Questions on Melee ATs

[Samyrmancer]

I have a few questions, if you don't mind, about the different melee ATs and as Scrappers seem the most research oriented, I thought I'd ask you. Please keep in mind that I don't mean to elevate any one AT above others - I'm generalizing based on "conventional wisdom."

 

Please correct me if I am confused because I think I must be.

 

Tanker

• Shrugs off huge damage
• Does very little damage
• Procs taunt with every hit
• People say they are almost too good at taking damage and it's overkill.

 

Brutes

• Can be made very defensive
• Does huge damage IF you can keep their fury up
• Fury drains very quickly
• People say they do the most damage in the game with fury maxed but do low damage otherwise. They also make great tanks but don't have the taunt proc and so don't do it as well as tankers.

 

Scrappers

• Can be made meh defensive
• Does huge damage because of 10% crit chance
• Damage is very consistent.
• People say they only do damage

 

Stalkers

• Can be made meh defensive
• Does huge damage because of 10% crit chance AND +3% for each person in party
• Can crit almost on demand due to hide and Assassin's Strike's autocrit
• People don't play them often because they used to suck.

 

So, here are my two questions:

 

1. If all ATs cap defense at 45% and dam resist at 75%, why are the different ATs better/worse at tanking. Why do tanks do so much better than anyone else? Why do brutes do better than scrappers/stalkers if they both reach 45/75?
   Does going higher help? But then, can't they all go higher if they want? Is there an AT multiplier in there somewhere?
    
2. If Stalkers get +3% crit chance per other person in the group and can crit almost on demand, why do scrappers run neck and neck in ST damage and pull ahead in AE damage?
   Again, is there an AT multiplier in there somewhere that I don't know about?

 

I do a lot of planning with Pine's and neither question makes any sense to me. I'm not talking about power sets and primaries vs secondaries, I'm asking why the numbers you see don't seem to play out in the real world.

 

Please help!

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Samyrmancer said:

I have a few questions, if you don't mind, about the different melee ATs and as Scrappers seem the most research oriented, I thought I'd ask you. Please keep in mind that I don't mean to elevate any one AT above others - I'm generalizing based on "conventional wisdom."

 

Please correct me if I am confused because I think I must be.

 

Tanker

• Shrugs off huge damage
• Does very little damage
• Procs taunt with every hit
• People say they are almost too good at taking damage and it's overkill.

 

Brutes

• Can be made very defensive
• Does huge damage IF you can keep their fury up
• Fury drains very quickly
• People say they do the most damage in the game with fury maxed but do low damage otherwise. They also make great tanks but don't have the taunt proc and so don't do it as well as tankers.

 

Scrappers

• Can be made meh defensive
• Does huge damage because of 10% crit chance
• Damage is very consistent.
• People say they only do damage

 

Stalkers

• Can be made meh defensive
• Does huge damage because of 10% crit chance AND +3% for each person in party
• Can crit almost on demand due to hide and Assassin's Strike's autocrit
• People don't play them often because they used to suck.

 

So, here are my two questions:

 

1. If all ATs cap defense at 45% and dam resist at 75%, why are the different ATs better/worse at tanking. Why do tanks do so much better than anyone else? Why do brutes do better than scrappers/stalkers if they both reach 45/75?
   Does going higher help? But then, can't they all go higher if they want? Is there an AT multiplier in there somewhere?
    
2. If Stalkers get +3% crit chance per other person in the group and can crit almost on demand, why do scrappers run neck and neck in ST damage and pull ahead in AE damage?
   Again, is there an AT multiplier in there somewhere that I don't know about?

 

I do a lot of planning with Pine's and neither question makes any sense to me. I'm not talking about power sets and primaries vs secondaries, I'm asking why the numbers you see don't seem to play out in the real world.

 

Please help!

Well you are kinda right, but wrong also.

 

Tanks and Brutes cap resist at 90%

 

On tanks its a lot easier on any resist based set to cap resists than on brutes.

