tidge

We have achieved perma-Haten.

If the global Performance Shifter %+End is at the lowest possible level, this is true.

I almost edited my reply to say exactly this, but I thought I'd let someone else make this rebuttal. Even if the narrative doesn't stand, I have found that the T2 Protector Bots are perfectly happy to act as mules for most of the henchmen auras.

It is almost as if the development team designed the T1 henchman (or perhaps non-offense T2) to act as mules for those pet damage IOs once the MM gets to a higher level...

If you want to entertain yourself, start a new tab just to monitor combat (specifically your ToHit rolls). Read this page, especially the part about "The Streak Breaker": https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics This is partially user bias: It certainly feels like many more of my attacks are hitting thanks to STREAKBREAKER than should. I actually did some log captures to check, and I was humbled by how difficult it would be for me to prove (with any significance) that it was firing too often. Any drop in 'final to hit chance' can allow for more misses before streakbreaker helps you. I remain uncomfortable in my ignorance.

You told me (and anyone else reading this thread). I don't think the Pet IOs are a "huge waste" of slots. There certainly is an offense/defense balance, but if a MM is distributing damage taken (via bodyguard mode) every bit of resistance is helping with the amount of damage being delivered to the Mastermind. My math may be off, but I think 6 henchmen in Bodygaurd mode are taking 75% of the damage meant for the MM (in addition to any damage they might take themselves) so resisting that damage is helping keep the MM alive. I'm not oblivious to the fact that the (especially solo) game resolves around dealing damage, I'm just questioning how 'huge' the waste of slots is. I'd also point out that if a MM has a recharge-instensive pet, those pet IOs (including the /Recharge ones... presumably the least 'wasteful' choices) offer a Global Recharge bonus with 4 slots.

He got the 's' kicked out of him in the 1980s.

How about Rick Dee?

For totally selfish reasons that I can justify (COMICS!) I'd sooner have Tough be made inherent than Hasten.

Most of us agree that there aren't really any 'Billion Inf' builds... maybe if a toon has multiple builds... but WumpusRat's point about also having to take the power choices to support a PermaHasten build are also a factor. Ignoring both a secondary that can contribute to Global Recharge and individual +Recharge Procs: Hasten = 70% (I think with two slots of 50+5 it is something like 99.4%?) (+1 slot) 5xLotG = 5x7.5% = 37.5% (5 different power picks, sadly "Rune of Protection" is not one of them) 3x 2-slot Mark of Supremacy = 3x6.25% = 18.75% (3 henchmen/pet summon powers) (+3 slots) 5xVery Rare sets = 5x10% = 50% (+20 slots) and then I think you still need at least one more Global recharge bonus (could be as few as +3 more slots with the other ATO, or 4-slot a Hold) In any case, I think it would be a peculiar Mastermind build that achieved Perma-Hasten in this way. I think you can get the 5 opportunities to slot the LotG +Recharge in as few as two power pools, the henchmen slotting is likely to be sub-par, and then you have to come up with 6 powers with a LOT of extra slots. On the flip side, the Accuracy bonuses form the Very Rare sets should help the henchmen!

I am sensitive to "stacking" (by any mechanisms, for both offense and defense): Masterminds certainly should be able to solo, but they aren't supposed to be a one-man team of 7 full-kit players. There are pieces of the proposal that I like! I'll circle back, but I have one low-level concern about any individual proposal it is that it feels like shifting a few pebbles has started an avalanche. I think a Babylon 5 gif is called for, but perhaps not the one you may have expected... Circling back to the upgrade powers... as I wrote above, no matter what the AT, I expect to find value (my meaning is consideration for both "pick a power" and "slot a power") from most primary powers. Sorry T9 Tanker choices, don't expect many invitations to the dance. Masterminds have always struck me as odd because It is not just acceptable to skip 3 (or more) powers from a Primary, but that most MM builds are more effective when they do exactly that. The upgrade powers strike me as equally odd: they are vital to the primary, there are two of them, they are used very infrequently, and once taken they require zero investment. I 1-slot them with Endurance reduction, as I suspect most others do. Adding anything to the Upgrades would provide value. Personally, if they are going to be one-cast-and-done, I'd prefer them to provide a passive benefit; as Redlynne suggested, just being able to hold the MM damage enhancement auras would be a HUGE win. Your suggestion that they simply apply boosts is an alternative, but then drives many other changes that I'm not sure I would want to follow all the way to the end. I'm neutral on the idea of the stance changes... I'm either directing the henchmen to "fight, kill, die" or "absorb for me, fight, die" while I am either fighting or supporting... you can try to sell me on the idea that I need more tools in this area, but that doesn't mean I'd use them. I can write more about my personal feelings for the Mastermind AT versus others, but I will limit my written concerns (playing an AT I enjoy) to this: My experience is that the main way MM builds offer the sort of variety that comes naturally to other AT is mostly through the Secondary set and one (sometimes two) Power pool choice(s)... and that it is the chance at variety that drives interest in an AT. The lack of diversity in enhancement choices (and where to slot them) takes a lot of the fun (for me) out of Mastermind character design, more so than any perceived performance issues from the henchmen.

