Why so many chaotic Controllers?

[ninja surprise]

 

On 9/2/2021 at 9:14 AM, Solarverse said:

When I play a Troller, I use the hell out of my Immobs...they key difference though, is that I wait until the baddies stack up on the Tank. Then I lock them down so that the Blaster can be free to annihilate with their AoE, Scrappers can focus on mobs without running all over creation and Tanks get their bonus defenses/regeneration/recovery for having large groups of NPCs within their range.

 

The "right way" for Tanks to play is to get to the spawn quick enough that the spawn is already clumped up on them by the time the team catches up and starts unloading immobs and AoEs.  If the tank is sitting with the team, trying to punch the very last critter, then the Tank is wasting time and slowing things down more than an early immob does. It's silly for all 8 teammates to fight every single last critter in a spawn, unless it's an AV.

 

On 9/2/2021 at 9:30 AM, Sovera said:

To be honest not even that approach satisfies me. Because of body blocking mobs do several concentric rings around me. Once the first ring is dead arrested the second ring surrounds me. This repeats itself until all are dead. Even when a Controller waits until I'm surrounded I no longer have enemies scooting closer when they are immobilized.

 

Then taunt some more badguys! They can only immobilize 16 at a time, so you can grab another spawn and bring them into the battle.  If the mob's controlled then you're free to go find and herd another spawn. The mobs jump over each other to get to you so it doesn't matter if some are immobilized.

 

On 9/2/2021 at 9:30 AM, Sovera said:

Like I said, when the enemies don't hurt and no one is in danger spamming mass CCs does nothing. Fears, immobilizes, stuns. They are great for optional panic buttons such as two spawns close together or ambushes, which are moments when the number of enemies surpass 17 and some will be running around trying to hit the rest of the team. But outside those panic moments to be used or not be used influences nothing, and most of the time just slows everything. It's hardly a big deal though, but it is what it is.

 

Now in that example of the Resistance being a dangerous group that would be when stuns and fears would make a large difference in survival, so the fault lies in the game that makes 90% of the content too easy to require anything more fancy than hitting something until it stops moving.

 

OK, this may sound like a crazy idea, but why not play an AT that isn't a Tank? Or deliberately get two spawns so there's more than 16 critters to fight at once? If they can immobilize 16 critters, pull in another 16! You're slowing the team down if you're standing in the middle of an immobilized mob and can't reach anything.
It seems self-defeating to say "I can make a toon that can survive 90% of the game without any threat whatsoever " and then complain the game is too easy.  Play a toon that doesn't have mez resistance.  Play a toon where you need immobs and holds to keep the mobs at bay while you defeat them and stop them from mezzing you and your team.  Maybe play a pure buffage toon where you focus on making your squishy teammates tougher.  Form a team of all squishies where everyone spams AoEs and buffs and risks death at every corner and only the majesty of teamwork keeps everyone alive and rezzed. It's fun!

And while a Tank complains that immobilized critters can't get into their tiny 10' PBAoE, Controllers and Blasters are laughing in 30' radius AoEs.

 

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, ninja surprise said:

 

 

The "right way" for Tanks to play is to get to the spawn quick enough that the spawn is already clumped up on them by the time the team catches up and starts unloading immobs and AoEs.  If the tank is sitting with the team, trying to punch the very last critter, then the Tank is wasting time and slowing things down more than an early immob does. It's silly for all 8 teammates to fight every single last critter in a spawn, unless it's an AV.

 

 

Then taunt some more badguys! They can only immobilize 16 at a time, so you can grab another spawn and bring them into the battle.  If the mob's controlled then you're free to go find and herd another spawn. The mobs jump over each other to get to you so it doesn't matter if some are immobilized.

