So is Energy just an anathema to good players?

[Possibly]

I was thinking of having a corruptor that's something like energy/empathy. The concept is a robot controlled by a hyper intelligent baby panda. It's a terrible idea.

 

Any way to make energy/anything reasonable? I mean I can slot in every power knockback to knockdown, but I thought I read somewhere that's not totally effective..

 

Any thoughts? Or any other suggestions for a 'fun' (in little kid terms) combo replacement?

[SmalltalkJava]

the knockback to knockdown IO will work.   I've never had a problem with them at all.   You can put in some ForceFeedback + recharge IO's also.   Have fun.   Energy should work with any secondary.  Just pick one your interested in and roll with it.     

[Darkir]

Energy is not an anathema to good players, it is just an anathema to min/maxers. When we talk about energy we talk about a knockback tax that requires one extra slot in all the knockback powers for a kb to kd io. There was a thread asking whether this tax was real and discussing how kb can be useful. I think this is wrong, knockback is very annoying on a team of 8 io'd toons at 50 and when leveling up. Especially on a min/max build for a corruptor, those slots are tight. There will always be people who defend kb though, talking about how they save their powers for the right time or the right angle, but it's still going to be faster in my opinion to just be able to use all the powers you have without those concerns.

 

However, it sounds like you don't want to min/max and you want to play a fun concept. I say go for it and slot those kb to kd IOs and have a great time. As @SmalltalkJava has mentioned, you can also slot the FF recharge procs for some extra recharge, this might be especially good with splitting 3 scourging blasts in two powers with ff procs and kb to kd IOs.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Darkir

[Rathulfr]

Much of the concerns about knockback are overblown, and one can completely ameliorate most concerns by simply being a little more thoughtful about it.  As a once and current Energy Blaster, here are my simple rules for managing knockback on Energy Blast:

 

1. Put KB-to-KD IOs in your AoEs.  You don't need KB-to-KD IOs on all of your attacks.  KB is fine on single-target attacks, especially when soloing: it's a form of damage mitigation/control.  KB is a headache on AoE attacks, as it affects you and your team.  Therefore, only your AoE powers really need to the KB2KD IOs: Energy Torrent, Explosive Blast, and Nova.  I usually skip Energy Torrent (I hate cones), so I have the KB2KD IOs in the latter two, only.
2. You knock it, you kill it.  If you do keep KB on your single-target attacks, then you take full responsibility for your KB targets.  Don't KB and run: stay on target until it's down.
3. Pay attention to your targets.  Don't KB buff/debuff anchors.  Don't KB tank/brute targets.  Focus on picking off the stragglers or those menacing the other squishies.
4. Pay attention to your backstop.  What's behind your intended target: a wall or a ledge?  Try to KB into solid objects, or towards the rest of the team.  You don't necessarily have to line up every target like a billiard shot, but do try be aware of what's going on around the targets and elsewhere on the field of battle.
5. Hover over and blast down.  Hover is the Energy Blast-er's best friend.  Get above the fray and KB down into the floor, if possible.  Hover also offers great mobility, a little defense, and a slot for LotG +Recharge and/or Kismet +ToHit.

 

Have fun and happy blasting!

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Rathulfr
Changed the header sentence of item 1. Added color to the header sentence of each item for formatting purposes.

[Darkir]

14 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Much of the concerns about knockback are overblown, and one can completely ameliorate most concerns by simply being a little more thoughtful about it.  As a once and current Energy Blaster, here are my simple rules for managing knockback on Energy Blast:

 

1. You don't need KB-to-KD IOs on all of your attacks.  KB is fine on single-target attacks, especially when soloing: it's a form of damage mitigation/control.  KB is a headache on AoE attacks, as it affects you and your team.  Therefore, only your AoE powers really need to the KB2KD IOs: Energy Torrent, Explosive Blast, and Nova.  I usually skip Energy Torrent (I hate cones), so I have the KB2KD IOs in the latter two, only.
2. You knock it, you kill it.  If you do keep KB on your single-target attacks, then you take full responsibility for your KB targets.  Don't KB and run: stay on target until it's down.
3. Pay attention to your targets.  Don't KB buff/debuff anchors.  Don't KB tank/brute targets.  Focus on picking off the stragglers or those menacing the other squishies.
4. Pay attention to your backstop.  What's behind your intended target: a wall or a ledge?  Try to KB into solid objects, or towards the rest of the team.  You don't necessarily have to line up every target like a billiard shot, but do try be aware of what's going on around the targets and elsewhere on the field of battle.
5. Hover over and blast down.  Hover is the Energy Blast-er's best friend.  Get above the fray and KB down into the floor, if possible.  Hover also offers great mobility, a little defense, and a slot for LotG +Recharge and/or Kismet +ToHit.

