DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[Corruption]

What a terrible suggestion. It's also absurd to argue that losing 50% recharge isn't a nerf. It doesn't matter what the intent is, that would be the result. 

[Rathulfr]

6 minutes ago, William Valence said:

You're giving people three instances of power increase for free.

1. They now have an extra power pick
2. They now likely have an extra pool selection (if it was one of the common dip for hasten situations)
3. They now have 20% faster recharge for free just for existing

For as ubiquitously strong as Hasten is, it does come at a cost. Whereas this will, admittedly, make people have to change up their builds a bit to accomplish the same things, 90%+ of things that people can do now, will be able to be done, and will gain more power picks. Yes hasten is strong, not saying it isn't, but so much of it's strength comes from the fact that powers that grant recharge are fairly rare. It seems like people are overestimating the hurt that would come from this, and underestimating the strengths that would come from this.

 

I feel this is a bit shortsighted and would make characters much stronger in the long run for no reason other than not wanting to have to spend a power pick and a pool to get hasten's effect.

Thanks for explaining your objection and responding to my question.

[Rathulfr]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Seriously its turning into a virtual witch hunt when something is enjoyed too much on here to nerf it.

 

That's what will ruin the game - positions like that.

I don't think that's the OP's position, and it does no good to misrepresent it as such.  The OP pointed out an issue they felt was important, and offered a specific suggestion for addressing it.  It might not have been a perfect suggestion, but it wasn't a bad one, either.  And it definitely wasn't based on "this is enjoyed too much, nerf it".

[Moka]

There's some validity in "hasten too necessary" but at the same time, lowering its numbers at all would hurt a lot of builds such as regeneration characters, any dominator, and plenty of other ranged characters. If there's any change, it needs to be made inherent. But I would argue the same for tough/weave. 

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

Which has a constant end cost and provides a much smaller bonus.

Slotted, and on a team built around the leadership pool, a team of masterminds for instance you are given easy mode.

 

Endurance dont matter when your pets do all the work for you.

[Davy]

1 minute ago, Moka said:

There's some validity in "hasten too necessary" but at the same time, lowering its numbers at all would hurt a lot of builds such as regeneration characters, any dominator, and plenty of other ranged characters. If there's any change, it needs to be made inherent. But I would argue the same for tough/weave. 

rip my bloody warshade amirite moaks

[MetaVileTerror]

Ok, so, if the earlier suggestion isn't codeable (though I've got this nagging feeling that there's SOMETHING in the game which has the mechanic I'm envisioning), then how about this:

 

Hasten is taken with nearly every Level 50.   What if we make three or four other Pool Powers which offer the opportunity for a similar level of benefit in a different universal statline?  Make them all mutually exclusive with one another and with Hasten.

Like a Click Power which increases all Control Magnitude by 1 for the duration.

A high-Endurance Toggle which grants +100% to Healing.

An auto Power which grants +25% to "Special" (Buff, Debuff, etc.)

 

Yes, more difficult to balance, but it would definitely offer meaningful choice to the players and Hasten doesn't need to go away.

[AerialAssault]

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

If you are unable to comprehend why balancing powers and powersets/ATs is important, then I don't think you understand game design or the negative ramifications of such imbalances.

 

I think my degree in Games Design begs to differ.

 

You're dragging something down simply because it doesn't fit with a perceived idea of 'balanced'. What is balanced in a game where a Fire Blaster can delete an entire group of enemies from the game with Inferno every minute with even minimal IO slotting? Maybe we should nerf Inferno while we're here.

 

I still honestly do not see the issue with Hasten. Someone attacks faster than you, so what? How does it affect you on a personal level? What does Hasten do that any other number of powers in this game don't already do?

[pesterchum]

If we're going to spend a bunch of time changing a bunch of powersets I'd much rather them look into things like trick arrow where some power combinations have single digit amounts of players than things like hasten where people use it because they feel it makes them more effective.

[Moka]

8 minutes ago, biostem said:

Which has a constant end cost and provides a much smaller bonus.

Hasten already has an end crash, and attacking as fast as possible isn't always the best solution for heavier end characters.

[biostem]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Slotted, and on a team built around the leadership pool, a team of masterminds for instance you are given easy mode.

 

Endurance dont matter when your pets do all the work for you.

Which, as your post pointed out, is only the case in very specific cases;  Hasten is *always* a benefit to have, and provides a much greater buff than the 3-6% or so defense maneuvers grats.  Hasten is great solo, hasten is great on teams, hasten is great full stop.

[Corruption]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Slotted, and on a team built around the leadership pool, a team of masterminds for instance you are given easy mode.

 

Endurance dont matter when your pets do all the work for you.

Mastermind secondaries would make it easy mode, maneuvers would just be icing on the cake. 

[PaxArcana]

37 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I know a whole slew of people who never take it.  So not everyone does take it. 

I'm one of them, actually.

 

I have one possible build that can, eventually, someday, perma-Hasten.  Otherwise, eh.  Not even my Superspeed characters necessarily take Hasten.

[Rathulfr]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

The question becomes whether things like perma-dom/perma-lightform/etc should, from a gameplay perspective, even be a thing.  Frankly, does anybody really care about swift, hurdle, health being made inherent?  It's really just stamina that everyone wanted.  I'd have preferred removing the power and just adjusting the global end recovery rate.  Similarly, maybe overall recharge times on powers should be examined/adjusted and hasten should be removed.