 

 

OK, this may sound like a crazy idea, but why not play an AT that isn't a Tank? Or deliberately get two spawns so there's more than 16 critters to fight at once? If they can immobilize 16 critters, pull in another 16! You're slowing the team down if you're standing in the middle of an immobilized mob and can't reach anything.
It seems self-defeating to say "I can make a toon that can survive 90% of the game without any threat whatsoever " and then complain the game is too easy.  Play a toon that doesn't have mez resistance.  Play a toon where you need immobs and holds to keep the mobs at bay while you defeat them and stop them from mezzing you and your team.  Maybe play a pure buffage toon where you focus on making your squishy teammates tougher.  Form a team of all squishies where everyone spams AoEs and buffs and risks death at every corner and only the majesty of teamwork keeps everyone alive and rezzed. It's fun!

And while a Tank complains that immobilized critters can't get into their tiny 10' PBAoE, Controllers and Blasters are laughing in 30' radius AoEs.

 

 

*headscratch* Okay.

[Solarverse]

On 12/10/2021 at 6:15 PM, ninja surprise said:

 

 

The "right way" for Tanks to play is to get to the spawn quick enough that the spawn is already clumped up on them by the time the team catches up and starts unloading immobs and AoEs.  If the tank is sitting with the team, trying to punch the very last critter, then the Tank is wasting time and slowing things down more than an early immob does. It's silly for all 8 teammates to fight every single last critter in a spawn, unless it's an AV.

 

 

Sometimes you have teams that chase the Tank instead of defeating the last couple of bad guys, it's like you have them on a leash and sometimes it is difficult to do what you say here. They chase you when you try to move on because they want to be the first to nuke, it gets hard to peal yourself away from the rest of the team to gather up the next mob when you have the blasters nipping at your heels; meanwhile you are left with defenders and what-not trying to play clean up because the rest of the team couldn't be bothered with them. So as good as that sounds in theory, that does not always go as planned.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Sometimes you have teams that chase the Tank instead of defeating the last couple of bad guys, it's like you have them on a leash and sometimes it is difficult to do what you say here. They chase you when you try to move on because they want to be the first to nuke, it gets hard to peal yourself away from the rest of the team to gather up the next mob when you have the blasters nipping at your heels; meanwhile you are left with defenders and what-not trying to play clean up because the rest of the team couldn't be bothered with them. So as good as that sounds in theory, that does not always go as planned.

 

Lets not forget the origin of this is: 'mass immobilizes are useless and only slow down a whole team so the Controller can do an extra 20 DPS, so please don't'.

 

Dunno, seems obvious to me but perhaps not for others. If mass CC is not helping then don't use it. I say mass immobilizes but mass stuns, mass fears, etc all fit in. CC is meant to help a team. If the team does not need it then why use it?

 

Why should seven people need to work around the one person who wants to add 20 DPS to their imaginary DPS meter?

 

People learn not to use their nukes on one mob, so it's the same principle: team is plowing through content then why slow the plowing just to throw powers that scatter mobs? Mass CC is for emergencies. Two spawns agroed at once? Ambush? Tank is over there and the trigger happy Blaster grabbed a different group? Bam! Controller, it's your time to shine! But when everyone is following the tank and it's handled?

 

There's no real point in reanimating this year(s) old argument though. Played with a Controller a couple alts ago and they kept spamming the immobilizes. I asked to go easy with those, twice, they kept using it. I started just dropping the spawn recently immobilized and headed to the next. No one died so it was handled and we both were happy.

[Onlyasandwich]

25 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Why should seven people need to work around the one person who wants to add 20 DPS to their imaginary DPS meter?

It's fair to say that some teams warrant more judicious use of cc, but let's look more closely.

 

As others have noted here, ranged DPS aoe is not so affected by the more thoughtful controller situation you present (immob held till clump, but your small pbaoe is no longer as efficient).

 

Foregoing containment is a fair sight more than 20 DPS, although I'll grant that it likely won't be competing with burn. At this point you are simply placing more value on your own aoe damage efficiency over the controller's. Unless your team is mostly scrappers or fire tanks, it's mostly just you vs the controller, not 7 people working around the controller.

 

Doing damage is fun! I don't gripe with those controllers who apply containment as sensibly as possible so they can enjoy the primary damage enabling mechanic they have.