Have fun and happy blasting!

 

These rules look great to me and I'd welcome you on any team.

 

I also agree that knockback concerns are overblown. I have had a team wipe due to knockback, but I've also had teams die because of scapperlock, steamrolling brutes, and a defender not knowing how their dark heals work (this one especially makes me sad). It happens, everyone learns from it and we move on. Knockback powers should never be such a problem that you aren't welcome on a team, at most you'll be asked to use them more sparingly. 

 

I fully support the "you knock it, you kill it" rule. Even though I play a lot of ranged toons, if I go in for an inferno, and someone knocks some mobs away before I start it, I am going to sigh and move to the next mob.

[Darkir]

 

3 hours ago, Possibly said:

I was thinking of having a corruptor that's something like energy/empathy. The concept is a robot controlled by a hyper intelligent baby panda. It's a terrible idea.

 

Any way to make energy/anything reasonable? I mean I can slot in every power knockback to knockdown, but I thought I read somewhere that's not totally effective..

 

Any thoughts? Or any other suggestions for a 'fun' (in little kid terms) combo replacement?

Oh, one more thing, just to fully answer your questions. In terms of a replacement, I'd imagine that electrical would also work thematically. I still think energy is completely viable, but you did ask for fun combo replacements.

 

Also, what if the little panda was held in a zoo, held for experiments, and became...upset...and repressed and wanted others to know his pain. He builds a robot out of the testing equipment that was used on him and escapes. He now wanders the world with his only robotic companion, making others feel the trauma of his experiences. I'm making a theme argument for an electrical blast/pain domination panda here. 😉

Edited October 31, 2019 by Darkir

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, Darkir said:

Energy is not an anathema to good players, it is just an anathema to min/maxers...

 

...and anyone who hates their area powers on long times hitting nothing because a second before their cast is done someone has scattered the group or anyone who requires an anchor for their AoE power and wants the area of effect to hit nearby targets (say like Transfusion or Fulcrum Shift) but finds their anchor similarly hurled away a fraction of a second before the power animates.

 

I suppose one could see it as min-max to want a heal to hit party members instead of radiating over empty space. Not the usual way people refer to not dying, but if I squint real hard, I can kinda see it.

[Darkir]

12 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

...and anyone who hates their area powers on long times hitting nothing because a second before their cast is done someone has scattered the group or anyone who requires an anchor for their AoE power and wants the area of effect to hit nearby targets (say like Transfusion or Fulcrum Shift) but finds their anchor similarly hurled away a fraction of a second before the power animates.

 

I suppose one could see it as min-max to want a heal to hit party members instead of radiating over empty space. Not the usual way people refer to not dying, but if I squint real hard, I can kinda see it.

So for pbaoe powers and some others without a projectile, the game actually decides who the powers hit when you start casting the power and not when you finish. I see this all the time when mobs are running from rain of fire and still get hit and knocked down from inferno. The anchor point is 100% valid and incredibly annoying when it happens.

 

I made the min/maxing statement with the assumption that you would put a kb to kd io in every knockback power or even just every aoe knockback power, thus using a fair number of slots and limiting other options. This is the "knockback tax" that people talk about in builds with knockback powers.

[Haijinx]

I agree with Rathulfr, put sudden accel kb to kd into Energy Torrent, Explosive Blast, and Nova.  

 

Then learn how far you ST blasts push badies as you are leveling up and keep that in mind.  The ST stuff is almost never a problem.

 

That's it. 

[Possibly]

Awesome. Thanks everyone. I think I will stick with energy and as one said, be responsible for any I KB away. And slot KB to KD on the AoEs.

[MTeague]

On 10/31/2019 at 12:25 PM, Possibly said:

I was thinking of having a corruptor that's something like energy/empathy. The concept is a robot controlled by a hyper intelligent baby panda.

Wait.  So... concept wise.... the mechanical robot that runs around attacking things, it not really your character per se. 

Your character is the anime-panda riding on it's shoulder?

 

That's awesome.

[Hyperstrike]

Define a "Good Player".
 

I ask because pretty much every time I hear "good player", it's coming from someone who has limited their thinking on one or more aspects of the game.

[oedipus_tex]

The discussion about the "tax" had to do with whether being heavily encouraged to slot KB to KD is a burden or an advantage. The argument that its a burden/tax is that without that slotting the powers are pretty annoying. The argument its not a tax is that if there was some Knockdown proc out there you could put in normal powers that had a 50% chance to knockdown each mob in the area of effect (or 100% in the case of Nova) practically everyone would slot it, because that's an amazing proc rate. Energy is "forced" into the proc in the sense that you're converting what's already there, but its worth it.

Edited November 11, 2019 by oedipus_tex

[Gulbasaur]

On 11/11/2019 at 10:51 AM, Hyperstrike said:

I ask because pretty much every time I hear "good player", it's coming from someone who has limited their thinking on one or more aspects of the game.

