Focused Feedback: Rage

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, johua said:

But if it absolutely has to have a crash, I would rather not have it at all. Just buff the other powers so the set isn't reliant on rage and swap it out for a buildup.

No thanks, I picked Super Strength because I wanted to play Super Strength, not some other set.

[csr]

15 minutes ago, Vanden said:

No thanks, I picked Super Strength because I wanted to play Super Strength, not some other set.

I agree with this.  The one change that I would absolutely NOT want is Rage becoming Build Up.

 

In fact, among the options discussed, I'd take what CP has on the table over the alternatives.  I'd rather have more differences and more circumstances that can be leveraged (as stacked Rage and crash mitigation does), rather than more of the same.

[Haijinx]

This proposal eliminates the entire crash except the endurance cost, which is front loaded. 

 

People who wanted a crashless rage are basically done minus some math or click discipline.  Sure its a little clutzy, but on the live server you have a full crash right now.

 

Those who wanted crashless double rage?  I mean cmon who did you all think you were fooling? 

 

 

 

[Myrmidon]

39 minutes ago, johua said:

I think that crashes in general are an unnecessary punishment indicative of poor game design choices by the live devs earlier in the game's life, and it was pretty evident that they were moving away from punishing mechanics such as crashes toward the end of live, given the blaster update.

So, yes. I think it should have no drawbacks that can't be mitigated. 

 

And that’s why I say that a no crash, single buff with refreshing duration while stacking (and monitoring SS for further damage boosts if necessary) option would be the way to go.

[johua]

Just now, Myrmidon said:

And that’s why I say that a no crash, single buff with refreshing duration while stacking (and monitoring SS for further damage boosts if necessary) option would be the way to go.

I wouldn't be opposed to that.

[Megajoule]

40 minutes ago, Vanden said:

No thanks, I picked Super Strength because I wanted to play Super Strength, not some other set.

I have never liked Rage, never thought it "essential" to Super Strength (in a flavor sense) - more something I had to grit my teeth and endure, or work around as much as possible - and would miss it not at all if it went away.

 

Just because it's been around since the beginning doesn't mean it was good, or the I0 devs knew what they were doing.  Remember Unyielding Stance?  Non-stacking armors?  I can go on.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Megajoule

[csr]

7 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

And that’s why I say that a no crash, single buff with refreshing duration while stacking (and monitoring SS for further damage boosts if necessary) option would be the way to go.

What does a "single buff [...] while stacking" mean?  In the context of what others have been saying, that's a contradiction.  The rest of what you say seems to imply you mean "without" stacking.

[Major_Decoy]

I've only played one super strength tank to fifty, but it was my primary. Major Decoy was Invulnerability/Super Strength, and I never took rage. I used to make the suggestion that they should replace Rage with a passives because I'm kind of a selfish bastard. I like passives. I wanted more of them. I still like the idea of a melee character with no toggles and no click defenses (but then I remember how handy taunt auras are).

 

I have a new Super Strength tank now. I wasn't going to take Rage, I don't like the crash. If this change goes through and works as intended, I actually might take Rage.

[Vindicator]

7 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

Hell I would even vote with single rage, no crash and Jab and Punch moved up to have better damage.

+1.

[Golden Azrael]

On 9/11/2019 at 1:10 AM, johua said:

Honest question: why does it need to be punishing to any builds?

Super strength has three (arguably four) good powers in it and I doubt it would be the GOAT if you just straight-up removed the crash, especially in a world where Titan Weapons exists and doesn't have any punishments attached to it.

You have a point there.

 

I tried a beta tank Rad/Titans L50 last night with incarnates.  *Insane.  

 

It puts SS with Rage and something middling like....Energy Melee firmly in the shade.  (But, hey, they put teh DMG in to woo back the subs, right?  You can't blame them for that even if it is hard wired game breaking?  Loads of AoEs, loads of damage....loads...just loads.  A revelation to me.  But it's fun.)

 

That said.  'Rage.'

 

I've got this theory that ALL tanks should have it.  As an 'in built' 'press button' to replace 'Build Up.'

 

Stone melee, Energy melee.  Others.  They seem archaic compared to eg. Street fighter or especially Titan.  Just old fashioned.  You can tell they were the earlier sets.

 

The simple solution is just to swap out Build for Rage.  One press for another.  That would immediately give to hit and teh damage to ALL tanks for peak battle situations.

 

To make it more engaging.  I'd like a 'Build Up Rage' bar (ala Domi) to build up the rage which you can 'press' for 2 mins.  And it wouldn't take that long to build it up again as an aggro' magnate.  So it wouldn't be down for that long.  No crash.  No nothing.  With IO sets?  Perma.