 

I know burn is a bit of a special case, as it does exceptionally high damage in a pretty tight area. This really isn't the case with pretty much any other tank aoe, given the generous area buff we get.

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Onlyasandwich

[Sovera]

8 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

It's fair to say that some teams warrant more judicious use of cc, but let's look more closely.

 

As others have noted here, ranged DPS aoe is not so affected by the more thoughtful controller situation you present (immob held till clump, but your small pbaoe is no longer as efficient).

 

Foregoing containment is a fair sight more than 20 DPS, although I'll grant that it likely won't be competing with burn. At this point you are simply placing more value on your own aoe damage efficiency over the controller's. Unless your team is mostly scrappers or fire tanks, it's mostly just you vs the controller, not 7 people working around the controller.

 

Doing damage is fun! I don't gripe with those controllers who apply containment as sensibly as possible so they can enjoy the primary damage enabling mechanic they have.

 

I know burn is a bit of a special case, as it does exceptionally high damage in a pretty tight area. This really isn't the case with pretty much any other tank aoe, given the generous area buff we get.

 

 

Most Controllers don't have AoE damage (outside epic pools) so they just spam mass immobilizes for that extra bit of damage. Single target Contaiment is a different beast that benefits from near anything a Controller can throw at a mob.

 

But even an epic pool fireball contained isn't particularly high damage. We're talking of... what? A third of the HP of +3 minion? Half? I have no idea so someone else chime in.

 

Does it really matter though? No, of course not, it's just some grumbling on the same level of knockback or people 'helping' with Hurricane (same thing, I can try to explain Hurricane is not helping because even careful herding is still moving mobs around needlessly, and mobs who are being steamrolled don't need their tohit debuffed. But the person is sure that they are are helping and I can't muster the energy to argue).

 

Things are still dying, just at a slower pace.

[Cancrusher]

12 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Most Controllers don't have AoE damage (outside epic pools) so they just spam mass immobilizes for that extra bit of damage. Single target Contaiment is a different beast that benefits from near anything a Controller can throw at a mob.

 

But even an epic pool fireball contained isn't particularly high damage. We're talking of... what? A third of the HP of +3 minion? Half? I have no idea so someone else chime in.

 

Does it really matter though? No, of course not, it's just some grumbling on the same level of knockback or people 'helping' with Hurricane (same thing, I can try to explain Hurricane is not helping because even careful herding is still moving mobs around needlessly, and mobs who are being steamrolled don't need their tohit debuffed. But the person is sure that they are are helping and I can't muster the energy to argue).

 

Things are still dying, just at a slower pace.

 

Remember that the controller is there to benefit the entire team.  Immobilizing the mobs prevents them from chasing after squishier members of the team and allows scrappers and stalkers and such to trim the herd outside of the tanks taunt/AOE.  The controller is considering what is beneficial to the entire team- not just the tanker.

[Sovera]

12 minutes ago, Cancrusher said:

 

Remember that the controller is there to benefit the entire team.  Immobilizing the mobs prevents them from chasing after squishier members of the team and allows scrappers and stalkers and such to trim the herd outside of the tanks taunt/AOE.  The controller is considering what is beneficial to the entire team- not just the tanker.

 

In practice there -is- no spillage of mobs seeking squisher team mates, unless two spawns are agroed at once, or an ambush happens that exceeds the Tankers agro limit. At those moments a judicious use of CC will help. As I said above it would be dumbness to berate a Controller from using their tools to control such occasions.

[roleki]

Imagine if the top thread in the Tanker forum was "What's with all these egomaniac Tankers?"

[Cancrusher]

On 12/12/2021 at 9:05 AM, Sovera said:

 

In practice there -is- no spillage of mobs seeking squisher team mates, unless two spawns are agroed at once, or an ambush happens that exceeds the Tankers agro limit. At those moments a judicious use of CC will help. As I said above it would be dumbness to berate a Controller from using their tools to control such occasions.