I there is a vocal part of the community that values efficiency above all else, and efficiency often means playing the way they want to play without compromise. There are also people who think the best way to play the game is to never leave Atlas Park until you hit level 50 by using AE farms.  Then there are the petless masterminds and melee-range controllers who take a different approach. I've always felt that the game is balanced around tanks rather than teams, which is why it's arguably more fun to play without them.

 

If your idea of good is efficient at turning spawns into rewards, that's fine and I hope you enjoy running radio missions in PI and AE farms, but if your idea of good is to make sure your whole team is having fun, that's the team I want to be on.

 

Knockback is fine, but like anything to do with positioning (including AoE placement and tanking tactics) you have to be conscious of what you're doing.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Gulbasaur

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

I there is a vocal part of the community that values efficiency above all else, and efficiency often means playing the way they want to play without compromise. There are also people who think the best way to play the game is to never leave Atlas Part until you hit level 50 by using AE farms.  Then there are the petless masterminds and melee-range controllers who take a different approach. I've always felt that the game is balanced around tanks rather than teams, which is why it's arguably more fun to play without them.

 

If your idea of good is efficient at turning spawns into rewards, that's fine and I hope you enjoy running radio missions in PI and AE farms, but if your idea of good is to make sure your whole team is having fun, that's the team I want to be on.

 

Knockback is fine, but like anything to do with positioning (including AoE placement and tanking tactics) you have to be conscious of what you're doing.

This is part of why I stopped playing force fielders.
I'd smash multiple groups back into a corner, and someone would inevitably scream about "KB".
I'd say "They're all there in the corner.  AoE them!"
It's part of the reason I didn't move off Protector  much.

[DougGraves]

One thing I didn't see commented - immobilize provides knockback but not knockdown protection now.  So if you are in a team with a dominator or controller you can use knockback powers on foes that are immobilized and you will not knock them back.

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

This is part of why I stopped playing force fielders.
I'd smash multiple groups back into a corner, and someone would inevitably scream about "KB".
I'd say "They're all there in the corner.  AoE them!"
It's part of the reason I didn't move off Protector  much.

 

I think you should have ignored obviously crazy people. 

[bartwart]

Knockback is a great damage mitigator, don't forget that, so it can definitely fit within a defensive regime.  However, I do think the knockback to knockdown IO makes sense for the AOEs.  For the CONE engy power (forget the name) consider slotting it for EXTRA knockback....that gives you a nice power for moving mobs where you want them to be.  For the single target powers, I wouldn't worry about the knockback...just slot with range damage IOs like you would normally do.

 

And while playing in PUGs, don't over think it.  Do what you feel is necessary.  However, you can expect to get the tells asking you to control the knockback, no matter how conscientious you are, mostly from melee types and the occasional warshade.  You can handle that however you want, but personally I just troll them back.  I had a description explaining I was going to do a lot of knock back and I don't care what you think, and for those folks that failed to read my bio before complaining, I just trolled them back.  Despite all of this, I was a tad bit conscientious about my knock back....I just get tired of all the tells, so trolling them back is part of the fun.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by bartwart

[quixoteprog]

56 minutes ago, bartwart said:

Knockback is a great damage mitigator, don't forget that, so it can definitely fit within a defensive regime.  However, I do think the knockback to knockdown IO makes sense for the AOEs.  For the CONE engy power (forget the name) consider slotting it for EXTRA knockback....that gives you a nice power for moving mobs where you want them to be.  For the single target powers, I wouldn't worry about the knockback...just slot with range damage IOs like you would normally do.

 

And while playing in PUGs, don't over think it.  Do what you feel is necessary.  However, you can expect to get the tells asking you to control the knockback, no matter how conscientious you are, mostly from melee types and the occasional warshade.  You can handle that however you want, but personally I just troll them back.  I had a description explaining I was going to do a lot of knock back and I don't care what you think, and for those folks that failed to read my bio before complaining, I just trolled them back.  Despite all of this, I was a tad bit conscientious about my knock back....I just get tired of all the tells, so trolling them back is part of the fun.

 

 

I agree that knockback is cool. It turns all of your attacks into a tiny bit of a control power. I like it. I am not sure I would slot Energy Torrent for MORE of it, thought, at least not to add to the distance things get knocked back, but if there is something that adds to the chance of doing knockback I would slot that in SECOND. Is there such a thing?

 

Also, I find it curious that you say you get tells complaining about knockback. It may be because I solo a lot but I have been on quite a few teams with a 50+ En/En blaster and have never had anyone in a PUG even mention knockback once. I usually stick to single target attacks in a group, though, unless the spawn is in an alcove or I am hovering overhead. And I don't have knockdown converters in ANY of my powers either. Not even the AoEs. Maybe it is a different server? My guy is on Excelsior.

