Blaster Secondaries: Why?

[DocRadio]

On 10/26/2019 at 3:17 AM, Procellus said:

I can't believe that all these players that are smarterer and betterer than me keep missing my point.

 

What are the point of Blasters and do their Secondaries help them to fulfill that purpose?

 

It wasn't strictly about the melee attacks. It never was. It was about whether or not Blaster Secondaries helped them fulfill their primary purpose. Melee attacks just seem to take a greater percentage of the available powers in any given set.

 

What are Blasters? "AoE death dealing specialists" I hear. Great! Then why are a supermajority of the the melee attacks single target? Does that make sense for an AoE damage dealer?

 

"Burst damage!" you could reply and I think this is the strongest argument. But I would point out that, from the secondaries, only Build Up really does that and does it every 90 seconds without recharge enhancement and it is a 10 second duration. Great! Sounds bursty! But that's only one power. But the fact that in this thread there are multiple ideas about what the AT is supposed to be, I think, shows that the secondaries are a mess theme-wise and do not add to a cohesive whole.

 

Another thing is that I misspoke. I said "disadvantaged" when I should have said "less advantaged." For a lot of (most?) mobs keeping them at range halves their number of attacks. For an AT with little defense de facto halving the amount of thing being thrown our was is advantageous. If I were to draw a diagram like the one below and ask people, "In which scenario is the Blaster more advantaged?"

 

😀: Blaster

🤬: Bad guy

 

😀 --------------->🤬 or 😀🤬

 

Most people would say the former. That is my point.

 

Actually blasters are just damage. Ranged, Melee, AoE, PBAOE, Ranged AOE, Single Target, Cones... You name it. They are the jack of all damage. And there's way too much diversity in the primaries to try and shoe horn them into an AoE damage role. 

[DocRadio]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

The sustains are some of the best "defensive" powers available on a single power basis. 

 

The problem is perhaps that blasters only get that power and usually no other defensive powers (a couple sets have 2) 

 

Of course that's more than support sets typically get.

You're forgetting holds, stuns, imobiles, sleeps, slows, drains and area denial. Dropping caltrops on a spawn can be as effective as any defensive power as an example. I think that some secondary sets could use a few tweaks, but I'm guessing that maybe you don't have enough experience using them to understand how useful they can actually be. And yeah they can synergize with primaries quite nicely too. You just have to give it a little thought and be creative in your build choices.

Edited October 28, 2019 by DocRadio

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, DocRadio said:

You're forgetting holds, stuns, imobiles, sleeps, slows, drains and area denial. Dropping caltrops on a spawn can be as effective as any defensive set as an example. Then there's kiting. I think that some secondary sets could use a few tweaks, but I'm starting to think that maybe you don't have enough experience using them to understand how useful they can actually be.

Oh definitely, Supports also get debuffs and so on.  I was just referring to the no defensive powers portion.  

 

[DocRadio]

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Zzzzz

 

 

Me.... I prefer to be flexible. Against Crey, Nemesis, Council, Rikti… I go in guns blazing trying to murder any and everything in my path as quickly as possible. If you're talking Malta or Carnies.... then hell yeah I pick off the problematic mobs first.

[DocRadio]

23 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Oh definitely, Supports also get debuffs and so on.  I was just referring to the no defensive powers portion.  

 

I see those things as active or soft defense. Anything that reduces or mitigates incoming damage is defense. (In my estimation... lots of people don't see it that way.) That includes debuffing attack rate or even the amount of time It takes a target to stand back up after I bounce him with a knockdown. I had a limited view of blasters for a long time. My first being a Fire/Fire/Flame Mastery blaster that I took to 50 way back in the day. I leveled in constant debt and frustration. I absolutely reviled the fire secondary, and saw its strength only in the number of skippable powers that could be used on pools. But finally I realized that I'd concentrated too much on my powers, and not enough on the behavior of my targets. How would a spawn react to an attack?, Could I mow them down before I got dusted. What inspires were effective, how to use line of sight, How to benefit from powers that made mobs run away or stay at distance. Which mobs did the most damage in Melee range and which melee attacks in my arsenal were worth getting up close and personal to use. Playing blasters of any build isn't super difficult, but you really have to do your homework and be ready to learn from your face plants.

