Taskforce sabatage

[Mansome]

So last night while doing a TF we had several near wipes on a TF. This was my first time really tanking since live servers. At first I was thinking it was me being a bit rusty at getting and holding the aggro but by the last mission I realized it wasn't me. There was a blaster going ahead of the group into the next two spawns and pulling everything back to the team. While at level 50 this probably wouldn't be much of a problem, at low levels most of the team will not have the Powers to deal with this. Needless to say I had to put the blaster on notice for getting us killed repeatedly.

Have any of you had to deal with this kind of behavior in groups? 

[Lines]

Without a doubt, the biggest threat in the game is a player who can’t be communicated with.

 

The type I’ve seen regularly is on ITF, when one munchkin would run from cyst to cyst on the second mission and just assume that the rest of the team is following him or are capable of dealing with the ambushes. 

 

Capable or not, I’ve decided I’ll start leaving TFs when this happens. It’s just straight up rude.

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

Without a doubt, the biggest threat in the game is a player who can’t be communicated with.

 

The type I’ve seen regularly is on ITF, when one munchkin would run from cyst to cyst on the second mission and just assume that the rest of the team is following him or are capable of dealing with the ambushes. 

 

Capable or not, I’ve decided I’ll start leaving TFs when this happens. It’s just straight up rude.

This is acceptable on speed runs. For the ITF specifically I think the biggest issue is the leader not setting the expectations during the team recruiting process. Though to be fair I feel that in general people forming the ITF have gotten better about this.

[Lines]

Oh absolutely. It’d be weird to meticulously pick off every roman in a speed ITF. If that’s what folks have agreed to, then absolutely play it that way.

 

But the unsolicited speed runner is usually one rando in the PuG who’s decided to just take off. I’ve been in a case where the leader has asked them to stick with the team but they silently cracked on as if they think they’re doing everyone a favour.

 

That’s my biggest bugbear with PuGs anyway. It doesn’t happen often, but I get sad when it does. I kinda wanna just play the game.

[Scientist]

I actually had someone quit a Market Crash TF a couple of months ago about 15 minutes in because "it wasn't challenging enough".  If you have particular expectations for how a TF is going to go (speed, kill all, etc.) they should be communicated, and that goes for a team member as well, not just the leader.  It is perfectly fine to want to run your TF on +4/x8, or run it slow and read all the dialogue, or stealth everything, but ask before you start so you end up with a whole team who wants to do it that way.  Unlike radios or even a mission arc, you can't get replacement members on a TF.  

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

But the unsolicited speed runner is usually one rando in the PuG who’s decided to just take off. I’ve been in a case where the leader has asked them to stick with the team but they silently cracked on as if they think they’re doing everyone a favour.

Had this happen on a Pitstop TF the other day.  One player kept running ahead, despite the leader repeatedly asking her to stop.  When we got to the final mission, she ATT-ed everyone straight to the final room...and the leader ATT-ed everyone right back to the beginning to fight through.  When we did catch up, leader kicked her right before Clamor went down.  Normally, I'd find that to be kind of a jerk move, but it's not like she wasn't given a few "warnings".

 

Personally, I just ask up front when I get on a TF and it wasn't pre-established: "speed or stomp?"  Or if I'm on a stealthy/teleporty-type, I'll convey such once and then, if not asked to do so, will fight with a group.

[Sanguinesun]

4 hours ago, Mansome said:

So last night while doing a TF we had several near wipes on a TF. This was my first time really tanking since live servers. At first I was thinking it was me being a bit rusty at getting and holding the aggro but by the last mission I realized it wasn't me. There was a blaster going ahead of the group into the next two spawns and pulling everything back to the team. While at level 50 this probably wouldn't be much of a problem, at low levels most of the team will not have the Powers to deal with this. Needless to say I had to put the blaster on notice for getting us killed repeatedly.

Have any of you had to deal with this kind of behavior in groups? 

 

Often times, especially in the lower level tf's folks running ahead are relatively new/rusty to CoH.  In other situations, it can be where say for example one person is a brute who has tunnel vision with wanting to keep their fury high and running from group to group.  etc etc etc etc

 

But I think its a bit silly to take the default stance from the title of your thread that said player was "sabotaging" the task force.  They more than likely weren't intentionally trying to cause it to fail.  Again they simply may not have known better, were impatient with the speed/pace the team was going, thought the team would want to kill in larger sum groups etc etc.

 

All in all, its up to the folks on the team to speak up and try to get the other person(s) to understand what is going on.  If they balk and working with the group then you and the team know they are intentionally trying to cause problems and then its up to the person with the lead to then decide if its best for the team if said person moved on to greener pastures.

