Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

We should be doing much more testing around that level range than the high end.

IMHO, his fully twinked out build was still what I would consider high end despite being only middling in level.

[Warlawk]

5 minutes ago, Derekl1963 said:

IMHO, his fully twinked out build was still what I would consider high end despite being only middling in level.

Quite specifically, as I laid out in my post, that's how I play on live. When I start a new character I get them into the 20s and then buy attuned sets for everything I need for the build up to level 50. In order to have any sort of valuable point of reference I wanted to recreate that same level of building while testing the tanker. Since most of the tanker players are more interested in laying out hypothetical situations than testing, I tested in a way that I would have a valid experience that would give me perspective to compare to what I am already familiar with.

 

What I don't see however, is your personal testing results.

[Lord_Cyclone91]

Testing a level 30 and then Level 40 Dark Armor/Ice Melee tank with the new changes: 

 

Generic IOs only, standard slotting with 1 end red in each of the Tier 7,8 and 9 powers with 1 Acc, 3 Dam, and 1 Rech.  The lower tiers got 2 Acc, 2 Dam, 1 Rech. 

Mission set on +0/5

 

Even with the endurance increase I was sucking down the end rapidly, but doing a pretty good job killing bad guys.  Frost is notably better, hitting almost every mob. 

 

Tough and all defense toggles slotted with 2 End Red and 2 Resist/Defense, and Death Shroud slotted 2 EndRed, 1 Acc, 1 Dam.

 

Kill speed noticeably faster than what's on live servers, based on my experience. 

 

Now at level 40s. 

 

Weave added and GI Sword and Frozen Aura. Death Shroud slotted 2 EndRed, 1 Acc, 2 Dam

 

End was consumed quite a bit, not as rapidly as at lv30, without Oppressive Gloom on.  Was able to deal with a full +0/6 spawn without too much difficulty, losing about 1/3 of my health to the spawn, closer to half with OG running. 

 

Overall, the damage difference was noticeably increased and Shroud was doing a substantial amount of damage.  Frost cone seemed very, very good quite wide and was catching most of the baddies without much repositioning.  Frozen Aura was always good but is now just excellent, hitting everything it seemed.  On a couple of double pulls, it seemed like they were just melting away with Shroud shredding them as Frozen Aura and Frost hammered them. 

 

Freaks and Council seemed to go down equally fast, with Freaks going a slightly better job staying alive with some of the flyers, and the end drain hurt a little more. 

 

CoT hurt a bit more still, but Dark Regen was always up with time to spare.  

 

I have no doubt that an expensive Dark/Ice Melee build would be amazing, and perhaps I will do another updated with a high end. 

 

I'm going to try rolling a few more combos.    

Edited September 18, 2019 by Lord_Cyclone91
Typo

[Noyjitat]

6 hours ago, kiramon said:

 

Why everyone always forget about nature? Heck, nature buff is 82.5% buff aoe lol 

Is it? I just rebuilt mine but havent played it that much but thanks for pointing out another one.

[Leogunner]

I have been mostly testing in the mid level ranges (around lvl 28 to 39) and so far, I've been on 4 different Tankers (Shield/DM, Dark/Spines, Rad/Mace and Inv/Kin).  While I've mostly been playing with the proc'ed AoEs, I've also been getting a general feel for what the characters can handle and sort of pre-preemptively feeling out the future changes.  I'm going to miss the larger range of the cones (I actually wish this wasn't going to be dialed back at all!) but I'm thinking the damage should be fine.  It's actually not that amazing.  Even though my Kat/Regen Stalker I've been playing on live has limited AoE by comparison, I also feel he'd kill just as fast if not faster than the above Tankers on similar content (been playing +1x4...my standard leveling setting for my Stalkers is +3x2 tho).

 

The likely difference in clear speed will probably come in at anything beyond x5, though.  The next chance I get, I'll alter the settings to +0x5 and see how he goes.

[lobster]

I was finally able to do a little bit of testing on an io'd out Inv/TW last night and mostly I found it hard to test 😛  Nothing was killing me and I was hitting a ton of things and killing them slowly, seemed about like I remembered?  Having 135(?) end was hilarious though.

 

Is there a way to turn off all the accolades?  Would help me get closer to my live builds.

The lack of char copy has made me put off recreating my live tank and thus getting an actual solid late game comparison.

 

Suggestion: It would be really helpful if the modified radius and target cap showed up in game.  Maybe I'm blind, but I think the numbers I was seeing for TW matched the ones in mids.

[Mr. Igneous]

16 minutes ago, lobster said:

...

The lack of char copy has made me put off recreating my live tank and thus getting an actual solid late game comparison.

...

 

Yes, we really need to be able to just do a quick copy of our live characters to test.  This would make things so much easier.  I have mentioned this before.

 

Later,

 

Mr. Igneous

[Vanden]

18 minutes ago, lobster said:

Suggestion: It would be really helpful if the modified radius and target cap showed up in game.  Maybe I'm blind, but I think the numbers I was seeing for TW matched the ones in mids.

