Code of Conduct Update - September 25th 2019

[nightroarer]

6 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

That's not how I remember it.  I want to say this came up as a side discussion about AE arcs back in the day.  NCSoft owned everything including what was put into the AE.   Not 100% sure but this is what I recall of it anyway.

This was actually addressed by one of the devs in a thread (I do not remember which one, but I remember the conversation). It was not intended to restrict you from using your creations in your own work (book, comic book, what have you), but to protect their rights to use images and video of your characters in their promotional materials. Of course, the specific costume designs. etc., created from their assets would need to be modified for personal use, but the character concept itself still belonged to you.

 

I had a vested interest in this conversion when it took place because I was using one of my own story characters in game. I have not recreated him in this iteration of CoH, and I have published work with this character (with my own original costume design). I was assured directly that I owned my character concept.

[Williwaw]

^ This.

 

The EULA just said that NCSoft had the rights to use the images of the characters as they appeared in the game, but they didn't gain the rights to your actual characters.  If you made Captain Cheesecloth in the game, NCSoft didn't suddenly didn't own your character's name, powerset, appearance*, or backstory, it just meant that NCSoft didn't owe you any money if they used a screenshot or video of Captain Cheesecloth in their ads.

 

* You'd have to change their look just enough so they weren't using exact CoH assets, of course.

[Myrmidon]

Homecoming has decided not to allow trademarked/copyrighted characters. They will deal with specific issues of this when concerning people using their trademarked/copyright characters in-game.

 

 

The discussion should really be over with at this point.

 

 

thanks for the update, Jimmy.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Haijinx]

8 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

The very companies you are holding up on a pedestal as pillars of creativity and originality are perhaps the most flagrant ripoff artists themselves.   Where do we even begin listing them?  Just to name a few from a rather lengthy list....

 

Green Arrow vs  Hawkeye

Namor vs Aquaman

Brainiac vs Ultron

Superman vs Sentry or Gladiator or Hyperion

Catwoman vs Black Cat

Elongated Man vs Mister Fantastic

Deadpool vs Deathstroke

Swamp Thing vs Man Thing

Ant-Man vs The Atom

Red Lion vs Black Panther

Wasp vs Bumblebee

Thanos vs Darkseid

The irony in Green Arrow is real.

 

Originally he was an expy of Batman for some company later bought by DC which was then borrowed by Hawkeye.

 

Or how about Watchmen?  They were expys of expys.  Making Dr Manhattan a third hand Superman.  

[Tahliah]

I don't get the confusion over this.  It's really pretty simple:  don't rip off/steal other people's work.

 

If you've created an homage to or a satiric take on someone else's work, that is not ripping off/stealing that work.  If you are unsure whether or not you have created an homage or a satire, then you probably haven't (and maybe even know it?). 

 

Excluding the waste of time and space on discussing use of the name "Thor" (a figure from mythology that far predates both IP concerns and Marvel), the rest of the examples tossed out answer themselves.  Is my exact replica of [insert known character] a problem?  The answer is yes.  What if it's not exact because what I needed to make my exact replica wasn't available in costume creator, but I got it as close as possible with what we have? Still yes.  What if I change "Superman" to Supa Man?  Still yes.  What if I call him Klark Cent?  Still yes.  Even if he's in his Superman outfit?  Yes.  Always yes. (maybe especially if he's in his Superman outfit and not that of mild-mannered Clark Kent).

 

What if I make him a her and she's not faster than a speeding bullet, can't leap tall buildings in a single bound, and is an emp/dark defender?  Well, no, that's not a problem because it's not freaking Superman (nor would it be Super Girl come to think of it).   What if my Klark Cent doesn't wear glasses and is a plant sentinel with leaves for hair, boots, and gloves?  Then no, obviously, you've just used the name on a plant troll for your own (and others') amusement.  (though Clark Sent might be better, but you get my drift)

 

I think the "fix" here is to figure out what satire is and what homages (and puns) are and then ensure you are firmly in that territory.  If you are not sure, then fix it yourself until you are sure.  When in doubt, don't. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Tahliah
clarification

[PaxArcana]

51 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Or how about Watchmen?  They were expys of expys.  Making Dr Manhattan a third hand Superman.  

DC is publisher for Watchmen.  You're sort of allowed to create expy's of your own stuff.  😄

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, PaxArcana said:

DC is publisher for Watchmen.  You're sort of allowed to create expy's of your own stuff.  😄

Well its cooler than that though

 

The Expys didn't belong to DC when made .. 

 

But then DC bought the company that owned Captain Atom, The Question, etc.

