Focused Feedback: Rage

[Monos King]

I don't want build up, or else I'd play a different class. I play super strength because I like it how it was advertised, and while I can accept many changes I won't accept fundamental differences to its mechanics.

[Myrmidon]

21 minutes ago, monos1 said:

Except it annihilates the reason some of us play super strength in ~Brute~ archetypes. 

As a Brute player, I’m sure that there could be some adjustment that would be amenable to everyone if this concept is looked into.

[Monos King]

On 9/10/2019 at 7:03 PM, Haijinx said:

Why is the -resist so much worse than -defense?   Game wise its just numbers.

 

Thematically a lot of defense sets do not dodge incoming attacks, they deflect them.  Like superman's bullets bouncing off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because if your rolling a set like fire for instance with minor defenses of all kinds, that resistance subtraction is DEBILITATING. It's all you can do maxing out your character to reach basic damage soaking capacity compared to some other sets, once that rage crash hits it is a wrap. I roll ss/fire because I wanted to hit hard knowing the risks, and with proper building you can do pretty well. But with this "new rage" thats pretty much gone; can't hit hard if your dead. 

And as for the "well you could just not stack the rage" argument, others have said it already. Why would I even want it recharging fast if it just kills me.

[Neogumbercules]

23 hours ago, Captain Citadel said:

It's not a buff, it's just a very clunky and inconvenient way to avoid a crash that goes against conventional wisdom regarding recharge. No other perma powers have a crash like Rage does. It does not feel good to have a crash on Rage. Avoiding the crash only by not stacking it just begs the question why it isn't being made into a toggle.

This is a great point and goes along what I was saying on page 1 or whatever. If we're penalizing stacking rage so hard, turn it into a toggle or make its recharge equal to its duration and block it from accepting recharge buffs. Just remove the stacking aspect all together and make slight buffs to the rest of the powerset to get single stack rage in line with other sets, if it isn't already.  Or go with the powerhouse suggestion that people are posting about. 

 

I'm not against a crash, but the change as suggested is just awkward and counter intuitive to the way this game is played. That's what I'm against. I think it's a bad mechanic. 

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

As a Brute player, I’m sure that there could be some adjustment that would be amenable to everyone if this concept is looked into.

Maybe, but it's out of my understanding anyhow. I never thought tanks were ever supposed to be hitting hard to begin with, but apparently that's become a strife.

[drbuzzard]

OK, tried out a Radiation Armor Super Strength tanker on test just now.

 

Leveled it up to 50, decked it out with IOs and incarnate stuff, and took on the first mission of the LGTF on +1x8.

 

Relevant to this thread, the circle around rage which is suppose to indicate when it was OK to click it to avoid the crash doesn't work properly. I'm not sure what it bases things on, but I didn't use an excessive recharge build, but I definitely could have stacked rage had I tried. I was trying to avoid it, but got caught once because the circle was not accurate and got hit by the 'weakened'. Thereafter I just watched the buff icon instead, and was able to avoid the crash. This is evidently a bug which ought to be resolved.

Edited September 12, 2019 by drbuzzard

[JPax]

I don't really understand the need to make Rage crash like it does. It's a throwback to an idea that is great thematically but...well..fucking stupid in practice. Just make it not stack, make it refresh, and make it never crash.

 

I mean what IS the rationale for making it crash NOW?

 

it just seems like you're overthinking Rage in itself rather than just simplifying it. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by JPax

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Megajoule said:

"[powerset] just wouldn't be [powerset] without someone kicking me in the head every time I use it.  It's essential to the concept.  I've rather come to like it!  If you don't appreciate being kicked in the head, you should reroll."

I mean if you picked the Getting Kicked powerset but advocate removing the headkicking because you feel you character is more a shin kicked getting kicked type ...

[Haijinx]

31 minutes ago, JPax said:

I don't really understand the need to make Rage crash like it does. It's a throwback to an idea that is great thematically but...well..fucking stupid in practice. Just make it not stack, make it refresh, and make it never crash.

 

I mean what IS the rationale for making it crash NOW?

 

it just seems like you're overthinking Rage in itself rather than just simplifying it. 

The rationale was that getting a perma build up was better than a 10 second build up

 

Thus it needed a downside. 

 

The game has moved on and people are willing to concede a perma build up was okay without a crash.

 

However there are vocal advocates who want MORE than a perma build up, they want to be able to have long overlap periods of TWO buildups. (30+ seconds typically)

 

Suggesting that doesn't warrant a downside is just being silly.

[JPax]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The rationale was that getting a perma build up was better than a 10 second build up

 

Thus it needed a downside. 

 

The game has moved on and people are willing to concede a perma build up was okay without a crash.

 

However there are vocal advocates who want MORE than a perma build up, they want to be able to have long overlap periods of TWO buildups. (30+ seconds typically)

 

Suggesting that doesn't warrant a downside is just being silly.