 

As a defence brute?  My shields/ss has enough problems.  Started with so so defence (23%) at L50 is pretty rubbish.  And the res' is pretty so so.  Sure, it's not a tank.  But what I'm trying to point out is that once Rage crashed it takes my 23% which is crep enough down to 3%.  it's auto to death power.  You can't quite 'get going' with it.  You just build up your fury bar then you have to duck out of battle.  Rage feels punitive.

 

As a compromise?  The 2nd stack could crash.  But the 1st stack left untouched.  That's a good idea to start with.  To get it to really compete with Titans?  2-3 stacks?  (I recall on live I could briefly get 3 stacks...)  And because I was defence capped the defence nerf crash wouldn't be that punitive because I had a 1 billion build that could cope.  But in game?  For SOs?

 

Like 'auto snipe.'  It's the same argument.  Why should you have to set build to make something better when it should work well out the box and Rage doesn't.  It interrupts game play.  Does Superman stop 2 mins into a fight and go, 'So, Brainiac...got a bit of a headache....my defences have suddenly gone limp...'  It doesn't really make sense.  A 'controlled' rage is what we're looking for and is something that should be able to be done for at least 1 stack.  Two would be nice with a -res on the 2nd.  And an end/def crash on the 3rd stack?  ie.  The more angry you get the more befuddled you get with the increasingly intensity.  ie.  You're not thinking clearly so mistakes start to creep into your combat.  A gradually lessening of -res then -def/-end makes sense then.

 

Again.  I'd make Rage, game wide for tankers.  Stone melee and Energy melee and Ice melee (don't get me started....) would be transformed by such a boost and compete on a base level with brutes.  A clear water between the brutes and tanks.  Brutes get higher ultimate damage and building capabilities.  Tanks have higher base and a constant sustained boost (which gameplay wise, would be nice if a Red Rage BUILD UP' bar could be added to give game play a bit of excitement - builds anticipation.  Maybe wouldn't take that long to build compared to a Domi because as an aggro mag' it would built up really quick AAANNNND 'PRESS!'  Here we go....

 

Azrael.

 

"I have a new Super Strength tank now. I wasn't going to take Rage, I don't like the crash. If this change goes through and works as intended, I actually might take Rage."

 

I can't quite bring myself to drag it out my powers tray.  It is 'godly' but FLAWED.  It's got that annoying, I'm testing combat now without it.  It's caused my brute to die that many times.  It just crashes defence based alts.  Big meh for that.

 

"Hell I would even vote with single rage, no crash and Jab and Punch moved up to have better damage."

 

I'd second Jab and Punch having better damage.  Very mediocre.  But the same can be said for Energy melee.  Very meh.  Maybe even stone fist could do with a boost.  And ice's Ice melee.

 

If all sets had rage instead of bu then that would address those in one fell swoop.

 

"

7 hours ago,  johua said: 

I think that crashes in general are an unnecessary punishment indicative of poor game design choices by the live devs earlier in the game's life, and it was pretty evident that they were moving away from punishing mechanics such as crashes toward the end of live, given the blaster update.

So, yes. I think it should have no drawbacks that can't be mitigated. "

 

True.  Fair comment.

 

"

7 hours ago,  johua said: 

But if it absolutely has to have a crash, I would rather not have it at all. Just buff the other powers so the set isn't reliant on rage and swap it out for a buildup."

 

To me, this seems the simplest solution.   Just make Rage a click that can replace BU's piddly 15 seconds of meh with 2 mins of Godliness.  I'd like a mechanic that would activate this i.e. the more aggro you take, your 'Rage' bar builds up faster and 'click'  RAGGGGGE HARD!!!!

 

This way.  All the meh tier 1 and tier 2 powers get more damage (piddly at the moment) coupled with the proc accuracy taunting makes the tiers 1 and 2 worth taking.  It also system wide boosts mediocre damage sets like Energy and Ice (and even stone aint that hot.)

 

Azrael.

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[Myrmidon]

10 hours ago, csr said:

What does a "single buff [...] while stacking" mean?  In the context of what others have been saying, that's a contradiction.  The rest of what you say seems to imply you mean "without" stacking.

 

 

The Captain’s original idea for a change to Rage, in case you missed it. Sending that live and monitoring Super Strength further to see if more damage buffs are needed could save us from another 23-page argument (wishful thinking, I know🤣).

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Myrmidon

[oldskool]

My feedback here is simple...   THANKS!

The crash on singular use Rage ruined the re-roll of my main and favorite character that I brought back from live.  I even respeced OUT of Rage and felt handicapped for it.  Or, I could click Rage and be a punching bag for the hordes of enemies.  It felt like a no win situation.  That was incredibly demoralizing to the point of abandoning the character I wanted to play in favor of me deep diving into Sentinels (so shiney, so new). 