 

Tanks manage agro better than brutes.

 

Brutes can tank but you have to invest a ton more in sets and also time, but still can't manage agro better than a tank.

 

All ATs share the defense soft cap at 45% not just melee.

 

Personally that's why on scrapper or stalker I choose defense based sets like SR or hybrid like shield that can also soft cap defense easily.

 

I usually at least shoot for the incarnate soft cap on defense based melee ATs which is around 60-65% defense.

 

On blasters defenders or controllers I shoot for 45% ranged 40-45% aoe and avoid melee range and use ageless radial for the destiny incarnate slot.

 

So ultimately you can take point with any AT if you build it right, but tanks and brutes are a lot more sturdy than the rest.

 

If you are looking to effortlessly survive just about anything while sacrificing damage output pick a tank or brute.

 

If you want to outdamage anything melee related pick a stalker or scrapper depending if you want in your face Scrapperlock or strategy hiding picking your target stalker.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Infinitum

[Microcosm]

Tanks and brutes have a 90% resist caps, not 75%. They also have higher hp and Max hp (tanks the most), which also means regen gives more hp back for the same percentage. And, in the case of tanks, their protection is in the primary set instead of secondary. This means the base numbers on those powers are slightly higher.

 

Scrapper v stalker damage, stalkers outstrip scrappers in single target except in cases where power sets aren't available to stalkers (Titan weapons), or powers in the sets that help with dps may have been replace to add stalker specific powers or make them not hurt hide. For example, you won't find a damage aura in stalker secondaries. For AoE, there's usually an aoe attack missing from the set to make room for assassin's strike and placate on stalkers. This is not true on every set, such as elec melee.

[Hopeling]

1 hour ago, Samyrmancer said:

If all ATs cap defense at 45% and dam resist at 75%, why are the different ATs better/worse at tanking. Why do tanks do so much better than anyone else? Why do brutes do better than scrappers/stalkers if they both reach 45/75?

They don't. Brutes and tankers can have 90% resists, and have more HP than scrappers or stalkers do. 90% resistance is 2.5x tougher than 75% resistance.

 

That said, scrappers and stalkers can still be incredibly tough, far beyond "meh". What they cannot do well is tank, because tanking is not just a question of durability, but also aggro management. Brutes and tankers have [Taunt] and taunt effects on all their attacks; Scrappers and Stalkers do not.

1 hour ago, Samyrmancer said:

If Stalkers get +3% crit chance per other person in the group and can crit almost on demand, why do scrappers run neck and neck in ST damage and pull ahead in AE damage?

Because scrappers have higher base damage. Specifically, scrappers do 1/8 more damage with all attacks. Scale 1 damage with a 31% crit rate comes out to 1.31 average; scale 1.125 damage with a 10% crit rate comes out to 1.24 average, which is pretty close. Without a team, the scrapper has the same crit rate and deals more damage.

 

Stalker primaries all have Assassin Strike in place of some other attack, usually an AoE attack.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Hopeling

[Frosticus]

plus sets like bio armor and fire armor, which are very offensively based are even more offensive on scrappers.

bio offers a damage aura and -resistance 

fire offers a damage aura and fiery embrace

 

even if stalkers drop the damage aura for hide which is a fair trade, the other damage boosting powers are lost and they make a big difference.

[Croax]

Stalkers not only have a higher crit chance, they also have the assassin's focus going on. That does give you consistent crits without any teammate. Stalkers and Scrappers are very close to each other damage wise.

 

I think you should try to look at the different melee ATs and look at the different playstyles and not which powers on which AT have cleartimes for very specific content or pylon dps. Theses extra crafted specs for extra special content performs not so well in other areas of the game. Also if you are looking at melee ATs there are Banes and Widows, which both perform very well while bringing huge group support on the table unlike the ATs you listed.

 

Deciding which AT suits you well, should come down to questions like:

 

Will you be soloing a lot?

Do you like to farm the same map over and over again?

Will you be doing any incarnate content?

