plainguy

If you look at mids you will see there is a difference.. EG Call hawk on Mastermind does 49 Damage and on Dom it does over 100 for the same endurance. I would imagine at the start of the game they probably had a set of formulas and numbers that went something like this.. 1 point of DPS equals X amount of endurance. Then they added variances for Range Melee and then other elements like AOE, CONE.. Debuffs.. Then at some point they had to add some variance based on Arch Type.. I recall the endurance penalty wasn't there at the start of masterminds, but somewhere near coming live they seen some sort of DPS creep. Basically the Pets Plus attacks was making them out DPS some Arch Types. As time when on I just think they played around with numbers and such until it seemed right and everyone was happy. At the end of the day any Arch Type and build can run out of endurance if not properly setup. But with Masterminds you just have to cognitive of your endurance. You can't fight at that pace you fight with other AT. There has to be a deliberate cadence in your attacks. When the pets die everything then falls off. You have 2 options.. Run away from the fight or try to summon in the midst of a fight depending on your build. If you summon during a fight you have a chance of loosing all your pets again as there is a window of about 14 seconds with summon and upgrading where pets are defenseless, but can take damage and die again. Which is common. Or you run off and resummon. Either scenario is a clearly a DPS hit for masterminds. Now I am not saying OMG my Blaster finishes this mission in 5 minutes and it takes my Mastermind 10 minutes.. That is horrible. But we have to measure something on the arch types.. Damage Per Second seems to be the common measure. DPS wise with the slower paced endurance cadence and pet wipes you are doing less DPS. Look when a single Tier 1 pet dies I keep moving on.. The 14 seconds of buffing is just not worth my time. The amount of damage they do is not game shattering. Especially against mobs 4 to 6 levels higher than them. This my Summoning ideology. 2 Tier 1s down = resummon 1 Tier 2 or Tier 3 down = resummon Otherwise I move on. The attacks should be doing MORE damage based on the endurance we pay.. Or give us options to pick up something to protect the pets instead of attacks. Leave the attacks for someone who wants them. I will tell you when the attack are fun.. When your level 50 petless/ semi petless mastermind with incarnates. Then it is cool because you are not starving for endurance as cardiac helps that out. Then yes with Procing your doing some cool damage.

This should be a sticky in a few places.. I just did it and it worked Thank you

That was GREAT !

See for me a shot in the back usually just kills the runners.. Plus they always come back.. Also it depends on play style.. For me If MY BUILD can't do 8/3 setting it is garbage. I don't care about anyone else's build.. I don't care if they are running SO's and have all the travel powers.. On average, on a full team 3 defense capped players is all you need to steam roll. Everyone else is extra DPS.. Then add in incarnates.. I go for AOE attacks and a few single target attacks to pick off runners.. PERSONALLY I like Disruption arrow over Entanglement Arrow for the AOE and stun IO..

Again. .No one said SKIPPING Anything.. Please re-read what I have posted and said repeatedly.. It would be very foolish of me to ask to remove a power option completely.. I clearly said choice several times..

I think this is more of thematic concept. Personally I think my toons are great with all their powers.. Thus the choice option request. So you are aware VEAT actually have this option already. They have 2 choices for each power level on both primary and secondary..

See I would be making hideless stalkers.. Don't want to derail, but Petless and semi petless is a good litmus test for new Mastermind arch types and play styles.. Imagine if Masterminds just had different mechanics based on the number of pets you had. Imagine that if you only took ONE Tier of Pet that it was as strong as all 3 pets. EG Imagine having 3 Tier one pets that were level 50 and just had a bit more attacks and YOU also had more attacks and other game mechanics.. Personally I see a lot of different play styles you can do if they changed how Masterminds worked. You would see players some new unique attack powers that replaced pets maybe.. You would see a bunch of players with less pets running around, but I think also many other players would be happy with that. Having 3 masterminds on your team now with less pets would make many people happy.. You take away a pet you get this other benefit.. Think how the VEATs work where they can have a mix of old and new sets.. But the great thing also... You keep the Original Mastermind as well. You want to be old school.. Great.. Nothing changes for you. Also remember Thugs Mastermind created Dual Pistol set.. Finally my Petless and Semi Petless ( usually last pet for thematic reasons ) are doing 8/3 setting. There are level 50 players running around with ALL the travel powers on SOs. Or Semi Frankenslotted but really have no clue about game mechanics or the purpose of Invention Sets, Procs and so on.

