macskull

There is more potential to get people into the zones. Rewards for engaging in PvP would be a good start and it doesn't take any mechanics changes to make that happen, but in reality unless someone is already interested in PvP in the first place there is nothing that is going to get them to start doing it and stick with it. The biggest barriers to new players entering PvP are: PvP functions almost completely differently from PvE so there's a relatively steep learning curve, especially if you don't understand the game mechanics well PvP opponents tend to be more powerful, smarter, and have access to a wider array of powers than anything you'd see in PvE Most people don't handle defeat well and after dying a handful of times will decide they hate PvP and PvPers are a bunch of jerks Some of the Issue 13 PvP changes were good, some were well-intentioned but poorly implemented, and others just plain sucked. The problem with those changes was that they were designed to draw new players into PvP by making it more accessible to the casual player but for the most part those changes failed to take any of those three items I listed into account so what ended up happening was you got almost no new players interested but lost a large portion of the established player base. If you're going to make further mechanics changes, they should not be designed with the primary objective of getting new players involved because there's no guarantee that will happen and unless you're making those changes with the input of people that actually do PvP, you're likely to alienate those players as well.

In an effort to keep things constructive and ensure there's some discussion here, I'll offer the following points which I've said here and elsewhere when this sort of discussion comes up: Most of the discussions, suggestions, and arguments here are revolving around team-based arena PvP and there's not so much discussion about zone PvP or duels because by their very nature those are pretty much impossible to balance on a broad scale. Dueling in this game has always been very rock/paper/scissors, and some melee builds were incredibly popular for dueling (hello, Ice/Energy Tankers and Spines/Regen Scrappers). Zone PvP is usually an "anything goes" environment and it's very rare that both sides are evenly balanced numbers-wise (which is really why I wish Warburg was more active, because at least that way anyone not on your team is fair game). In the case of team PvP in a game where movement is as important as it is, naturally you want the ability to deal a large amount of damage to a single target within a very short period of time (before they can phase/break line of sight/get healed) and ranged ATs are (usually) the best way to do this because they don't have to be in melee range to deal their damage. It's also important to note that because PvP is so vastly different than PvE (and this was true even before the PvP overhaul in Issue 13) the defined "roles" an AT has in PvE might be very different or simply nonexistent in PvP. Most melee ATs are more than capable of putting out solid amounts of damage in melee range, and some can even put out good ranged damage, but they can't do it as consistently or as quickly as a ranged AT can. The game already has several tools to help melee players close the gap to ranged ATs (web grenades and a stackable 75% range debuff from taunt are the two major ones) but in reality you can't expect a character who has much higher survivability than a ranged AT to also be able to consistently put out as much damage as a ranged AT. To your point re: ranged ATs being "damage soaking machines," you can take a look at the first match in the linked video to see just how quickly ranged ATs explode when targeted versus how long it took for that Tanker to go down the one time he was targeted.

I'll take "things that are highly unlikely" for 400, Alex.

No, he wasn't using an autoclicker, he's using binds to execute multiple commands with one button press which is functionality that's built into the game without any external programs.

I think I've run into other players in zone while trying to get those explore/history badges one time since I came back to Homecoming and I've done those accolades dozens of times. PvP zones that aren't Recluse's Victory on Indomitable are functionally PvE zones already since no one goes into them.

You can use mouse software to execute macros or binds but you can't make mouse software do things the game doesn't allow. In my case I have binds/macros ingame for combining and eating reds and my mouse software just translates extra mouse buttons into a keyboard combination I specify (for example I might have my 9th mouse button send "shift+numpad1" to my computer and the game reads "shift+numpad1" as "combine anything you can into reds." I'm not doing anything the game wouldn't already let me do.

In the entire history of this game there has only ever been one power or game mechanic nerfed in PvE for solely PvP reasons and I'm willing to bet 99% of players don't know what it is. I don't think any serious PvPer is going to advocate for mandatory PvP because we realize that wouldn't sit well with anyone. PvE incentives that get people into PvP zones can be nice (badges, temp powers, etc.) but no one is arguing for making those things mandatory in PvE. Also, for what it's worth, melee attack range going from 5 feet to 7 feet and Scrapper/Brute/Tanker taunt doing -range were both PvP buffs that were also applied to PvE.

All Destiny powers stack by design.

Hot's post was sarcasm, FYI.

I think making movement slows worthwhile again helps in the travel suppression department. Issue 13's travel suppression system was just plain awful. The base teleporting thing is going to get removed eventually, it's just a matter of when... but it's yet another reason I don't spend much of my PvP time in zones.

Don't forget that there's a 75% range debuff on the target affected by Confront. Not as useful as the AoE version of the same that Tankers and Brutes get, but it's still something.

I like this idea.