Do you want to tank or at least be able to do it?

Do you give a damm about other teamnates, even if you do group content? (Maybe this toon should be a villain😛)

Edited October 2, 2019 by Croax

[Uun]

11 hours ago, Microcosm said:

Tanks and brutes have a 90% resist caps, not 75%. They also have higher hp and Max hp (tanks the most), which also means regen gives more hp back for the same percentage. And, in the case of tanks, their protection is in the primary set instead of secondary. This means the base numbers on those powers are slightly higher.

Not slightly higher, 33.3% higher. It's a lot easier for a tank to get to the 90% resist cap than a brute.

[Haijinx]

Stalkers also have insanely good ATOs, so the difference is noticeable.  

 

Scrappers and Stalkers are only meh defensive compared to Tankers.   Otherwise they are pretty good.  

[biostem]

So, OP, there are a few things to keep in mind:

 

1. Initially, villains could not make tankers or scrappers - brutes and stalkers basically filled those two roles, (more or less).

 

2. Each AT is "meant" to fill a different role - for instance, tankers generate an AoE taunt with their attacks, brutes generate a single target taunt, and scrappers/stalkers do not generate any taunts with their regular attacks, (scrappers get a single-target taunt ability, but that's separate and completely optional).

 

3. To the best of my knowledge, scrappers have the highest base damage modifier on their attacks, but brutes have the highest cap on just how high their powers' damage numbers can go.  Similarly, tankers have the most HP and stalkers the fewest.

 

4. If you look at the powersets that multiple ATs have access to, there are changes to how some of them function and when each AT gains access to them.

 

Honestly, I look at it in terms of the "whole package", and not just who has the most damage or best defenses;  Some armor sets boost your damage, and some melee sets provide better survival tools...

Edited October 3, 2019 by biostem

[Tsuko]

On 10/3/2019 at 1:47 AM, biostem said:

 

1. Initially, villains could not make tankers or scrappers - brutes and stalkers basically fille those two roles, (more or less).

 

 

This is the main point, imo.

 

We spent years in CoV clearing all the content (i will never forget the pleasure to clear the RSF the first time with SO builds...) with Brutes as tanks.

 

And all was smooth : Brutes are perfectly good at tanking content.

 

Brutes tend to tank with the "scrapper best defense" in mind : dead things will not hurt your team.

 

The OP points directly to the core of CoX design : you can play a "holy trinity" game (huge wall tanks with no damage + glass canon damage dealer + glass canon support) or a more hybrid game which is basically what City of vilains added to the game.

 

"Now" Incarnates blurred even more the borders between AT : Scrappers can tank a good part of the endgame content with ease : my Titan Weapon / Bio-Armor scrapper solo kill a rikti pylon in 77 seconds and can tank APEX or tin Mage 2 with no major issues.

On 10/2/2019 at 3:48 AM, Samyrmancer said:

So, here are my two questions:

 

1. If all ATs cap defense at 45% and dam resist at 75%, why are the different ATs better/worse at tanking. Why do tanks do so much better than anyone else? Why do brutes do better than scrappers/stalkers if they both reach 45/75?
   Does going higher help? But then, can't they all go higher if they want? Is there an AT multiplier in there somewhere?
    
2. If Stalkers get +3% crit chance per other person in the group and can crit almost on demand, why do scrappers run neck and neck in ST damage and pull ahead in AE damage?
   Again, is there an AT multiplier in there somewhere that I don't know about?

1. As said above : tanks and brutes have 90% resist cap 🙂

Def and resist are extremly important but there are others "layers" of resilience in the game like Health / Regen / Absorb.

Those 3 "brothers" stats are very important and tied together : the more Hp you have, the more Regen and absorb you can have (and absorb benefit from both res and def).

 

2. not all the scrappers "reign supreme" on the pure DPS department : there is only one monster, Titan Weapons Scrappers : they (we :p) are the tree hiding the whole forest.

Titan Weapon scrappers can more or less do what a stalker can do in single target and have better area damage DPS.