Funny you are asking me why I am asking you about being a cheesy player. But you are quoting another person in response to me. If you take the time to read what this other person sent me to read, that you are quoting and stating it will never happen. You will realize the Developers are actually stating it can happen and they suggested it. You will read that the Developers wanted to switch the T1 powers with the T2 powers. Meaning your first mandatory choice would be the T2 power instead in the T1 spot.. They were moving 2 powers around. They were NOT giving players the option of picking the T2 over the T1. Players complained to some degree that they wanted to tank and not have a DPS increase per say. Though if you read a few pages you will also see players thought it was cool idea after MISUNDERSTANDING what the Devs have said thinking it was an OPTION.. You will see one person posted about a Stalker not taking hide as their initial choice and gimping themselves out for a few levels before they could pick it up again. I might have picked Entanglement arrow as my target for this post, but my request which I attempted clarify a second time and I stated this in the post you are quoting me from and also and I am yet again restating it.. I am asking for the OPTION to pick the T2 over the T1 on your secondary power set. Similar to what you can do now with your primary set. Currently when creating the character you are locked in to picking the first power in the secondary set. I would like the option to have 2 powers to choose from at level one from the secondary set.. Either the T1 or T2 power.. EG When creating my Robot Trick Arrow Mastermind I have the choice of picking up Pulse Rifle Blast or Battle Drones from the Primary. On the secondary I would like the OPTION to EITHER pick up Entanglement Arrow OR Flash Arrow at level 1.. It is further obvious that this is linked to the Secondary Set as what is primary for some Arch Types is Secondary for other Arch Types.. As another example for this would be Corruptors and Defenders. If you look you will see Trick Arrow is Primary for Defenders with the option of Entanglement Arrow or Flash Arrow at level one.. Whereas for Corruptors Trick Arrow is a secondary and only has the ability to pick one power at level one. As far as me mentioning cheesy player. I felt I needed to cover as many bases with you. For the simple reason, you didn't respond to my suggestion but gave me your opinion on a power. Then after reclarifying my suggestion a second time you then still did not read comments and felt a thread lock was needed for some still unknown reason. So since you initially quoted someone else and decided on the lesson. I figured you would just quote someone else and use that as a reason. This is why I asked you for some facts or some sort of data to support any further possible statements. This is also why I delved into the power pools statement to try to see what angle you would retort back with.. I was covering the bases best I could so we didn't keep jumping from one reason to another..

Oddly enough the Developers didn't see it too much work to switch T1 and T2 for Tankers. So why would the OPTION of allowing to take a T2 on a secondary set be so difficult. Again this is already an OPTION for Primary powers. I replied to some of the comments and even tried to explain my point as it seems some posters misunderstood the request. At the end of the day its the suggestion forum and they don't go running around locking threads because you don't like the suggestion or what is being said. I mean this is what you said It has NOTHING to do with the suggestion I posted. You are pretty much telling me why I MUST have that power.. You pretty much ignored what I said and just made it about your own point. I understand you feel the need to give me a lesson on importance of entanglement arrow but you should at least address the suggestion. Maybe explain or expand on why having the option to pick a T2 instead of T1 is a bad thing ? What sort of cataclysmic effect it would have ? Is there some power creep you are aware of ? We only can pick 5 power pools and some are locked out when others are picked. So not picking a T1 power will enable a player to pick something in a power pool at most. Again I roll back to my statement above. Why does having the Option in a primary not break the game or not create the label of maxing but having that option in the secondary suddenly make you a bad person or a cheesy player.