 

Asked Moore to integrate their new characters, changed their mind, and so Moore made Expys of the Expys instead.

 

Then years later some aspects of the Expy Expys got rolled into some of their predecessor Expys .. 

 

So .. fun times.

[Torcel]

On 9/25/2019 at 10:13 AM, GM Widower said:

If you don't report offensive names, we don't know about them; we're not psychic and there are 950k characters.

Should these be reported via a ticket on the support site?  If so, which In-Game Issue Type should we use?

 

Most of my friend group has names we'd like to report, we're just not entirely sure how *shrug*

Edited September 27, 2019 by Torcel

[Widower]

6 minutes ago, Torcel said:

Should these be reported via a ticket on the support site?  If so, which In-Game Issue Type should we use?

 

Most of my friend group has names we'd like to report, we're just not entirely sure how *shrug*

Go with Harassment and Conduct, I guess.

[Torcel]

Thanks.

[Haijinx]

Talk about a thankless job >.<

 

Hopefully we don't end up with roving bands of self-appointed character police

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Player2 said:

 

Back in the old days, the developers on the Live servers had a zero tolerance policy on trademarked & copyrighted material, even if the player was the owner and could prove it.  It's the kind of thing that could get out of hand, as in if they allowed one person to do it then they'd have to make exceptions for anyone, and at anytime someone could decide to claim unfair use of their character's image because, for example, their character appears in someone else's monetized YouTube stream or whatever else... and they gave NCSoft / Cryptic / Paragon Studios permission to use their characters by agreeing to the EULA but can say they did not give every other player the same permission... but how do you as the people running the game control how anyone else uses screenshots taken in the game?  It would be costly and irritating, and the person with the trademark character they own could say that not enough effort was taken to protect the usage of that character.

 

No, no... easier just to avoid all trademarks altogether.

 

Man, I'm sure glad it's not up to you. Not being able to play my main because of this would be pretty devastating. I am fairly certain I would not be playing my trademarked character in City of Heroes if I was worried about somebody taking a screenshot of him. He's not an exact copy as I think I had mentioned before, that was a huge exaggeration. The costume parts simply don't exist. However, it's very similar, as you can see in the pictures below.

 

 

[Myrmidon]

57 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Talk about a thankless job >.<

 

Hopefully we don't end up with roving bands of self-appointed character police

 

[boggo2300]

7 hours ago, Sniktch said:

 

 

Incorrect - Jim Butcher did in fact get permission to play Harry Dresden on Cities during the live era - I know, I teamed with him.

Luckily Harry in CoH wasn't as dangerous to team with as he is in the books 🙂

[boggo2300]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Well its cooler than that though

 

The Expys didn't belong to DC when made .. 

 

But then DC bought the company that owned Captain Atom, The Question, etc.

 

Asked Moore to integrate their new characters, changed their mind, and so Moore made Expys of the Expys instead.

 

Then years later some aspects of the Expy Expys got rolled into some of their predecessor Expys .. 

 

So .. fun times.

I got lost about 6 layers in, can you come back and get me?

 

(Ugh I feel like an escort out of mish NPC)

[Blackbird71]

11 hours ago, Tahliah said:

I don't get the confusion over this.  It's really pretty simple:  don't rip off/steal other people's work.

 

If you've created an homage to or a satiric take on someone else's work, that is not ripping off/stealing that work.  If you are unsure whether or not you have created an homage or a satire, then you probably haven't (and maybe even know it?). 

 

 

The problems are:

 

1. Where is the line drawn between a copy and homage/satire/parody? For most existing IP characters, it is impossible to make an exact replica in the game; most are just "close enough."  So it can already be argued that, at least when it comes to costumes, characters in CoH are by definition not exact copies (trademarked names are a little easier to identify, but even then variations become an issue; how different is still the same?).  The very fact that costume resets are being considered means that there is a degree of similarity that is being counted as an "exact replica."  How similar is too similar?
2. What happens when overzealous players begin reporting anything and everything even close to trademarked/copyrighted work?  We've already had several players in this and other threads talk about how much they hate when players make characters resembling existing IPs, about how doing so "lacks creativity" and is "lazy".  Some of these players have gone so far as to declare their intentions to report anything they see that remotely resembles an existing character.  Players like this are not out to protect IP, they are on a personal vendetta against people they think are "playing wrong," and they now have license to impose their will on others.  They have the potential to create an overwhelming load for the HC staff to review.  My concern is that under such circumstances, rather than risk missing true copies, the HC staff may grow indiscriminate in identifying characters as copies, and legitimate homages/parodies, or even characters that unintentionally bear a resemblance to something out of an obscure issue of a comic that five people have heard of, are going to be reset all because a few trolls now feel vindicated in telling others that they are "playing wrong."

