondary effects.

[kelly Rocket]

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

That's not how the devs (either Live or current) balanced powers. Powers don't get reduced damage in exchange for secondary effects.

It's absolutely how Cryptic did it in the very dawn of the game, when they first made it.

[Captain Powerhouse]

That's not accurate. They balanced power damage and secondary effects independently. Early on they never considered the impact of cast time, but the damage/recharge formula was in place since launch and has never been revised.

 

The only time where a secondary effect impacted damage, was when the secondary effect itself was simply more damage.

 

How they valued secondary effects, though, was very arbitrary. If anything, IMO, they undervalued the mitigation capabilities of knockdown and knockback, the effect often is drastically superior at locking down bosses and crowds than holds and stuns (and I mean secondary effect hold and stuns, not the hold or stuns in powers that are dedicated crowd control powers.)