 

Well, maybe I'm approaching the conversation the wrong way.  Let me toss the ball into your court for a moment, so to speak.  What do you view as the role of the controller on a team?  What is that they should be doing and when should they be doing it?

[Sovera]

52 minutes ago, Cancrusher said:

Well, maybe I'm approaching the conversation the wrong way.  Let me toss the ball into your court for a moment, so to speak.  What do you view as the role of the controller on a team?  What is that they should be doing and when should they be doing it?

 

 

My opinion:

 

Controllers as a CC AT have become obsolete with the increase in power. Namely survival. The -current- role of a Controller is a buff/debuff role, not particularly a CC role.

 

Yes, I know, we have the paradigm that no AT is needed and if we AFK for ten minutes and return the team will have continued without having noticed. This is true. But what happens when the AT is focused towards doing less damage and in exchange making the team more able to survive? That's a double whammy.

 

This is not strictly only for Controllers. For years Tankers were obsolete since a Brute could take over while Tankers were needed for 2% of the content. Only a masochist would play a Tanker since they were so slow at killing and for what? Extra mitigation? I have a whole thread about how a 'squishy' Fire Armor Tanker can do most things in game and that more survival is not needed.

 

This 'more survival is not needed' unfortunately applies to Controllers.

 

But yes, I am in the Controller forums and people who are here love their AT. It's understandable that me saying this comes as pissing in someone's cereals. I don't say it to be mean, or to pontificate, I make teams near everyday and don't post saying I refuse Controllers nor do I boot them out of the group. This whole argument came up simply due to the use of mass immobilizes.

 

 

One good thing is the shift in difficulty. No longer do we go in to face tank things like eight solo players. Controllers finally get their comeuppance as they are begged to come and help. All that is now needed is the proliferation of that difficulty because that's what was lacking these past years. An AT tailored to help the team survive requires a scenario where the team is at risk.

[Cancrusher]

13 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

 

My opinion:

 

Controllers as a CC AT have become obsolete with the increase in power. Namely survival. The -current- role of a Controller is a buff/debuff role, not particularly a CC role.

 

Yes, I know, we have the paradigm that no AT is needed and if we AFK for ten minutes and return the team will have continued without having noticed. This is true. But what happens when the AT is focused towards doing less damage and in exchange making the team more able to survive? That's a double whammy.

 

This is not strictly only for Controllers. For years Tankers were obsolete since a Brute could take over while Tankers were needed for 2% of the content. Only a masochist would play a Tanker since they were so slow at killing and for what? Extra mitigation? I have a whole thread about how a 'squishy' Fire Armor Tanker can do most things in game and that more survival is not needed.

 

This 'more survival is not needed' unfortunately applies to Controllers.

 

But yes, I am in the Controller forums and people who are here love their AT. It's understandable that me saying this comes as pissing in someone's cereals. I don't say it to be mean, or to pontificate, I make teams near everyday and don't post saying I refuse Controllers nor do I boot them out of the group. This whole argument came up simply due to the use of mass immobilizes.

 

 

One good thing is the shift in difficulty. No longer do we go in to face tank things like eight solo players. Controllers finally get their comeuppance as they are begged to come and help. All that is now needed is the proliferation of that difficulty because that's what was lacking these past years. An AT tailored to help the team survive requires a scenario where the team is at risk.

 

Well, I don't disagree that there is a problem with content difficulty being sufficiently easy as to make several AT roles unnecessary/obsolete.  But that is a problem with game content, not the AT in question- nor with the player spamming their favorite AOE lockdown powers (which, let's face it, is a cardinal feature of many, of not most, Controller power sets).

 

We can also turn this argument on it's head.  Whatever the tankers improvements (and I agree, they are several and they are good.  The class is much improved these days), outside of the new Doctor Aeon ST, survival is still not an issue and tankers are not needed on a team to contribute to such.  One might argue that tankers should try to taunt as little as possible, so that Controllers can enjoy their AOE lockdowns more- or even that both classes should restrain from using these signature abilities (taunt and lockdowns) so that classes like stalkers can scrappers will have something more exciting to do than punch distracted, immobilized opponents.