 

I think that was the thinking behind @Steampunkette's post: fix the overall recharge times to eliminate the need for Hasten in the first place.  However, pitching that idea as "Delete Hasten" was probably not the best approach.

 

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I don't think that's the OP's position, and it does no good to misrepresent it as such.  The OP pointed out an issue they felt was important, and offered a specific suggestion for addressing it.  It might not have been a perfect suggestion, but it wasn't a bad one, either.  And it definitely wasn't based on "this is enjoyed too much, nerf it".

Well I've read more than one post that may not have said that directly but that is the direction they were heading about it.

 

There is an increasing amount of nerf herding here on the forums lately.

 

None of what is being discussed on any of those threads has or will break the game.

 

I've never once had anyone leave a team because the use of hasten pissed them off.

[Davy]

Just now, AerialAssault said:

I still honestly do not see the issue with Hasten. Someone attacks faster than you, so what? How does it affect you on a personal level? What does Hasten do that any other number of powers in this game don't already do?

AA please think of the ramifications of the continued, unopposed existence of Hasten.

 

You have to spend an entire Power Pick just to get it.

[MunkiLord]

14 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Okay, then how about we address the discrepancies instead of crying "nerf"?

I have. Until a suggestion means I keep a global recharge bonus of 70%, it's a bad idea. If it requires more effort(meaning more global recharge) to keep that 70%, it's a bad idea. If I have to respec to keep my perma hasten levels of global recharge, it's a bad idea. When it comes to nerfing Hasten, I'm out. Any change to Hasten that has a negative impact on any of my characters, is a bad idea. I have no interest in helping anybody tweak their terrible idea, because we have different goals. It's a waste of my time and theirs. I'm against changes that will negatively impact every single one of my characters.

 

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

Which, as your post pointed out, is only the case in very specific cases;  Hasten is *always* a benefit to have, and provides a much greater buff than the 3-6% or so defense maneuvers grats.  Hasten is great solo, hasten is great on teams, hasten is great full stop.

Maneuvers is unbeatable on teams built around it, nothing hits you.

 

You can only attack as fast as the animation times will allow, maneuvers especially stacked maneuvers allows 100% dodge 100% of the time.

 

Hasten may recharge faster but you are still limited by animation times.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Infinitum

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, biostem said:

The question becomes whether things like perma-dom/perma-lightform/etc should, from a gameplay perspective, even be a thing.  Frankly, does anybody really care about swift, hurdle, health being made inherent?  It's really just stamina that everyone wanted.  I'd have preferred removing the power and just adjusting the global end recovery rate.  Similarly, maybe overall recharge times on powers should be examined/adjusted and hasten should be removed.

I guess the question is do you rebalance the whole game at this point? 

 

This is probably why hasten was never removed or nerfed on live.

 

If you were designing COH2 you wouldn't have things like perma hasten and perma dom. 

 

Your IO system would have been much more tightly controlled.

 

You wouldn't have a defense softcap, but resistance hardcaps

 

You would of considered animation time into dps.

 

ETC

 

But do you do that now?  Wholesale?  A huge rebalancing effort? 

 

Or do you accept things like hasten and rage and permadom are part of your game?  

[biostem]

1 minute ago, AerialAssault said:

I think my degree in Games Design begs to differ.

 

You're dragging something down simply because it doesn't fit with a perceived idea of 'balanced'. What is balanced in a game where a Fire Blaster can delete an entire group of enemies from the game with Inferno every minute with even minimal IO slotting? Maybe we should nerf Inferno while we're here.

 

I still honestly do not see the issue with Hasten. Someone attacks faster than you, so what? How does it affect you on a personal level? What does Hasten do that any other number of powers in this game don't already do?

Having a degree in something doesn't make you good at it - it just means you managed to retain and regurgitate the requisite information.  You seem hyper focused on this idea that "if it doesn't affect you personally, then it's not a problem", and that's simply a myopic approach to take.  As for your fire blaster example - they trade more damage for other potentially useful effects in their powers.  You deflect deflect deflect, but can't seem to grasp how a meta-power with such a huge benefit can be a problem.

[Starforge]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Or do you accept things like hasten and rage and permadom are part of your game?

Most people do accept this.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Moka said:

Hasten already has an end crash, and attacking as fast as possible isn't always the best solution for heavier end characters.

Except that it's not just about "attacking as fast as possible" - it's about using your best powers as often as possible, in lieu of having to create/manage a more realistic attack chain.

[Rathulfr]

2 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I have. Until a suggestion means I keep a global recharge bonus of 70%, it's a bad idea. If it requires more effort(meaning more global recharge) to keep that 70%, it's a bad idea. If I have to respec to keep my perma hasten levels of global recharge, it's a bad idea. When it comes to nerfing Hasten, I'm out. Any change to Hasten that has a negative impact on any of my characters, is a bad idea. I have no interest in helping anybody tweak their terrible idea, because we have different goals. It's a waste of my time and theirs. I'm against changes that will negatively impact every single one of my characters.

 

Fair enough.

[Waypoint]

I think we should delete all the underutilized powers and archetypes from the flavor of the month thread.

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Maneuvers is unbeatable on teams built around it, nothing hits you.

Teams.  TEAMS.  So if 8 people take it AND they slot it, then it's really good.  Not the same.