Edited October 28, 2019 by DocRadio

[Omega-202]

It really seems like RialVestro hasn't actually played a competently built Blaster.  All of what's being argued is wrong and sounds like someone who only experienced Blasters back in i5.

 

[DocRadio]

3 hours ago, RialVestro said:

Not really an assumption. I mentioned in an earlier post we're talking strickly about Primary/Secondary. There is in fact no Defense powers anywhere in there. You might get some defense from pools and such but that's not relevant to the discussion.

Not at all true.

Some sustains have defense baked right in. Absorbs, heals and regens too.

Edited October 28, 2019 by DocRadio

[DocRadio]

16 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

It really seems like RialVestro hasn't actually played a competently built Blaster.  All of what's being argued is wrong and sounds like someone who only experienced Blasters back in i5.

 

Looks that way. Things have changed for blasters. I honestly don't feel as squishy as I used to back in the day when I play my blasters. Don't get me wrong... I'm still packing them breakfrees like a crack fiend keeps his pipe close but I'm not using them as often. Heck I find myself doing missions and only having to resort to my inspire tray for Elite bosses.

[MunkiLord]

21 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

The discussion is about how well Secondary powers support your Primary powers. So how are Pools relevant to that discussion? Your secondary is not a Defensive set, there are no Defensive powers in it, there for you have no Defense.

 

I could just as easily say you have no heals. Of course you can pick up the Medicine pool but when the Discussion is about your Primary/Secondary power sets having Medacine as a pool doesn't change the fact your Primary/Secondary never had any heals in it.

 

Oh and videos can be easily faked. 

 

All it takes to make a video that looks like you soloed the ITF is to make a Demorecord of a TEAM completing the ITF. Demorecord creates a text document of code. You then delete the code associated with the rest of your team leaving only 1 player left. Then when you convert that text document into an actual video you get something that looks like one player soloing the ITF. I used a similar method above to replace Admiral Shark and all of his pets with Captain Mako.

I'll ask directly, do you think the video(or videos) provided have been faked? Is that your response to proof that soloing Rom and his nictus can be done?

Edited October 28, 2019 by MunkiLord

[HelBlaiz]

Claiming people are faking their videos is pretty audacious. It shouldn't be done lightly.

 

On the topic at hand, I agree with everyone saying blaster secondaries are fine. I made a fire blaster last night, which was also my first character and main years ago. He's awesome fun and aim+BU into Blaze+Fire Sword instantly deletes minions, good for problematic mooks. Will be easier with Blazing Bolt later I'm sure, but more than functional.

[Doomrider]

13 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

I never even saw any videos being posted in the first place but if I did that would be my assumption yes.

 

The ITF was designed to be a challenge for TEAMS... and it is in fact a challenge for TEAMS. If any single player could do it then it wouldn't be a challenge for a team to do. So the only possibility is that the video must have been faked. When I've seen Tankers struggle to stay alive with a team supporting them there's no way in hell a Blaster did that solo. It's impossible by the game's design. Romulus would have you dead to the ground before you could get a single attack off if you ran into Melee range. If you try and attack from a distance, you might get off a couple attacks but you're still going to die. No single player can ever do enough damage to overcome his regen because he was designed to be a challenge to TEAMS. No matter what you do to him, you will die and barely even dent him.

Oh my sweet summer child... Someone buy Rial a stack of envenomed daggers. 

[HelBlaiz]

To be fair he was designed to be a challenge to a level 35 team equipped with SOs, in i12, six issues before Incarnate.

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, RialVestro said:

I never even saw any videos being posted in the first place but if I did that would be my assumption yes.

 

The ITF was designed to be a challenge for TEAMS... and it is in fact a challenge for TEAMS. If any single player could do it then it wouldn't be a challenge for a team to do. So the only possibility is that the video must have been faked. When I've seen Tankers struggle to stay alive with a team supporting them there's no way in hell a Blaster did that solo. It's impossible by the game's design. Romulus would have you dead to the ground before you could get a single attack off if you ran into Melee range. If you try and attack from a distance, you might get off a couple attacks but you're still going to die. No single player can ever do enough damage to overcome his regen because he was designed to be a challenge to TEAMS. No matter what you do to him, you will die and barely even dent him.

