Focused Feedback: Rikti Mothership Raid

[Leandro]

Tasks

• The Rikti Mothership raid can now be started from the LFG queue. This is a very rough version that I spent all of yesterday putting together, and it has issues. It is not final. To make testing easier, all characters on Pineapple will receive the Member of Vanguard badge on login.
• How it works:
  • Queue like any normal trial. It requires you to be level 35 or higher and have the Member of Vanguard badge.
  • For testing purposes the trial will start with 8 players, and has a maximum of 48. The mimimum players can be tweaked as requested.
  • All enemies inside the mission map are level 54, including the ones that are lower level in the zone. This is normal and expected.
  • The Patrol Ship will always spawn on the first pylon that is destroyed, rather than a 15% chance per pylon. Subject to feedback.
  • Once the time on the ship is over, the shield will not come back up. The trial ends with the shield still down and no enemies on the dish.
• Known issues:
  • The trial is listed as "LFG_Mission_RiktiPylonMission" in the LFG queue.
  • There are no navigation beacons in the mission map. This means that all enemies (and pets) will stay where they spawned.
  • There's no minimap.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Leandro

[Croax]

What is with the exploration Badge on top of the ship that can only be obtained during a raid?

 

Are we supposed to get it fron the trial also or only from 'the real raid'?

[Mikewho]

I would request that you please set the minimum number of players to 1, just like for task forces. It would also be nice to do this for the incarnate trials if possible. Thanks for all your hard work!

[SuperPlyx]

3 hours ago, Leandro said:

Once the time on the ship is over, the shield will not come back up. The trial ends with the shield still down and no enemies on the dish.

So,I'm confused ...do the rikti just stop spawning?If so when?  When will the shield go back up? Is the raid now an instance? Are the timers the same?

[Keleko]

1 hour ago, SuperPlyx said:

So,I'm confused ...do the rikti just stop spawning?If so when?  When will the shield go back up? Is the raid now an instance? Are the timers the same?

It sounds like it runs just like a trial instance.  This way the zone player cap is no longer an issue.  Instead of the shield going back up, the Rikti stop spawning when the timer runs out. Technically this means you can "win" instead of getting kicked off the ship when time is up.

[nihilii]

2 hours ago, Kaylin said:

I would request that you please set the minimum number of players to 1, just like for task forces. It would also be nice to do this for the incarnate trials if possible. Thanks for all your hard work!

Seconded wholeheartedly! I think we have tentative evidence lowering minimum players doesn't negatively affect task forces and trials, as people are still eager to form full teams as the default for these tasks. Players like to team up for these tasks and don't need to be coerced into it.

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

Seconded wholeheartedly! I think we have tentative evidence lowering minimum players doesn't negatively affect task forces and trials, as people are still eager to form full teams as the default for these tasks. Players like to team up for these tasks and don't need to be coerced into it.

The problem with minimum-1 trials is that it makes it so individual players can't use the LFG system to, well, LFG.

[nihilii]

Is that so? Every time I forget to set the "lock the event for your group" option, the game takes several minutes to give me a trial window - suggesting to me it's in fact looking for a group to join.

[Vanden]

25 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Is that so? Every time I forget to set the "lock the event for your group" option, the game takes several minutes to give me a trial window - suggesting to me it's in fact looking for a group to join.

It’s still going to eventually put up a join team window with only one person engaged, not very helpful if you’re trying to find a group.

[nihilii]

Couldn't you reject and queue again immediately? If there's no team during the minutes you were searching for one, it's unlikely there would be a team forming and launching and skipping you within the 5 seconds or so that would take you.

[Corruption]

4 hours ago, Kaylin said:

I would request that you please set the minimum number of players to 1, just like for task forces. It would also be nice to do this for the incarnate trials if possible. Thanks for all your hard work!

I concur with this suggestion! Hopefully this could be applied to Incarnate Trials as well. 

[Keleko]

Does anyone actually use it as a queue?  Mostly no since the leader fills the team/league and then starts with it locked.

 

MSR is an event that can benefit from people joining even when in progress if it wasn't full.  Does LFG work that way that you can join an event already in progress if it isn't locked?  I've never used it that way to know.