This change of crashless Rage for single use application... almost brings a tear to my eye.  I mean it was a few weeks ago I reassessed my build and added Rage back.  It is one of the final powers in my build because I thought... maybe it will be buffed.  I didn't plan to use it, but it was there because I felt like it needed to be.  Now... I see this proposed change.

This change makes me excited because I go back to my beloved homage character and play it without feeling completely kicked between the legs every time that power drops off.  I never minded the bugged version on live.  The damage debuff wasn't a problem for me.  The defense crash HURT though and it was compounded with negative damage.  All in all, that combination of debuffs sucks not just because it feels like bad game design but also sucks the fun out of characters.  Risk vs reward game play is a fair point, but no one plays anything to feel useless unless that person is just masochistic (not a kink shame, but if you are masochistic you like it anyway!).  

If the future is that Rage doesn't screw over players on one stack of the buff, or whatever the implementation is, then I am all for it. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by oldskool

[nihilii]

7 hours ago, Megajoule said:

I have never liked Rage, never thought it "essential" to Super Strength (in a flavor sense) - more something I had to grit my teeth and endure, or work around as much as possible - and would miss it not at all if it went away.

 

Just because it's been around since the beginning doesn't mean it was good, or the I0 devs knew what they were doing.  Remember Unyielding Stance?  Non-stacking armors?  I can go on.

If you're not enjoying a powerset in its current form, I feel the rational answer is to reroll, rather than to suggest the powerset many other people enjoy should be radically changed to lose unique properties they enjoy.

The problem with SS lies in SS being iconic... Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad investment to have a SECOND super strength existing next to the former super strength, with Build Up instead of Rage and slightly buffed numbers as needed.

(But then, people might be disappointed by the result, because the idea SS underperforms heavily without Rage isn't supported well by the numbers)

Edited September 12, 2019 by nihilii

[Golden Azrael]

5 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

 

The Captain’s original idea for a change to Rage, in case you missed it. Sending that live and monitoring Super Strength further to see if more damage buffs are needed could save us from another 23-page argument (wishful thinking, I know🤣).

 

Brilliant in its simplicity.  Yes, Captain Powerhouse, you nailed it.  Increase duration and no crash of any kind.  Yes please.  Send it to live.  😄  Straight away! 😛  What's not to like?  With the boost end and acc proc taunt with added base dam?  Massive step forward to tanks to feel more tanky!!!

 

So all other non-ss tanks aren't left in the shade?  Replace all the other tank's build ups with Rage.  And the Tank class is BACK.  (TM.)

 

That's it.  Buff said.

 

Azrael.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[Obitus]

Haven't read the whole thread, but I did test out an SS Tanker last night.  Like a lot of other people, I thought the micromanagement would be annoying, but it's really not bad.  Rage has a circle around it when you're at risk of double-stacking, so you just wait for the circle to go away and click it again to keep your 1-stack perma.

 

I might prefer the circle to appear in the opposite circumstance; I'd prefer it even more if the power were simply unstackable - but all in all it works pretty well. 

[Myrmidon]

20 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

Brilliant in its simplicity.  Yes, Captain Powerhouse, you nailed it.  Increase duration and no crash of any kind.  Yes please.  Send it to live.  😄  Straight away! 😛  What's not to like?  With the boost end and acc proc taunt with added base dam?  Massive step forward to tanks to feel more tanky!!!

 

So all other non-ss tanks aren't left in the shade?  Replace all the other tank's build ups with Rage.  And the Tank class is BACK.  (TM.)

 

That's it.  Buff said.

 

Azrael.

It’s the Stacking Junkies that caused that to be changed, however, maybe there’s a chance to revisit the idea.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Megajoule]

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

If you're not enjoying a powerset in its current form, I feel the rational answer is to reroll, rather than to suggest the powerset many other people enjoy should be radically changed to lose unique properties they enjoy.

The problem with SS lies in SS being iconic... Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad investment to have a SECOND super strength existing next to the former super strength, with Build Up instead of Rage and slightly buffed numbers as needed.

(But then, people might be disappointed by the result, because the idea SS underperforms heavily without Rage isn't supported well by the numbers)

"[powerset] just wouldn't be [powerset] without someone kicking me in the head every time I use it.  It's essential to the concept.  I've rather come to like it!  If you don't appreciate being kicked in the head, you should reroll."

[calash]

5 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

 

The Captain’s original idea for a change to Rage, in case you missed it. Sending that live and monitoring Super Strength further to see if more damage buffs are needed could save us from another 23-page argument (wishful thinking, I know🤣).

 

I love this and want to marry it, have it's babies, and give them rage when they turn 18.

 

[csr]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

 

The Captain’s original idea for a change to Rage, in case you missed it. Sending that live and monitoring Super Strength further to see if more damage buffs are needed could save us from another 23-page argument (wishful thinking, I know🤣).

