Devs: Too much powercreep, not enough challenge

[Megajoule]

9 hours ago, Derekl1963 said:

That's kinda the OP's point...  These aren't folks exercising even basic strategy - it's almost always simply a graceless zerg rush.  In the week and a half I've been back, I've seen exactly two team wipes (one Malta, one Carnie). Tactical game play is almost non existent, even at +4x8. 

That's not the CoX I used to play.  The game has changed, and I'm not convinced it's for the better.

When I say "basic", I mean it.  Stuff like "kill the Sapper first".  This is not a high bar we're talking about here.  In practice, it mostly meant that the most difficult/special mob in any group died maybe five seconds ahead of the rest of the spawn.  Heck, I actually found it a little frustrating, because on at least one of those runs I was trying to play a Rad/Rad, and everything died far too quickly to apply any of my debuff anchors.  It was actually a lot like my more recent experience with Warframe, where it's often all I can do just to keep up and try to do my share of the killing.

Again, this was with SOs, and before Incarnate powers were even in the game.

That's just what CoH is/was like, once you get out of the low levels where you're bottoming out on end (especially before inherent Stamina) and not everyone has a full attack chain.  That's part of what makes it fun.

[Lines]

4 hours ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

Asking the SCORE team to come up with new and challenging content 15 years after the game's release is unfair IMHO. NCSoft and Paragon had, at the top of the game, more than 50 people working on the game. I'm not sure how many people the SCORE team has but I'm sure it's not that many. They're also literally working with code that was so spaghetti back in the day that the Devs simply couldn't implement many of the changes they themselves wanted.

Oh absolutely, I don't think I could have emphasised enough how unrealistic it would be to expect whole new game mechanics and strategies. Undoubtedly, such things would transform the game away from what it ever was and perhaps was ever supposed to be. Just a pipe dream of mine.

 

Quote

When I was levelling Heraclea I joined a mission team.  They were running Night Ward missions, against enemies that looked like evil constables among others.

 

I got held, confused, and held some more.  On a tanker. 

 

We finished the mission.  I found an excuse and left the team.  I have not set foot in the zone again except to get characters into Cimerora, and once when I mistakenly took a Belladonna Vetrano arc.  Not a good use of my time.  And definitely not fun. 

This is the distinction between types of difficulty. A strategic difficulty would fail because I as a player made a mistake, did something wrong or didn't coordinate as a team. You can learn and improve for next time.

In this case, it's just that the mobs had numbers that beat the player's numbers. Once the battle of attrition is over and you've eaten through your break frees, there's not much more you can do. The level you're at might not allow for any more mez protection than you have already. When an enemy you were once ploughing through now takes a handful of seconds to bring down, it feels like artificial difficulty. Too much of this would absolutely be frustrating, especially when there's more effective content.

I like the idea of an optional, incarnate-balanced extra-challenge mode, maybe even one that's incentivised with incarnate drops or a few extra merits.

In any case, there's still so much pre-50 content I haven't touched that this game isn't going to run out of good times for me for a long while.

[Profit]

On 9/11/2019 at 2:32 PM, Frostbiter said:

You could always not roll that OP Farming build or just stick to SOs if you want more challenge.

I want to make something clear, OP Farming builds do not do well in normal content. The spines/fire brutes everyone loves to run in AE? They don't generally do well against anything not Fire damage. So your statement is about half right.

 

Having said that, there are OP builds that CAN farm. My arch/nin blaster being one of them. So you're statement should read 'You could always not roll that OP IOd Incarnate build or just stick to SOs if you want more challenge.'

[Frostbiter]

4 minutes ago, Profit said:

I want to make something clear, OP Farming builds do not do well in normal content. The spines/fire brutes everyone loves to run in AE? They don't generally do well against anything not Fire damage. So your statement is about half right.

 

Having said that, there are OP builds that CAN farm. My arch/nin blaster being one of them. So you're statement should read 'You could always not roll that OP IOd Incarnate build or just stick to SOs if you want more challenge.'

Nope, leaving it like it is because I disapprove of farming builds entirely. I think they're detrimental to the game.

[Profit]

1 minute ago, Frostbiter said:

Nope, leaving it like it is because I disapprove of farming builds entirely. I think they're detrimental to the game.

I approve of your freedom to have a wrong opinion. But know that the stance you've decided to take is wrong and your missing the bigger picture because someone sometime in a position of power had a grudge against people not using his baby (AE) like he intended in a game where customization and choice is king.

[Frostbiter]

Your approval is not required and certainly not asked for. Have a good day.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Frostbiter

[Profit]

8 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Your approval is not required and certainly not asked for. Have a good day.

Aren't you glad you got it though? I certainly could have just dismissed your comment as being stupid or something and not stuck up for your right to have the opinion you have. Many people, on this board included, would never do that for a contradictory opinion.

[GM Tempest]

Behave.

[Troo]

On 9/11/2019 at 11:43 AM, Bossk_Hogg said:

I think it may be time to allow some higher difficulty settings. I would like to see spawn bosses be upgraded to elite bosses, and all named mission bosses to at least EB's (with option to go to AV).