 

To summarize, I think the problem is that the difficulty level is generally too easy and the AT's too powerful by comparison for the AT's to function as they were designed. 

 

Contrarywise, I don't think it's fair or helpful to criticize players for playing their AT as it was designed to be played, because team-based content is too easy thanks to power creep in the game.

 

Just trying to look at it from the other side here, Sovera.  Again, I don't disagree with your assessment of the game difficulty/survivability, overall.

[Hardboiled Hero]

Okay, so some thoughts I was having while reading the thread, organized semi-randomly:

 

  First, 'trollers mostly don't keep using their AoE controls to do damage.  They keep using their controls because they want to be an active member of the team.  Like everyone else who plays the game, they want to press buttons and have good things happen.

 

  This game breaks down when you forget that it's really all about the feeling that people get from having great power and exercising great responsibility.  The X-men have never said "Sorry Storm, you're not allowed to go on missions anymore because we can do them faster without you." (well.. except maybe when she was de-powered)

 

  I don't really think that 'trollers are weak because other heroes can survive everything.  I think it's more about the fact that mobs die too quickly.  The reason a 'troller uses their biggest flashiest powers at the start of a fight is because there's basically a new fight starting on cooldown.  If you wait even a second into a fight in order to use your flashy powers, you'll be hitting like 2 guys when (or if) you use the power.  If you want a 'troller to wait a minute before using their "best" stuff, then you need to create scenarios in which waiting is an option that allows the 'troller to still participate.

 

  

[Solarverse]

On 12/12/2021 at 6:17 PM, roleki said:

Imagine if the top thread in the Tanker forum was "What's with all these egomaniac Tankers?"

 

We can go start that thread if you like...just to see how that plays out, lol.

[roleki]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

We can go start that thread if you like...just to see how that plays out, lol.

 

If ever a thread should get locked on the first page, it would be that.

[ninja surprise]

On 12/11/2021 at 6:34 PM, Sovera said:

Lets not forget the origin of this is: 'mass immobilizes are useless and only slow down a whole team so the Controller can do an extra 20 DPS, so please don't'.

 

Dunno, seems obvious to me but perhaps not for others. If mass CC is not helping then don't use it. I say mass immobilizes but mass stuns, mass fears, etc all fit in. CC is meant to help a team. If the team does not need it then why use it?

 

Why should seven people need to work around the one person who wants to add 20 DPS to their imaginary DPS meter?

 

Why should anyone need to work around you so you can add 20 DPS to your own imaginary DPS meter?  Why should you be the only one who gets to defeat mobs?

 

I had three recent experiences that made me think about this thread again:

 

1) I rolled a new Katana/SR Scrapper, since I don't remember ever playing Katana and wanted to give it a spin. Because making alts and playing the game is fun! I joined a DFB and it turned out I was the only melee toon. There were at least two Controllers (Elec and Dark) and I don't remember what the others were. Controllers were immobilizing stuff before it clumped, and I had to move around to stab things, the horror! But we still cruised right through it and joked around in chat and had a good time. XP and levels were had by all.

 

2)  Joined a Yin on my Grav/Kin controller.  It was at good team of mixed ATs and we ran at +2, finishing in just over 30 minutes. Not bad for a defeat-all where we weren't hurrying. Oh and we got delayed by a bug where one person couldn't exit a mission and had to log out and back in. The most frustrating thing was that the "must punch everything" melee ATs kept charging the Super Stunners just before they were defeated, triggering the rez.  Melee was definitely slowing the team down by making us defeat the same mobs twice. 