[Apparition]

8 hours ago, Leandro said:

Tasks

• The Rikti Mothership raid can now be started from the LFG queue. This is a very rough version that I spent all of yesterday putting together, and it has issues. It is not final. To make testing easier, all characters on Pineapple will receive the Member of Vanguard badge on login.
• How it works:
  • Queue like any normal trial. It requires you to be level 35 or higher and have the Member of Vanguard badge.
  • For testing purposes the trial will start with 8 players, and has a maximum of 48. The mimimum players can be tweaked as requested.
  • All enemies inside the mission map are level 54, including the ones that are lower level in the zone. This is normal and expected.
  • The Patrol Ship will always spawn on the first pylon that is destroyed, rather than a 15% chance per pylon. Subject to feedback.
  • Once the time on the ship is over, the shield will not come back up. The trial ends with the shield still down and no enemies on the dish.

 

Excellent changes.  I especially like the level 35+ requirement, and the Rikti dropship spawning after the destruction of the first pylon.  How Rikti mothership raids are run now (at least on Excelsior server), are that we'll hunt the dropship after the raiders are evicted from the mothership.  But it's an annoying little gnat that will occasionally one shot people while taking down the remaining pylons.  I've been one shotted quite a few times during the Pylon phase.  It makes it a wee bit disorienting while leading.

 

Now we can destroy one Pylon, turn our attention to the dropship, and then return to the Pylons.

[Apparition]

6 minutes ago, Keleko said:

Does anyone actually use it as a queue?  Mostly no since the leader fills the team/league and then starts with it locked.

 

MSR is an event that can benefit from people joining even when in progress if it wasn't full.  Does LFG work that way that you can join an event already in progress if it isn't locked?  I've never used it that way to know.

 

Yes.  In the LFG window, there's an option to join an event in progress if it isn't locked.

[Keleko]

53 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Yes.  In the LFG window, there's an option to join an event in progress if it isn't locked.

Sounds like just the right way to run MSR, then.  It's more suited to joining in progress unlike other trials.

[Vanden]

I’m pretty sure the Join in Progress feature only works if the event in question has fewer players than the minimum required to start it.

[swordchucks]

I think this is absolutely the right way to address Hami... and completely the wrong way to address MSR (unless the plan is to have two versions of MSR).

 

I would much rather see MSR get a difficulty tweak and allow for multi-league battles.  MSR had become a major social event and this does nothing to restore that. 

[Keleko]

7 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

I think this is absolutely the right way to address Hami... and completely the wrong way to address MSR (unless the plan is to have two versions of MSR).

 

I would much rather see MSR get a difficulty tweak and allow for multi-league battles.  MSR had become a major social event and this does nothing to restore that. 

If the zone cap is going to stay 50 players, then this is the best way to address MSR. Then the cap no longer applies to it.

[Apparition]

22 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

I think this is absolutely the right way to address Hami... and completely the wrong way to address MSR (unless the plan is to have two versions of MSR).

 

I would much rather see MSR get a difficulty tweak and allow for multi-league battles.  MSR had become a major social event and this does nothing to restore that. 

 

There are four huge advantages to the LFG Rikti mothership raid.

 

1.  With only one league, there's much less lag.  Lag with two or more leagues is just ridiculous.

 

2. Far less chance of griefing.  Rikti mothership raids have been griefed.  I know, I've lead Rikti mothership raids on the Excelsior server that were griefed.  People spamming Dimensional Shift and/or Black Hole, among other things.  Making it available in the LFG cuts chances of griefing substantially.  If someone does grief, well, they can be easily kicked out of the instance and not be invited back.  With the zone Rikti mothership raids, there's not much you can do about griefing other than deal with it or cancel the Rikti mothership raid.  Sure, I could have kicked the two idiots spamming Dimension Shift from the league, but that does nothing about them being in the bowl nor prevent them from spamming the heck out of Dimension Shift.

