Learning to Tank without being "That Guy"

[Shred Monkey]

So i've never played a tank, so this is a response as a team member.  

First, keep in mind, we probably don't really *need* you as a tank.... but that's true of the other 7 team members individually as well, so don't worry about it... just know this is a fact.   It means, you can't really mess up that badly, and also you shouldn't take your role too seriously, either.

 

The real question is, what can you do to make this mission go faster.   And this is very simple.  Get to the next spawn first ... and ideally, get there 3-5 seconds before everyone else so the bad guys who move immediately to melee will close in around you.

 

This does 2 things:

1. It brings more badguys into the AoE attacks.  But don't get too focused on this.  Herding to a corner brings everything into a tight spot, but it wastes more time then it saves except in very rare situations.  

2.  You lead the team through the map.  This is the more important role.  You need to be fast.... this probably means leaving the current spawn well before the everything is dead.   If you wait too long, someone is going to get impatient and go to the next spawn ahead of you (because, remember, they can) and likely the team will end up splitting.  Splitting isn't always bad, but in general it is less efficient against sufficiently difficult opponents.

 

[Call Me Awesome]

4 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

So i've never played a tank, so this is a response as a team member.  

First, keep in mind, we probably don't really *need* you as a tank.... but that's true of the other 7 team members individually as well, so don't worry about it... just know this is a fact.   It means, you can't really mess up that badly, and also you shouldn't take your role too seriously, either.

 

The real question is, what can you do to make this mission go faster.   And this is very simple.  Get to the next spawn first ... and ideally, get there 3-5 seconds before everyone else so the bad guys who move immediately to melee will close in around you.

 

This does 2 things:

1. It brings more badguys into the AoE attacks.  But don't get too focused on this.  Herding to a corner brings everything into a tight spot, but it wastes more time then it saves except in very rare situations.  

2.  You lead the team through the map.  This is the more important role.  You need to be fast.... this probably means leaving the current spawn well before the everything is dead.   If you wait too long, someone is going to get impatient and go to the next spawn ahead of you (because, remember, they can) and likely the team will end up splitting.  Splitting isn't always bad, but in general it is less efficient against sufficiently difficult opponents.

 

On a few occasions I've had strong teams split into either pairs or 4 man groups to clear maps faster.  With the right group this can drastically speed up kill all missions, however with a typical PuG it can be a disaster as you get people dropping like flies after they split off and over aggro.

 

For most PuG's it's best to stick together for mutual support and to increase kill speed.  A team that's worked together and knows each other is a different story... my old SG on Live would typically break into pairs of damage & support to rapidly clear.

[Infinitum]

11 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

So i've never played a tank, so this is a response as a team member.  

First, keep in mind, we probably don't really *need* you as a tank.... but that's true of the other 7 team members individually as well, so don't worry about it... just know this is a fact.   It means, you can't really mess up that badly, and also you shouldn't take your role too seriously, either.

pfffft

 

Don't listen to this guy, the heavens part the skys just to smell one of our flatulence.

 

It's true it happens to me on a daily basis.   lol

[Gulbasaur]

I've just started my first tanker that's more than just a "run it though DFB and see what happens" tanker. I got a rad/rad brute, a peacebringer and a fortunata to 50. I have to say, that as a brute I was just scrapperlocking my way through as much as I could - not having the Fury bar has chilled me right out and I'm actually focusing more on what I'm actually doing. The DPS drop-off is considerable, but I'm going to try to proc that out as much as I can. The dwarf-form Peacebringer makes a tanker feel fast-paced and the fortunata can tank pretty much anything, albeit in a chaotic intense way with control effects to make up for the low resistances. 

 

I've gone for dark/dark because I like the control effects. I'm trying to do it in a no respec kinda way an IO out as I go, which is expensive but I feel very unkillable and it's mitigating the obscene endurance cost that dark/dark has. 

 

This whole thread is really useful advice, so I just wanted to kind of say thank you. If ever you see Corona Borealis running out of endurance on your travels because Dark/Dark is a clucking nightmare end-wise, please say hi. 