LOL okay.. Not going to play this word soup with you. The Developers clearly made endurance and recharge changes to mastermind pet summoning. There was a reason behind that. We all know why. The also mentioned they would review things further as well. Look I have said a lot already on this above. It takes about 14 seconds and 51 endurance to summon and upgrade pets. It took them coincidentally 14 seconds to kill a Death Mage and I was able to do it in 8 seconds with 20 endurance with just Dual Pistol attacks and everything removed. Half is 25 at 7 seconds.. I have no issue with the 1 second more at 5 less endurance. Again this is a yellow con level 50 mob. The problem comes in when the Player actually wants to play instead of watching. Which I know sounds crazy right. Further this was just one mob. My pets could not handle 8/3 setting. Even if I could isolate one group. There would be tons more summoning of dead pets which would up the endurance cost would would reduce your damage per endurance. Why? Because the higher the mobs the less the pets can do. The Tier 1 would be almost useless. More pets getting killed requiring re-summoning. So we both know your Damage per endurance would go up and your DPS would go down. Or do you not see that ? But for game play reasons players complained and things were changed or added in.. EG KB to KD IOs.. Crashless Nukes.. Mastermind have to deal with 14 seconds of down time on a pet wipe. Endurance cost is about 51 endurance and that with IO build with some endurance redux in it. Look at any other AT and see what you can do with 50 endurance. Pets do die and need to be resummoned constantly.. Pets can also be killed again during resummon. Masterminds are the lowest hit points and unless built specifically to not need pets they are useless without pets, because only 3 Secondary have DPS capabilities. Bodyguard mode is almost essential for many players, playing masterminds. They have the highest endurance cost. As I mentioned yet again above this is death by 1000 cuts.. You know if they said pets that died will just resummon in X amount of seconds no need to summon, buff or use endurance then I can see your point of damager per endurance. And that would go a long way because you are not spending X amount of endurance to resummon whatever tier pet and rebuffing..

Is this bizzaro world ? I didn't mention anything about damage.. YOU DID.. I also have many 50 masterminds all of them don't have endurance issues. IF I go slow.. If I do a 3 count between powers.. If I look at my endurance bar and determine if an attack power is okay to use.. But YOU said Mastermind pets do HUGE damage this is why the endurance is not an issue. If Mastermind pets did do HUGE damage then it would be foolish of me to come and make a comment that I was do be able to do MORE HUGE damage or longer sustained Damage.. Again I a retorting back to your flippant comment.. Where is your proof of huge damage ? Again show me anything.. I went to the wiki pages and showed you where this community as a whole thinks Mastermind DPS compared to other Arch Types.. Do you think the Wiki is wrong ( not that a wiki page is end all be all ) ? Then go change it post you data there why you think that chart is wrong.. I'm sorry if you THOUGHT you were going to make up some stuff and then expect me or anyone else to just take it as fact. it is clear you don't expect to be challenged.. But I know, you will post another one liner and never bring any sort of facts to the table and then walk off. Like you showed me. You are too good to produce any sort of facts.. Mind you I don't mind a debate.. I don't mind saying Opps, I am wrong. I didn't realize this or that.. I am not too big to apologize. But conversely I'm not a pushover either.. On page 2 of the Proc thread I made a statement, 17 pages later some other posters did the math to prove what I simply stated 15 pages earlier. 20+ pages later someone went and created videos for the same thing. Am I gonna do the math ? No.. I am I gonna do the Videos ? No.. I am just doing some quick number juggling and looking at Mids and I get ball park numbers along with game play experience with various Arch Types. I am not the first one to say endurance is an issue for masterminds.. It is clear the Devs know.. Because they made some changes and they clearly stated they would be looking some more.. My point is Squeaky wheel gets the grease.. If you don't complain about it then they think reducing endurance and recharge on pet summoning fixed it.. It didn't. Yea it is great because now my Robot Traps doesn't have to worry about dropping toggles when resummoning pets during a bad moment in game Or have to wait YET AGAIN to resummon pets that just got RE-killed while summoning and Buffing.. But Masterminds have attack powers, so they should be usable, just like any other AT powers.. We shouldn't have to calculate the cost effectiveness ratio of a power vs endurance during a fight. When some Range player just went from T1 to T9 and back to T1 in seconds.

