Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Zolgar]

Titan Weapons, while powerful as hell, I feel is a balanced set. The endurance costs are intense, you -need- to build in endurance tricks, and even then you often struggle until you're fully built up.

 

The recharge times are such that without building for permahaste you'll often be forced to use some of your weaker attacks.

 

The momentum mechanic requires more focused play than any other melee set. If you don't use your momentum right, Titan is kinda craptastic.

 

When paired with anything else that requires active use, it's got a steeper learning curve than any melee set, and most other sets in general.

 

It's a strong set, yes. You can work around some of the issues with a good build, yes. However, it is not so overwhelmingly powerful that it needs to be nerfed.

[Snakebit]

2 hours ago, Zolgar said:

Titan Weapons, while powerful as hell, I feel is a balanced set. The endurance costs are intense, you -need- to build in endurance tricks, and even then you often struggle until you're fully built up.

 

The recharge times are such that without building for permahaste you'll often be forced to use some of your weaker attacks.

 

The momentum mechanic requires more focused play than any other melee set. If you don't use your momentum right, Titan is kinda craptastic.

 

When paired with anything else that requires active use, it's got a steeper learning curve than any melee set, and most other sets in general.

 

It's a strong set, yes. You can work around some of the issues with a good build, yes. However, it is not so overwhelmingly powerful that it needs to be nerfed.

I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't really care one way or the other about TW. I think the pylon times demonstrate clearly that is seriously outperforms the rest of the melee sets, but meh. It sucks to play. 

 

But this post doesn't really cover the reasons not to nerf it.

 

A LOT of powersets drain intensely. Especially if you compare damage/effect to end cost from those high cost sets to the damage output of TW.  High recharge timers aren't relevant, again compared to other long recharge powers in other sets that make you wait minutes.  I think the learning curve bit is not a reason not to make a balance pass on the numbers. Dual blades has a pretty steep learning curve that lasts through the 40's and it sucks wind compared to TW. 

 

It has double the DPS of some of the other melee sets. Double.  And all you have to do is figure out the best order to click the buttons to get it.

 

Again, I don't care one way or the other, I don't like the set and will likely never play it past what I already have (which isn't even 30). I'm just saying that the arguments here are kind of poorly considered. 

 

 

[krj12]

After the double whammy tanks took back in the day, with both ED and GDN,  I'm not particularly inclined to nerf any powerset or AT, unless it's game breaking.  Which this isn't.

 

[Haijinx]

58 minutes ago, cejmp said:

I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't really care one way or the other about TW. I think the pylon times demonstrate clearly that is seriously outperforms the rest of the melee sets, but meh. It sucks to play. 

 

But this post doesn't really cover the reasons not to nerf it.

 

A LOT of powersets drain intensely. Especially if you compare damage/effect to end cost from those high cost sets to the damage output of TW.  High recharge timers aren't relevant, again compared to other long recharge powers in other sets that make you wait minutes.  I think the learning curve bit is not a reason not to make a balance pass on the numbers. Dual blades has a pretty steep learning curve that lasts through the 40's and it sucks wind compared to TW. 

 

It has double the DPS of some of the other melee sets. Double.  And all you have to do is figure out the best order to click the buttons to get it.

 

Again, I don't care one way or the other, I don't like the set and will likely never play it past what I already have (which isn't even 30). I'm just saying that the arguments here are kind of poorly considered. 

 

 

Need to make sure the double is a fair comparison.  Both with the same secondary, same incarnates, similar builds, etc.  

 

Don't see many non /bio TW times for example.   

 

Also there are suggestion the way the pylon regens actually becomes a consideration at some point.  Meaning the DPS might actually be lower than advertised.  

 

I made a TW scrapper to try these things out, right now for ST in real play my MA stalker blows it away.  

 

I'm hoping the TW catches up as i get to 50 and get a more complete build.   But definitely during the level climb the stalker was like a race car from level 7 on with ATOs slotted 

 

At 34 TW is great AOE, but ST is just okay.  I feel like I need a lot more recharge and end recovery. 

 

 

[Snakebit]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Need to make sure the double is a fair comparison.  Both with the same secondary, same incarnates, similar builds, etc.  

 

Don't see many non /bio TW times for example.   

 

Also there are suggestion the way the pylon regens actually becomes a consideration at some point.  Meaning the DPS might actually be lower than advertised.  