 

 

[Living Brain 3000]

Not sure if this was covered up above but i can tell you that since HC has come back the art of herding has been lost now this is partly due to power creep of end game and the fact that it is casual and most groups are PUGs. that being said the art of pulling a whole room into a corner and then keeping the aggro has been a bit lost

[Call Me Awesome]

5 hours ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

Not sure if this was covered up above but i can tell you that since HC has come back the art of herding has been lost now this is partly due to power creep of end game and the fact that it is casual and most groups are PUGs. that being said the art of pulling a whole room into a corner and then keeping the aggro has been a bit lost

I've noticed this as well, groups tend to split and then someone away from the group suddenly chews the carpet.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

I think it's a combination of players getting accustomed to managing themselves not paying attention, then getting in over their heads doing something stupid.  There's just too many players who aren't used to, or don't want to mesh with the team and work together.  For probably 90% of the game that works reasonably well, then you get to the content that really needs teamwork and those players either disrupt things or go off and get their butts handed to them.

 

My old SG had a saying about players like that.  "You can't fix stupid... but you CAN Speed Boost it for entertainment purposes."  It originally came up in the Doc Deliah Faultline rescue mission, someone tossed SB on Doc and suddenly she was GONE attacking a group way over there. 

[Myrmidon]

On 12/17/2019 at 8:52 AM, Shred Monkey said:

Get to the next spawn first ... and ideally, get there 3-5 seconds before everyone else so the bad guys who move immediately to melee will close in around you.

This can definitely come in handy if you happen to have a good bit of Knockback on your team.

[Myrmidon]

8 hours ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

Not sure if this was covered up above but i can tell you that since HC has come back the art of herding has been lost now this is partly due to power creep of end game and the fact that it is casual and most groups are PUGs. that being said the art of pulling a whole room into a corner and then keeping the aggro has been a bit lost

As someone that tends to PUG a lot on my Tankers (and Brutes), I have to say that the current rush to kill mentality does sharpen ones tanking skills in both building and play.😁

[VV]

9 hours ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

Not sure if this was covered up above but i can tell you that since HC has come back the art of herding has been lost now this is partly due to power creep of end game and the fact that it is casual and most groups are PUGs. that being said the art of pulling a whole room into a corner and then keeping the aggro has been a bit lost

The entire art of teaming has been lost. Both due to power creep and due to the soloist red-side ATs being combined in with the team-focused blue-side.

 

Also, old-school herding was already outdated way before close. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by VV

[Gulbasaur]

44 minutes ago, VV said:

The entire art of teaming has been lost. Both due to power creep and due to the soloist red-side ATs being combined in with the team-focused blue-side.

 

Also, old-school herding was already outdated way before close. 

There is definitely a before and after, isn't there. Hero ATs are build for team play and villain ATs are built to solo. I remember playing the CoV beta and noticing how different team play felt. 

 

I've got my tanker up to L48 and I tend to lead groups, calling my pulls and telling teammates where I'm going. As long as you're always doing stuff with some challenge, but in the "everyone can nuke and has 45% defence" world of end-game play, it kind of falls away. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

As someone that tends to PUG a lot on my Tankers (and Brutes), I have to say that the current rush to kill mentality does sharpen ones tanking skills in both building and play.😁

I'm not waiting around for people to pull stuff, lol

 

I have bad guys to kill

Er set on fire

Er warm and arrest 

 

 

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I'm not waiting around for people to pull stuff, lol

 

I have bad guys to kill

Er set on fire

Er warm and arrest 

 

 

 I find that it’s much easier to simply adapt to the team. Whether the mobs are clumped up or scattered, I’ll get that aggro.

[Call Me Awesome]

On 1/3/2020 at 12:03 AM, Myrmidon said:

 I find that it’s much easier to simply adapt to the team. Whether the mobs are clumped up or scattered, I’ll get that aggro.

Frankly unless you're playing with a team used to playing together there's not a lot of choice but to adapt to the team.  Far too many of them may have heard of the word "strategy" but can't see that it applies to them.

