plainguy

Is this bizzaro world ? I didn't mention anything about damage.. YOU DID.. I also have many 50 masterminds all of them don't have endurance issues. IF I go slow.. If I do a 3 count between powers.. If I look at my endurance bar and determine if an attack power is okay to use.. But YOU said Mastermind pets do HUGE damage this is why the endurance is not an issue. If Mastermind pets did do HUGE damage then it would be foolish of me to come and make a comment that I was do be able to do MORE HUGE damage or longer sustained Damage.. Again I a retorting back to your flippant comment.. Where is your proof of huge damage ? Again show me anything.. I went to the wiki pages and showed you where this community as a whole thinks Mastermind DPS compared to other Arch Types.. Do you think the Wiki is wrong ( not that a wiki page is end all be all ) ? Then go change it post you data there why you think that chart is wrong.. I'm sorry if you THOUGHT you were going to make up some stuff and then expect me or anyone else to just take it as fact. it is clear you don't expect to be challenged.. But I know, you will post another one liner and never bring any sort of facts to the table and then walk off. Like you showed me. You are too good to produce any sort of facts.. Mind you I don't mind a debate.. I don't mind saying Opps, I am wrong. I didn't realize this or that.. I am not too big to apologize. But conversely I'm not a pushover either.. On page 2 of the Proc thread I made a statement, 17 pages later some other posters did the math to prove what I simply stated 15 pages earlier. 20+ pages later someone went and created videos for the same thing. Am I gonna do the math ? No.. I am I gonna do the Videos ? No.. I am just doing some quick number juggling and looking at Mids and I get ball park numbers along with game play experience with various Arch Types. I am not the first one to say endurance is an issue for masterminds.. It is clear the Devs know.. Because they made some changes and they clearly stated they would be looking some more.. My point is Squeaky wheel gets the grease.. If you don't complain about it then they think reducing endurance and recharge on pet summoning fixed it.. It didn't. Yea it is great because now my Robot Traps doesn't have to worry about dropping toggles when resummoning pets during a bad moment in game Or have to wait YET AGAIN to resummon pets that just got RE-killed while summoning and Buffing.. But Masterminds have attack powers, so they should be usable, just like any other AT powers.. We shouldn't have to calculate the cost effectiveness ratio of a power vs endurance during a fight. When some Range player just went from T1 to T9 and back to T1 in seconds.

I am talking level 50, IO Build. Rule of thumb which I follow and well versed in is 2 to 1 for endurance vs usage. Basically your recovery has to be 2 points above the usage. I follow that all the time and make sure I am at or above this mark. Sometimes Incarnates help push you above this as well. Robot is a prime example. That Photon Grenade attack is very noticeable endurance wise. But Playing Traps for example I am straight up Tankermind.. Lay down my traps and mine(s) provoke and keep going through the cycle.. I'm at 45% Positional Defense cap with IOs and then the bots add their 14% and then Incarnates add whatever based on what is picked. Again that is my personal Robot Traps build. As you know everyone plays it different. I notice more endurance drain issues when it gets really bad.. FFG drops ( I forget to rebuff or Gets aggro ), then the pets drop due to less defenses as FFG is gone. Then I am scrambling to regain control. From what I recall when Masterminds first came out some initial numbers showed that their DPS was a bit high and they did this endurance thing to balance it out as a quick fix, which I get. But Endurance has ALWAYS been an issue for Masterminds even when the game was live and paid to play. But if you look at the Pistol attacks for Thugs you will see they clearly pay more for less. They do not get any of the buffs or debuffs for the gun attacks that others do. Not to get side tracked, but there should be a base cost formula, EG it should cost X endurance to create 1 DPS of damage. Then Benefit and Con to a power should add or subtract Endurance cost from the power. Then add on whatever endurance factor for each AT is needed. Unfortunately I do not think this is the case here in this game. I think it is more where should this Arch Type be within all these other Arch Types. Having the following level 50 IO toons; Scrappers, Blaster, Corruptors, Brutes, Masterminds, Petless Masterminds, Semi-Petless Masterminds, Defenders, Sentinels, Controllers, Arachnos Soldier. I can confidently say I am not feeling the Endurance drain on them and the fight is more fluid and exciting to some degree. Even using the NumKey Pad commands the Mastermind controls are still clunky to some degree. Sometimes you have to spam goto here a few times to make pets move and stay in a spot. Though the pet control changes are much, much better than they were before.. But I think as I mentioned originally it is the Resummoning of pets. The delay inherit in the summoning and buffing. The vulnerability of the pets during this time in which they are defenseless and can get yet killed off again.. The Lack luster of the Tier 1 pets DPS.. Out of the Mastermind Secondary's I only see 3 that can be used without pets and still clear out mobs affectively, though slowly. Traps with Trip Mine, Trick Arrow with Oil Slick, Storm with Lighting Storm. When you look at things like Dark Miasma Darkest Night cost of .65 endurance vs Corruptors .55, some might scoff at the .15 but all those .15 add up.. It is death by 1000 cuts. If Masterminds were so powerful you would see players steam rolling through missions with them. Again there would be talk on the forums.. Those talks are on the Brute forums. Tell me what AT needs to run away in a mission to find a safe spot to re summon pets to continue playing ? Simple answer None.. If we want to get technical that running away is down time. There is a DPS loss no matter how you look at it. Why did they remove nukes that crashed your Endurance ? Because it wasn't fun. Perfect example is Nova on Blasters. Who wants to use a power that is going drain your endurance and prevent endurance recovery for a short period of time you after you use it ? Not many.. It was the power used on the last fight on the map or even the first as long as you had room to run off or inspirations to cover you. Yes I know it can be used much more, but there was clearly a strategic process around using it which even including warning or telling the team you were using it NOT to waste it.. What happens is if you see it, eventually you start realizing these attack powers are not so much worth it. I would rather use the endurance if possible on some other power to keep my pets more alive.. You end up respecing out of your 1 to 3 attacks and just end up moving the pets around and commanding them to attack while you use what you have to keep the pets alive. It is no longer you and the pets.. It just the pets with you pointing them to fight something. Mind you if the Pets did do HUGE DAMAGE as some are stating, then I would have no issue being a glass cannon. But with Masterminds so many things can go wrong.. It is either you do well or fail miserably, there just is no in between.