You don't even watch the proof provided, and still claim it is faked, that's ridiculous. And @Damage Dealer did something impressive, so accusing his video of being fake is extreme. What you are saying here has been proven false, you not accepting reality does not change that. It has been soloed many times, by various ATs. You do not know what you are talking, your ignorance is truly astounding and the only reason I keep replying to you is so other people can see it for themselves. Your lack understanding of game mechanics and your arrogance makes you a detriment to new and uneducated players. 

 

 

Edit: A Sentinel soloed the STF and various characters have soloed Giant Monsters. All that faked too?

Edited October 28, 2019 by MunkiLord

[Doomrider]

15 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

You don't even watch the proof provided, and still claim it is faked, that's ridiculous. And @Damage Dealer did something impressive, so accusing his video of being fake is extreme. What you are saying here has been proven false, you not accepting reality does not change that. It has been soloed many times, by various ATs. You do not know what you are talking, your ignorance is truly astounding and the only reason I keep replying to you is so other people can see it for themselves. You lack understanding of game mechanics and your arrogance makes you a detriment to new and uneducated players. 

Tbh what Rial is claiming... I just rolled my eyes at. Anyone can take 2 seconds and search solo ITF on Youtube, there are plenty of videos on this. The ITF has not been a challenge for vet players for a long time, especially on a full team. I have a video of my Fire/Dark troller and @Septipheranon his SS/FA duo'ing a MoITF for the lols and it was a snoozefest. 

Edit: Just so no one thinks my claim is "fake"... here's the link. 😛

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Doomrider

[DarknessEternal]

1 hour ago, RialVestro said:

I never even saw any videos being posted in the first place but if I did that would be my assumption yes.

 

The ITF was designed to be a challenge for TEAMS... and it is in fact a challenge for TEAMS. If any single player could do it then it wouldn't be a challenge for a team to do. So the only possibility is that the video must have been faked. When I've seen Tankers struggle to stay alive with a team supporting them there's no way in hell a Blaster did that solo. It's impossible by the game's design. Romulus would have you dead to the ground before you could get a single attack off if you ran into Melee range. If you try and attack from a distance, you might get off a couple attacks but you're still going to die. No single player can ever do enough damage to overcome his regen because he was designed to be a challenge to TEAMS. No matter what you do to him, you will die and barely even dent him.

Ok, welcome to Ignore.  You have nothing useful to say to the CoX world.

[Tacopotamus]

1 hour ago, RialVestro said:

I never even saw any videos being posted in the first place but if I did that would be my assumption yes.

 

The ITF was designed to be a challenge for TEAMS... and it is in fact a challenge for TEAMS. If any single player could do it then it wouldn't be a challenge for a team to do. So the only possibility is that the video must have been faked. When I've seen Tankers struggle to stay alive with a team supporting them there's no way in hell a Blaster did that solo. It's impossible by the game's design. Romulus would have you dead to the ground before you could get a single attack off if you ran into Melee range. If you try and attack from a distance, you might get off a couple attacks but you're still going to die. No single player can ever do enough damage to overcome his regen because he was designed to be a challenge to TEAMS. No matter what you do to him, you will die and barely even dent him.

You do realize when the game was made...they said one hero was the equivalent of 3 minions?  (Or some low number)

 

We’ve come a LOOOOOOONG ass way from that.  Have you unlocked incarnates?  I’m just boggled that you think this is impossible for any AT period let alone a blaster.

[TheAdjustor]

On 10/24/2019 at 7:49 PM, quixoteprog said:

The conversation is about what makes sense. Melee powers on a blaster don't make sense.

 

I'd argue that, but what would be nice is to see a blaster secondary that is designed for doing damage at range. /Mental comes close but it's not really there

[biostem]

17 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

I'd argue that, but what would be nice is to see a blaster secondary that is designed for doing damage at range. /Mental comes close but it's not really there

Your primary is where the ranged damage comes from.  The secondary is to support or supplement that;  Immobilizes, melee attacks, self buffs, other debuffs or utility powers.  Some like tactical arrow or devices lean more toward the debuff/utility side of things.