[Sir Myshkin]

On 1/2/2020 at 11:03 PM, Myrmidon said:

 I find that it’s much easier to simply adapt to the team.

 

[gurugeorge]

1.  Be faster than the controllers.

[Scientist]

On 11/4/2019 at 4:31 PM, Papaschtroumpf said:

>nothing is as good at it as a Tanker

What makes a tanker better? I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely trying to understand what my Tanker can do or bring that surpasses other ATs.

Taunting to grab aggro back form a teammate in trouble is the best I can comes up with. And possibly having some much HP that tanking AVs is simpler than on say a corruptor.

One thing a Tank really excels at is moving a specific mob, or spawn, to where you want them.  Brutes and Scrappers with Taunt auras can do that to some extent, but Tanker Taunt has, as far as I know, the only "-range" power in the game.  Thus even mobs who would normally want to stay at range, which includes a lot of annoying Praetorian ones, have to get closer to attack you, entering the team's debuffs and AoEs.  

 

Other than that, lots of good advice here, one thing I like to do when a spawn is down to maybe a boss and I'm about to run off to the next is hit that boss with a final Taunt.  That makes sure they don't turn and clobber some squishy for long enough that the team will probably finish them off, and I don't really need Taunt immediately when I start herding a new spawn, I'm relying on AoEs/aura, so it has plenty of time to recharge.  

 

Also, there are certain mobs you may want to learn about because they are a threat even to tanks.  Malta sappers are among them, you may specifically NOT want to taunt those, frankly if they shoot the blaster and drain their End, it just slows things down slightly since they don't do much damage, if you get drained and lose your toggles with a whole spawn beating on you and mezzing you, it could get bad.  Dark Ring Mistresses, Carnie bosses, are also bad, they have really nasty debuffs, those along with some Circle of Thorns mobs can completely remove your defense and/or tohit, so abilities that have to hit enemies to heal you, for example, may be useless.  I suggest monitoring your Combat Attributes to watch for those kinds of things, no point firing off the Dark Heal if its going to whiff.  

[StrykerGaming]

On 10/31/2019 at 6:40 AM, MTeague said:

So, I've tanked in other MMO's. Specifically, Warcraft.  Expectations were kinda sky-high there. 

 

Tanks were expected

• to know every mechanic of every boss in every raid
• to know the maps of every instance, small group or raid
• to have full court vision at all times to pickup adds
• to properly manage every cooldown so as to not faceplant and not be the tank with the spiky healthbar.
• to know and mark killzones and priority mobs to kill.

 

Clearly, quite a bit of this does not and cannot be expected to carry over into City of Heroes.  It's a far more casual game, and very little even rises to the content of "Progression Grinding Endgame Encounters".  I know of nothing in the CoH that can consistently wipe an experienced premade group for 3 hours a night for 2 weeks straight while they learn how to get their execution down perfectly.  (And this is a GOOD THING, I am SO DONE with the WoW treadmill).

 

But... I find myself massively gunshy at joining any group with my Tanker. 

I don't want to be complete Faily McFailtank by not even being AWARE of what groups are expecting from me in this game. 

 

So.... what are fair expectations of a CoX Tanker, in your view?

 

=====

By G'Quan, I can't recall the last time I was in a fight like that! No moral ambiguity, no hopeless battle against ancient and overwhelming forces! They were the bad guys, as you say, and we were the good guys! And they made a very satisfying thump! when they hit the floor.

    - Citizen G'Kar, Babylon 5, Season 3, *A Late Delivery From Avalon*

CoH was my very first MMO. I started out tanking in this game because I loved the idea behind it. When the doors closed I was already playing SWTOR. Here I learned the nuances of tanking that made my job tanking even better. I learned these nuances from one of the top rated tankers in that game, Gilgamesh. Tanking, no matter what game it is, is nearly universally the same. Tank's number one job: protect the team. This is done via a tank's ability to maintain aggro. Having great situation awareness. Being able to fight while watching out for the rest of team. Taunting every opportunity or when the situation calls for it. Keeping your threat high at all times. Most importantly, being able to respond to the call for help when someone's alpha calls attention to themselves.