This is a problem with Build Up, not Rage. Build Up is not a great power and has a bunch of flaws in itself, namely damage cap, damage buffs being less effective the more +dam you have and that it doesn't really fit the concept anymore.

 

Rage doesn't need to have some major penalty to it, Build Up needs a change. I'm more asking what's the rationale TODAY for rage to have this crash when it only seems to target stacked Rage, where if that is the issue just make Rage non-stacking and self refreshing on overlaps. Because this change is encouraging players NOT TO STACK RAGE. So rather than making it super finicky, awkward and a general pain to use, just simplify Rage in it's new iteration, don't make it more convoluted.

[Haijinx]

15 minutes ago, JPax said:

This is a problem with Build Up, not Rage. Build Up is not a great power and has a bunch of flaws in itself, namely damage cap, damage buffs being less effective the more +dam you have and that it doesn't really fit the concept anymore.

 

Rage doesn't need to have some major penalty to it, Build Up needs a change. I'm more asking what's the rationale TODAY for rage to have this crash when it only seems to target stacked Rage, where if that is the issue just make Rage non-stacking and self refreshing on overlaps. Because this change is encouraging players NOT TO STACK RAGE. So rather than making it super finicky, awkward and a general pain to use, just simplify Rage in it's new iteration, don't make it more convoluted.

Rage is just build up that can be made perma.  

 

There is literally no other difference.  

 

Any issue with buildup also applies to rage except the uptime.

 

Double ragers are asking for long periods where they get 2 buildups running, with no downside.   

 

They are the ones standing in the way of a crashless easy to use perma-buildup for SS

 

 

 

[Megajoule]

3 hours ago, monos1 said:

Except it annihilates the reason some of us play super strength in ~Brute~ archetypes. 

Rage fits Brutes, yes (IMO).  Tankers, not so much (also IMO).

Unfortunately, we're about ten #%@&ing years too late (if not fifteen) on that bad call by the Devs, and now we seem to be stuck with it.  We can't simply take it out and replace it with something that makes more sense, so we're stuck with patching it.  Somehow.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Megajoule

[Cooltastic]

Rage Revamp: Tweaked a bit from my earlier post with a better understanding of what I was trying to go for hopefully.

 

So this is how I personally feel the power should work based on it's theme, while giving players the ability to manage it however they like. Also boosting SS's damage potential slightly(when and if you want to push it.)

 

First: Lower the cooldown on Rage from 4mins to 3mins. This allows the ability to get double stacked for about 30secs with roughly 95% recharge slotted. With Hasten you will be able to keep double stacked for even longer. With IO set bonuses added in you'll be able to triple stack Rage for a good amount of time. I'd like to see a build that can maintain ALMOST maintain perma Triple stacks if they want to go all in on Rage.

 

Secondly: Change the +80 Dam/+20 To-hit to +60 Dam/+15 To-hit per stack of Rage. The First stack will provide slightly less than live, but makes up for it in the end if you want to pursue the max offensive potential of the ability. On live you can perma Double Stacked, which comes out to +160 Dam/+40 To-hit. With the suggested alterations, while triple stacked, you will be able to reach +180 Dam/+45 To-hit.

 

Third: Remove the penalty at the end of Rage altogether and replace it with this step 4.

 

Fourth: Your first stack of Rage comes with no negative effects, just a straight buff. Your second and third stacks will have stacking negative effects that will be applied to your character for as long as you maintain the extra stacks of Rage. These are -7.5%Def/-15%Ell/-15%Res or -10%Def/-20%Ell/-20%Res(Which ever feels more fair for the added damage/acc boost in return.

 

Fifth: Make the End cost of 25% get spent upon activation of each stack.

 

These are my proposed changes to revamp this power in a way that should make the majority of players happy. Those that want to manage a single stack can still do so and save slots in the process by not needing to slot Rage for Recharge, can instead slot +To-hit to make up for the lower single stack amount. Those that just want to have fun stacking Rage will still get to do so, by setting it to Auto and letting what may come happen. Lower damage Tanks who's defenses are stacked may be more inclined to triple stack because they can afford the negative effects easier. Higher DPS brutes may prefer to manage single or double stacks as to keep they're survivability up, allowing them to make use of their designated Rage Slots elsewhere. These changes help open up builds slightly more for Super Strength.

 

These changes would make rage feel more in line with what it sounds like thematically. As your rage grows you are able to dish out more and more damage. But rage is hard to control, so as it grows it also makes you less focused on protecting yourself. The player gets to manage their character concept this way as well. Superman types would be more of a focused Rage. Hulk types would be more careless and only concerned with SMASH! 

 

Well, that's that as they say. Hope I've described things well enough to give this some serious thought over. 