 

I made a TW scrapper to try these things out, right now for ST in real play my MA stalker blows it away.  

 

I'm hoping the TW catches up as i get to 50 and get a more complete build.   But definitely during the level climb the stalker was like a race car from level 7 on with ATOs slotted 

 

At 34 TW is great AOE, but ST is just okay.  I feel like I need a lot more recharge and end recovery. 

 

 

Whatever the issue may be with the pylon numbers, they will be the same issues across all sets. If TW is inflated, so is claws. 

 

I think you're right about having to look at TW as a whole and not on a power per power basis because of the way the performance changes during momentum. You don't get those extreme shifts with most other sets.  But you put a spine/bio next to a TW/Bio and we know who's doing the most damage. And it isn't even subtle. 

 

Stalkers outperform scrappers for damage across the board, no matter what set it is. Except maybe Elec/SD. And I think a good elec/sd player on a stalker would outperform a more casual player (like me) on a Scrapper. I like scrappers better is the only reason I play them and not stalkers. But I might be in a pardigm shift as I've tried 3 stalkers and 3 scrappers lately and I'm leaning toward the Stalkers. At some point I'm going to build an AV killer and I think it's probably going to be a Stalker for the DPS. 

 

My spine bio has about 270-280 recharge. He's a monster. But he can't even sit in the boat with a TW/Bio. Ran Market Crash with a TW/Bio and it was pretty impressive the damage he did. 

 

I can see where the people who played (not farmed) a TW to 50 would be heated about a nerf. If a change is warranted for the sake of "balance", I can't imagine buffing all the other sets instead of TW getting the hammer though. I feel the same about Bio. In my opinion, Bio is far and away the best overall secondary for scrappers in terms of durability, flexibility, and ease of use. Yes, it's active and clicky, but you get not 1, not 2, but 3 self heals. Recovery from 2 different powers. Super S/L resists, reasonable defense, AND a damage aura. Looking only through the lens of "set balance", Bio should be nerfed before TW. Once /bio gets enough oompf to eat an alpha and not go down instantly, it's pretty much game over. And it takes not a set bonus one to be really good. 

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, cejmp said:

Whatever the issue may be with the pylon numbers, they will be the same issues across all sets. If TW is inflated, so is claws. 

 

I think you're right about having to look at TW as a whole and not on a power per power basis because of the way the performance changes during momentum. You don't get those extreme shifts with most other sets.  But you put a spine/bio next to a TW/Bio and we know who's doing the most damage. And it isn't even subtle. 

 

Stalkers outperform scrappers for damage across the board, no matter what set it is. Except maybe Elec/SD. And I think a good elec/sd player on a stalker would outperform a more casual player (like me) on a Scrapper. I like scrappers better is the only reason I play them and not stalkers. But I might be in a pardigm shift as I've tried 3 stalkers and 3 scrappers lately and I'm leaning toward the Stalkers. At some point I'm going to build an AV killer and I think it's probably going to be a Stalker for the DPS. 

 

My spine bio has about 270-280 recharge. He's a monster. But he can't even sit in the boat with a TW/Bio. Ran Market Crash with a TW/Bio and it was pretty impressive the damage he did. 

 

I can see where the people who played (not farmed) a TW to 50 would be heated about a nerf. If a change is warranted for the sake of "balance", I can't imagine buffing all the other sets instead of TW getting the hammer though. I feel the same about Bio. In my opinion, Bio is far and away the best overall secondary for scrappers in terms of durability, flexibility, and ease of use. Yes, it's active and clicky, but you get not 1, not 2, but 3 self heals. Recovery from 2 different powers. Super S/L resists, reasonable defense, AND a damage aura. Looking only through the lens of "set balance", Bio should be nerfed before TW. Once /bio gets enough oompf to eat an alpha and not go down instantly, it's pretty much game over. And it takes not a set bonus one to be really good. 

No, its not the same.

 

If you have an increasingly non linear response as you get faster and faster, it most definitely will not effect the faster and the slower times the same.  

 

Basically the relativity problem.  

 

 

[Haijinx]

As to the stalker thing, i mentioned that since they do the 2nd best of melee ATs after TW/bios on the pylon.  So far though its not even close in real play while leveling,  ST the stalker was much better.  Also the stalker was my most recent project before this.