First off do you play Masterminds ? Do you have any at level 50 ? You have some numbers on this huge damage compared to other Arch Types.. Mind you yes, I am sure Masterminds will do more damage then certain other builds on certain other Arch Types.. In a sense they were supposed to be the Tank for Red side. But your statement is false.. First off the Tier 1 pets are 2 levels lower then you( level 48 max). There are countless threads on suggestion forums that bring up the issues of the Tier one pets and the lack luster damage they do. That leaves you with 3 other pets. The Tier 2 are buffers with some damage.. So they are not all DPS as they have a buff in their attack cycle. They are 1 levels Lower than you ( 49 Max) The Tier 3 is equal level ( 50 max ) I do not know if incarnates level increase affects the pets, but I am pretty sure they don't. But let me point you to the homecoming wiki https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Mastermind https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Scrapper https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Brute https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Tanker Let me try Sentinel, everyone complains about their low DPS https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Sentinel You know let see controllers.. https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Controller - Ahh now we can see Masterminds slightly beat out Controllers in a DPS category. Yep you are right Huge Pet damage just beats out Controllers.. So lets continue with disproving your flippant statement. What happens when the pets die ? What AT has to wait just about 10 seconds to get back into combat ? Simple Answer None.. Again if you play Masterminds, then you clearly know what I am talking about.. I am 1000% positive if we pick a mission and have all the AT run through it on a 8/3 setting Masterminds completion time will NOT be high up there.. The simple rule is Mastermind must have his full set of pets at all times.. The reality is, if you play a Mastermind then you know there are certain things you just accept.. EG one Tier one dropping off and just running around with 5 bots.. The time wasted to summon one bot and rebuff is just not worth it. Again not because we are doing so much HUGE damage with our Tier one pets.. Its because the damage they do between 2 and 3 pets is negligible. If they did such HUGE damage you would be seeing tons of farming post and outdoor city maps for Masterminds to run through specifically created for Masterminds, but you don't..

Okay.. We have 2 different books. I don't really get this whole pious stance on Min and Maxing when it is clear that horse has already left the stable. I also don't get how having the option to not pick a T1 power that everyone thinks is so great is actually me Min and Maxing.. Technically by the comments I am actually Mining myself so I don't see the complaint here. Then you should be fighting to get IOs removed and Procs removed.. Please look at the 22+ page of the proc thread.. Mind you I am not even bringing up Incarnate powers as this thread evolves into a min and maxing and how should want entanglement arrow. So basically I want to remove a power several have posted is great and then I am also accused of min and maxing.. Talk about a witch hunt here.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding.. I reposted down below without changing the original post

Maybe I wasn't clear.. I am NOT SAYING REMOVE any powers.. I am NOT SAYING Swap out any powers for another.. I am asking the OPTION to pick the T2 instead of being forced into the T1 on Secondary. Again like we pretty much have on ALL Primary sets. I thought my original post was clear but I guess it was not.