 

If you were able to do what you listed as expectations of a tank in WoW, you should not have any issue tanking in this game. Remembering your primary purpose in protecting the team is grabbing and holding aggro. Each attack of a tank taunts everything alive around you. Your AoE's are major taunting inducing madness for the enemy. Abuse it as often as you can. Abuse your taunt power quite often. Make it part of your rotation. Bind your taunt via a macro to 'T.' Make it a rotating taunt too so you can enjoy spouting out some really abusive degrading insults! It's great for entertainment value too. Remember, tanking is one of the most rewarding aspects of doing so. You're not flashy and you don't do mega damage. What you accomplish is keeping your team alive while you are the mega damage sponge allowing them to be flashing and do mega damage.

 

Tanking, in my opinion, is an art form that requires a player to be the ultimate team player. It requires a level of selflessness. Not many aspire to that level to tank as required.

 

If you were a good tank in WoW you'll be a good tank in this game. Because it is a new game to tank in, does not mean you have to throw out what you've learned to tank and start over. Take what you've learned and apply it here. Adjust what needs to be adjusted and grow with the game. New game, new improvements on how, what, and why you tank. Doing this is the sign of a good player and an exceptional tanker. Just do what you know how to do and the rest will fall into place.

 

Judge yourself on your own merits and abilities not by the expectations of others. Your own expectations have to be fulfilled and when you do that, you've done well. When the mission is completed, no one died and/or the team did not wipe, you know you've done your job right and that is the ultimate satisfaction your are rewarded with!

[Scientist]

One other comment, especially at low levels it can be easy to drain your end bar if you are throwing out a lot of attacks.  Don't feel you need to do this, nobody ever booted a tank from a team because they didn't do enough dps.  They would MUCH rather not have you run out of end, detoggle, and faceplant, spreading the remaining aggro evenly among the blaster, to quote another excellent guide.  That is one reason I think TW can work for a tank without needing to micromanage it, I don't care that much if I have Momentum for 1 attack or 3, I'm doing my job even if I break the chain to throw out a Taunt, or fire off an aggro PbAoE.  

[Call Me Awesome]

1 hour ago, Scientist said:

One other comment, especially at low levels it can be easy to drain your end bar if you are throwing out a lot of attacks.  Don't feel you need to do this, nobody ever booted a tank from a team because they didn't do enough dps.  They would MUCH rather not have you run out of end, detoggle, and faceplant, spreading the remaining aggro evenly among the blaster, to quote another excellent guide.  That is one reason I think TW can work for a tank without needing to micromanage it, I don't care that much if I have Momentum for 1 attack or 3, I'm doing my job even if I break the chain to throw out a Taunt, or fire off an aggro PbAoE.  

Excellent point, when I started tanking in Issue 3 endurance was a MAJOR problem for low level characters... and I had an Inv/Stone which isn't a low endurance combo.  I had to strictly ration my attacks all the way to 50, so I concentrated on defense and aggro management when my end was low and tossed out attacks as I had the end to fire them without (hopefully, I did screw this up a few times) crashing my toggles.

[Display Name]

On 11/2/2019 at 3:24 PM, Papaschtroumpf said:

OK, I'm going to disagree about that. Partly.

Squishies need someone to soak the alpha, although with IOs and incarnates, that's not as needed as it may have been in the past.

My warsahde can soak the alpha, my two corruptors can soak the alpha, my brute can soak the alpha, my scrapper can soak the alpha. My controller can't soak the alpha because the alpha never comes due to crowd control. All those character can solo +4x8 without breaking a sweat except for the occasional special mob (Psi, CC resistance, etc... each AT has one or two enemies that it must work a little harder at)

 

I soak the alpha all the time on group, but I never think of it as Tanking. The one thing I expect a tank to do that none of those characters do well is to hold aggro even when the blaster is hurting them, or make sure adds come to me and ignore the rest of the group. In a word, it's all about Taunt. Not only taunting auras, but a way to grab aggro and supersede any other player that might be getting aggro, often without wanting it. I was running a on a MAria Jenkins +4x8 team last night and my corruptor would jump in, soak the alpha, double-nuke and generally play no differently than when I'm solo. But when another player overextended themselves, maybe aggroed a second group, etc..., I usually couldn't save them and so wished I had taunt on my corruptor  (I never tried Provoke but I hear it;s not great). Later in the evening a tank joined the group. I could still jump in ahead of the tank if I wanted and soak alpha and nuke, but the second the tank caught up, all enemies has eyes on him.