The info window can only show data affected by enhancements, not outside buffs. And the increased radii have to be implemented as outside buffs, because otherwise the proc rates of IOs would plummet in AoE powers.

[lobster]

15 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The info window can only show data affected by enhancements, not outside buffs. And the increased radii have to be implemented as outside buffs, because otherwise the proc rates of IOs would plummet in AoE powers.

Makes it hard to know what I'm testing though : how many targets should this be hitting, should my radius be bigger than X?  Etc. kind of thing.  Especially if there are going to be exceptions- I think I saw one of CPH's posts say there would be some exceptions to the cone size boosting.  BUT, that makes sense and I'll just have to take the additional testing difficulty into account.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by lobster

[Olly]

Stupid question : As far as I can understand, the point of this change is to make tank AT's competitive to brute AT's.  What else is the point of this change?  I'm not trying to be snarky -- I get this is a big deal for most people.  But I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

 

 

[Leogunner]

6 minutes ago, Olly said:

Stupid question : As far as I can understand, the point of this change is to make tank AT's competitive to brute AT's.  What else is the point of this change?  I'm not trying to be snarky -- I get this is a big deal for most people.  But I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

 

 

I'd assume it's also meant to differentiate the melee ATs, specifically Tanker from Brute.

 

The Tanker builds likely will emphasize cones and PBAoEs because they will be more strat changing.  For example, I bet a lot of Brutes/Scrappers don't use Jacob's Ladder much because of it's minor size and slower activation, but a Tanker can get more use out of it because it's easier to hit more targets with it.  It also can have the effect of slotting for effect.  Having a PBAoE that reduces ToHit or debuffs recovery can be leveraged to hold more aggro while also aiding teammates.

 

In contrast, a Brute or Scrapper will likely aim for a more aggressive build and strategy to put foes down quicker.

 

Also, to clarify before someone chimes in that Tankers were already much different from Brutes, I'll just say that practically anything a Tanker could do could have been emulated by another melee...even the aggro stuff although it'd likely only require some ramp up.  Although that doesn't mean Tanker was specifically underpowered, they just weren't unique.

 

Still wouldn't mind shaving some stuff back from the new Tanker but they feel pretty distinct mechanically.  I play a lot of Stalkers and some Scrappers and it's edging on that level of distinction.  Even with the same powersets, they utilize them differently enough to warrant playing both.

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Derekl1963 said:

IMHO, his fully twinked out build was still what I would consider high end despite being only middling in level.

 

The term that you’re looking for is “tweaked”, not “twinked”.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, lobster said:

I was finally able to do a little bit of testing on an io'd out Inv/TW last night and mostly I found it hard to test 😛  Nothing was killing me and I was hitting a ton of things and killing them slowly, seemed about like I remembered?  Having 135(?) end was hilarious though.

 

Is there a way to turn off all the accolades?  Would help me get closer to my live builds.

The lack of char copy has made me put off recreating my live tank and thus getting an actual solid late game comparison.

 

Suggestion: It would be really helpful if the modified radius and target cap showed up in game.  Maybe I'm blind, but I think the numbers I was seeing for TW matched the ones in mids.

 

 

There are typed commands for obtaining every IO set at whatever level you like. It just takes a little bit of time to gather, which isn’t really bad, plus the ability to squander any IO into the trash is quite satisfying.😁

 

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

The term that you’re looking for is “tweaked”, not “twinked”.

"Twinked" is a longstanding RPG term that refers to a low level character supplied with items and equipment by a higher-level character, that it would be impractical for them to acquire themselves.

[Myrmidon]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

"Twinked" is a longstanding RPG term that refers to a low level character supplied with items and equipment by a higher-level character, that it would be impractical for them to acquire themselves.

 

Oh, I know the game slang use, however, you should all switch to “tweak”.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Oh, I know the game slang use, however, you should all switch to “tweak”.

I agree with this.

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Oh, I know the game slang use, however, you should all switch to “tweak”.

But tweak doesn't mean that

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

But tweak doesn't mean that

Technically, twink isn't right either since there is no high level character providing supplies for a low level.

[Haijinx]

Not all slang is the same slang I guess.

[Demon Shell]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

"Twinked" is a longstanding RPG term that refers to a low level character supplied with items and equipment by a higher-level character, that it would be impractical for them to acquire themselves.

I spent like 8 minutes scrolling to find this post.

 

ANY. WAY.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

But tweak doesn't mean that

 

 

“Tweak - improve (a mechanism or system) by making fine adjustments to it.”

 

 

I cannot think of a better definition for IO set slotting than that.

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

“Tweak - improve (a mechanism or system) by making fine adjustments to it.”

 

I cannot think of a better definition for IO set slotting than that.

IO slotting in general isn't what's being talked about, we're talking about getting full sets of expensive IOs on low-level characters.

[Rylas]

Archetype Difference Testing

To help see how the changes to PBAoEs and Cones affected the difference between Tankers and Brutes, I rolled up identical builds for a SR/DM Tanker and a DM/SR Brute. Both level 50. Both picked up CJ and Weave. Both had Hasten but for current testing I didn't use it. No Incarnate powers, and no IO sets. Just level 30 Generic IOs. The Tanker sat at 51.5% Def for all positions while the Brute was at 38.6%. For a little extra AoE goodness, they have Cross Punch and Spring Attack.