 

Here is a screenshot of my last test run for my new build : a 4 seconds of "TW fun" with a ATO +50% chance to crit proc

 

 

 

 

- Stalkers deal extreme damage but at the cost of team utility (well 2 shotin' any boss is a form of team utility on his own :D)

- Scrappers deal extreme damage but less on demand, aside, scrappers (and Bio armors one's especially) almost have as much taunt utilities than brutes.

 

Other things to consider is the "weight" of each AT in a team : Brutes clearly prefer to be alone to agro cause of fury management

Edited October 29, 2020 by Tsuko

[Haijinx]

Stalkers only lose AOE on older sets

 

On Newer sets they have just as many AOEs as scrappers.   

 

With all those extra buildups, AOE crits from hide, and Hide during combat refreshes. 

[Snakebit]

Stalkers are the bee's knees. They got it right. I wish there were more Stalker oriented content, where stealth matters more than fighting but I get why there isn't. 

[TheAdjustor]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Stalkers also have insanely good ATOs, so the difference is noticeable.  

 

Scrappers and Stalkers are only meh defensive compared to Tankers.   Otherwise they are pretty good.  

Really never did get the live devs doing that. They were going to sell ATOs no matter what, giving what was the most popular AT even better toys was just a what are they thinking moment.

[Frostweaver]

I don't. Lots of people can get concealment and stealth IO's

 

All those 'automatically see through stealth' for 'story reasons' is like your DM randomely killing one of the PC's that players have been working on for years just to 'prove that the story is serious'.

When I play a Stalker I don't want to be a red shirt.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Samyrmancer]

OP here! 

I've read everyone's comments and I agree with all of them but one. I don't want to spend all of my time quoting everyone, especially since some things were said by multiple people, so please just know that if what I'm saying seems to agree with what you said, it's because I do.

 

You have all answered my question. There is something, that is not solely in the numbers, that separates the ATs. @Hopeling says it most clearly: there is an AT multiplier that bumps some ATs at some roles. Each AT has ways to counter that multiplier and rise above it, but generally, just because you and a tanker have the same defense and dam resist does not mean you will be able to take damage like that tanker. This may sound obvious, I just wanted to confirm it.

 

Which leads to the sole area where I do not agree. I think that there is a time when you should pick the AT that best matches your playstyle and play it. That time is with your first character. After that first character, by all means, have at it. The first person that played a blapper was playing a blaster "wrong" - only it wasn't wrong once he successfully did it.  The person who tries to tank with a brute, or even a scrapper, is playing them correctly if they enjoy it.

 

I played ranged for a long time. I wanted a character that was mostly controller but also threw out big damage numbers. I made a 50 fire/kin/mace controller. I had fun but wasn't throwing out big damage numbers. Nor was I using the majority of my controller powers and I distinctly did not want to play "up close" the way Kins need to. So I made the same character - same costume, name, everything, as a Dominator. Pretty big damage numbers, but I still used hardly any controller powers so Domination was wasted and I paid no attention to the pets beyond summoning them. So I rerolled - same name, same costume - a fire/fire/fire blaster. Finally, I got the controller I wanted. Cauterizing Aura, Hot Feet, Bonfire, stand in the bonfire and blast blast blast. When they get close, inferno, fire sword circle, blast blast blast. It has control, big numbers, PBAoE and blasts. My blaster is my perfect controller.

 

I have a very effective stalker. BS/SD/Body. Big swings, good defense. I want to top him. My perfect melee character can deal tons of damage when another tank is present. He can run around stealthed to go anywhere. He can also step in and pinch tank if there are no tanks on, giving up the tank role when one is found. Oh - and she never dies. I don't think a tanker can become that. I'm pretty sure a brute can but I have now played 5-6 brutes and not liked any of them. Can a scrapper do it? I'm thinking yes. Can a stalker do it? I'm also thinking yes. So, which one do I want to spend the next two months trying to do it with? I am certain that I could make the character I want out of a brute. However, I don't think I will enjoy playing a brute the way a brute needs to be played to do it. I don't like rushing from fight to fight while watching the fury bar fall. It's too stressful. So, stalker or scrapper. 