Edited September 27, 2019 by Blackbird71

[PaxArcana]

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

Where is the line drawn between a copy and homage/satire/parody?

This is impossible to nail down with any degree of reliability or clarity.  It is always, always, a judgement call, a purely subjective decision on the part of the GM reviewing the report.

 

2 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

What happens when overzealous players begin reporting anything and everything even close to trademarked/copyrighted work?

I would presume that if a single person makes a large volume of reports, which prove to be unfounded - especially if the resemblence is particularly tenuous - that the GMs will take steps to stem the flow of reports from that player.  Early steps are likely to be messages to the effect of "cut that out", later steps could include disciplinary sanctions up to and including an account ban, should that player persist.

 

4 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

and they now have license to impose their will on others.

This is not correct.  Player A reporting Player B for possible IP infringement, does not produce automatic action.  A GM will always be required to decide what happens, and then make it so.  ALWAYS.  And as I just said, any single player who generates a high volume of reports, especially in a short period of time, and super-especially if those reports seem tenuous at best?  Is going to be the one the GMs look at with an unfriendly eye.

 

...

 

There was no epidemic of "trolling" or "griefing" via the report system on Live.  There will be no such epidemic here, either.

[Sidious]

10 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Talk about a thankless job >.<

 

Hopefully we don't end up with roving bands of self-appointed character police

the correct term is Snitches.

[Sidious]

44 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

1. What happens when overzealous players begin reporting anything and everything even close to trademarked/copyrighted work?  We've already had several players in this and other threads talk about how much they hate when players make characters resembling existing IPs, about how doing so "lacks creativity" and is "lazy".  Some of these players have gone so far as to declare their intentions to report anything they see that remotely resembles an existing character.  Players like this are not out to protect IP, they are on a personal vendetta against people they think are "playing wrong," and they now have license to impose their will on others.  They have the potential to create an overwhelming load for the HC staff to review.  My concern is that under such circumstances, rather than risk missing true copies, the HC staff may grow indiscriminate in identifying characters as copies, and legitimate homages/parodies, or even characters that unintentionally bear a resemblance to something out of an obscure issue of a comic that five people have heard of, are going to be reset all because a few trolls now feel vindicated in telling others that they are "playing wrong."

Nothing kills community spirit faster than overzealous players who feel it's their "moral duty" to dictate how other people play.

the responses on this thread are an indication of how things will be going, it doesn't bode well.

[ZacKing]

17 hours ago, Player2 said:

It's a little amusing, but I'm not quite sure that this falls under the definition of irony... unless you mean the Alanis Morissette song, and even then it's kind of sketchy.  I think the word you were looking for is "hypocrisy."

Oh I know I used "irony" over what it really is.  putting the word hypocrite in a post seems to result in an eventual report flag no matter what,  so I made a choice.  And let me say by including it here I'm not directing it at anyone in person.

 

Another word I will call it is sad.  very sad.  Several self proclaimed forum champions here used every disingenuous excuse for care concern and fake empathy they can come up with other than google search law to claim the moral high ground because cosplay is "stealing".  everything from "looking out for everyone" to "hurting real people who need copyrights to make a living" and "taking food out of their mouths" to "hurting people who have children to support".  Its beyond incredible.

 

The law applies to everyone equally.  trying to all of a sudden be worried about Marvel suing the game because of infringement, calling it "illegal" and theft", calling the people who make cosplays "shady" and "uncreative" while in the same breath having no issue or concern whatsoever playing on a pirate server a pirated game from code stolen from the rightful owner by a group of people who in fact kept it hidden from everyone for years speaks volumes about the real motives of the anti-cosplay crowd. The chances of legal trouble due to theft of the game is far greater than Disney giving a hoot.

 

Let me be absolutely clear - this is in no way an attack or dig at anyone at homecoming.  If any of you take it that way, I apologize it isn't my intention.  Safe to assume everyone hates NCSoft equally here and I think we can all understand why homecoming did what they did and their reasoning behind it.  Malice or self profit wasn't their intent and given the circumstances, I believe most of us if not all would have done the same thing. 

 

But lets all be honest - theft is theft no matter the victim.  Like it or not, NCSoft has rights and NCSoft has employees who have families to support and whatever other excuses were used to justify not liking cosplayers.  So please, stop with the obvious dishonesty and stop insulting the intelligence of people about what the selfish personal motivations are. 