 

I think my STJ scrapper may have been better ST too, or at least felt faster.  But its been a lot longer since I leveled that one up (june)  so its less fresh.  Regardless its probably related to the IO solvable issues, STJ is less end hungry and recharge needy.

 

I suspect once i get hasten and 5x lotg, and more recovery, the TW ST will go way up.  Since its bursty right now.  

Edited September 11, 2019 by Haijinx

[Mr. Vee]

I'd not nerf TW. Sure it's a bit overtuned with a high damage secondary but that's balanced by the speed. On good teams it feels like a nuking blaster when build momentum is up and an old-style stalker when it's not - i.e. maybe an attack or two before the team's moved on to the next mob.

[Zenex]

The best Nerf to TW is a fixed Energy Melee = D. To be honest I feel like any nerf to TW will get the same response as the rage nerf and ET nerf no matter how small.

[DSorrow]

9 hours ago, cejmp said:

It has double the DPS of some of the other melee sets. Double.  And all you have to do is figure out the best order to click the buttons to get it.

But is it double across the board or only in a very niche scenario such as a Pylon (immobile punching bag + IO'd to the gills character built specifically for fast pylon times)? How does the relative performance change if you take out incarnates, swap to SOs only or even just uncommon IO sets? How does the choice of secondary influence the relative difference? Besides, pylon time as a metric is pretty one dimensional because it represents such a niche environment. I don't see anybody claiming Spines/ or /Fire is OP because Spines/Fire Brutes are great in fire farms.

 

IIRC, my TW/Elec Brute got around 4 minutes on the pylon test which is a great time, but nowhere near exceptional. This is with a purples out the wazoo incarnate build for general gameplay. When it comes to gameplay that's not beating down on AVs, I have to echo @Veelectric Boogaloo:

4 hours ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

On good teams it feels like a nuking blaster when build momentum is up and an old-style stalker when it's not - i.e. maybe an attack or two before the team's moved on to the next mob.

 

Basically I think TW is a great set, but I've yet to see evidence that it's overpowered. Better than some others? Sure. Significantly better than some in specific settings? Definitely, but isn't that the point of having different powersets available to us? I think we have more evidence for buffing the sets lagging behind.

[EyeLuvBooks]

I have a few points to make:

1) Can we PLEASE stop using Pylon times as the metric for measuring a powerset when I'm willing to bet a good percentage of the player base hasn't even been IN the RWZ? If we want to look at how a set performs we need to look at it across the whole spectrum of play, not a few edge cases.

 

2) I came into the game right after ED and I remember people leaving in DROVES because the characters they'd spent hundreds or thousands of hours on had been castrated. I'm not saying that ED wasn't necessary but I feel that it was poorly implemented and I don't want to see the same over-reaction here.

 

3) I agree with several other posters here that would rather boost the sets at the bottom of the list rather than nerf the ones at the top.

[Warlawk]

10 hours ago, cejmp said:

I think the pylon times demonstrate clearly that is seriously outperforms the rest of the melee sets, but meh

I believe there was a Merc/Storm MM that got down around 60 seconds for a pylon kill (I want to say 63 seconds) but that sure as hell doesn't make either of those sets particularly good on MMs, it just means there is a single niche where the mechanics of those sets leverage interactions with IOs and Incarnates to ludicrous levels.

 

That's all pylon testing is, and TW just happens to be particularly good at that very specific niche. Rend armor to open (with scrapper ato+50% proc) and you're away to the races. TW is a great set, and certainly a powerful one, but I don't think it needs a nerf by any means. I have one, I don't play it much. I see them around, but not as often as I see some of the more iconic sets like SS so they aren't exactly taking over the game.

 

I've never seen anyone complain in a group about feeling left behind by how amazing someone else's character is. It's popular but far from dominant. Pylon times mean nothing to actual game play, don't use them to call for nerfs. Better yet, don't call for nerfs but absolutely don't do so on the basis of pylon times.

[molten_dragon]

18 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

3) I agree with several other posters here that would rather boost the sets at the bottom of the list rather than nerf the ones at the top.