 

Now if you can't soak up the alpha, you can't tank. if you call it on you, you need to be able to take it.

 

 

What is "soak up the alpha?"

[EmmySky]

4 hours ago, Display Name said:

 

What is "soak up the alpha?"

The alpha is the initial strike where you get a group of baddies attacking all at once.  Since its usually synchronized, the damage really adds up and requires a toon with either higher HP, higher def, higher res or quick regeneration to 'soak' it, to take the fast incoming damage without dying.  This is, in lower levels, most traditionally a tank, as they have a giant bag of HP and lots of def and res.  With higher levels or creative slotting, this can be performed by almost any AT.

Edited March 18, 2020 by EmmySky

[VV]

On 2/22/2020 at 12:35 AM, gurugeorge said:

1.  Be faster than the controllers.

My 2 mains are a tanker and a controller, and I can tell you this is 1000% true. Blasters and other stuff often think they can lead out, and sometimes they can, but it really tends to be the Controllers that push hard.

 

On 3/2/2020 at 2:59 PM, Scientist said:

One thing a Tank really excels at is moving a specific mob, or spawn, to where you want them.  Brutes and Scrappers with Taunt auras can do that to some extent, but Tanker Taunt has, as far as I know, the only "-range" power in the game.  Thus even mobs who would normally want to stay at range, which includes a lot of annoying Praetorian ones, have to get closer to attack you, entering the team's debuffs and AoEs.  

This is one of the best points of this thread. Lots of things can "take the alpha", lots of things can mitigate damage. But, very few can do both while actually moving a mob at the same time. Gathering things into a tight cluster is really where tanks excel. (Of course there are a few exceptions, no need to point that out, we are talking in general.) And that is generally what I focus on when tanking.

 

As I've mentioned, my favorite thing is those big rooms with all the groups standing around. My goal is to get that room cleared without having the team move at all. I run around pulling the other mobs into the already set location DoTs and debuffs. Timed just right, you can keep the mayhem going without overwhelming the team. When practicing "not that guy" tanking, this is a good test.

 

On 1/2/2020 at 4:32 PM, Gulbasaur said:

I've got my tanker up to L48 and I tend to lead groups, calling my pulls and telling teammates where I'm going.

Just don't do this. This is exactly a "that guy" activity.

 

The problem with most "that guy" (TG) tankers is that they do not realize that any time a blaster (or anyone else) is not mashing attack buttons, or buff/debuff, is a waste of time. Movement is a waste of time. Waiting for a "pull" is a HUGE waste of time. Faceplanting is a big waste of time. Looking for the next mob is a waste of time. Healing is even a waste of time. The goal of a NTG (not that guy) tankers is to minimize the need for any of those. Ideally, the mission should proceed from fight to fight without any pause. That means that as soon as the team arrives at a new group, there should be no need to hesitate. It should already be grouped and focused on the tanker and the team can light in even as they are ending their movement. Of course, nobody is perfect, but that is the ideal, that is the goal you are trying to reach.

 

Advanced tanking is doing things like dealing with knockback happy teams, or teams that tend to split up, or overpulls. Keeping the team alive and moving when other people make mistakes is what you learn after you've mastered the above.

[Gulbasaur]

12 hours ago, VV said:

Waiting for a "pull" is a HUGE waste of time.

90% of the time yes, but if you have three tightly clustered groups of enemies and you're not all end-game kitted out it's just common sense to say "pulling the middle group back" or whatever. Not everything in the game is played with full sets and incarnates. 