 

Also consider upping the levels from +4 to +6 and roll back the purple patch slightly in regards to how debuffs are resisted, as buffs contribute more outside of -resistance and -regen. 

Seems like you asking for more rewards less risk? Maybe I'm mistaken.

 

Would you be okay with +6 and no exp or inf increase?

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

In any case, there's still so much pre-50 content I haven't touched that this game isn't going to run out of good times for me for a long while.

Something similar to this.

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

Seems like you asking for more rewards less risk? Maybe I'm mistaken.

 

Would you be okay with +6 and no exp or inf increase?

No, I'm asking for more risk, more rewards. More bosses, EB's and AV's. 

 

The purple patch was poorly designed in that it disproportionately punishes debuff sets more than buff sets. Debuffs are resisted, and buffs are not. When rad infections 40% to-hit debuff provides less benefit than a 4% defense buff from maneuvers, there's a problem. In order to alllow debuff sets to contribute to harder content, it needs to be rolled back some. 

[Troo]

Ah gotcha.

[Foxfyre]

51 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Nope, leaving it like it is because I disapprove of farming builds entirely. I think they're detrimental to the game.

They are not any more detrimental to the game than any other specialized builds.  Is a tank built only for Hami tanking detrimental to the game?  No....it isn't.  

There's also another side to this coin.  People neglect to realize that you can build for EVERYTHING.

I have a fire/fire brute.  It was made to be a farmer.  But I didn't want to just stop there.  I wanted a tank with Brute DPS.  And you know what?  I achieved that.  Capped S/L.  High all other resists except Toxic and Psi.  High defenses.  Can run +4x8 in fire farms.  Can hold AV's.  It's even tanked Hami before.  It can do EVERYTHING.

Would you say that build is detrimental to the game?

 

[Troo]

There's always trying to solo or duo these. I guess if someone has done all that..

[jubakumbi]

1 hour ago, Frostbiter said:

Nope, leaving it like it is because I disapprove of farming builds entirely. I think they're detrimental to the game.

I am really curious as to how a build in the game is detrimental to the game.

From my PoV, it's like saying knowing what powers to take/use for a situation is bad for the game.

I guess I missed a memo.

 

I mean, this is like saying the fact I prefer to play tanks against mez-heavy enemies over blasters makes playing tanks detrimental to the game, IMO.

 

So ...

[Frostbiter]

I'm sorry, I'm not going to defend myself or expand on my opinions now. I might have if I had been approached reasonably about it to begin with but that ship burned in port. 

[Lines]

I don't think this is really a topic about farming or farming builds anyway.

[nihilii]

21 hours ago, Lines said:

In this case, it's just that the mobs had numbers that beat the player's numbers. Once the battle of attrition is over and you've eaten through your break frees, there's not much more you can do.

Hmm. You can prioritize the mobs with the strongest debuffs, pull mobs instead of jumping into the pack, focus and flee, KB mobs, switch aggro between teammates, split aggro between teammates. Night Ward mobs are actually good difficulty design for me, in that they force you to rethink the zerg rush approach.

It's strange to me you claim this is a number vs number thing after advocating for LGTF Hami, which uses extreme numbers to nullify powersets and force specific approaches. In LGTF Hami there is one intended way to beat the fight plus a couple hacks you can resort to, the breadth and depth of strategies are limited. Night Ward mobs play by the rules and leave you your entire toolbox. They're just better at countering players who whittled down their own toolbox to one hammer and one screwdriver (which is understandable, given that 99% of the game doesn't ask anything more than a hammer and a screwdriver).

Granted, you can STILL sleepwalk through Night Ward if you bring a big enough hammer - which perhaps is the root of your point, as opposed to LGTF Hami being so restrictive you have to do something different from zerg rush no matter how strong your build?

 

Personally, I can enjoy both types of content but I much prefer stronger mobs behaving by the rules (which lets me try unorthodox ways to tackle them) over encounters straight out breaking the rules (which has a tendency to become about following the One Right Way To Beat This Encounter, especially because rulebreaking stuff happens most often in large team content).

 

If the former is artificial difficulty, then give me the fake stuff. 🙂

Edited September 14, 2019 by nihilii

[Lines]

34 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Hmm. You can prioritize the mobs with the strongest debuffs, pull mobs instead of jumping into the pack, focus and flee, KB mobs, switch aggro between teammates, split aggro between teammates. Night Ward mobs are actually good difficulty design for me, in that they force you to rethink the zerg rush approach.

It's strange to me you claim this is a number vs number thing after advocating for LGTF Hami, which uses extreme numbers to nullify powersets and force specific approaches. In LGTF Hami there is one intended way to beat the fight plus a couple hacks you can resort to, the breadth and depth of strategies are limited. Night Ward mobs play by the rules and leave you your entire toolbox. They're just better at countering players who whittled down their own toolbox to one hammer and one screwdriver (which is understandable, given that 99% of the game doesn't ask anything more than a hammer and a screwdriver).