M3z literally said "I'm not saying if you haven't played comp don't voice your opinion" and I didn't smear, name-call, or shout you down, I simply pointed out that your proposed solutions fixed nonexistent problems while breaking everything else. We do want feedback and ideas from those who don't participate but the reality is that unless there are tangible rewards for PvP, no amount of mechanics changes are going to get significant numbers of new players involved. We've been fortunate to get some new or returning players into PvP again through weekly kickballs so the PvP population isn't exactly hurting for people. We also understand that change is going to happen at some point - that's our hope, anyways, but at least we are hoping that the change is coming from people who understand the nuances of the system instead of people who cry foul when a Stalker kills them while they're getting pillboxes in RV.

I'm going to argue those topics, of course, because 1) they're not good ideas and 2) are proposed solutions to nonexistent problems. While it's true that the whole point of this discussion is to allow people to voice their suggestions, it is a discussion and not just "list things you think are wrong." I don't know what PvP experience you have but if you're trying to use someone multiboxing with a buffbot sitting in their side's base as justification for removing ally buffs I'm guessing it isn't much. So, I guess I'll go back to that list again: Like I said, removing ally buffs would completely invalidate most team play and would make less powersets and ATs viable which is the opposite of what we are trying to make happen. Diminishing returns already reduces the effectiveness of some ally buffs so I suppose in that sense you already have your wish, although completely removing the role of support characters from the game because someone might park an Emp or something in their base doesn't really make much sense. It used to be that being a good Stalker in PvP was hard because most of your damage was in Assassin's Strike and getting that off on a moving target was difficult, but currently there are some tier 8/9 powers that do as much or more damage than AS without the interrupt period. Fix damage for those major offenders (hello, Greater Psi Blade and Crushing Uppercut) and you'll see less people on Stalkers, I'm sure. Removing all forms of stealth from PvP doesn't make sense because then you just turn a Stalker into a squishier Scrapper that can't crit unless the target is held or slept (the scaling crit rates for Stalkers don't exist in PvP). Besides, to a competent player, a Stalker is more an annoyance than a threat and by removing stealth that Stalker goes from being an annoyance to being a joke. I think the only thing that's capable of taking down a 1606hp character in that many hits is a Stalker who gets off AS + a followup crit but honestly if their target is standing still long enough for the entire interrupt period of AS and then the followup the Stalker probably deserves that kill. Most other things that can put out large amounts of burst damage can't time it tightly enough to drop a target without that target being able to react, or those attacks are on such a long cooldown that they're unable to maintain that damage. If you've ever tried to engage someone who is playing to survive, you will not be able to kill them one-on-one with damage spam alone. I don't think anyone here's been doing any crying. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this. Of course, after having typed that out, I realize that your post was probably satire but it's really hard to tell based off your post history whether you're either actually calling for nerfs or are just a very dedicated troll. TL;DR/EDIT: Feedback and suggestions are good. Discussions are good. Some discussions from people who don't PvP a lot are good and some aren't, but the PvP community is very wary of a dev team making changes based on suggestions and inputs from people who barely even use the system because the last time that happened we got Issue 13.

You can sometimes (not always) make a character at least functional in a PvP environment but you're almost certainly going to have to use a second build to do so. It's also a little harder to do that when most people who are in a PvP zone are there specifically for the PvP and have dedicated characters for it. It's also important to note that player skill is still pretty relevant in PvP and someone who is experienced will do better on an off-meta build than a new player on an FotM build. That being said, it's extremely easy to level/IO/accolade a new character right now so if someone is really curious about PvP they may find their best shot at figuring out the system is to roll a new character for it since you might as well start with something more forgiving. Even then, a player new to PvP is going to get their ass kicked over and over and over until they start to get a grasp of the mechanics and start to ask questions. It is kind of unfortunate that most players' experience with PvP is limited to one or two times in a PvP zone because zone PvP is almost never balanced and the zones tend to be frequented by some of the most bottom-of-the-barrel PvPers (at least in terms of attitude). We are still looking at ways to restore some of the diversity that was lost with the Issue 13 changes but I don't think it'll ever come to a point where every powerset combination is going to be good or even okay in PvP for the same reasons I mentioned in my last post.

I'll also post in here and try to summarize some of what's been discussed in the Discord channel so far: Implement the new arena maps the PvP community voted on last summer/fall (priority) Arena bugfixes (priority) Fix phase shift suppressing while mezzed (priority) Remove/lessen penalty for Absorb Pain/Share Pain (priority) Add suppression for taunt/-jump/-fly (priority) Make movement slows effective again Overhaul the mez system Adjust DR curves to make ally def/res buffs useful MMs could probably use some help