First off you pointed me towards Page 2 in which pretty much showed players in favor of the change. But I am not asking to swap powers.. I am asking to have the OPTION to pick T2 instead of T1.. So you pointing to that thread to prove a point on what I am asking is incorrect.. As I am not asking that..

Its not min / max. It just picking up one power over another.. Cheesier ? I am not trying to cheese or get over. I am just looking for another option over the level 1 choices.. Not that I am offended by this but this is pretty weak accusation and tossing out labels for no reason.

This does not make sense.. You are saying that having the OPTION to pick OR NOT to pick a level one power over another is an issue ? Giving the player base a CHOICE is a bad thing ? Further my play style does not require entanglement arrow. I do great without it. Zero issues.. I would rather give that up over disruption arrow.

I am not saying to REMOVE the POWER.. I am saying remove the MUST pick this power.. 2 different things..

I really would love if the Mastermind 3 attack powers could please be looked at. I have a few toons that are full pets and attacks and the use of the attack powers is completely and totally noticeable endurance wise.. There is just no way for a Mastermind to go full tilt on his attack powers. There is no "Scrapperlock" moments.. That endurance warning after a few attacks brings you back to reality pretty fast. There just has to be more to Masterminds then telling pets to attack here and there while you toss out some buffs and debuffs gingerly as to not anger the Endurance gods.. The attack powers are over the top endurance wise and the attacks are neutered. I keep repeating this. Masterminds are paying more for less. Make them stack like the fighting pool maybe.. Each one benefits off the other.. I don't know the right answer but I know something is wrong. I have enough level 50 toons all IOed out to just notice the difference. Every other AT is like 0 to 60 in 3 seconds and Masterminds are getting there in 10 seconds. Add in the pet issues that make them vulnerable for 10 seconds. This stuff is just compounding on each other. Again I get the uniqueness of them, but you need to tweak them. The endurance changes on summoning, I am sorry were useless. Its like giving a toothpick to a toothless person. I love the arch type and I enjoy making petless mastermind builds and such. My Petless masterminds are much better equipped then my 6 pet mastermind. But I wish someone could understand the frustration of just playing them sometimes. For me it starts off with good intentions of creating the build and running the toon. Then after a while between the resummoning and upgrading of pets in combat that give you about 10 seconds of dead air in which they can do nothing but die again. Then doing your attacks like a magician telling the mobs don't look over there, Look over here at the Pistol/whip/laser gun in my hand. Which doesn't work. Which in the end sometimes requires you to RESUMMON again the missing bots ( depending on the circumstances). Healing the pet sometimes just becomes pointless because you either using inspirations that you could have or should have used/saved for yourself. End result it is almost best not to fight off the death because you are already using endurance to heal the pets if applicable which leaves you with less endurance when you need to resummon the pet.

Notice Assault bot keeps getting killed which means he is pulling aggro. I also notice my 3 attacks are KILLING my endurance.. This overall just sucks.. Because it starts to put you in realization again that Masterminds just can't use their attacks freely like everyone else can.. It gets to the point why have them. surely not all 3.. I took out Ice arrow and went with provoke.. But Assault Bot still getting killed. Gonna work with positioning a bit.. doing S/L farm on 8/3 ATM to work out the flying kinks.. Just feeling a lot of bot death compared to robot traps which is less

Well it is clear you are seeing some sort of DPS spike in the data and it is clear you are seeing what the builds are and of course that their are Procs within the build. I also get if the player were solo doing this then it would be really clear but on a team with all these buffs it is hard to pin point was it a perfect storm or something else. Couldn't the Devs recreate the build solo and then add components to see where the spike occurs ? EG was it the Kin buffs. Was it the combo of Victory rush plus kin buffs.. ETC..

Not really demanding.. This is done all the time work wise.. What are the issues.. What are the blockers.. How can we break down the issue into smaller bits. What teams will handle what.. Sort of like Agile and Sprints.. ETC.. But with 22 pages of what I am pretty sure is somewhat repetitive and combative posting. This thread started off as someone posting that the Devs have issues with Procs.. I asked where this was seen or told. But maybe this poster has some inside scoop.. Nonetheless it seems countless of players seem believe there is a proc issue thus 22 pages of god knows what at this point. Now a Devs jumps in that surely has some inside scoop. This might help narrow the focus of the topic. Maybe its not all the procs.. Maybe it is only 5 procs out of all the procs.. Maybe it is a combination of procs.. Maybe it is specific AT and builds that are an issue. Maybe then players might come up with some ideas that they might like. Otherwise we are spinning wheels on Perfect Zinger Proc when the real issue is Javelin Volley Proc. Again I don't see the issue here.. But I get it. I also don't know it all so this might be something I missed out on. I only see certain primary and secondary's benefitting from doing these Procmonster builds. I also understand that some of these are a series of attacks or chain of attacks. On a full team no one gets to dump a chain of attacks off on a group of mobs.. 3 defense cap players can hold up an entire team if the others were just in SO enhancers.. Everyone after 3 is just EXTRA DPS.. Further on a team you have no clue who is wiping out the mobs.. Unless that person is steam rolling ahead and playing solo. We could be driving a good conversation, but it might be the wrong conversation we are having..