While I agree, in general, that nerfs should be done only with great caution and only when absolutely needed, I'd like to point out a couple of counterpoints to this.  Because I've seen about half the people in this thread post "Just boost the underperforming sets"

 

1.  Devs time is limited, and making changes to several sets is more work than making changes to one set.  Right or wrong, nerfing TW is less work than boosting all of the underperforming melee sets.

2.  At a certain point, you have to say "Here's the power level we're going to balance around, anything below this should be brought up, and anything above should be brought down."  Because if you just keep rebalancing around whatever the most powerful available set is, you end up with a lot of power creep.  Something this game is already intimately familiar with.  We're already at the point where a lot of endgame content has become fairly trivial even for modestly optimized characters.  The only other option is to increase the difficulty of the content, and that's a hell of a lot more work than rebalancing the numbers of a few powersets.

[nihilii]

17 hours ago, Force Redux said:

No nerfing. Just boost the low performers.

You would need to boost every other powerset. The gap is universal and it's sizeable.

Arguments TW isn't overpowered because "all we have is Pylon data" fail to convince me. Play TW! You'd have to be blind not to see it. TW has everything, and it has it all: superb AoE damage. Fantastic ST damage. Native -RES. Native -DEF, for -RES proc slotting. +DEF Divine Avalanche-type power - as a *cone*. It's a beast on SOs. It's a monster on IOs.

 

There is no performance reason to play anything but TW on scrappers, and no performance reason other than farming to play anything but TW on brutes.

What TW has, however, is balance by annoyance with Momentum. Does it work? For me, the annoyance is enough I don't play TW too much. Some players power through the annoyance for the sake of uber performance. Some others enjoy the mechanical challenge. So that's a possible argument for the current state of things.

But let's be honest, TW is mostly a Pay2Win relic from the Paragon Stores. It's not even remotely balanced from a numbers perspective.

Edit: btw, if that's not clear, I'm entirely down with the "buff everything else" approach over "nerf TW". 😉 Super inefficient for the devs, but wonderful for someone who loves rerolling.

Edited September 11, 2019 by nihilii

[Infinitum]

So the best response to nerf TW is because of limited time to make the other sets feel better?  lol

 

That's nonsense too, the other sets will still be underperformers just with another added to the mix.

 

TW is very niche as it is, it's not even stealing any business from the underperforming sets id be willing to wager.  You either love TW or hate it because it's tricky, make it worse and it would outright suck.

 

But hey as long as it sucks with the rest of them right?

 

Thats the exact same logic (if you call that logic) that got EM ruined.

[Steampunkette]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

So the best response to nerf TW is because of limited time to make the other sets feel better?  lol

 

That's nonsense too, the other sets will still be underperformers just with another added to the mix.

 

TW is very niche as it is, it's not even stealing any business from the underperforming sets id be willing to wager.  You either love TW or hate it because it's tricky, make it worse and it would outright suck.

 

But hey as long as it sucks with the rest of them right?

 

Thats the exact same logic (if you call that logic) that got EM ruined.

 

Take a look at my proposal upthread. It would have the same DPA and DPE but 10% less DPS during Momentum Windows.

 

Would that make TWs Suck?

 

It would still have the best ST and AoE damage availability of any set, and do so with the same increased End costs it's been fighting against, but Momentum would last a teensy bit longer and attacks in Momentum would take a teensy bit longer.

 

Also worth noting: Not every change to try and bring things closer to parity is going to result in an EM style Nerf. I really wish people would stop Slippery Sloping every damned time. Also, saying "the other powersets suck and this one is good" is just a power creep view of "The sets are mostly balanced, but this one's an outlier on the high end". Like an Overton Window of Game Balance.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Infinitum]

26 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

Take a look at my proposal upthread. It would have the same DPA and DPE but 10% less DPS during Momentum Windows.

 

Would that make TWs Suck?

 

It would still have the best ST and AoE damage availability of any set, and do so with the same increased End costs it's been fighting against, but Momentum would last a teensy bit longer and attacks in Momentum would take a teensy bit longer.

 

Also worth noting: Not every change to try and bring things closer to parity is going to result in an EM style Nerf. I really wish people would stop Slippery Sloping every damned time. Also, saying "the other powersets suck and this one is good" is just a power creep view of "The sets are mostly balanced, but this one's an outlier on the high end". Like an Overton Window of Game Balance.

Well that's how it usually ends up.  And for no reason, seriously answer this what in game is TW breaking?