So you're suggesting that ally buffs should have no function in PvP? This would completely invalidate any semblance of team play. The point of diminishing returns as currently implemented was to prevent insane levels of external buffs and it did that to a point but the current DR values need tweaking. With the exception of Stalkers (1143 ft) and Soldiers/Widows (857.25 ft), every AT has a PvP stealth cap of 571.5 ft. Every AT's base perception is 500 ft and perception caps at 1153 ft (except for Soldiers/Widows which cap at 1260.6 ft). PvP builds have multiple sources of perception to the point where non-Soldier/Widow/Stalker stealth is essentially nonexistent. Removing invis/stealth breaks Stalkers, Banes, and Night Widows. I'm assuming the source of the "remove stealth" complaint comes from frustrating experiences with Stalkers but there are plenty of ways to deal with them while not removing the purpose of the entire class. 3 or 4 hits doesn't usually drop anybody - time to kill is much longer than it was pre-I13 and having teammates can help keep that the case. I understand how frustrating it is to be the only person in a PvP zone against a group of players on the other side but in situations like that you either play it smart and try and pick one off before getting out of there, call for more help and even the sides out, or leave until things are more balanced. I'll address a few things here - short of a compelling rewards system it doesn't matter how good the mechanics in PvP are, you're not going to attract significant numbers of new players. PvP is an entirely different beast than PvE and people that come into a PvP environment from the easymode that is PvE are usually surprised when they find out their character isn't nearly as good as they thought it would be. At the same time, PvPers understand that there's a limited amount of developer time and resources so we're trying to be realistic about what we ask for and realize that complete overhauls of systems are unlikely at any point in the near future. One complaint I tend to see from non-PvPers is how only certain builds are viable in PvP and there is some truth to that but... if you are trying to accomplish a certain task and you want to do well at it, you pick the tools that make the job easiest. If I'm trying to build a character that can run fire farms on the asteroid in 3 minutes I'm not going to complain that a Sonic/Ice Sentinel can't do it, or if I'm trying to build a GM/AV-soloing machine I'm not going to complain that an FF/AR Defender can't do it, because I understand those builds don't offer what I need to get the job done. Likewise, PvP is a fast-paced environment against thinking opponents with a wide variety of powers at their disposal and as such your goal is to defeat another player as quickly as possible which means you will tend to favor sets that put out large amounts of single-target burst damage. Your "core philosophy" isn't that far off of what actually happens in-game, believe it or not. Squishier ranged ATs are usually able to deal more damage faster but at the same time they die quicker. Melee ATs are more survivable but tend to have a harder time taking down targets. You have to be very careful when coming up with major systematic changes in an attempt at "balance" or to draw in new players - the Issue 13 changes attempted to rebalance PvP but also to make PvP more accommodating to new players but in reality all that happened was much of the group of experienced PvPers quit the game and very few new players actually got into it.

While that seems to be the way everyone's responded to it, I'm like 99% sure the OP's post wasn't satire considering their post history.

It is easier, yes, especially because you only have to get to 45%, versus anywhere from 75% to 90% for resistance, but with the changes to set bonuses in I24+, it's possible to get meaningful resistance through IO sets.

For what it's worth, there are a lot of powers that don't show hit rolls or are missing information in the combat logs. The patch yesterday seems to have fixed some of these but there are still some cases where you won't see a hit roll in your combat logs unless the power misses (Corrosive Enzymes is one example). That being said, I just created a Thugs/Traps/Mace MM on Pineapple and ran around Atlas Park for half an hour spamming Web Grenade and Web Envelope on anything I could find and wasn't able to recreate this. Every hit roll was showing and streakbreaker was working as expected (though occasionally the hit rolls would come in in a weird order in my combat logs so the streakbreaker would show up before the attack that missed).

"Being good at one specific thing" != "overpowered" (and Spines/Fire Brutes aren't even the best at what they do).

On Excelsior at least I'll usually see people forming TFs in LFG or global channels say the level difference they're running it at or if they're doing a speedrun. If I'm interested and it's not specified I'll ask before committing, but normally I just run my own and make sure to advertise them as speed runs.

There are a lot of game mechanics in CoH that the average person doesn't know about (accuracy vs tohit is one big example, and the absolutely wacky player powers/pets/pseudopets system) but I don't think nerfs are a solution to those mechanics being unintuitive. PB'd Fade is 100% not working as intended, I'll give it that at least. I'm amazed that hasn't been fixed yet. A good rule of thumb to determine the interaction between PB and defense buffs (for non-pet powers, at least): if the defense buff also grants resistance, and that resistance is enhanceable, then PB won't boost the defense. For powers granted by pseudopet, the pseudopet generally inherits all the player's buffs for the remainder of their duration, and for powers granted by pets, the pet generally inherits none of the player's buffs.

FFG is a pet and therefore doesn't inherit any buffs from its caster (pseudopets are different but FFG isn't a pseudopet). Power Boost is of extremely limited utility to the Traps set as a whole. You can do a comparison to, say, Force Field's bubbles - the ally shields are click buffs and will keep their PB'd value for their entire duration while the AoE bubble is a toggle and will be boosted only for the duration of PB.

Victory Rush is a weird power for me. It ignores global recharge (already making it less useful) and you can't mule any decent sets into it. If it were earlier in the leadership pool it might be worthwhile but IMO at that point it's a choice between Vengeance and Victory Rush and Veng wins that one 99% of the time solely because I can slap an LotG in there and call it good.