 

3) Joined a Ape/Mage on my Grav/Kin controller. We were cruising through the missions, doing well. When we got to Battle Maiden I was being careful to not use immobilizes so that she could get out of the blue patches... and then I noticed we didn't have ANY melee ATs on the team: 3 Controllers, 2 Masterminds, 1 each Blaster, Corrupter, and Sentinel.  We did just fine without any tanks or brutes slowing us down. It was a lot of fun and the big AVs went down faster than I've seen when it was mostly melee ATs.

 

Melee isn't needed, so why use it?  Ranged ATs can defeat more mobs faster; melee only slows the team down by having to chase every single mob instead of using control to stop the runners and defeat everything all at once.

 

@Sovera I respect you and have learned from the builds you post. It might help to remember that although your Tank is immune to mez and damage, other ATs aren't. If there's any squishies on the team, they benefit from controls. Especially if there's debuffers or controllers in the enemy spawn that can mez the squishy teammates, it is beneficial to hold, fear, or stun them, even if it means a melee toon has to move a few feet to attack it. 

 

It just seems like a silly argument. "Game is too easy because I'm invincible and nothing can hurt me." "Game is too frustrating because other players make it so my burn patch can't defeat everything at once." "Game takes too long when someone else gets to defeat something instead of me."

 

Maybe try chatting with players, get to know them, and learn to enjoy their company, instead of only focusing on making it end as quickly as possible? 

Or heck, spin up your own private server and roll-back the aggro cap so you can solo entire maps like the old days.

Edited December 16, 2021 by ninja surprise

[Sovera]

5 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

 

Why should anyone need to work around you so you can add 20 DPS to your own imaginary DPS meter?  Why should you be the only one who gets to defeat mobs?

 

I had three recent experiences that made me think about this thread again:

 

1) I rolled a new Katana/SR Scrapper, since I don't remember ever playing Katana and wanted to give it a spin. Because making alts and playing the game is fun! I joined a DFB and it turned out I was the only melee toon. There were at least two Controllers (Elec and Dark) and I don't remember what the others were. Controllers were immobilizing stuff before it clumped, and I had to move around to stab things, the horror! But we still cruised right through it and joked around in chat and had a good time. XP and levels were had by all.

 

2)  Joined a Yin on my Grav/Kin controller.  It was at good team of mixed ATs and we ran at +2, finishing in just over 30 minutes. Not bad for a defeat-all where we weren't hurrying. Oh and we got delayed by a bug where one person couldn't exit a mission and had to log out and back in. The most frustrating thing was that the "must punch everything" melee ATs kept charging the Super Stunners just before they were defeated, triggering the rez.  Melee was definitely slowing the team down by making us defeat the same mobs twice. 

 

3) Joined a Ape/Mage on my Grav/Kin controller. We were cruising through the missions, doing well. When we got to Battle Maiden I was being careful to not use immobilizes so that she could get out of the blue patches... and then I noticed we didn't have ANY melee ATs on the team. All Controllers, Corrupters, Defenders, and Blasters.  We did just fine without any tanks or brutes slowing us down. It was a lot of fun and the big AVs went down faster than I've seen when it was mostly melee ATs.

 

Melee isn't needed, so why use it?  Ranged ATs can defeat more mobs faster; melee only slows the team down by having to chase every single mob instead of using control to stop the runners and defeat everything all at once.

 

@Sovera I respect you and have learned from the builds you post. It might help to remember that although your Tank is immune to mez and damage, other ATs aren't. If there's any squishies on the team, they benefit from controls. Especially if there's debuffers or controllers in the enemy spawn that can mez the squishy teammates, it is beneficial to hold, fear, or stun them, even if it means a melee toon has to move a few feet to attack it. 

 

It just seems like a silly argument. "Game is too easy because I'm invincible and nothing can hurt me." "Game is too frustrating because other players make it so my burn patch can't defeat everything at once." "Game takes too long when someone else gets to defeat something instead of me."

 

Maybe try chatting with players, get to know them, and learn to enjoy their company, instead of only focusing on making it end as quickly as possible? 

Or heck, spin up your own private server and roll-back the aggro cap so you can solo entire maps like the old days.