[Steampunkette]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Well that's how it usually ends up.  And for no reason, seriously answer this what in game is TW breaking?

No. That's not how it "Usually" ends up. Superstrength got Rage 'Nerfed' with the Crash that only came into effect on this server. Guess what? Still the most popular Tanker Secondary by about 7,000 over it's second place competitor Titan Weapons which is at 5k players. And for Brutes it's edged out from the number 1 spot by about 300 players. Titan Weapons takes Third Place with 4k less players than Superstrength.

 

Most sets get nerfed and most people just roll with it. Even the oft mourned Energy Melee is solidly "Lower Middle" on tankers and brutes for how often it's played.

 

Energy Melee's nerfs were a MASSIVE EXCEPTION because it was a huge outlier on ST damage on Live. It was incredibly unusual and so was the nerfing.

 

And as someone who has only ever rolled one Titan Weapons character who is currently only at 22... Nothing Gamebreaking about it. But it's certainly the most damaging primary powerset I've ever played on a Brute by a significant margin. Specifically the two low-level Cones that just -completely- wreck even con spawns. I love it to pieces!

 

But I wouldn't mind a tiny nerf to DPS by increasing the duration of momentum and slowing the speedy attacks by a tenth of a second. I'd still be doing more than enough damage to feel like I'm a scary beast.

[Infinitum]

49 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

No. That's not how it "Usually" ends up. Superstrength got Rage 'Nerfed' with the Crash that only came into effect on this server. Guess what? Still the most popular Tanker Secondary by about 7,000 over it's second place competitor Titan Weapons which is at 5k players. And for Brutes it's edged out from the number 1 spot by about 300 players. Titan Weapons takes Third Place with 4k less players than Superstrength.

 

Most sets get nerfed and most people just roll with it. Even the oft mourned Energy Melee is solidly "Lower Middle" on tankers and brutes for how often it's played.

 

Energy Melee's nerfs were a MASSIVE EXCEPTION because it was a huge outlier on ST damage on Live. It was incredibly unusual and so was the nerfing.

 

And as someone who has only ever rolled one Titan Weapons character who is currently only at 22... Nothing Gamebreaking about it. But it's certainly the most damaging primary powerset I've ever played on a Brute by a significant margin. Specifically the two low-level Cones that just -completely- wreck even con spawns. I love it to pieces!

 

But I wouldn't mind a tiny nerf to DPS by increasing the duration of momentum and slowing the speedy attacks by a tenth of a second. I'd still be doing more than enough damage to feel like I'm a scary beast.

Yes.... It is.

 

SS is probably the most popular rolled out until they shelve and move to something else because the change was so harsh.  I have one too level 50 alpha slotted even but never play it because of the rage crash honestly.

 

If you don't even have a TW rolled to 50 how can possibly have any informed opinion on how to nerf it based on that tiny snapshot of experience?  I can wreck even con spawns with my kin/rad defender so that doesn't prove anything either.

 

Again, this pales in comparison to what controllers and a team of controllers can do.

 

All these suggestions to nerf TW and nerf Brutes is just busybody work for people that dont really play the game to enjoy it but to nitpick it for no reason.

 

Do the apex tf with a TW and get back to me how that long animation or chain works out when the flaming blads of death catch you mid animation.  Theres as much downside to TW as the upside.  Extreme endurance usage, long start animations, necessity for high recharge, getting caught in a alpha burst damage in mid first animation at the wrong time.

 

IMO my psi melee and rad melee characters have the most balance and appeal, they are slightly slower in demolishing mobs than TW but can take out bosses faster.  And they are far less niche than TW, nerfingTW would destroy it like EM because it has ONE thing going for it.

 

The people that rolled EM - also me - mainly did it for theme and nostalgia, guess what another lvl 50 on the shelf because the long animations ruin its schtick and make it borderline unplayable.

 

I dont have numbers to back any of this up, but I'm the common person on the street playing the game every night with all types, and that is how i see it.  Theres nothing broken feeling about any of it.  Occasionally even being overpowered we get our tails handed to us.  Thats fun too actually.

 

Pylon tests are useless in a vacuum they dont move, and their return attack is predictable.  It has almost nothing compared to routine gameplay at any level.  They should never be used for points of balance.

[Snakebit]

I havent read where anyone is saying that pylon dps is the only metric.