Currently running this build. Bots giving 14% to Defenses so things like Energy and negative capped as well. Range is in the 50s. Endurance is pretty much covered without Incarnates but you can't go full tilt on the powers. You do need to eat blue inspirations if you are constantly firing off powers. What I do notice is aggro issues on the pets.. I am considering adding provoke to pull some of the aggro. But was also considering Aid other and Aid Self for some extra healing on the bots and even myself. But I can't have both Aid and Provoke due to power pool limitation. I would remove Ice arrow and Poison Gas Arrow. Was even considering removing Disruption arrow for Field Medic as that also gives and endurance buff.

Some of these MUST pick level 1 powers are just of no value at higher levels for some builds and players. Some builds I would love to have Aid Other and Aid Self but I can't without removing another better 1 slotted power from the build. I am sure many others have similar scenarios.

It would be great if you could just say these are the procs or issues we are having an issue with certain load out of procs.. Then the player base will have something to work from. Right now just seems like a lot of guessing. Or just post one proc at a time or combo at a time and let the player base give suggestions on those and then move onto the next, otherwise it will be a million post on different procs in one thread.

I am seeing this with Robot Masterminds. I don't know if other's are dealing with the same issue. If I am too high I get the message not in range When I go to upgrade I get the message Target in air This also follows in line with another suggestion I posted about the upgrade delay in which pets are locked out from fighting when being summoned and upgrading. I am pretty sure everyone would be upset if their T2, T6 and T8 ( which technically with upgrades becomes your T9) could not be used unless you had to be on the ground for about 10 seconds before using it and you cannot attack back during those 10 seconds. Which is pretty much how long it takes to summon and upgrade pets in which they cannot fight back. There are scenarios in which Masterminds are forced into a different game play then everyone else.

Invention sets and how they were given out really messed up the game group wise.. Before that if you wanted to level at a decent rate and fight all the different mobs you needed a team.. Everyone was LFT or creating a team.. You didn't need to ask anyone to join a team. It was just everyone was looking.. Further you were picking Arch Types and powersets.. You wanted an empath.. You wanted a kin.. You even wanted a force field.. Then AE came.. That fucked this game even more.. It was amazing that you could get from 1 to 50 in a few hours when farming AE was introduced as they had no cap or limit on it.. Then Incarnates.. They were good for the Incarnate missions.. But beyond that those powers put you in god mode.. The only great thing about them is it helped me build my Petless masterminds.. The endurance redux powers and Endurance recovery powers allows a Petless mastermind to be like a normal level 50 character.. Yes less DPS but can do 3/8 settings and kill AV ( tested on inferno ) Now honestly I just power level every toon to 50.. I have enough money during the power level runs to build out the character. 30+ assorted IOed level 50 toons and about 8 Petless masterminds in that mix.. Again they are IOed out doing 3/8 mission settings..

Don't defenders get a 25% damage bonus while solo ?

This is big You are more likely to survive if you know how to "bug out" Rommy and the nictus on the last mission. Your goal is to prevent the nictus from locking on to Rommy, so that they don't follow him around. To do that, you need to go to the edge of the cutscene without triggering it. Once triggered, you need to get to Rommy's spot before he does. Get there, wait a beat or two, grab Rommy aggro, and hope the nictus dont follow. Didn't know about that

Really would be nice for Traps Trip Mine to not be interrupted similar to what was done with Device. Even at Defense cap it can become impossible to place a Trip mine during a fight. Further Traps being such a stationary build it would be helpful to give it some DPS. Or remove the endurance loss from it on a failed attempt ?

You know conversely I have a Sentinel DP/ Ninjitsu with Ninja Tool Mastery to have a sword so I can really relate to this. Even if you kept the DPS just give us options to choose a weapon instead of a Shuriken

AR Device if you go Range cap hover blaster works well. You can pick up Burnout and have 3 gun drones for a short time. DP Device fun now that they fixed gun drone aggro issue. You can get melee and range capped on this as you need it because of HOB being melee.. TRAPS anything will almost give you defense cap with SO.. Further with this you don't have to go so much easy mode.. 8/2 is doable or even 8/1 once you have your defense slotted

Im one of those fire brute farmers.. It can be boring for sure..