 

You're making a big thing, plus rolling with assumptions, on a topic I'm not particularly sanguine about. Nothing that you have said so far has struck me as original or something I have not encountered or even personally played instead of watching others do it.

 

C'mon, am I Diantane or something?

 

Do I go around making false claims or proclaiming my opinion as gospel? I say it as I see it. It ranks as pet peeves, not something that makes me come to the forums to rant on. My post history is available, I don't think I have ranted about mass immobilizes or even knockbacks. I do grumble when someone has made a topic about it and I pitch in. Even this thread was not one I started, yet others feel like I do, obviously.

 

The bottom line is still the same: enemies don't wander away from the tank (if the tank goes first). A Blaster can nuke with full impunity because once agroed the mobs are sticking with the tank. Mass CCs are useful for when things get dicey: tank dies, two spawns are agroed, ambush comes from behind. Mass CC is not useful when things are steamrolled.

 

 

Now please, Ninja, I bear you no ill will since we can have an argument without it, but do stop trying to make it look like I'm a lunatic who has just first set foot on the game and has not touched a Controller.

[Cancrusher]

@Sovera  Hey, I don't think you're a lunatic (and while I can't read minds, I'm  not inclined to think that Ninja- or anyone else- thinks so either).  You have an opinion on the topic and the right to air that opinion just like the rest of us.  Those of us that disagree are just trying to illustrate how some of us look at it from a different viewpoint.  

 

FWIW, I don't even think Diantane is a lunatic- just someone that gets easily frustrated overcoming the learning curve of a game that they otherwise generally like, because they haven't spent enough time playing that game to high level.  😛

[oedipus_tex]

Just to chime in a bit on the AoE Immobilizes:

 

The AoE immobilizes typically do less damage than typical AoE blasts but are much larger. A typical AoE blast has radius 15, the immobilizes are radius 30. That's an area increase in 2D coverage from 908 feet to 2827 feet--which is actually over 3 times larger in terms of 2D coverage. If you measure spheres, the difference is 2827 ft versus 11309ft, or a bit over four times larger. The potential downside of course is that you immobilize things in that huge area. I think it's an interesting tradeoff.

 

The Plant immobilize does x2 as much damage as the rest of the immobs, and given its huge radius is actually a viable attack. Electric Control has a hefty endurance drain in its immob and a fast animation that makes it worth spamming--personally for sappers I recommend taking Fold Space for the best of both worlds, so you can still spam it but not interfere too much with the team.

 

The real losers in the immobilize arms race is Ice Control. It's animation is super slow and gives this power an abysmal DPA, around 7 before enhancements, never worth casting for damage unless you're solo. Unfortunately Ice Control also lacks other hard controls to bank Containment on. With Ice Control on teams you're probably better off just letting things run around without the immobilize at all, since Ice Slick is such a massive run speed debuff. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[ninja surprise]

6 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

The AoE immobilizes typically do less damage than typical AoE blasts but are much larger. A typical AoE blast has radius 15, the immobilizes are radius 30. That's an area increase in 2D coverage from 908 feet to 2827 feet--which is actually over 3 times larger in terms of 2D coverage. If you measure spheres, the difference is 2827 ft versus 11309ft, or a bit over four times larger. The potential downside of course is that you immobilize things in that huge area. I think it's an interesting tradeoff.

 

Just did a Synapse on my Grav/Kin and that massive AoE surprised me.  It's easy to catch mobs from two spawns, reaching around corners.  There was a Fire/Kin Corrupter on the team too, and with SB and Siphon Speed my Crushing Field was recharging in less than 4 seconds and performed like a supermassive never ending Rain of Fire**. Constant DoTs.

The melee types focused on bosses while the Plant controller and I melted all the minions.  It was a blast.