 

Stalkers changed a lot in i24. Their max hit points went up and they crit even more now than they used to. People claim that stalkers and scrapper have exactly the same defense in that enhancements have the same values for both classes. I assume that is true?

 

Stalker vs Scrapper damage. My stalker can crit pretty much on demand. Scrappers get the  +50% crit proc that seems godly to me. Seems to be a wash. 

 

I loved your comments. You all had a great deal of information and I appreciate you sharing it. I'd love to hear you feelings on nb/invuln stalker vs katana/invuln scrapper. Keeping in mind that I want to do big damage, stealth wherever I want (scrappers can do it too) and pinch tank. I will take the character to purple sets, +5 enhancements and at least T3. It will take a long time, but it's what I enjoy doing. 

 

PS: I know TW is the bomb. I know it puts out the best damage. However, I've now tried to play it three times and it drives me nuts. It feels sooooo slow. I hear it gets better, but I don't want to be miserable the whole time I'm leveling. I also prefer the look of DB to Katana (I think axe/elemental sword looks awesome) but DB puts out much lower damage. Put together, I am going to avoid TW despite being too awesome but going to also give up DB because it's not awesome enough.

[Infinitum]

32 minutes ago, Samyrmancer said:

OP here! 

I've read everyone's comments and I agree with all of them but one. I don't want to spend all of my time quoting everyone, especially since some things were said by multiple people, so please just know that if what I'm saying seems to agree with what you said, it's because I do.

 

You have all answered my question. There is something, that is not solely in the numbers, that separates the ATs. @Hopeling says it most clearly: there is an AT multiplier that bumps some ATs at some roles. Each AT has ways to counter that multiplier and rise above it, but generally, just because you and a tanker have the same defense and dam resist does not mean you will be able to take damage like that tanker. This may sound obvious, I just wanted to confirm it.

 

Which leads to the sole area where I do not agree. I think that there is a time when you should pick the AT that best matches your playstyle and play it. That time is with your first character. After that first character, by all means, have at it. The first person that played a blapper was playing a blaster "wrong" - only it wasn't wrong once he successfully did it.  The person who tries to tank with a brute, or even a scrapper, is playing them correctly if they enjoy it.

Not entirely accurate, if a brute has the same dam res and defense as a tank the hp difference isnt going to be consequential enough to matter.

 

Both will be equally survivable.

 

The tank will maintain and manage agro better, and the tank will also be cheaper and easier to get to that cap and the brute may have to sacrifice some damage output to get to the cap.

 

Cool thing about CoH is you can play your blaster like a tank if you want.  Won't be as effective but entirely possible if you want it to do that.

[biostem]

42 minutes ago, Samyrmancer said:

Which leads to the sole area where I do not agree. I think that there is a time when you should pick the AT that best matches your playstyle and play it. That time is with your first character. After that first character, by all means, have at it. The first person that played a blapper was playing a blaster "wrong" - only it wasn't wrong once he successfully did it.  The person who tries to tank with a brute, or even a scrapper, is playing them correctly if they enjoy it.

The thing is, how do you define "playing... wrong"?  If you mean that you aren't taking advantage of the feature of your powers, (for instance, the range inherent in most of a blaster's primary powers), then yes, playing a melee blaster "blapper" is playing the AT wrong.  If, however, you define "playing... wrong" as "not accomplishing the primary purpose of your chosen archetype", then a blapper *is* actually playing said AT correctly, as a blaster's primary role is damage and killing enemies quickly;  If you're able to accomplish that, while in melee, without dying, then you've played your character correctly.  OTOH, if you define "playing... wrong" as "not having fun while playing", then play any AT however you like, and you've been successful!

[Haijinx]

The scrapper ATOs are good.

 

The stalker ATOs are awesome.