[The_Cheeseman]

I admit, I am one of those that prefer to run ahead or go down a different passage to solo cysts.

Honestly, as a dominator, it's just easier for me to go alone, because I have better control of where the MOBs are going and can leverage my controls and AoEs more effectively. It's annoying when I confuse the cyclopses/minotaurs and then all the melee grunts dogpile it, wasting all that extra damage output.

 

It's like how people complain that control ATs are useless on teams because things die too quickly. I avoid that problem by going off on my own and soloing stuff. If the team seems to be in trouble I can always zip over there and bail them out, but otherwise I figure it's just a divide and conquer strategy that saves us all time. Seems like wasted potential, otherwise.

[Sidious]

had someone on a BAF last night. Refused to follow directions and stay with the group while doing the escapees.

League leader had to kick them after several tries to get them to read the chat and follow instructions.

[Lines]

7 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

I admit, I am one of those that prefer to run ahead or go down a different passage to solo cysts.

Honestly, as a dominator, it's just easier for me to go alone, because I have better control of where the MOBs are going and can leverage my controls and AoEs more effectively. It's annoying when I confuse the cyclopses/minotaurs and then all the melee grunts dogpile it, wasting all that extra damage output.

 

It's like how people complain that control ATs are useless on teams because things die too quickly. I avoid that problem by going off on my own and soloing stuff. If the team seems to be in trouble I can always zip over there and bail them out, but otherwise I figure it's just a divide and conquer strategy that saves us all time. Seems like wasted potential, otherwise.

 

It sounds like you’re actually fighting the mobs around the cysts too, plus the ambushes. These individual munchkins were just hitting the ten cysts to complete the mission speedrun style, disregarding the nictus and the ambushes. (I could have been clearer)

 

I’d not mind at all if I could see that you were taking your time in your direction; I still get a chance to play the game as well in a different direction.

 

And I admit to probably being one of the melee grunts hacking down your confused EBs.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Lines

[Marine X]

The preference between Speed Running or Just doing the Mission is one that really gets personal. I prefer to play the game for the games sake. I waited for YEARS to get this chance to Play again and don't understand this desire to speed through EVERYTHING. I understand to a point wanting to set a new Fastest completion time, but when you do everything you do that way it's just Min-Maxing. I go with whatever the Person with the STAR says, If they say fast, off we go, If they just want to do the mission, off we go. If you don't want to do the mission WITH the TEAM, you should be SOLOING, pretty simple. You can always quit, form your own team and since you have the star do whatever floats your boat. I've been on teams with my defender where the Tank/Brute would bounce from group to group not holding aggro, and leaving all sorts of stragglers behind, just to get 2 mobs ahead of everybody else. Went through more Awakens than I care to mention on that, and it really wasn't fun for anyone but them. I guess you have to think about why you were invited to the team, usually I'm thinking the team thought you were going to be helping them not indulging yourself.

[THEDarkTyger]

A while back running Posi1, things were going great. Then we hit a CoT mission that was a bit rough at our level and had one wipe. A miscommunication wound up with the team splitting down a hall and pulling 2 spawns at once. Suddenly the tank started going off on everyone. We managed to calm her down and take another whack at it. In a big room with multiple spawns, we went one way, tank went the other. Another wipe, Tank's having a foul-mouthed meltdown over stupid noobs and drops team. One or two others follow. The rest of us kinda stare at each other and decide to drop and reform to try fresh. Gather up a full team, and the whole thing goes off without a hitch on try #2. Which tells us the problem was the tank who was so bent on blaming the rest of us for being "noobs"...

[quixoteprog]

I think chaos and team wipes are fine, as long as everyone knows what to expect going in. All it takes if for the team leader to talk at least a LITTLE bit to the people joining. Just give a short explanation on your expectations. Even if it is just, "I don't plan on using any strategy, just kill stuff and do whatever". It will let people know what to expect and they can stay or leave as they please. If you want to do corner pulling and expect people to stick together then just say so up front.

 

I was in one team where we wiped a couple times and then managed to survive better after a bit of adjustment but one guy wanted to slow things down and do some corner pulling and be more methodical. Another complained that "what we are doing is working now, so why bother?" I finally wished everyone well and left the team because I can take wipes and XP debt much better than inter-party bickering.

 

Lest anyone think I am trying to paint myself as Mr. Perfect, I will give an example of my own ignorance and how I learned from it.

 

I knew very little about any content past issue 3-4 when I came back and so for the first couple months I never did DFB. I ignored all the spam for it in LFG channel because I was just happy doing the regular content. When I finally did it I thought it was some of the best content in the game. Not worth endlessly repeating it, but fun enough that I now run it about 3-4 times with each new guy to get them into their teens to early 20s.