Redlynne has come much closer to identifying the problem and proposing a solution to the problem of enhancing Mastermind Henchmen with IO choices. There are by my count 4 non-ATO aura IOs (2x Defense, 2xResist) and 2 ATO auras. For the MMs with only 3 pets, in order to slot each one of these auras, a MM essentially has to pass on the equivalent of one full pet slot worth of IOs. I'm not sure I've even considered ever getting a 5-slot bonus from any Pet IO or Mastermind ATO set! It would be so much more straightfoward (from a build planning POV, coding issues aside) to be able to slot Henchmen boost globals in a Mastermind primary powers (such as attacks, or the upgrades). We all know that there is very little (game) mechanical reason for an MM to take the attacks, and I can't think of a good reason to invest any slots in the upgrade powers, as is. I feel like almost all of the performance issues for henchmen can be addressed with better Enhancement choices/options. Even as a type this I am willing to concede: The Purple Patch is more problematic for Masterminds than any other AT because of the level scaling (costing them both offense and defense) Some Henchmen have 'flaws' that may not be balanced (Soft Ninjas, poor single-target Bots) Some players don't invest in IOs (but such players are unlikely to be trying to punch way above their level without IOs no matter the AT) I appreciate the deep look at Masterminds, but to be honest I'd rather have more build options (i.e. enhancement choices, reasons to take different powers) to play with before anything else more radical.

Be prepared for the onslaught of "I tanked him with my lvl 49 Defender" posts! I've only actually "tanked" him on a MoMLTF with my Inv/NRG tank. His Endurance drains are very dangerous. I was flying and spamming may Taunt. Dull Pain (a power I almost never use at lvl 50+) was on auto, with me paying attention to Hasten and the Endurance bar. My team was pretty quick with the towers, I'm sure I had less than 20 hits of the Dull Pain pipe. I *tried* to tank him with an uber-defense Night Widow (with Provoke... this is one of the few situations were Confront would have been better), managed to keep his attention *somehow*, but ONE HIT got through and dropped Endurance. It was all over except for tears...

Ok, I rolled out a variant of the build I posted: Same general layout, with the only major change was taking Force of Will for Travel and Debuff instead of the Teleport pool. I think I changed up the order of Provoke and Photon Grenade so I could have something in my hands at low levels. I also change up the Photon Grenade to be focused on Procs, which was a much better choice to do actual damage. I took the lonely big bot for a spin on the Hero Cape Mission at Level 50 with difficulty +0/x8. OMG this was a boring experience. I felt like I was in slow motion. Teleporting Rikti took me forever to defeat, even with the holds and slows. I missed the raw chaos of my 6-bot army! The Assault Bot simply isn't doing enough damage to be worthwhile to play on its own. Neither I nor the bot were ever in any danger, but it was just painfully slow to progress through the missions.

My Bane Spider has queued up his mace to post something in this thread, but you will have to wait for the animation to finish to read it...