 

It is only *A* metric and I'm pretty sure that anyone actually posting in this thread already knows that it is only any indicator of relative performances. Trying to stifle pylon time as that indicator is just silly. It's been said and said. Everyone knows.

 

Someone should solo Market Crash on every possible combo so people can dismiss that too.

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, cejmp said:

I havent read where anyone is saying that pylon dps is the only metric.

 

It is only *A* metric and I'm pretty sure that anyone actually posting in this thread already knows that it is only any indicator of relative performances. Trying to stifle pylon time as that indicator is just silly. It's been said and said. Everyone knows.

 

Someone should solo Market Crash on every possible combo so people can dismiss that too.

Yeah, I see you saying that yet it pops up EVERYWHERE as if a beacon for every pariah Set or AT with a cause to try to nerf something that's actually working well and as intended.  My fire tank sucks at pylon testing but can clear a mob as fast as my TW brute can.

 

I guess when the Rikti pylons grow legs and start spawning in mobs then it may matter to how 99 percent of the rest of the game is played.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Infinitum

[Steampunkette]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Yes.... It is.

 

SS is probably the most popular rolled out until they shelve and move to something else because the change was so harsh.  I have one too level 50 alpha slotted even but never play it because of the rage crash honestly.

 

If you don't even have a TW rolled to 50 how can possibly have any informed opinion on how to nerf it based on that tiny snapshot of experience?  I can wreck even con spawns with my kin/rad defender so that doesn't prove anything either.

 

Again, this pales in comparison to what controllers and a team of controllers can do.

 

All these suggestions to nerf TW and nerf Brutes is just busybody work for people that dont really play the game to enjoy it but to nitpick it for no reason.

 

Do the apex tf with a TW and get back to me how that long animation or chain works out when the flaming blads of death catch you mid animation.  Theres as much downside to TW as the upside.  Extreme endurance usage, long start animations, necessity for high recharge, getting caught in a alpha burst damage in mid first animation at the wrong time.

 

IMO my psi melee and rad melee characters have the most balance and appeal, they are slightly slower in demolishing mobs than TW but can take out bosses faster.  And they are far less niche than TW, nerfingTW would destroy it like EM because it has ONE thing going for it.

 

The people that rolled EM - also me - mainly did it for theme and nostalgia, guess what another lvl 50 on the shelf because the long animations ruin its schtick and make it borderline unplayable.

 

I dont have numbers to back any of this up, but I'm the common person on the street playing the game every night with all types, and that is how i see it.  Theres nothing broken feeling about any of it.  Occasionally even being overpowered we get our tails handed to us.  Thats fun too actually.

 

Pylon tests are useless in a vacuum they dont move, and their return attack is predictable.  It has almost nothing compared to routine gameplay at any level.  They should never be used for points of balance.

No. It isn't what "usually" happens. What usually happens is a handful of die-hard fans of the power or powerset being nerfed flock to the forums to defend it and 90% of the rest of the population doesn't care enough to wade into the forum and discuss it. Most of the time even the most severe nerf just puts the powerset back in-line with other powersets used by the same archetypes.

 

There have been a handful of situations where it was too extreme. Energy Melee being the most egregious one.

 

And no. I haven't played Titan Weapons to 50. But I also don't have to in order to tell you that it's outperforming at 22. Your maxed out Kin/Rad can destroy even con spawns at 50 but I'm doing it at 22. My other brutes (Superstrength, Kinetic Melee, Katana, Dark Melee, and yeah, even Energy Melee) didn't start wiping out even level spawns at the speed the TW character does until they were in their 30s or early 40s. Sooner if I started slotting them up before that point with attuned Sets.

 

Now tell me how fast an Empath/Energy wipes out spawns. Or FF/Dark. Your example of 'Anyone can wipe out even-con spawns!' relied on a major damage outlier for Defenders through Kin. It's a liiiiiiittle on the telling side!

 

Reducing the amount of DPS that TW does in their Momentum by .5 seconds worth of DPS spread wouldn't "DESTROY" them. That's a logical fallacy appeal to emotion. 

 

And Pylons aren't perfect. But they are the single best test we have to determine a powerset's single target DPS because they're tough, they don't fight back hard enough to waste time responding to the damage, and they don't try to run. Yeah, in a mission enemies run away, or reposition, or whatever to cost you maximum possible DPS. That affects -all- attack sets, though, and TW less than most because it has larger AoE to hit things in (Both in range and width).