 

When I first ran it however, I got booted from the team after the first run. You see the guy running it got mad because I did not listen to him about how to earn the boss badges. He had mentioned something about badges WHILE we were running it. The problem is he waited until right before the boss fight to hastily mention in chat and people were already starting the fight when I saw it. I did not pay much attention and killed a couple zombies and he got mad.

 

Needless to say we did not get the badges on that run.

 

I read up on it afterwards and once I learned what the hell he was talking about I now make a point BEFORE any DFB run to ask in team chat, "Are we doing the badges on this run, or does everyone already have them." And then, if anyone says they need them, give a quick explanation how you get them, because it is very simple. You just need a few minutes to explain it. And do it while everyone is standing around waiting and not frantically smashing buttons in the middle of a fight

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by quixoteprog

[Ukase]

The key element that is missing prior to 90% of all team wipes is communication. This game is not hard. The challenges stem from the players themselves. A level 16 tank with 4 travel powers comes to mind. A player that turns left while everyone else goes right. 

It's never really quite clear to me why teams split when it's not a speed effort.  Someone got to the intersection first and chose a path. I suppose some have Reveal, others don't. Some are paying attention, others aren't. Ultimately, it's the people that make things harder than they have to be.  Without these people, the game would be so simple, nobody would play. It would be dull. 

Embrace the suck of the PUG. It is through PUGs that friendships are made, sometimes through a baptism of fire, wasted time and debt. Of course, it is also through PUGs that we learn that some players are so inept that they can't even handle a blaster using kb to mitigate damage they would take if they couldn't use kb. See - if you're melee and you just read that, your heart started to race, because you hate players that use kb! (well, only some of you hate it, others just find it annoying/inconvenient)  Still, it's our ability to cope with these challenges that make the game more interesting. The other perspective suggests the player with the kb adapt and not use the kb, either through procs or different tactics.  

People are different. Expect these kind of issues if your leader isn't communicating while the team is forming. It's not a guarantee that things will go roughly if they don't type out direction, but when expectations are laid out prior, most people can temper their own expectations and have more fun.  AND don't be afraid to drop from a tf before it starts if you don't feel right. But don't you dare drop once it starts. That's just bad form. I make notes on people who do this and refuse to team with them or let them participate in the stuff I lead. 

 

[Shred Monkey]

It's not always the player who runs ahead who is to blame, though.  There are a lot of powers that work much better on clean/well grouped spawn.  If a player runs ahead to set up the next group with one of those powers, that's a good thing as long as the team is right on their tail.  However, some tanks think they're the only ones allowed to start a fight and will even choose to delay, or go a different direction on purpose when they see someone else run ahead.   

 

It doesn't sound like that's what was happening with the OP, but in a game where there's so much overlap in roles between ATs it can be expected that not every team will follow the same, fixed strategy into every battle.

[goatriderman]

Sometimes I "sabotage" things just because it's more fun.  It's more fun trying to survive instead of autocompleting a task with no effort.  I never try to make the team wipe but I do try to increase the pace by increasing the difficulty (aggroing more) which occasionally goes badly.  Without people like me healers would have nothing to do. 

[quixoteprog]

13 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Embrace the suck of the PUG.

Indeed, I believe that was Pinny the Younger who said this first, if I'm not mistaken.

 

As for dropping from a TF, I would say it is bad form, but not so much after the TF begins as after the team leader lays out the rules. If the leader waits until the second of third mission to explain his expectations beforehand then he has only himself to blame if people drop then.

 

Obviously, that is a PUG rule. If you know everyone in the team and have run several TFs with them prior, then it is reasonable to expect consistent behavior.

[Abraxus]

56 minutes ago, quixoteprog said:

Indeed, I believe that was Pinny the Younger who said this first, if I'm not mistaken.

 

As for dropping from a TF, I would say it is bad form, but not so much after the TF begins as after the team leader lays out the rules. If the leader waits until the second of third mission to explain his expectations beforehand then he has only himself to blame if people drop then.

 

Obviously, that is a PUG rule. If you know everyone in the team and have run several TFs with them prior, then it is reasonable to expect consistent behavior.

👆This!

 

Setting expectations is important in just about any situation where you interact with other people (regardless of whether that is in-person, or virtually).  If you don't, you always run the risk of folks setting their own, and on a team of 8, those can span the gamut of possibilities, and things end up a mess.  If you find yourself running a team, using the time while forming the team, and awaiting everyone's arrival, a few quick sentences just to get everyone on the same page is always time well spent. 