 

So, you meant "without stacking" rather than "while stacking" as I thought.

 

Extending the duration doesn't have much value.  If you don't have it perma, it does little.  For Hasten users, I can see getting buff duration while Hasten is up, which then spans the gap to Hasten recharging, but that's about it and requires near perma anyway.  So while it could smooth things for the few with it near perma and having Hasten, once you have it perma the only thing added Recharge would effectively do is increase your END use, as, since the buff would never expire anyway, the extension is irrelevant.

 

Personally, I prefer what's on Pineapple.  And I like what's on live about as much as this.

Edited September 12, 2019 by csr

[Golden Azrael]

52 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

It’s the Stacking Junkies that caused that to be changed, however, maybe there’s a chance to revisit the idea.

I wouldn't let the stacking question hold this up.  If that was executed as per Cap's idea?  It would be transformative.  In fact, there's no reason why 'Rage' couldn't be the 'press' option vs the Brute's Fury Builder.  Just swap out Build UP in al the non ss sets with Rage button instead.  That way, all the 'so so' melee damage sets like En/Ice/Stone would get a transformative boost in damage to not only 'take it' but 'dish it' as well.

 

No crash.  No stacking.  Just a big click.  (Stacking is nice.  But that could be looked at later.  It's got my brute killed (the end drop, the def drop the death drop....) so many times.  It's kinda hard to build up any moment.  Which defeats the point of the fury bar.)  

 

Giving this to tanks is a big incentive to play them.  It also takes away the tier 1, 2 and 3 doing 'enough' damage problem (or tanks in general) as they'd get a doubling in damage from a 'Rage' button.  So many tanker tier 1, 2 or 3 are meh on damage.  (Having rolled Stone, Energy and Ice...tanks.)

 

Azrael.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, calash said:

I love this and want to marry it, have it's babies, and give them rage when they turn 18.

 

 

Best post in thread!🤣

[Myrmidon]

23 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

I wouldn't let the stacking question hold this up.  If that was executed as per Cap's idea?  It would be transformative.  In fact, there's no reason why 'Rage' couldn't be the 'press' option vs the Brute's Fury Builder.  Just swap out Build UP in al the non ss sets with Rage button instead.  That way, all the 'so so' melee damage sets like En/Ice/Stone would get a transformative boost in damage to not only 'take it' but 'dish it' as well.

 

No crash.  No stacking.  Just a big click.  (Stacking is nice.  But that could be looked at later.  It's got my brute killed (the end drop, the def drop the death drop....) so many times.  It's kinda hard to build up any moment.  Which defeats the point of the fury bar.)  

 

Giving this to tanks is a big incentive to play them.  It also takes away the tier 1, 2 and 3 doing 'enough' damage problem (or tanks in general) as they'd get a doubling in damage from a 'Rage' button.  So many tanker tier 1, 2 or 3 are meh on damage.  (Having rolled Stone, Energy and Ice...tanks.)

 

Azrael.

 

Hmm, give Brute SS a Build Up, swap out Rage and Build Up Powers for a Rage-like power on Tankers. The idea does have merit.

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, csr said:

Personally, I prefer what's on Pineapple.  And I like what's on live about as much as this.

 

I’ll adapt to whatever option I am given, however, I think that this is more beneficial to the larger playerbase.

 

Honestly, If Castle had just removed the Stacking element of Rage (eliminating the need for the penalties), we wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Cawshun]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

 

The Captain’s original idea for a change to Rage, in case you missed it. Sending that live and monitoring Super Strength further to see if more damage buffs are needed could save us from another 23-page argument (wishful thinking, I know🤣).

 

I'm not sure I would understand the point of casting rage more than once every 120 seconds outside of niche scenarios if this was the case. If it was cast every 90 seconds, the uptime would be the same as if it was cast every 120 seconds. It has a cast animation as well, so casting rage while it's still up would actually be a detriment mid-combat, because the tanker could have used a damaging or defensive ability instead. Rage fits in to a risk-reward play style on live, and the beta allows it to also be used in a safe style if the user chooses to forgo the damage and ToHit benefit of stacking. The implementation on beta is great because it gives the player the choice on if they want to risk the crash for more damage output or play things safe.

I tested a Bio/SS a bit in some different scenarios (+4/x8), and I'll honestly say that if it wasn't for the damage drop, I wouldn't even notice the crash. I originally designed the character with the idea of swapping to defensive adaptation during the crash to make up for the mitigation loss and back to offensive afterwards, but I found that even in offensive adaptation I could basically ignore the mitigation drop.

[Monos King]

28 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Hmm, give Brute SS a Build Up, swap out Rage and Build Up Powers for a Rage-like power on Tankers. The idea does have merit.

Except it annihilates the reason some of us play super strength in ~Brute~ archetypes.