I am talking level 50, IO Build. Rule of thumb which I follow and well versed in is 2 to 1 for endurance vs usage. Basically your recovery has to be 2 points above the usage. I follow that all the time and make sure I am at or above this mark. Sometimes Incarnates help push you above this as well. Robot is a prime example. That Photon Grenade attack is very noticeable endurance wise. But Playing Traps for example I am straight up Tankermind.. Lay down my traps and mine(s) provoke and keep going through the cycle.. I'm at 45% Positional Defense cap with IOs and then the bots add their 14% and then Incarnates add whatever based on what is picked. Again that is my personal Robot Traps build. As you know everyone plays it different. I notice more endurance drain issues when it gets really bad.. FFG drops ( I forget to rebuff or Gets aggro ), then the pets drop due to less defenses as FFG is gone. Then I am scrambling to regain control. From what I recall when Masterminds first came out some initial numbers showed that their DPS was a bit high and they did this endurance thing to balance it out as a quick fix, which I get. But Endurance has ALWAYS been an issue for Masterminds even when the game was live and paid to play. But if you look at the Pistol attacks for Thugs you will see they clearly pay more for less. They do not get any of the buffs or debuffs for the gun attacks that others do. Not to get side tracked, but there should be a base cost formula, EG it should cost X endurance to create 1 DPS of damage. Then Benefit and Con to a power should add or subtract Endurance cost from the power. Then add on whatever endurance factor for each AT is needed. Unfortunately I do not think this is the case here in this game. I think it is more where should this Arch Type be within all these other Arch Types. Having the following level 50 IO toons; Scrappers, Blaster, Corruptors, Brutes, Masterminds, Petless Masterminds, Semi-Petless Masterminds, Defenders, Sentinels, Controllers, Arachnos Soldier. I can confidently say I am not feeling the Endurance drain on them and the fight is more fluid and exciting to some degree. Even using the NumKey Pad commands the Mastermind controls are still clunky to some degree. Sometimes you have to spam goto here a few times to make pets move and stay in a spot. Though the pet control changes are much, much better than they were before.. But I think as I mentioned originally it is the Resummoning of pets. The delay inherit in the summoning and buffing. The vulnerability of the pets during this time in which they are defenseless and can get yet killed off again.. The Lack luster of the Tier 1 pets DPS.. Out of the Mastermind Secondary's I only see 3 that can be used without pets and still clear out mobs affectively, though slowly. Traps with Trip Mine, Trick Arrow with Oil Slick, Storm with Lighting Storm. When you look at things like Dark Miasma Darkest Night cost of .65 endurance vs Corruptors .55, some might scoff at the .15 but all those .15 add up.. It is death by 1000 cuts. If Masterminds were so powerful you would see players steam rolling through missions with them. Again there would be talk on the forums.. Those talks are on the Brute forums. Tell me what AT needs to run away in a mission to find a safe spot to re summon pets to continue playing ? Simple answer None.. If we want to get technical that running away is down time. There is a DPS loss no matter how you look at it. Why did they remove nukes that crashed your Endurance ? Because it wasn't fun. Perfect example is Nova on Blasters. Who wants to use a power that is going drain your endurance and prevent endurance recovery for a short period of time you after you use it ? Not many.. It was the power used on the last fight on the map or even the first as long as you had room to run off or inspirations to cover you. Yes I know it can be used much more, but there was clearly a strategic process around using it which even including warning or telling the team you were using it NOT to waste it.. What happens is if you see it, eventually you start realizing these attack powers are not so much worth it. I would rather use the endurance if possible on some other power to keep my pets more alive.. You end up respecing out of your 1 to 3 attacks and just end up moving the pets around and commanding them to attack while you use what you have to keep the pets alive. It is no longer you and the pets.. It just the pets with you pointing them to fight something. Mind you if the Pets did do HUGE DAMAGE as some are stating, then I would have no issue being a glass cannon. But with Masterminds so many things can go wrong.. It is either you do well or fail miserably, there just is no in between.