 

3. It is limited to those level 35+.  I have seen numerous people at Rikti mothership raids under level 15 (some even as low as level 1 or 2), using it as a method of PLing.  What the heck is a level 10 Scrapper going to contribute to a mothership raid, nonetheless a level 1?  In relation, it also cuts down the number of AFK leechers trying to PL.  They can be kicked from the instance, and not invited back at the next mothership raid.

 

4. There can be concurrent Rikti mothership raids.  Excelsior server had no scheduled Rikti mothership raids for months.  I've tried, but someone who doesn't read the forums nor the Homecoming Discord started an impromptu Rikti mothership raid ten minutes before the scheduled one was to form.  The zone cap was at 200, so intentionally forcing a second zone to spawn was impossible.

 

IMO, all four points outweigh a social experience. 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Apparition

[Myrmidon]

If the Mothership raid becomes an instance, what happens to the crashed Mothership area in the Rikti Warzone?

[Demon Shell]

This is amazing (especially since this doesn't stop the normal way of doing a ship raid), but I will echo that Hami is the greater concern. You can certainly "mentally fail" a ship raid, but the only real objective is to take down the shield and take out the GM. Those are not hard things to do.

 

Hamidon is a pass/fail situation. You either win or you don't, and it's much harder. Something like this would be more valuable for that content in ensuring participants aren't leeching/trolling (if that is the desire of the event organizer, I know some don't mind leeching).

 

However, considering this currently has no navigation beacons, Hamidon would evidently be the more difficult raid to implement. Not the end of the world if your MM pets can't move in a ship raid. A markedly worse situation to be in for a Hamidon raid.

[swordchucks]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

Far less chance of griefing. 

I'd really rather see a rule that says "don't grief raids" and then bans handed out for people that insist on it.  That kind of player is probably toxic in other ways and not worth keeping around.

 

Jerks are going to find more ways to be jerks.  It's better to just eject the jerks.

 

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

3. It is limited to those level 35+. 

Which is fine... unless your league wants to allow all levels.  We used to make a point of it, especially if we were running at around the same time as Hami to attract lower-level folks.  The rewards are good for low level characters, but they're not out of line with a radio farm in PI.  Level 10 might be a bit much, but a level 32 is only marginally less effective than a level 35.  It's also something that leagues can self-police since those level 10s aren't going to be able to join without a level 50 leading their team.

 

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

4. There can be concurrent Rikti mothership raids.

I'm not entirely sure why this is an issue.  When there were raids rolling all the time and they were easy to get into, there was no real need to schedule a MSR.  That was part of the great thing about it - if you showed up, there was probably one going on and you could probably join the overflow. 

 

---

So... I'd agree that lag (which I didn't really notice being a problem below about 150 players - especially with the 64-bit client) is a reason for limiting things somewhat.  I disagree with the rest as being reasons to make this the only way to do MSR.

 

To be clear, though, an MSR Trial as a second way to do MSR would be great.  It could be tuned for higher difficulty and give better rewards in compensation for being harder.  I just miss the big social gatherings that the old 200cap MSRs had become and would like to see both kinds as an option.  Hell, make three!  One for 35+, one for 50+ with alpha slot, and the open world one which allows more players of any level.

[Keen]

Some thoughts and considerations (disclaimer: I haven't played the LFG version):

 

1. Current zone format has rules for spawning the GM in the middle of the ship. "Plant enough bombs" seems to be one. How will that translate to the LFG version? The ship has 18 bombs total. It seems that planting 5 of them triggers the GM (I'm not sure). If that's the case, this makes it *required* that at least 5 teams are in the TF, because there are lockout rules for planting bombs as well - currently one bomb per team, with a lockout of 30 minutes. Those rules could be revised to allow smaller leagues to trigger the GM. Also related, allegedly each planted bomb increases raid time. This has some implications. If smaller leagues mean shorter raids, what about people joining the TF while it's ongoing? Would that extend the raid time? Things to think about.

 

2. "Clear all enemies after shields time out" format: will that require us to wander around the ship? (That'd be okay) I'm guessing mobs outside of the ship won't count. Hopefully Rikti won't fall off the ship =P

 

3. Would having the LFG version remove the zone version? If not, then by all means try to implement the LFG version as an option. Removing the zone version? I'm not sure it'd be a good idea. But then having both versions might bring its own set of problems...