 

 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

No. It isn't what "usually" happens. What usually happens is a handful of die-hard fans of the power or powerset being nerfed flock to the forums to defend it and 90% of the rest of the population doesn't care enough to wade into the forum and discuss it. Most of the time even the most severe nerf just puts the powerset back in-line with other powersets used by the same archetypes.

 

There have been a handful of situations where it was too extreme. Energy Melee being the most egregious one.

 

And no. I haven't played Titan Weapons to 50. But I also don't have to in order to tell you that it's outperforming at 22. Your maxed out Kin/Rad can destroy even con spawns at 50 but I'm doing it at 22. My other brutes (Superstrength, Kinetic Melee, Katana, Dark Melee, and yeah, even Energy Melee) didn't start wiping out even level spawns at the speed the TW character does until they were in their 30s or early 40s. Sooner if I started slotting them up before that point with attuned Sets.

 

Now tell me how fast an Empath/Energy wipes out spawns. Or FF/Dark. Your example of 'Anyone can wipe out even-con spawns!' relied on a major damage outlier for Defenders through Kin. It's a liiiiiiittle on the telling side!

 

Reducing the amount of DPS that TW does in their Momentum by .5 seconds worth of DPS spread wouldn't "DESTROY" them. That's a logical fallacy appeal to emotion. 

 

And Pylons aren't perfect. But they are the single best test we have to determine a powerset's single target DPS because they're tough, they don't fight back hard enough to waste time responding to the damage, and they don't try to run. Yeah, in a mission enemies run away, or reposition, or whatever to cost you maximum possible DPS. That affects -all- attack sets, though, and TW less than most because it has larger AoE to hit things in (Both in range and width).

 

 

My kin rad is a lvl 25 common io slotted with 2 attack powers.  Just so you know, my point is even level isn't what you should judge whether a powersets is overpowered or not.

 

I almost want to call b.s. on you too because TW is barely playable until you have a full attack set, recharge and some way to mitigate the extreme endurance usage until about lvl 30 when you start filling in powers.  You must be hitting rest between all those spawns just to keep going.

 

Pylon tests feel nothing like playing the game feels.  Like I said my fire tank is extremely weak on pylon tests but feels overpowered in regular game play.

 

You have no reason to nerf TW outside of drawing attention to yourself for some reason and thats the bottom line.

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Do the apex tf with a TW

It just so happens the current speed record for a solo apex TF is held by a TW/bio scrapper.

 

[Steampunkette]

38 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

My kin rad is a lvl 25 common io slotted with 2 attack powers.  Just so you know, my point is even level isn't what you should judge whether a powersets is overpowered or not.

 

I almost want to call b.s. on you too because TW is barely playable until you have a full attack set, recharge and some way to mitigate the extreme endurance usage until about lvl 30 when you start filling in powers.  You must be hitting rest between all those spawns just to keep going.

 

Pylon tests feel nothing like playing the game feels.  Like I said my fire tank is extremely weak on pylon tests but feels overpowered in regular game play.

 

You have no reason to nerf TW outside of drawing attention to yourself for some reason and thats the bottom line.

Every third spawn or so. Five or six if I have a couple Catch a Breaths.

 

Unlike most people I start slotting for End ASAP. One Accuracy, then enough End Reduction to bring the total under 10, then damage. If the power is under 10 but above 5 it gets 1 End Reduction Enhancement. My defensive toggles (Energy) have no end slotting in them, and instead just 3 straight Defense Enhancements except my Mez Protection which gets 2 End Reducers.

 

Yeah, my TWs character sucks wind. But she WRECKS everything I put her up against. And she looks -amazing- doing it. Particularly with the KB/D in Titan Sweep! My attack chain is nonexistent. My attack priority is Cones-Follow Through-Rend Armor-Crushing Blow. Build up some Fury during that first Momentum barrage, pop Build Momentum, finish killing everyone. And of course if BM is on CD I just keep following my priority.

 

And to be clear: I three man team her with a Grav/Time and a Beasts/TA on +0x7. At 22. We -were- doing x5, but then I got SOs and we increased the diff. (The Grav/Time doesn't have SOs, yet)