First off do you play Masterminds ? Do you have any at level 50 ? You have some numbers on this huge damage compared to other Arch Types.. Mind you yes, I am sure Masterminds will do more damage then certain other builds on certain other Arch Types.. In a sense they were supposed to be the Tank for Red side. But your statement is false.. First off the Tier 1 pets are 2 levels lower then you( level 48 max). There are countless threads on suggestion forums that bring up the issues of the Tier one pets and the lack luster damage they do. That leaves you with 3 other pets. The Tier 2 are buffers with some damage.. So they are not all DPS as they have a buff in their attack cycle. They are 1 levels Lower than you ( 49 Max) The Tier 3 is equal level ( 50 max ) I do not know if incarnates level increase affects the pets, but I am pretty sure they don't. But let me point you to the homecoming wiki https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Mastermind https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Scrapper https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Brute https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Tanker Let me try Sentinel, everyone complains about their low DPS https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Sentinel You know let see controllers.. https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Controller - Ahh now we can see Masterminds slightly beat out Controllers in a DPS category. Yep you are right Huge Pet damage just beats out Controllers.. So lets continue with disproving your flippant statement. What happens when the pets die ? What AT has to wait just about 10 seconds to get back into combat ? Simple Answer None.. Again if you play Masterminds, then you clearly know what I am talking about.. I am 1000% positive if we pick a mission and have all the AT run through it on a 8/3 setting Masterminds completion time will NOT be high up there.. The simple rule is Mastermind must have his full set of pets at all times.. The reality is, if you play a Mastermind then you know there are certain things you just accept.. EG one Tier one dropping off and just running around with 5 bots.. The time wasted to summon one bot and rebuff is just not worth it. Again not because we are doing so much HUGE damage with our Tier one pets.. Its because the damage they do between 2 and 3 pets is negligible. If they did such HUGE damage you would be seeing tons of farming post and outdoor city maps for Masterminds to run through specifically created for Masterminds, but you don't..

Okay.. We have 2 different books. I don't really get this whole pious stance on Min and Maxing when it is clear that horse has already left the stable. I also don't get how having the option to not pick a T1 power that everyone thinks is so great is actually me Min and Maxing.. Technically by the comments I am actually Mining myself so I don't see the complaint here. Then you should be fighting to get IOs removed and Procs removed.. Please look at the 22+ page of the proc thread.. Mind you I am not even bringing up Incarnate powers as this thread evolves into a min and maxing and how should want entanglement arrow. So basically I want to remove a power several have posted is great and then I am also accused of min and maxing.. Talk about a witch hunt here.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding.. I reposted down below without changing the original post

Maybe I wasn't clear.. I am NOT SAYING REMOVE any powers.. I am NOT SAYING Swap out any powers for another.. I am asking the OPTION to pick the T2 instead of being forced into the T1 on Secondary. Again like we pretty much have on ALL Primary sets. I thought my original post was clear but I guess it was not.

First off you pointed me towards Page 2 in which pretty much showed players in favor of the change. But I am not asking to swap powers.. I am asking to have the OPTION to pick T2 instead of T1.. So you pointing to that thread to prove a point on what I am asking is incorrect.. As I am not asking that..

Its not min / max. It just picking up one power over another.. Cheesier ? I am not trying to cheese or get over. I am just looking for another option over the level 1 choices.. Not that I am offended by this but this is pretty weak accusation and tossing out labels for no reason.

This does not make sense.. You are saying that having the OPTION to pick OR NOT to pick a level one power over another is an issue ? Giving the player base a CHOICE is a bad thing ? Further my play style does not require entanglement arrow. I do great without it. Zero issues.. I would rather give that up over disruption arrow.

I am not saying to REMOVE the POWER.. I am saying remove the MUST pick this power.. 2 different things..