[Apparition]

It only requires planting two bombs to spawn the GM, so two teams. 

[Teirusu]

15 hours ago, Leandro said:

Tasks

• The Rikti Mothership raid can now be started from the LFG queue. This is a very rough version that I spent all of yesterday putting together, and it has issues. It is not final. To make testing easier, all characters on Pineapple will receive the Member of Vanguard badge on login.
• How it works:
  • Queue like any normal trial. It requires you to be level 35 or higher and have the Member of Vanguard badge.
  • For testing purposes the trial will start with 8 players, and has a maximum of 48. The mimimum players can be tweaked as requested.
  • All enemies inside the mission map are level 54, including the ones that are lower level in the zone. This is normal and expected.
  • The Patrol Ship will always spawn on the first pylon that is destroyed, rather than a 15% chance per pylon. Subject to feedback.
  • Once the time on the ship is over, the shield will not come back up. The trial ends with the shield still down and no enemies on the dish.
• Known issues:
  • The trial is listed as "LFG_Mission_RiktiPylonMission" in the LFG queue.
  • There are no navigation beacons in the mission map. This means that all enemies (and pets) will stay where they spawned.
  • There's no minimap.

 

Leandro, I want to thank you for all the hard work and time you pump into this game.  It astounds me how much has been added/tweaked/fixed over the years.  Many things that people thought was impossible.  So, thank you and the rest of the Devs that have sunk so much effort and time into making Cities absolutely amazing and even better then what it was when it was live.

 

 

With that said, back to the topic.

 

I have to admit, having an instanced version of the Rikti raid can definitely fix a lot of the issues with the MSR, in general and I feel that this is a nice option to have.   That being said, I'll echo what some of the others have already mentioned in that this might reduce the social fun aspect of the raid slightly.  As far as I know, we don't really have any grievers on Everlasting and, many times, raid leaders will advertise to take anyone of any level.  Or, at least, down to level 25.

 

I feel, as long as the zone version sticks around, for now, then raiders can just pick what version they want to run.  Either the instanced version (Which also will be handy for SGs to run their own private raids, if they so want.) or run the zone version, if there's a heavy demand and an over-flow league forms along side.

 

Ultimately, I'd hope that the instanced version gets.. updated a little bit to be more.. fun and engaging?  By this time, it has gotten a bit stale.  With it being instanced, objectives could be added with more tailored rewards and such.

 

Here's what I'd think would be really cool:

 

Phase 1 being the pylon's still.  Maybe switch them to being in a circle around the mothership. (Instanced map could be made smaller with a temporary field hospital at the closest Vanguard base.)  After all, there isn't much logic to how the pylons keep the shield up when they're willy-nilly all over.  Have the pylons guarded by Rikti mobs and then, have a timer to get them all down. 

Once the pylons are all down, the main shield drops and the wing sections are open for assault.  Have a smaller shield still protecting the bowl.  Thus, the next objective is to plant bombs... all the bombs!  After all, what's the point to having the three sections of the ship be bombable if you can only ever plant 6, right?  While this is happening, Rikti are madly teleporting in like they do during Rikti raids in normal zones.  Although, speed up the teleporting time?  ALSO, the drop-ship could be circling over-head!  Randomly zapping people to add to the chaos!  So, you'll have to deal with that too!  Rikti could also be jumping off the big taller sections of the ship to ambush teams.

Only once all of the bombs have been planted would the smaller shield protecting the bowl drop and U'Kon Gr'ai and his large mob would be there waiting for you.  Although, this one could be tougher!  Give him a few level shifts like Tyrant in the MAG trial, you'll definitely con grey to him then!  😁  Have a few Rikti machines/devices buffing him that you have to deal with around the edge of the bowl with some interesting mechanics.  Like those Rikti generators from the Lady Grey TF?  Basically, he'd be buffed like Lord Recluse.  Once you defeat him, the raid ends and you get some final rewards.

 

Something like that!