 

I do get what you're saying, and it's not like I make every group wait for every mob - mostly I just run in - but if you're in a situation where a wipe could happen then it makes sense to avoid it by communicating.

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Sir Myshkin]

Quote

"...but if you have three tightly clustered groups of enemies and you're not all end-game kitted out it's just common sense to say "pulling the middle group back" or whatever. Not everything in the game is played with full sets and incarnates." --Gulbasaur*

What's interesting about this case is that, in some circumstances, you only need ONE capable player to tackle that entire scenario. A scenario that once required attentive action planning that can now be handled by a single Blaster. Now that I'm getting more of the Incarnates fleshed out on my current project, things have progressed to the point where I see a room with multiple spawns packed together and my only thought is "Oooh Yeaah." BU+Blizzard+Atom Smasher on the first spawn, Pyronic Judgement on the second, and then move into the third with Ice Storm and another Atom Smasher, and anything that didn't insta-wipe from the first two (usually just a couple of Bosses) chase after me; then it just becomes a quick game of whack-a-mole.

 

I have definitely--mind unintentionally--altered the perspective of a couple of Tankers in the last two weeks about crowd control, and their purpose on the team. When I nuke out a spawn, and am whittling away a Boss in short order of the remnants, and they start for the next spawn and I Judgement it into non-existence. More than once I've watched a player stop and just go "Well then..."

 

And I feel a little bad about it, seeing it from their perspective. The truth of the matter is that I'm not invalidating their existence, in fact I'm absolutely abusing their existence on the fact that just walking around and punching things taunts and keeps enemies focused on them, and not me. The fact that there's builds out there (especially once Incarnates get involved) that are walking Nuclear Bombs on tap, it can totally feel like a Tanker lacks purpose.

 

So to those Tanks I say: Just keep punching, please, it does more than it may seem. And if I land in the middle of a spawn looking drugged and wobblin' about the place, punch harder!

 

*I did a cut quote with removed notification prompt since I wasn't speaking to you (Gulbasaur) directly, but to the scenario itself.

[Call Me Awesome]

3 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

What's interesting about this case is that, in some circumstances, you only need ONE capable player to tackle that entire scenario. A scenario that once required attentive action planning that can now be handled by a single Blaster. Now that I'm getting more of the Incarnates fleshed out on my current project, things have progressed to the point where I see a room with multiple spawns packed together and my only thought is "Oooh Yeaah." BU+Blizzard+Atom Smasher on the first spawn, Pyronic Judgement on the second, and then move into the third with Ice Storm and another Atom Smasher, and anything that didn't insta-wipe from the first two (usually just a couple of Bosses) chase after me; then it just becomes a quick game of whack-a-mole.

 

I have definitely--mind unintentionally--altered the perspective of a couple of Tankers in the last two weeks about crowd control, and their purpose on the team. When I nuke out a spawn, and am whittling away a Boss in short order of the remnants, and they start for the next spawn and I Judgement it into non-existence. More than once I've watched a player stop and just go "Well then..."

 

And I feel a little bad about it, seeing it from their perspective. The truth of the matter is that I'm not invalidating their existence, in fact I'm absolutely abusing their existence on the fact that just walking around and punching things taunts and keeps enemies focused on them, and not me. The fact that there's builds out there (especially once Incarnates get involved) that are walking Nuclear Bombs on tap, it can totally feel like a Tanker lacks purpose.

 

So to those Tanks I say: Just keep punching, please, it does more than it may seem. And if I land in the middle of a spawn looking drugged and wobblin' about the place, punch harder!

 

*I did a cut quote with removed notification prompt since I wasn't speaking to you (Gulbasaur) directly, but to the scenario itself.

A high end Blaster build can be incredibly effective; my Fire/EM/Fire Blaster is built to soft cap Ranged defense and to have 97% To Hit (Still has the old fast snipe build).  I CAN pull off similar stunts although if the RNG hates me I can also go down quickly.  What I can't do is position mobs or monopolize aggro like a Tanker can, nor can I survive a run of bad luck with the Random Number Generator.

 

Good tankers are always a valued member of any team, bad tankers are of limited usefulness.