 

** Like Rain of Fire except without the fear and mobs stayed put where we could keep blasting them.

Edited December 18, 2021 by ninja surprise

[subbacultchas]

Personally, I tend to view the AOE immobs/holds through the lens of playing a lot of tankers. So my goal is to not do the things that would probably be annoying and slow the steamroll were I tanking. I wait a few seconds for aggro to clump up before applying either, usually reserving the aoe holds when aggro spills over. I don't spam the immobs even then, reapply them every 5-10 second depending on how fast we are moving, and whether more groups are being pulled in. I fully understand how frustrating it can be when you're trying to get things in nice packs, and they keep getting immobilized and spread out more than you'd like. So I try to minimize that myself too.

Sans anyone tanking and taunting groups, whatever. I just pay attention to what the teams doing and respond accordingly.

Edited December 18, 2021 by subbacultchas

[oedipus_tex]

On 12/18/2021 at 2:29 PM, subbacultchas said:

Personally, I tend to view the AOE immobs/holds through the lens of playing a lot of tankers. So my goal is to not do the things that would probably be annoying and slow the steamroll were I tanking. I wait a few seconds for aggro to clump up before applying either, usually reserving the aoe holds when aggro spills over. I don't spam the immobs even then, reapply them every 5-10 second depending on how fast we are moving, and whether more groups are being pulled in. I fully understand how frustrating it can be when you're trying to get things in nice packs, and they keep getting immobilized and spread out more than you'd like. So I try to minimize that myself too.

Sans anyone tanking and taunting groups, whatever. I just pay attention to what the teams doing and respond accordingly.

 

 

This is a good strategy. There's a bigger picture item I think too with controls and their role in the current meta. Immobilizes aren't the only control that tends to prevent enemy clumping, the same thing happens with Stuns and Holds. Both of those control types usually have smaller radii, usually around 20 or 25ft, but the effect is similar. Because the current game is so much more survivable than it was classically, Controller and Dominator Controls can actually hinder more than they help in some situations. That's why I rate Blasters so highly in the current typical scenario, and also partly why Seeds of Confusion is such a god-tier power, since it eliminates threats without discouraging clumping. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[subbacultchas]

Yeah there is definitely a lot to consider with controllers now. I think it's also the case of "too many chefs spoil the soup" often enough too. On large teams with taunters, having more than than one or two controllers quickly becomes chaotic despite the best of intentions. Personally I love the chaos of a controller heavy team with a lot of range backup, but it doesn't mesh well with the clumping and melees very often. I have been on that side of it plenty of times as well. 

Although some of the most fun I've had recently is a three man team I've been running with friends. I'm running grav/dark with the teleport pool, use fold space or wormhole to merge a couple groups, and drop tar patch/immob on them. Then I plink at them with propel while the stone/psi blaster and storm/water defender just eat the pretty packs alive and we truck on to the next. Ran a few TFs just the three of us and it's been a lot of fun.

[ninja surprise]

Just finished a Market Crash with 4 controllers, two Blasters, one Defender, and one Stalker.  It was a total hoot! The Stalker happily ran around Assassin Striking everything while the rest of us mass AoE'd everything.  The Defender and I were both Kinetics, me grav/kin and he was kin/sonic, so the whole team was almost always at the damage cap.  We were always doing 2 or 3 spawns at a time, whatever was close enough to pull with a snipe or Wormhole.

It was pretty chaotic! But the Stalker never complained about needing to take a few steps to stab something. It was just a perpetual AoE-fest and it was loads of fun.

 

I realized Tanks are like short people, complaining they can't reach the top shelf so they ask will everyone please stop using all the shelves the little people can't reach. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 12/15/2021 at 7:55 PM, Sovera said:

The bottom line is still the same: enemies don't wander away from the tank (if the tank goes first). A Blaster can nuke with full impunity because once agroed the mobs are sticking with the tank. Mass CCs are useful for when things get dicey: tank dies, two spawns are agroed, ambush comes from behind. Mass CC is not useful when things are steamrolled.

 

I prefer teams without tanks and blasters.

 

If I really want to steamroll, I'll run with nothing but eight corruptors. ITF testing showed me that.

 

I honestly think this whole argument is SAF. Almost as bad as the knockback threads.