[DougGraves]

No AT gets the same powersets twice.  You cannot have a defender that has two buff/debuff sets.  No scrapper that gets two melee attack sets.  No mastermind that gets two pets sets.

 

Blasters have a ranged damage set and a melee damage set.  That's just how AT's work.  It makes sense.  Not being what you want does not mean it does not make sense.

 

If you want ranged damage and buff/debuff you can go corruptor or defender.  It makes no sense to change blaster to function like one of those two ATs.

[Haijinx]

33 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

I'd argue that, but what would be nice is to see a blaster secondary that is designed for doing damage at range. /Mental comes close but it's not really there

Tact Arrow is all ranged 

[Haijinx]

I imagine a Archery/TA would be a pretty decent ITF solo choice since people are bringing that one up.  

 

Since TA is almost a support set.  

[Tahliah]

20 hours ago, Ukase said:

Here's something the OP didn't consider: a badly played blaster will indeed have a glass jaw. But a skilled one will not. And it has less to do with melee attacks, and more to do with the player behind the avatar. What inspirations do they carry? Do they make effective use of binds and/or macros? How much experience do they have with their character and the content? Many of us who played back in the early issues to closing know the content very well. There's just not many surprises. Because we know what to expect, we've learned how to position ourselves for best results. (admittedly, experience has less to do with skill, but it's still a factor) 

I agree with most of what you've said here, @Ukase.  But I do take issue with some of your criteria for a decent blaster: you may count only those who use binds and/or macros as a well-played blaster, but some blasters (like mine) don't rely on binds or macros at all.

 

You also give a lot of credence to experience, and while this is important, it's not a compelling argument.  Of course I can run DFB, Frostfire, [insert any mish/tf/trial] as TEH best.  All I have to do is run them a bazillion times.  That's not a good blaster, that's someone who knows that content well and can therefore (and only therefore) excel.

 

A "good" blaster doesn't need to run memorized content to shine; we are awesome in any content, even that we don't know like the back of our hand and play on autopilot. If all I ever did was [insert "x" trial, raid, whatever], of course I'd excel at it.  A monkey repeating the same content would excel at some point.  "I'm the best at the content I constantly repeat" is not the same as "I'm a good blaster."  Not even close.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Tahliah
edits

[TheAdjustor]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Your primary is where the ranged damage comes from.  The secondary is to support or supplement that;  Immobilizes, melee attacks, self buffs, other debuffs or utility powers.  Some like tactical arrow or devices lean more toward the debuff/utility side of things.

I am kind of curious where that's coming from. Just looking secondary sets there's plenty of ranged damage but there's really nothing for people that want to damage at range. As I said /mental manipulation comes close but it's trying for too much of an even split.

52 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

No AT gets the same powersets twice.  You cannot have a defender that has two buff/debuff sets.  No scrapper that gets two melee attack sets.  No mastermind that gets two pets sets.

 

Blasters have a ranged damage set and a melee damage set.  That's just how AT's work.  It makes sense.  Not being what you want does not mean it does not make sense.

 

If you want ranged damage and buff/debuff you can go corruptor or defender.  It makes no sense to change blaster to function like one of those two ATs.

Actually no blasters don't necessarily have a melee damage set, as things stand I wouldn't call any of the sets melee damage as they all have a degree of survival, buff/debuff and control. 

 

48 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Tact Arrow is all ranged 

Yeah but the damage is not there. If had an equivalent to psionic scream and superior single target damage attack it would be there. 

[MunkiLord]

39 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I imagine a Archery/TA would be a pretty decent ITF solo choice since people are bringing that one up.  

 

Since TA is almost a support set.  

It's certainly doable. I used Arch/Temp instead of /TA and made it to the final battle on a Master attempt. Now I quickly died and then quit since I failed the Master attempt. But I had no doubt I could have finished the ITF. It was slow though, Archery isn't the best ST damage. 

[TheAdjustor]

Just now, MunkiLord said:

It's certainly doable. I used Arch/Temp instead of /TA and made it to the final battle on a Master attempt. Now I quickly died and then quit since I failed the Master attempt. But I had no doubt I could have finished the ITF. It was slow though, Archery isn't the best ST damage. 

I take it by not the best you mean damn well awful.