I really would love if the Mastermind 3 attack powers could please be looked at. I have a few toons that are full pets and attacks and the use of the attack powers is completely and totally noticeable endurance wise.. There is just no way for a Mastermind to go full tilt on his attack powers. There is no "Scrapperlock" moments.. That endurance warning after a few attacks brings you back to reality pretty fast. There just has to be more to Masterminds then telling pets to attack here and there while you toss out some buffs and debuffs gingerly as to not anger the Endurance gods.. The attack powers are over the top endurance wise and the attacks are neutered. I keep repeating this. Masterminds are paying more for less. Make them stack like the fighting pool maybe.. Each one benefits off the other.. I don't know the right answer but I know something is wrong. I have enough level 50 toons all IOed out to just notice the difference. Every other AT is like 0 to 60 in 3 seconds and Masterminds are getting there in 10 seconds. Add in the pet issues that make them vulnerable for 10 seconds. This stuff is just compounding on each other. Again I get the uniqueness of them, but you need to tweak them. The endurance changes on summoning, I am sorry were useless. Its like giving a toothpick to a toothless person. I love the arch type and I enjoy making petless mastermind builds and such. My Petless masterminds are much better equipped then my 6 pet mastermind. But I wish someone could understand the frustration of just playing them sometimes. For me it starts off with good intentions of creating the build and running the toon. Then after a while between the resummoning and upgrading of pets in combat that give you about 10 seconds of dead air in which they can do nothing but die again. Then doing your attacks like a magician telling the mobs don't look over there, Look over here at the Pistol/whip/laser gun in my hand. Which doesn't work. Which in the end sometimes requires you to RESUMMON again the missing bots ( depending on the circumstances). Healing the pet sometimes just becomes pointless because you either using inspirations that you could have or should have used/saved for yourself. End result it is almost best not to fight off the death because you are already using endurance to heal the pets if applicable which leaves you with less endurance when you need to resummon the pet.

Notice Assault bot keeps getting killed which means he is pulling aggro. I also notice my 3 attacks are KILLING my endurance.. This overall just sucks.. Because it starts to put you in realization again that Masterminds just can't use their attacks freely like everyone else can.. It gets to the point why have them. surely not all 3.. I took out Ice arrow and went with provoke.. But Assault Bot still getting killed. Gonna work with positioning a bit.. doing S/L farm on 8/3 ATM to work out the flying kinks.. Just feeling a lot of bot death compared to robot traps which is less

Well it is clear you are seeing some sort of DPS spike in the data and it is clear you are seeing what the builds are and of course that their are Procs within the build. I also get if the player were solo doing this then it would be really clear but on a team with all these buffs it is hard to pin point was it a perfect storm or something else. Couldn't the Devs recreate the build solo and then add components to see where the spike occurs ? EG was it the Kin buffs. Was it the combo of Victory rush plus kin buffs.. ETC..

Not really demanding.. This is done all the time work wise.. What are the issues.. What are the blockers.. How can we break down the issue into smaller bits. What teams will handle what.. Sort of like Agile and Sprints.. ETC.. But with 22 pages of what I am pretty sure is somewhat repetitive and combative posting. This thread started off as someone posting that the Devs have issues with Procs.. I asked where this was seen or told. But maybe this poster has some inside scoop.. Nonetheless it seems countless of players seem believe there is a proc issue thus 22 pages of god knows what at this point. Now a Devs jumps in that surely has some inside scoop. This might help narrow the focus of the topic. Maybe its not all the procs.. Maybe it is only 5 procs out of all the procs.. Maybe it is a combination of procs.. Maybe it is specific AT and builds that are an issue. Maybe then players might come up with some ideas that they might like. Otherwise we are spinning wheels on Perfect Zinger Proc when the real issue is Javelin Volley Proc. Again I don't see the issue here.. But I get it. I also don't know it all so this might be something I missed out on. I only see certain primary and secondary's benefitting from doing these Procmonster builds. I also understand that some of these are a series of attacks or chain of attacks. On a full team no one gets to dump a chain of attacks off on a group of mobs.. 3 defense cap players can hold up an entire team if the others were just in SO enhancers.. Everyone after 3 is just EXTRA DPS.. Further on a team you have no clue who is wiping out the mobs.. Unless that person is steam rolling ahead and playing solo. We could be driving a good conversation, but it might be the wrong conversation we are having..

Currently running this build. Bots giving 14% to Defenses so things like Energy and negative capped as well. Range is in the 50s. Endurance is pretty much covered without Incarnates but you can't go full tilt on the powers. You do need to eat blue inspirations if you are constantly firing off powers. What I do notice is aggro issues on the pets.. I am considering adding provoke to pull some of the aggro. But was also considering Aid other and Aid Self for some extra healing on the bots and even myself. But I can't have both Aid and Provoke due to power pool limitation. I would remove Ice arrow and Poison Gas Arrow. Was even considering removing Disruption arrow for Field Medic as that also gives and endurance buff.