Why so many chaotic Controllers?

[Solarverse]

10/03/2021 UPDATE: Before anyone posts on this thread, know this was written in bad taste a couple years back. I still prefer order over chaos, but that does not mean those who play chaos style are "bad players" it simply means they don't mix well with player who prefer order. Neither play style is the wrong way or the right way, they are just two different styles of play that tend to collide with one another. Now back to your regular scheduled programming.

Controllers seem to play very differently than they did before. I actually find it frustrating to play a Blaster or Tank or Defender who uses anchors on pugs because a good majority of Controllers and Doms will lock down mobs with an immobilize long before the Tank can even gather the mobs and stack them on him. So AoE's are only hitting a few targets rather than a good number of them, Tanks are losing out on their bonus defense from having enemies within melee range, and players who use anchor targets are only able to debuff a select few targets. And this is IF a player with knock back doesn't knock back all the targets first.

 

So what gives? Why the change in play style over the years? I can't really accept the, "It's because of IO's" thing because honestly, it is still a slower method to wipe out mobs even with IOs. It just seems like over the years players forgot how to play, or there are a ton of new players that far outnumber the old ones...and one thing I have noticed, is that not many players will say anything. They will send me private tells complaining, but they won't actually say something to the players who are doing this.

 

It's almost as if the old school CoH players who know how to play, have all gone silent due to being outnumbered. It's like now we are a secret society or something and we only talk about it to each other, rather than in the open.

 

And trust me, I am just glad the game is alive again as well...so I get that, let it be, right? Just glad the game is back. However, I'm just curious how this bad style of playing (yes, bad in my opinion, I am sure a lot of people will say this is not bad playing) started, and at what point was it acceptable? I remember in the old days of early and mid CoH, if you played this way you would have at least 3 or 4 players on a team of 8 trying to help you learn to play nice with your team, and if you refused, you were kicked. These days everyone just tolerates it and instead of actually trying to ask the bad player to play nice, they would rather send me tells in private and talk bad about the player instead. Have we gotten to a point that players are just scared to death to offend somebody so we stay quiet?

 

And by the way, I am guilty of keeping quiet as well. I simply put 1 star above their heads and note why...and then avoid playing with said bad player again, since if I were to say something, it would be, "Don't tell me how to play." Why did players who prefer order over chaos stop speaking up when a bad player enters the mix? Somebody mind explaining to me how this happened?

Edited October 3, 2021 by Solarverse

[Coyote]

With IOs and how easy they are to get here, the game has gotten really easy.

Easy game, no need to learn how to play it right. You still win the missions without much difficulty.

When debt mattered, and learning how to survive Vahzilok was a practical necessity, and squishies pulling Paragon Protectors onto themselves by not letting the tank pull and bunch at a corner, players learned how to play more efficiently.

 

Now the game is easy enough that you can button-mash your way through content, so... fewer players are FORCED to learn. And then the playstyle of "just blast, baby" becomes more viable, and then it becomes more common. And players see teams playing like this, and learn that this is how to play.

 

Why is it accepted? Because many issues ago, playing like this really did lead to debt and to much slower progress. Now... it slows down kill speed, but given the lower level of threat in the game, it doesn't have the obvious impact of a wakie-wrapped clue-by-four to the face that will teach more players to play right. Maybe they don't notice the slower kill speed, and without the obvious "you did something wrong" of that "hospital or base" option menu in the middle of your screen, probably they don't realize that they're Doing It Wrong.

 

Now, if we could force everyone through a training regimen of Vahzilok missions in the teens, I'm sure that the problem would go away 😛

[DougGraves]

At higher levels tankers are uncommon.  Brutes rule high levels because of IOs and they do not herd.  So players do not seem to understand herding even at low levels when it is useful. 

[MTeague]

They may pickup the habit at low levels, using Immobilize as a form of damage mitigation. Sure, an immobilized mob can still shoot you, but they can't WHOMP you with that sledgehammer or that giant razorblade the size of a car that the Lost use for a sword. 

 

Endgame?  ... I could see it as a certain amount of "god dammit I'm gonna do something" to feel more useful before the someone wallops the pack with a Blaster Nuke or a Judgement Nuke. It's *really* frustrating in the late 40's when you can feel 100% CARRIED the entire time.  At least to me. I *loathe* the idea of being a leech or coasting and letting someone else do all the work, and after too many groups where everything is blown up before I can get a couple single target holds or a confuse in place, I'll say screw it and solo my way the rest of the way to 50.  

 

But if someone didn't want to solo, they may be trying to cram in some casts before everything is blown up. 