I only casually mentioned Hasten in this thread because it was called out as being necessary to make Rune of Protection work (for Masterminds)! I'm quite a fan of Hasten myself, and I grok high levels of Global Recharge for long cooldown pool powers (including Rune of Protection and Unrelenting) as well as how useful it is to have a 90 second cooldown power available every 20 seconds. Since Masterminds can skip so many primary powers (their direct assaults), the Power Pools are soo inviting! Writing only for myself, my default considerations for the pools always start: 1) Travel (Preferably a flight or SJ, because it is about *ME* goldurnit, and *I* want freedom of movement in the world!) 2) Leadership (for the pets) 3) Fighting (for the Resistance mules, and ultimately Weave for defenses) 4) ???? The 4th Pool choice just has so many options (that I have explored): Presence: Essentially a 1-pick wonder for Tankerminds with Provoke (with two great 3rd and 4th choices, if you dare dive deep but Unrelenting also needs Recharge) Speed: 1-pick wonder for Global recharge with Hasten Medicine: Targeted healing of Pets/Teammates/Self (and a debuff) Concealment: For extra defense (Grant Invisibility) Teleport: Teleport Foe as a long-range taunt (not recommended, but it sort of works) I'm certainly aware of necessary compromise that can be made. I'm one of the last people that would ever try to tell someone that they are playing their AT wrong. I simply wanted to comment on this specific thread, for the specific case of calling out "Rune of Protection" for mez protection, that there are a lot more assumptions that go into making that particular power choice work than I usually see mentioned.

Masterminds certainly have more freedom to dip deeper(*1) into power pools than other ATs... ...but a Rune of Protection for the Mastermind is almost certainly going to be a secondary concern for any Mastermind whose pets are dealing the "most damage" (either through straight aggression or via Defending/Supremacy/Tankermind). If it is about damage dealing, Enflame might be a better choice from the Sorcery pool. (*1) Hasten (Speed pool) is a dead end for many ATs, but except for Recharge-intensive pet builds I rarely consider it for Masterminds.

These threads always have advice in pieces, here is mine! (specific to a level 50 toon) Boosting: There are several types of IOs that you can boost as high as 50 +5, and whatever (scaled) bonuses they provide will work at any level. Such as: crafted common IOs (e.g. the singletoe Recharge Reduction) "PVP" sets (e.g. Panacea, Shield Wall) "Universal Travel" sets (Blessing of the Zephyr, Winter's Gift) Very Rare "Superior" sets which can only be slotted at level 50 Don't worry about about having an attuned "global" or "proc" (e.g. "Chance of Lethal Damage") from a PVP or Universal Travel set, or if the level is below 50. If you slotted it, you are getting the benefits no matter your level. Even boosting things which will work no-matter the level has two caveats: Enhancement Diversification will (eventually) diminish the returns you can get. Still, "more is more". Boosting the individual Recharge time of powers (not Global recharge) beyond a certain point can diminish the chance for "proc" pieces to fire. Attuning: If you have been playing with Winter Sets (aside from Universal Travel) or ATO pieces (these will be attuned when you get them), at level 50 you can further attune them (into "Superior" versions) for higher set bonuses (and in the case of Procs, higher chances to proc). You may not want to do this is you are going to have more than five of the same type of bonus. Fore Example: I have a Dominator with five 10% Global Recharge bonuses from PVP sets, so I left one of the ATO sets as non-Superior to get an extra 8.75% Global Recharge instead of wasting a sixth 10% bonus. The only other time I ran into this issue with a build was IIRC the Masterminds who can 2-slot a Superior ATO set for 3x10% Global Recharge. The Overwhelming Force (Universal Damage) set will also always be attuned, but a "Superior" version does not exist. Generally for uncommon/rare IO set pieces: don't worry about keeping an Attuned "global" or "proc". There are only a few pieces that provide a benefit to Boosting in addition to the Global effect. For example: The Luck of the Gambler Global Recharge "global" piece also includes a Defense bonus. I believe the Steadfast Protection Resist/Defense allows the Resist to be boosted but the 3% global Defense bonus will not be affected.