Granted, you can STILL sleepwalk through Night Ward if you bring a big enough hammer - which perhaps is the root of your point, as opposed to LGTF Hami being so restrictive you have to do something different from zerg rush no matter how strong your build?

🙂

 

That about Hami is a very good point.

 

For the first point, even at lower level stuff and even against malta, it's rare to see that kind of strategy much though I would like to. On the other hand, I remember it from pre-IO CoH and how it got quite frustrating then. Maybe there's just no pleasing me!

 

I was thinking about it, and some of the mechanics I'm thinking of do exist in some way. Lord Recluse at the end of MLTF is an obvious one or the last fight in Operative Renault's TF where you need to pay attention to whirlwinds that could knock you about. It's little things like that that I find make boss battles interesting. I'd love to see more things like it, maybe added into old bosses, but again that's a huge ask for a very low-priority and presumably difficult task.

[Chirikiti]

20 hours ago, Troo said:

There's always trying to solo or duo these. I guess if someone has done all that..

I've done most of these solo. Still a few on the list.

 

 

Interesting topic. I've never put much thought into it. But expecting actually new content on a wide basis seems unrealistic

 

Options to tweak your difficulty/mission parameters sound good and might work with the right risk/reward templates, as a number of people have suggested ideas about. Seems an easier option that gives choice to people.

 

I'll add this observation: the merits system makes it wayyyyyy easy to trick out, early and fast. I realize it was that way on live (I disliked it then too and the cash shop crap), not advocating an impossible change, but it makes leveling and 50+ tricking out easy-mode. Which frankly I'm cool with now/really. It's fun to build toons and then see what you can do with them enhancement-wise and and play-wise. 

Incarnating (for me) was way easy too. Hit 50, 3-days later a t4 incarn in very power. No ITrials. (I think this may be an outlier though, my Toon does extremely well in DA/Incarnate content which and suffers little effect from the strengthened enemies. I doubt my burdgeoning Corr will fair as well as fast, we'll see)

 

Game is what it is. And outside of the suggested difficulty-options ideas not sure there is much to be done outside of choosing to play in such a way that it is challenging for you.

 

p.s. I have yet to see a team-wipe. Forgot it was even a thing. Except for maybe that 1 tin mage I was on where half the people were dead every mission and I had to carry the team.

 

 

 

[Wintercat]

On 9/13/2019 at 8:30 AM, Megajoule said:

 

Miscalculations and even wipes do occur sometimes, but this is not a game where the group has to stop and take a knee (and buff up again, regain mana, etc) after every room.

Not to mention that rest is no longer on a 10 minute recharge. That sure helps when soloing.

[krj12]

Considering the Incarnate system is here to stay, though I wish they'd scrap it, the solution to this issue could be:

1.  New harder incarnate specific content.   Wouldn't hurt to have an incarnate checkbox for radio missions as well.

2.  Lose the +1 incarnate shift in regular content.

3.  As suggested earlier, allow more than +4,   allow us to crank it up to +6.

4.  EBs and perhaps AVs in radios.

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by krj12

[Thunder Frog]

There's also street hunting above your level.  

[Ruin Mage]

just as a reminder: powercreep was not the highest priority for paragon studios. y'know, the guys who ran this game.
they're the ones who made the incarnate system.

the problem is that their plans for i25+ were never able to see the light of day, so we don't know what challenges they would have put in.

also if you want a challenge: try going after the 24-man itrial badges with a complete group of randoms.
🙂

also powercreep in a superhero game is like... a fat kid in a candy store. they go hand in hand.

edit: you know what real powercreep is? IOed builds.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Shadeknight

[DR_Mechano]

5 hours ago, krj12 said:

Considering the Incarnate system is here to stay, though I wish they'd scrap it, the solution to this issue could be:

1.  New harder incarnate specific content.   Wouldn't hurt to have an incarnate checkbox for radio missions as well.

2.  Lose the +1 incarnate shift in regular content.

3.  As suggested earlier, allow more than +4,   allow us to crank it up to +6.

4.  EBs and perhaps AVs in radios.

 

As mentioned there IS harder Incarnate content but no bugger does it. I've seen a grand total of one call for the Magisterium trial specifically in all my time playing the game. That was the final iTrial (which is kind of odd because the Dilemma Diabolique trial actually takes place AFTER it...weird time line issues) and as such expects you to have all your incarnate powers unlocked in order to succeed, not to mention it requires more coordination than say the BAF trial which is essentially 'stand by door, summon pets'.

 

Remember originally incarnate XP was limited to these trials and each one gave a specific XP which couldn't be earned outside of those trials apart from in Dark Astoria. The final one gives advanced which is what unlocked the hybrid. Now you can unlock hybrid without doing any of the incarnate content (which to be honest I prefer, the incarnate XP grind was tedious on live) so it comes down to the salvage rewards. Why bother busting your backside for a slim chance at a salvage reward when a much easier trial could give you the same.