[Solarverse]

@Coyote Which goes back to what I was saying about IO's. The game is simply face rollingly easy to play these days so there is no consequence to "playing badly." As much as I hate to admit it, that is pretty much the only logical reason I can come up with as well...which means, honestly, it's not really playing badly if there is no consequence for doing so. I think I am just going to have to finally give in and say...I'm in the wrong with my thinking here, because if there is no consequence to playing chaotically, it can't really be a "bad" way to play, can it?

 

Having said that, I do miss when the game was challenging...when the Hollows were feared, when running Frostfire was a living nightmare, when Debt crushed your leveling spree, where TF's weren't able to be played on easy mode +0, and was set to the max difficulty the game assigned to it. I guess our days have truly ended and our time is over, and if we want to continue to play, we just have to accept this is the way of things...instant gratification and facerolling mobs.

[MTeague]

20 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Now, if we could force everyone through a training regimen of Vahzilok missions in the teens, I'm sure that the problem would go away 😛

There's always the story arc where you get Vahzilok plague and are surrounded by flies buzzing around you.

Chicks dig that, pretty sure.  😱

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, MTeague said:

There's always the story arc where you get Vahzilok plague and are surrounded by flies buzzing around you.

Chicks dig that, pretty sure.  😱

Ah man, I forgot all about that mission! Didn't it come with a pretty nasty debuff as well and lots of random ambushes?

[MTeague]

9 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Ah man, I forgot all about that mission! Didn't it come with a pretty nasty debuff as well and lots of random ambushes?

Yep.  Vahz plague (the flies) comes with a real nasty -Recovery debuff.  You start sucking back blues bigtime.  Not sure if resistances are also debuffed.

[Nemu]

PLs and Farms and new people watching farming trollers spam nothing but immobs + epic blast and the general sentiment that every AT has somehow become a damage AT. The whole proc-monster meta contributes to that mentality as well because it gives new and old players who are not aware of their own power level the illusion that they are a damage AT right out of the gate. All ATs can do damage, but each combo matures or comes into their own at different levels and people lose sight of that and play the endgame toon they want to play without the skills nor the build to make it work prior to getting to that point..

 

It's one thing to lock a spawn down without waiting for a tank to gather them up, that's what controllers do and they do that on teams without a tank. On the other hand it's hilariously sad to watch controllers in their teens/tweens open with their mass immob and die, rez and repeat the process. How's that containment working for you? Must be reveling in that massive damage you are dealing by opening up with fire cages and then try to do DOUBLE damage with your flashfires slotted for damage huh?

[siolfir]

44 minutes ago, Nemu said:

On the other hand it's hilariously sad to watch controllers in their teens/tweens open with their mass immob and die, rez and repeat the process.

That's not sad, that's how they learn to let the mobs aggro on someone else first. I may have been known to let it happen when I see it if I'm the one running the taunt aura that I expect mobs to gather in. 

[Mercurias]

That’s an impressive number of words to say, “people aren’t playing the game the way I remember In 2005, and that means they should all adjust to how I like it.”

[Solarverse]

59 minutes ago, Mercurias said:

That’s an impressive number of words to say, “people aren’t playing the game the way I remember In 2005, and that means they should all adjust to how I like it.”

That's impressive that you read it that way. See what I did there? I can do that too.

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Ah man, I forgot all about that mission! Didn't it come with a pretty nasty debuff as well and lots of random ambushes?

Back on live, you used to have two or three missions between catching the plague and being sent after Patient Zero (and getting cured), so you'd be wheezing along for a while. Ghu, but that was painful. One of the reasons I stopped making Science-origin characters.

[Force Redux]

One reason I love my Grav/Dark is that I can reposition mind into tight clusters... Assuming they don't for too quickly 😉

[Doc Ranger]

Maybe if there was a higher difficulty option to have set bonuses turned off or Incarnates disabled etc? Some easy “in game” way for the team leader to go beyond +4/+8. 
 

If that isn’t feasible then maybe a setting to half your teams dmg output or double enemy damage/effects etc.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Ice_Warden

[Sovera]

Controllers want to feel useful and that means spamming their skills. The solution isn't to gripe but to gently insist on team chat to *not* spam mass immobilizes until the enemies are close. Some might not care, some will, but without communication no changes will happen for sure.

[Erydanus]

The tankers I've played with have all but 1 or 2 been utterly terrible. They play like brutes. They just run from mob to mob and take alphas and then run along. They don't hold aggro for more than 10 seconds. People in the support and damage backline are left mopping up crap like you wouldn't believe. Can you imagine an ITF at +4/x8 where the tanker is going up the hill to the giant robot area and they are THREE SPAWNS ahead of the majority of the team?