I have Rune of Protection (on a Blaster) and there is slightly more involved with this power than just casually suggesting it as a remedy for mez protection: As mentioned, it has a ridiculously long cooldown time. Yes, it is possible with enough Global Recharge to lower the cooldown, but that is a big investment in other power (and slot) choices. If you rely on Hasten and Rune of Protection, that is 2 of 4 Power Pool choices. Click Mez protection with a cooldown greater than 70 seconds is probably also relying on a high-Defense build. Rune of Protection requires 2 other power picks from the Sorcery pool (I'm not sure if there is a minimum level requirement on Homecoming). I don't flinch about taking a travel power early in a build (here, Mystic Flight), but it is a rare build that I try to squeeze 3 power choices from a single power pool before level 24. Keep in mind that there is an explicit need to have chosen Hasten as well. On my Blaster with Rune of Protection, I happened to take Mystic Flight (lvl 4) -> Arcane Bolt (lvl 12, holding a 10% Global recharge set) -> Rune of Protection (lvl 41). I suppose I could have taken it earlier in the build and burned more slots to make it the mule for Resist IO Globals, but that would have delayed the Fighting pool (which is providing the Defense boosts of the second bullet above). All these things direct consideration of choosing Rune of Protection to be a completely secondary choice (for builds with certain characteristics) as opposed to being a primary choice. Rune of Protection works well enough for my Blaster, but it came so late in the build and relies on IO boosts and Global Recharge bonuses that only come into their own for a level 50 character. It was a good suggestion about binding keys to combine inspirations into Break Free (et al.) inspirations works as it works across all levels for all toons (obviously better for higher levels with more inspiration slots) and doesn't rely on particular power choices.

I also agree that the Bots are not high damage. The Knockback is also a PITA, but burning a slot on a Sudden Acceleration KB-KD helps A LOT, as it will at least keep the targets more-or-less in place. The T2 Protector Bots burn a lot of time/endurance on applying bubbles rather than attacking. I also agree that generally proc-slotting T1 is a losing proposition. The only 'proc' IO that I consider putting in the T1 (or on more basic non-MM recharge pets) are: Overwhelming Force: Damage/KB->KD (for T1 that don't do Knockback) as it adds a level of control Souldbound Allegiance %Build Up just to try to keep them even with mobs that con higher than them I suppose there may be other 'effects' that bring value, but I generally prefer an effect as opposed to trying for a little more damage. It is entirely possible that using the T1 to mule defense/resist IOs (freeing slots on the T2 and T3) will be the best use of those T1 slots for any given build.