 

We're all hypocrites no matter what side of the fence we are on with this issue.  Rules are rules so either accept it now or move to another server because there are others out there.  Me?  I will never report anyone I see who has a cosplay toon unless they are a complete jerk griefing people.  I'm here to have fun and enjoy myself the way I want and let others do the same.

 

Thank you to homecoming for taking these steps toward making the game and server legit.  Hopefully everyone can stop bickering long enough to help the folks here toward that goal.

Edited September 27, 2019 by ZacKing

[ZacKing]

14 hours ago, Tahliah said:

It's really pretty simple:  don't rip off/steal other people's work.

See my post above.

[Blackbird71]

2 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

This is impossible to nail down with any degree of reliability or clarity.  It is always, always, a judgement call, a purely subjective decision on the part of the GM reviewing the report.

In my experience, things left up to judgment calls are often prone to misinterpretation and abuse.  This is why clear guidelines must be established.  Not inflexible guidelines, but some parameters have to be in place.

 

2 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

I would presume that if a single person makes a large volume of reports, which prove to be unfounded - especially if the resemblence is particularly tenuous - that the GMs will take steps to stem the flow of reports from that player.  Early steps are likely to be messages to the effect of "cut that out", later steps could include disciplinary sanctions up to and including an account ban, should that player persist.

Presumption is akin to assumption, and I prefer not to make the mistake of expecting "everything will be fine" until there is evidence that such is the case.  Better to lay out concerns preemptively than have to address things after they've already gone wrong.

 

2 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

This is not correct.  Player A reporting Player B for possible IP infringement, does not produce automatic action.  A GM will always be required to decide what happens, and then make it so.  ALWAYS.  And as I just said, any single player who generates a high volume of reports, especially in a short period of time, and super-especially if those reports seem tenuous at best?  Is going to be the one the GMs look at with an unfriendly eye.

A fair distinction.  It would have been more correct for me to say that it gives trolls license to attempt to impose their will.  However, I still have my doubts at how effective a volunteer staff will be at properly weeding out false complaints.  I'm grateful for the work that the HC team does, but as they are unpaid and do this out of their free time, I don't expect that a lot of time will be given to reviewing each case, and depending on the volume, I fear that many reports may only get a cursory glance before a decision is made.

 

2 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

There was no epidemic of "trolling" or "griefing" via the report system on Live.  There will be no such epidemic here, either.

Perhaps not, but I have seen similar things in other games, and the posts in these forums from other individuals with "lists of names" ready to report are certainly concerning.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Blackbird71

[PaxArcana]

38 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

In my experience, things left up to judgment calls are often prone to misinterpretation and abuse.  This is why clear guidelines must be established.  Not inflexible guidelines, but some parameters have to be in place.

The problem is, copyright law itself is imprecise.  There is no way Homecoming could be any more precise than the law.  There just isn't.

 

40 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

I fear that many reports may only get a cursory glance before a decision is made.

And I honestly expect that they will err on the side of "no action", due to the very concerns you have raised, in all cases that are not blindingly obvious.

 

41 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Perhaps not, but I have seen similar things in other games, and the posts in these forums from other individuals with "lists of names" ready to report are certainly concerning.

On the one hand, I suspect these people are waxing hyperbolic.

 

On the other, I suspect these people are in fact opposed to the policy, and if they plan to act as described at all, it will be out of a mixture of sour grapes, and, wanting to jam up the works so that their favorite copyclone doesn't get reported.  (I say that because one of the loudest opponents of enforcing copyright law, in DMs to me, claimed to have actually sent word of copies to Marvel/Disney, DC, and other IP holders ... explicitly out of spite, and celebrated the small risk of HC's servers being shut down, or the negotiations with NCSoft going south, as a result.)

[Jimmy]

3 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

There was no epidemic of "trolling" or "griefing" via the report system on Live.  There will be no such epidemic here, either.

This is really important to note. We're not expecting the enforcement of this rule to be any different than it was on live.

 

Abusive use of the reporting system for this reason - as for any reason - will be dealt with appropriately.

[Blackbird71]

9 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

On the other, I suspect these people are in fact opposed to the policy, and if they plan to act as described at all, it will be out of a mixture of sour grapes, and, wanting to jam up the works so that their favorite copyclone doesn't get reported.  (I say that because one of the loudest opponents of enforcing copyright law, in DMs to me, claimed to have actually sent word of copies to Marvel/Disney, DC, and other IP holders ... explicitly out of spite, and celebrated the small risk of HC's servers being shut down, or the negotiations with NCSoft going south, as a result.)

Given that some of the same people have loudly complained about the "lack of creativity" on the part of others (as if they had any authority whatsoever to decide how creative people must be), I highly doubt this interpretation.