If the team is going to be going on for hours, and in the case of mission teams where folks drop, and new ones take their place, it is best to reiterate for the benefit of the new folks.  Putting the verbiage in your copy clipboard, and pasting it in when bringing new folks in is also a good investment of time.  Makes for a much better teaming experience overall.  At least that has been my experience.

[Shred Monkey]

I would like to add, that even though i build my toons to not rely on a tank for survival, nothing makes me happier then when we've finished off one spawn, I turn to find the tank took the initiative to run ahead early and suck the entire next spawn into a neat little pile.

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, quixoteprog said:

As for dropping from a TF, I would say it is bad form, but not so much after the TF begins as after the team leader lays out the rules. If the leader waits until the second of third mission to explain his expectations beforehand then he has only himself to blame if people drop then.

Agreed fully here. Especially for a longer Task Force. If a team leader gives expectations after the fact on an ITF or Apex, there is a good chance I'll just roll with it since those are generally very quick. If two missions into a Synapse the leader does something like say every mission is a defeat all, then chances are I'm gonna drop as that sounds terrible to me.

[Chuckers]

19 hours ago, Scientist said:

I actually had someone quit a Market Crash TF a couple of months ago about 15 minutes in because "it wasn't challenging enough".  If you have particular expectations for how a TF is going to go (speed, kill all, etc.) they should be communicated, and that goes for a team member as well, not just the leader.  It is perfectly fine to want to run your TF on +4/x8, or run it slow and read all the dialogue, or stealth everything, but ask before you start so you end up with a whole team who wants to do it that way.  Unlike radios or even a mission arc, you can't get replacement members on a TF.  

 

 

I always assume, and this might be a problem but I haven't found it yet, that if nothing is said when LFG-ing or forming a TF, then the TF will be a normal, run of the mill, TF. No speed run, 4x8, nothing special - except stealthing stealthable missions. Like you said, it's up the leader to promote the type of TF they're running and members to meet those expectations or speak up. 

 

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

The key element that is missing prior to 90% of all team wipes is communication. This game is not hard. The challenges stem from the players themselves. A level 16 tank with 4 travel powers comes to mind. A player that turns left while everyone else goes right. 

It's never really quite clear to me why teams split when it's not a speed effort.  Someone got to the intersection first and chose a path. I suppose some have Reveal, others don't. Some are paying attention, others aren't. Ultimately, it's the people that make things harder than they have to be.  Without these people, the game would be so simple, nobody would play. It would be dull. 

Embrace the suck of the PUG. It is through PUGs that friendships are made, sometimes through a baptism of fire, wasted time and debt. Of course, it is also through PUGs that we learn that some players are so inept that they can't even handle a blaster using kb to mitigate damage they would take if they couldn't use kb. See - if you're melee and you just read that, your heart started to race, because you hate players that use kb! (well, only some of you hate it, others just find it annoying/inconvenient)  Still, it's our ability to cope with these challenges that make the game more interesting. The other perspective suggests the player with the kb adapt and not use the kb, either through procs or different tactics.  

People are different. Expect these kind of issues if your leader isn't communicating while the team is forming. It's not a guarantee that things will go roughly if they don't type out direction, but when expectations are laid out prior, most people can temper their own expectations and have more fun.  AND don't be afraid to drop from a tf before it starts if you don't feel right. But don't you dare drop once it starts. That's just bad form. I make notes on people who do this and refuse to team with them or let them participate in the stuff I lead. 

 

 

To address a couple of things brought up:

 

I've deliberately wandered off into a different direction in a few cases - usually defeat alls - when I'm running my IO'd out Brute and the rest of the team can handle the spawns without me. Let's face it, running a Citadel at even con isn't all that hard, and splitting up just reduces the amount of time that it takes to clear the base(s), whether your attempting a speedrun or not. I also am one of those people that will run into the next spawn once the previous group is down to mop-up duty, although I'll hang around for the bosses and/or try to pull them along with me to the next spawn if I'm supposed to be the primary tank. And yes, I'm also well aware that there is an aggro cap, and I try to grab spillover from tanks that aren't, and try to pull multiple x8 spawns together - but I also expect characters to be able to handle a minion or two while I'm attacking the bosses and Lts to keep them on me.

 

As for knockback... my rule is pretty simple: if I'm a melee and you knock something that's attacking me away, then I expect you to take care of it (and yourself). If I knock something away from you, I expect myself to take care of it. 

 

7 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Agreed fully here. Especially for a longer Task Force. If a team leader gives expectations after the fact on an ITF or Apex, there is a good chance I'll just roll with it since those are generally very quick. If two missions into a Synapse the leader does something like say every mission is a defeat all, then chances are I'm gonna drop as that sounds terrible to me.