Here is my first attempt at a "Boy and his Giant Robot" build. I have a Robots/Traps MM, and I am tempted to try something like this on an alternate build, now that the toon is 50+. I don't think I'd ever try leveling up with such a build. The data: Some comments: The build is trying for very high Defenses for the MM and the Bot. Some of my IO set choices are to boost positional defenses, but those are still (mostly) lower than typed defenses, so there is room to make some changes. Normally I would take Grant Invisibility to further boost the Assault Bot's Defenses, but I decided I "needed" the following pools: 1) Fighting: To get mule slots, and Weave. It also allows for a Melee attack. 2) Leadership: To support the Assault Bot. 3) Presence: For Provoke. A Tankermind is not going to work well with only a single Henchmen, but the MM Defenses are going to be better than the Assault Bot's. 4) I also hate to not take an actual travel power, so I went with Teleport for Teleport Foe shenanigans. One of the newer pools might be a better fit. Running a Mastermind as an attacker is IMO a loosing proposition. The Damage is terrible and it make Endurance management a PITA. Several of the slotting choices have been made to improve Endurance (MaxEnd, Recovery, EndDiscount). This build only uses two direct attacks from the MM: one Melee (Kick) and one Ranged AoE (Photon Grenade). With only two attacks, Endurance may be less of a consideration. I did not try to "proc monster" the MM attacks, except that Photon Grenade (slotted with Annihilation for Endurance assists) would be re-slotted to add Lethal/Energy/Fire damage procs in addition to the Knockdown and -Resistance if it turns out Endurance is under control. I recommend keeping the Overwhelming Force KB->KD here because it will help control enemies for your Bot. The Pet bonus procs for Defense (and Resistance) are too good to NOT include, so rather than take the T1 Pulse Rifle Blast (see my disdain for MM attacks above) this build uses the T1 Battle Drones to "mule" those pieces. Note that there is space for a 6th slot: if you want more Global Recharge 10%!), 2-slot the Superior Mark of Supremacy ATO by stealing a slot from Teleport Foe. It may also be possible that you can do without one of the Resistance auras, but I always just default to using them. The Assault Bot MUST have a KB->KD proc, in order to not knock enemies out of it's fire patch. It might as well get the Soulbound Allegiance %Build Up as well. I opted to 4-slot the Superior ATO command of the Mastermind here for the set bonuses. The AoE Defense (15%!) may not be strictly necessary but I think whatever else might replace one of the ATO would be a marginal improvement (A Hami-O Acc/Dam perhaps?). This build has many choices I would consider "odd", but if the point is to only have the Assault Bot, I feel that the playstyle would be radically different and require different power choices. Here are some thoughts: Web Grenade: I hate this single-target power. I find that rarely is immobilizing a single target worthwhile. I 6-slotted only for the (marginal) Defense boosts. Before trying this build I think I might steal slots from this to beef up the Seeker Drones. It's in the build assuming that the MM sometimes wants to keep an enemy in place for the Assault Bot. Caltrops: Many dislike caltrops, but I love an AoE Slow which *I* place. I want the -Resistance to help out the Assault Bot. Triage Beacon: I like the Preventive Maintenance bonuses. Provoke: As explained, this is to allow a sort of Tankermind (but really to keep aggro from the Assault Bot). I think the recharge time would almost always defeat having a reliable %Psi damage, and the typed defense boosts from Mocking Beratement are too good to pass up. This is the only choice from its pool, so it will be easy to delay this power choice for as long as you would like. See Photon Grenade below. Kick: shown here as 6-slotted with a Winter Set for defense boosts. Tough: I'm have an iconoclastic approach to S/L resists from Tough. Rarely do I find that boosting the inherent S/L resistance to pay off as much as just using it as a mule, as I did in this build. YMMV. Weave and Maneuvers and Force Field Generator: Normally I would have the IOs for Weave and Maneuvers reversed to "share" a slightly higher Defense with the Assault Bot, but I'm selfish. I think this is most +Defense (ALL) I can get out of 5-slots and while maximize the LoTG +Recharge and having a Shield Wall Global. Poison Trap: I love this power. I chose the 6-slot PVP for the bonuses. Repair: I always skip this power, but on a single-bot build it seems like a good investment. Photon Grenade: It certainly can be taken earlier in the build, but my assumption is that the player isn't going to be playing much content below level 32 This also informs the IO set choice. With that assumption I delayed the choice as long as possible. If you want to play lower content (with no bots) I would Swap Photon Grenade with either Provoke (level 8, if you are truly itching for combat at most levels) or Maneuvers (level 22, as in PUGs you are less likely to need it). Scorpion Shield: I like the 6-set bonus from Reactive Defenses, so I try to find a power where I get the most bang from using this set. For "A Boy and his Bot", the main gap appeared to be defenses, so this was my choice. I'm also running out of slots, so I felt like I was going to pass on other powers from the Epic/Patron pool. I didn't see a better choice, but I am willing to hear other options. I'm completely unsure if Power Boost would be a worthwhile later pool choice for all the craziness the MM is bringing. Assault: Chosen just for the +Damage boost for the Assault Bot. An easy 1-slot power choice. Teleport Foe: I added this power as a means of bringing enemies to the Assault Bot (via Teleport or 'Long Range Taunt'). It also fits with my internal concept of the Mastermind not making (m)any direct attacks. This is a slow way of trying to clear maps, but I already feel like this approach to an MM is radical and so I wanted to include another oddball approach to playing this type of character. A more 'direct combat' alternative to the Teleport pool would be to instead choose a pool that allows for a a travel power as well as a debuff to be applied to an enemy instead (e.g. Weaken Resolve from Force of Will). YMMV. Seeker Drones: I love these little guys, but I was out of slots! My past experience is that they work best with high recharge to contribute Stuns. You can try to get a little more damage from them with the Cloud Senses proc if you are so inclined. Detonator: I actually hate this power, but if you are only going to have one Pet at a time this seems like a a good 'make the ultimate sacrifice my friend' (or is it 'see you later sucker!') choice. Vengence: Chosen just as a LoTG mule, as I'm out of slots and pool choices. Some last thoughts: This build looks worse on Accuracy than I prefer, so Tactics may deserve a place in the build.