 

Although, maybe they were griping about it and just never sent me a tell.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, quixoteprog said:

Although, maybe they were griping about it and just never sent me a tell.

 There is a certain amount of knockback annoyance I will tolerate. If someone exceeds that amount I do not make a scene but instead, when the mission is over, thank the group for their time and depart. Everyone is kept happy that way.

[bartwart]

4 hours ago, quixoteprog said:

I agree that knockback is cool. It turns all of your attacks into a tiny bit of a control power. I like it. I am not sure I would slot Energy Torrent for MORE of it, thought, at least not to add to the distance things get knocked back, but if there is something that adds to the chance of doing knockback I would slot that in SECOND. Is there such a thing?

 

Also, I find it curious that you say you get tells complaining about knockback. It may be because I solo a lot but I have been on quite a few teams with a 50+ En/En blaster and have never had anyone in a PUG even mention knockback once. I usually stick to single target attacks in a group, though, unless the spawn is in an alcove or I am hovering overhead. And I don't have knockdown converters in ANY of my powers either. Not even the AoEs. Maybe it is a different server? My guy is on Excelsior.

 

Although, maybe they were griping about it and just never sent me a tell.

Maybe you don't need extra knockback for Energy Torrent.  It's a preference thing, but sometimes it's fun to wreck a group, especially an ambush.

 

I'm on Excelsior too, so maybe the angry tells were just because of the way i played.  I also had Storm, and was using gale and hurricane all the time, so there's that.

Edited November 14, 2019 by bartwart

[Haijinx]

14 hours ago, bartwart said:

Maybe you don't need extra knockback for Energy Torrent.  It's a preference thing, but sometimes it's fun to wreck a group, especially an ambush.

 

I'm on Excelsior too, so maybe the angry tells were just because of the way i played.  I also had Storm, and was using gale and hurricane all the time, so there's that.

I use a KB to KD there, its a great "Sitdown!" power.   

[gameboy1234]

On 10/31/2019 at 12:38 PM, Rathulfr said:

Much of the concerns about knockback are overblown, and one can completely ameliorate most concerns by simply being a little more thoughtful about it.  As a once and current Energy Blaster, here are my simple rules for managing knockback on Energy Blast:

A happy discovery back on live:  /Electric secondary has Electric Fences as its level one power, and it will completely remove KB from your targets, no need for special aiming considerations.  Nice for locking down targets before you blast 'em.  No need to wait for special enhancements to be affordable (and this was before IOs anyway).

 

My level 6 blaster was given a "10" emote by our Stone/Stone tank after he noticed I was locking my own targets down before blasting them (and keeping the targets in his Mud Pots) way back when on live.

 

[Rathulfr]

7 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

A happy discovery back on live:  /Electric secondary has Electric Fences as its level one power, and it will completely remove KB from your targets, no need for special aiming considerations.  Nice for locking down targets before you blast 'em.  No need to wait for special enhancements to be affordable (and this was before IOs anyway).

 

My level 6 blaster was given a "10" emote by our Stone/Stone tank after he noticed I was locking my own targets down before blasting them (and keeping the targets in his Mud Pots) way back when on live.

 

Yep, this is true of all of the immobilize powers, including those in the Epic Power Pools.

[Machariel]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Yep, this is true of all of the immobilize powers, including those in the Epic Power Pools.

I thought Gravity was weird and had its KB to KD attached to its holds?

 

  Perhaps one of the advantages of bringing control archetypes is that they're good at turning knockback into knockdown for everyone, all the time, for free, in this way liberating humanity from the unending philosophical war of knockback vs no knockback. 🤔😅 as long as they can get to the mob before the KB and after its grouped up (and this is where a great tank can shine).

 

I figure, everyone agrees that unmitigated, indiscriminate knockback is irritating.  So if I were building a character that wanted to use a lot of KB, there are 2 solutions: either use KB to KD IOs, or use what I can collectively call "tactics" (hover from above, herd into wall, etc.), depending on your playstyle.  I like to fight large groups and to me the idea of finding particular enemies to knock around and to spend time repositioning sounds tedious and potentially dangerous depending on what other mobs are around, so I'll slot KB to KD in almost all of my powers (and definitely in AoEs).  This is the "slot tax." I could ALSO use the FF +rech proc in a bunch of my powers and be able to run at really high recharge, which would be fun, but I think you give up too much in opportunity cost (set bonuses & other procs).  But, that would maximize the amount of knockdown you do, so maybe that's your thing. and if I wanted to really lean into knockback that's what I'd do.  Actually, I think I just came up with a concept for an Earth/Energy dom, which can definitely benefit from the recharge. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Machariel