Yeah, but it's a Synapse - that's not much of an exaggeration. And even the ones that start off wanting to kill everything on every map usually say "yes" when I ask if I can stealth to the objectives once you get to the part that you can stealth.

 

[Ukase]

37 minutes ago, siolfir said:

 

To address a couple of things brought up:

 

I've deliberately wandered off into a different direction in a few cases - usually defeat alls - when I'm running my IO'd out Brute and the rest of the team can handle the spawns without me. Let's face it, running a Citadel at even con isn't all that hard, and splitting up just reduces the amount of time that it takes to clear the base(s), whether your attempting a speedrun or not. I also am one of those people that will run into the next spawn once the previous group is down to mop-up duty, although I'll hang around for the bosses and/or try to pull them along with me to the next spawn if I'm supposed to be the primary tank. And yes, I'm also well aware that there is an aggro cap, and I try to grab spillover from tanks that aren't, and try to pull multiple x8 spawns together - but I also expect characters to be able to handle a minion or two while I'm attacking the bosses and Lts to keep them on me.

 

As for knockback... my rule is pretty simple: if I'm a melee and you knock something that's attacking me away, then I expect you to take care of it (and yourself). If I knock something away from you, I expect myself to take care of it. 

 

Yeah, but it's a Synapse - that's not much of an exaggeration. And even the ones that start off wanting to kill everything on every map usually say "yes" when I ask if I can stealth to the objectives once you get to the part that you can stealth.

 

I think you and I are on pretty much the same page. I have zero issues with everyone going off in their own direction if they can handles themselves. This is because I know ALL of my toons, even down to my emp defender, can handle themselves solo. 

In many ways, I think the problem that a lot of people have with this wandering off solo is they need your ability to manage aggro where they are. Not everyone can handle themselves with a minion or two. 

I listen on discord to some folks while we play, and I cannot fathom how they managed to level a character up. They seem helpless and clueless about the simplest of things. I just remind myself that a dozen years ago, I was a guy who had no idea what to slot. I thought that the "enhancements allowed" meant I was supposed to put one of each of those enhancements in the power. So every power got as many slots as needed to slot every allowed type of enhancement. While the savvy folks were slotting 1 acc, 4 damage, 2 recharge or similar, I was slotting 1 acc, 1 dam, 1 end redux, 1 rech, 1 slow, 1 range. 

Then suddenly, about level 26, I have this new power that takes 8 different kinds of enhancements, but I could only fit 6 slots. I thought the game was broken! So, I try not to judge ignorance harshly. 

Two things lead to disappointment in life: unrealistic expectations and/or unrealized expectations. Let's just do our best to define those before things start. 

 

[MunkiLord]

26 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I listen on discord to some folks while we play, and I cannot fathom how they managed to level a character up. They seem helpless and clueless about the simplest of things. I just remind myself that a dozen years ago, I was a guy who had no idea what to slot. I thought that the "enhancements allowed" meant I was supposed to put one of each of those enhancements in the power. So every power got as many slots as needed to slot every allowed type of enhancement. While the savvy folks were slotting 1 acc, 4 damage, 2 recharge or similar, I was slotting 1 acc, 1 dam, 1 end redux, 1 rech, 1 slow, 1 range. 

Then suddenly, about level 26, I have this new power that takes 8 different kinds of enhancements, but I could only fit 6 slots. I thought the game was broken! So, I try not to judge ignorance harshly.

 

I love this! Good story. I don't know how I did it, but my poor understanding of the game led to my Rad/Rad Defender to spend 32-41 in debt the entire time. This was pre-ED, pre debt nerf, all that. I was terrible.

[Coyotedancer]

Everybody has to start somewhere, and a lot of time as passed.

There are bound to be a lot of folks in-game who are brand new, or rusty, or VERY unpracticed or otherwise not-exactly-up-on-everything.

 

I think communication is the real key in this situation... Leaders need to set expectations and maybe take some time to explain how they want a run to go. Don't assume your team are just automatically all going to be on the same page. Near the end of the Live days, for instance, a lot of speedrunning practices had begun to creep into even "regular" TF play on the servers that I played on... so people who primarily remember those days, or who only ever knew the speedster's way of doing things, just might not realize that what they're doing ISN'T the traditional, low-key way to go about it. To them, that *is* just the usual way the TF was done.

 

So, talk to your team. Odds are good MOST people will listen if you're reasonable about it. 

If they don't? That's when it's time to get grouchy. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Coyotedancer