 

Definitely in favor of Stalkers. 

 

The defenses of Scrappers are usually slightly better in that the Stalker versions give up something for hide, and they also have something different than the standard taunt aura survival power.

 

[Williwaw]

Just a note that Scrappers, Stalkers, and Brutes have exactly the same multipliers on their defensive powers (so they get the same defensive benefits from the same power), but Stalkers give up a defensive power for Hide and have lower HP than Scrappers or Brutes, while Brutes have higher HP and a higher Resistance cap than Scrappers or Stalkers.  Brutes can be hardier than Scrappers and Stalkers if you build for it, but you have to build for it.  It won't happen on its own.  Brutes make slightly better off-tanks than Scrappers due to their inherent taunting, but a well-built Scrapper is not exactly a fragile flower.  Stalkers probably shouldn't be used to tank (since their whole gimmick is *not* being noticed), but they also have decent defenses.

 

On the other hand, Tankers have higher defensive values, a higher resistance cap, and the highest max HP in the game. Even with the same defensive powers and the same enhancements, they'll be hardier than any of the other three melee classes. They do less damage than the other three melee ATs, but not "very little" damage.  In fact, their base damage scales are higher than Brutes, but Brutes have Fury and a much higher damage buff cap to make up for it.  (However, be aware that Tankers are undergoing testing to make them more effective offensively, at the cost of being a little worse at team support, so anything I say about them now may no longer be true in the near future) 

 

While there's no "wrong" way to play any of them (as long as you're not dying or killing your teammates), Scrapper is designed as an offensive powerhouse (Melee 10, Defense 7), Tanker a defensive powerhouse (Melee 7, Defense 10), Brute a fast-moving offensive off-tank (Melee 9, Defense 8), and Stalker a stealthy single-target juggernaut (Melee 10, Defense 7).

[Snakebit]

13 hours ago, Samyrmancer said:

Stalker vs Scrapper damage. My stalker can crit pretty much on demand. Scrappers get the  +50% crit proc that seems godly to me. Seems to be a wash. 

 

It isn't. Scrapper Crit ATO is only good for 3.5 seconds and the animation of the attack must finish inside that duration, so long duration powers like Spine Burst or Thunder Strike are kinda hosed. It's awesome for builds with 2 damage aura's/really fast animating attacks. Not so much for the big hitters. 

 

Stalkers also get the Build up proc, which refreshes the recharge on the Build Up power. It triggers globally, meaning it will fire from any attack, not just the attack it's slotted to. I have seen it fire 3 times in a row. I can with my BS stalker from time to time run for 30-40 seconds under the Build Up buff with a couple of procs from Gaussian  You figure careful management of AS hide proc and placate for crit on demand, coupled with the team +crit bonus and you will leave a BS scrapper in the dust for damage output.  Way way behind.  The hardest part is efficient target switching so you don't overdamage with the T8/9. 

 

 

 Additionally, the stealth proc fires more often than the scrapper crit proc. The scrapper crit proc is only good for 3.5 seconds, and the animation of the attack has to complete before the timer ends. 

 

Building and slotting a stalker to outdamage a scrapper with the same attack set is trivially easy. It's just expensive.

 

That said there are OFC scrapper builds that will run neck in neck with a stalker builds, and I can't imagine solo farming +4/8 on a stalker but I'm sure there are people who do. Probably not as quickly as say spine/bio, but it would be doable. I haven't tried a Elec/SD stalker but since Chain Induction, LR and SC don't crit the scrapper version has to be better. 

[MunkiLord]

6 hours ago, cejmp said:

I haven't tried a Elec/SD stalker but since Chain Induction, LR and SC don't crit the scrapper version has to be better. 

True, but LR and SC also don't break Hide. So a Stalker can lead with those(though no AAO buff while in Hide), then crit with Thunderstrike. Plus the ST damage is superior because of AS. My first 50 on HC was an Elec/SD Scrapper, and she's awesome. But if I had to do it again I'd make her a Stalker.