[Shadowsleuth]

5 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Hmm, give Brute SS a Build Up, swap out Rage and Build Up Powers for a Rage-like power on Tankers. The idea does have merit.

I like this for the Tanks, & for the Brute version have it give them max fury (& a small To Hit Bonus) for the duration of the buff.

[Haijinx]

The solution for Rage is obviously more stacks of Rage.  😞

 

[StopDropAndLol]

I just don't understand why the need to fix something that doesn't really need fixing in the first place.

[DR_Mechano]

Still going to keep throwing my hat in the ring for making rage crashless but non-stackable. I know people like being able to stack rage but having tried it the whole 'ring around the power when you can't use it' felt REALLY clunky. I much prefered the option that was first offered where Rage didn't stack but a second stack simply kept refreshing the buff.

[DMW45]

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Rage is just build up that can be made perma.  

 

There is literally no other difference.  

 

Any issue with buildup also applies to rage except the uptime.

 

Double ragers are asking for long periods where they get 2 buildups running, with no downside.   

 

They are the ones standing in the way of a crashless easy to use perma-buildup for SS

 

 

 

...why are they listening to min-maxers?

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, DMW45 said:

...why are they listening to min-maxers?

Cant blame them, since all COH powers people have forever.   Otherwise it woulda been fixed over a decade ago lol.

[DMW45]

Well, I mean, at this point regardless of what they do they're gonna annoy some people.  At the very least with non-stacking rage, like they had originally planned, the set itself didn't actively annoy people.

[EyeLuvBooks]

On 9/10/2019 at 6:57 PM, RenInferno said:

I feel like the definition of when Rage should crash is a little backwards. By the power's in game description, it's more like it should crash only if it ISN'T stacked. Part of the point of building super strength is perma-ing Rage to begin with, and if you end up on a team with -any- recharge buffs, which are honestly common enough that it'll affect this, every time you stack rage, even for a couple seconds, you're now dealing with a crash that effectively drains your ability to damage anything.

EDIT: Changing it so it can't stack but refreshes it with no crash would be an ideal compromise, if you ask me. Rage is one of the powers you set to auto-fire and forget.

You beat me to it. What...I build a toon JUST so my Rage won't crash (with selective tuning of IOs or whatever) and now the guy throwing SB around SCREWS me? No thanks! Set it up to be Perma's with no crash rather than this. 

[EyeLuvBooks]

1 hour ago, StopDropAndLol said:

I just don't understand why the need to fix something that doesn't really need fixing in the first place.

Obviously, because some people think it's broken.

[csr]

On 9/11/2019 at 6:01 PM, csr said:

I'm getting the same results.  Rage always crashes, regardless of whether or not it's stacked.

I made a new SS Brute today and tested at level 30 with sub perma Rage and was NOT getting the single stack crash.

[csr]

47 minutes ago, DMW45 said:

...why are they listening to min-maxers?

I don't think they are.  As the min-maxers would likely be arguing for the crashless Rage (some want the bugged, no -Def crash, stackable Rage back, but the devs clearly aren't listening to them).

 

Double stacking Rage with the crash isn't really much of a bonus.  Especially for Brutes.  Even a solo Brute is often running at 350% Base damage with one stack of Rage.  Let's say we have an Incarnate Brute that solos at 400% damage with a 60s double stack.  So, he does 480% damage for 60s (half the time), 0 for 10s and then 400% for 50s.  Net average 407%, up from the 400% from single stacked Rage and a 2% DPS buff at the cost of crash every 120s that hits Def/Res fairly hard.

 

For a more pedestrian Tanker build such as my Ice/SS I have 48s stacked and run at around 280% with one stack.  I gain 32% from the 40% up time double stack, and lose 23% to the crash for a 9% bonus off base and measly 3% buff to DPS for having that crash.  The break even stack for such a Tanker on the DPS would be 35s.  Anything less than that and my Tanker would actually be losing DPS by stacking Rage.

 

Either version works for me, but I think a power called "Rage" should have a down-side (the primary definition is "violent uncontrollable anger").  Perhaps losing the crash should come with a rename.  I also believe that having the choice, since it's a click, to avoid the crash if you want to means that the unstackable version's benefit is that people don't have to pay attention to when they click it, and nothing more.  I'll take the more versatile version over the lazy version any time.

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, csr said:

I don't think they are.  As the min-maxers would likely be arguing for the crashless Rage (some want the bugged, no -Def crash, stackable Rage back, but the devs clearly aren't listening to them).

 

I think they are in the sense that they are keeping Double Stacked Rage at all.

 

Some in this thread are arguing for Double Stacked Crashless Rage.  

 

Some in this thread are arguing for Constant Debuff Triple and More stacked rage,  but I'm going going to cover my eyes and say nanananana to that noise.