 

TL;DR The buffs, while great, might be just a tiny bit over the top. But this is just one test so far, and more should be tried with even comparisons like this.

 

The Builds:

Spoiler

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.2
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Hellyeah Boy: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(3), EndRdx-I(46)
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(11), EndRdx-I(11)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(5), EndRdx-I(43)
Level 4: Smite -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(19), EndRdx-I(19)
Level 6: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(7), RechRdx-I(7)
Level 8: Shadow Maul -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(21), Dmg-I(21), Dmg-I(23), EndRdx-I(23), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 10: Taunt -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Evasion -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(13), DefBuff-I(13), EndRdx-I(43)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 16: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 18: Siphon Life -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(27), Dmg-I(34), EndRdx-I(34), Heal-I(34), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 20: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Tough -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(40), ResDam-I(40), EndRdx-I(42)
Level 24: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(25), DefBuff-I(25), EndRdx-I(27)
Level 26: Quickness -- Run-I(A)
Level 28: Soul Drain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(29), Acc-I(31), ToHit-I(33)
Level 30: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(31)
Level 32: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(33), DefBuff-I(33)
Level 35: Dark Consumption -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(36), Acc-I(36), Acc-I(37), EndMod-I(43)
Level 38: Midnight Grasp -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(39), Dmg-I(39), Dmg-I(39), EndRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Lucky -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(42), DefBuff-I(42)
Level 44: Spring Attack -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(45), EndRdx-I(46), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 47: Cross Punch -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), EndRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(15), EndMod-I(15)
------------

 

Spoiler

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.2
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Hellnah Boy: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(13), EndRdx-I(13)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(3), EndRdx-I(5)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(7), EndRdx-I(7)
Level 4: Smite -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(17), EndRdx-I(17)
Level 6: Shadow Maul -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(23), EndRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(33), Dmg-I(33), EndRdx-I(34), Heal-I(34), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Taunt -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 16: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(36), EndMod-I(37), RechRdx-I(37), RechRdx-I(37), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 20: Evasion -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(21), DefBuff-I(21), EndRdx-I(23)
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(25), ResDam-I(25), EndRdx-I(27)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Acc-I(A), ToHit-I(40), RechRdx-I(40), RechRdx-I(40), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 28: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(29), DefBuff-I(29), EndRdx-I(31)
Level 30: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(31)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(43), EndRdx-I(43)
Level 35: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(36)
Level 38: Lucky -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(39)
Level 41: Quickness -- Run-I(A)
Level 44: Spring Attack -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(46), EndRdx-I(46), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 47: Cross Punch -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), EndRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(42), EndMod-I(45)
------------

 

 

The Environment:

Both ran Council radio missions at +0/x6, running into and fighting one spawn group at a time.

 

Play Summary:

The Tanker, not surprisingly, had no issues with his green bar, and his endurance hardly ever dropped below 3/4. Any time Dark Consumption was used, it was purely for additional AoE damage. Running from group to group was hardly an issue. The AoE and cone changes made a huge difference in his speed though. Groups would drop faster, but once most had dropped and the fighting went to single target tactics, I could tell he was slower in taking them down. And whenever the group was +1, there was a noticeably slower pace in kill speed. Not terribly so, but enough to tell.

 

The Brute burned through foes at a faster pace when it came to single targets. He wasn't dropping as many multiple targets at a time, but in single target fights bosses and lieutenants dropped much faster. However, the green and blue bar were all over the place. Sometimes he was barely killing them fast enough to stay alive. And SO level recharge in Dark Consumption almost wasn't fast enough. He could keep moving from group to group, but it required much more attention and planning. Groups that were +1 were the ones that almost took him out, but died faster than they did for the tank.

 

Concerns:

I'm loving the changes. And the difference between play styles for the 2 ATs was noticeable with this particular power set combo. But this comparison makes me wonder if Tanker damage has been buffed a little too much. For a melee set not known for its AoE damage, the Tanker did well with groups of minions in quick fashion. Either the cones and AoEs need to come down a smidge, or the damage buff to attacks needs to drop to 10% or 15%, not the 20% that was given. Personally, I'd prefer to keep the AoE and cone buffs as they are and reduce the damage buff. It only makes sense for Brutes to be faster at dropping bodies. As they are, a good AoE Tanker might become the next FotM for farming. Not that that's a bad thing, but Brutes should probably hold at least some edge on kill speeds. At least in most scenarios. I'll try running other flipped build comparisons, but it would be good if others could too.

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Rylas

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Rylas said:

TL;DR The buffs, while great, might be just a tiny bit over the top. But this is just one test so far, and more should be tried with even comparisons like this.

I'm not sure this test means the buffs are over the top, since you specifically went out of your way to get more AoE attacks, and played on a difficulty that heavily favors AoE attacks (weaker, more numerous enemies).

[Myrmidon]

Also, Rylas, the AoE radius boost is dropping from 100% to 60% in the next patch, so run those two again when that happens, if you would.