 

The no crash of nukes (which was a bad choice in my option because it really skewed the meta) means people are also used to just bombing constantly and playing in kind of an avalanche mode. Overall though, I think a lot of what's going on is people have to fend for themselves as best they can and if that means slapping an aoe immob on a rando group so I can put my own toggle debuff on it, I'll do it.

 

I don't love it but I have the option to solo if I want or put my own teams together. I may not like how the meta is right now but I like the game's back.

[Hogunn]

19 hours ago, Coyote said:

With IOs and how easy they are to get here, the game has gotten really easy.

Easy game, no need to learn how to play it right. You still win the missions without much difficulty.

When debt mattered, and learning how to survive Vahzilok was a practical necessity, and squishies pulling Paragon Protectors onto themselves by not letting the tank pull and bunch at a corner, players learned how to play more efficiently.

 

Now the game is easy enough that you can button-mash your way through content, so... fewer players are FORCED to learn. And then the playstyle of "just blast, baby" becomes more viable, and then it becomes more common. And players see teams playing like this, and learn that this is how to play.

 

Why is it accepted? Because many issues ago, playing like this really did lead to debt and to much slower progress. Now... it slows down kill speed, but given the lower level of threat in the game, it doesn't have the obvious impact of a wakie-wrapped clue-by-four to the face that will teach more players to play right. Maybe they don't notice the slower kill speed, and without the obvious "you did something wrong" of that "hospital or base" option menu in the middle of your screen, probably they don't realize that they're Doing It Wrong.

 

Now, if we could force everyone through a training regimen of Vahzilok missions in the teens, I'm sure that the problem would go away 😛

I remember playing during Issue 1 just after the game opened. I was a (very) lowbie fire/fire blaster running around exploring in KR. Somebody was running from a Vahz that they had aggro'd from up in the map. It was level 10 or 11. I was, WTF is that???? Anyway, it was over quick and after that I always had a hate on for them lol. Running against Vahz with a fire/fire blaster when this game opened was Suicide.

[Leogunner]

I see a lot of people shitting on AoE Immobilizes.

 

You know, you won't die from casting them if you duck behind a box or utilize a corner so only a few of the spawn can see you.

 

As for the prominence of "bad play", I say it depends on team make-up.  If you don't have a guy that wants to heard everyone around a corner with their body, then that means don't get someone killed trying.  If the Tanker/Brute themselves doesn't like to heard all the guys up because it wastes time to set up and there's enough AoE damage flooding out, things die anyway (the tank who thinks this way is the RIGHT kind of tank, IMO), kicking people or complaining about it is just wasted potential and wasted energy.

 

I'd say, why don't you try going with the flow a bit more?  I don't complain when the overbearing Tanker tells everyone to wait "Right. Here." while he heard and I also don't complain when a noob consistently uses AoE KB wrong.  I just get my handy dandy high-powerd Assassin's Strike and boop each target in the nards and move on.  If I'm a control AT and there's another control AT conflicting with what I'm doing, I just observe them and adapt my controls to handling hard targets or adds/ambushes.

 

Perhaps the problem is people want to turn their brains off and play their characters the same way every time they log on and join a team?  Never adapting, never compromising, always focusing on the prize without realizing the prizes we get are super easy to attain thus not really worth focusing on.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Erydanus said:

The tankers I've played with have all but 1 or 2 been utterly terrible. They play like brutes. They just run from mob to mob and take alphas and then run along. They don't hold aggro for more than 10 seconds. People in the support and damage backline are left mopping up crap like you wouldn't believe.

Well, I think you're exaggerating.  If you're not and the Tankers stick in a spawn for only 10 seconds and then move on, they are either very bad or are used to teams that can wipe spawns in around 10sec or less.  Rushing ahead to take the alpha is a product of the playstyle of min/maxers.  For a Tanker to be useful, they rush ahead to take the alpha not only so they do something useful but also to lead the team and keep their momentum as well as give the spawn the chance to cluster before AoEs have the opportunity to spread them in some way.

 

So what I see from those "1 or 2 utterly terrible" Tankers is that it needs to be communicated that the team is having trouble surviving when they leave (most Tankers get all drooly when you tell them you can't keep people on their feet, they will keep draging their face against whomever so long as it's getting between squishies and death) OR if you have enough support and control to contain the spawn after the Tanker rushes ahead, that just means the next spawn is likely clustered and ready.

 

My question to you is, do you not want to go fast?  That's usually the consensus on team tactics, and those Tankers were trying to facilitate that.  From what I can tell, you wanted to slow down.  If you just told them that, I feel he'd have hung around in the spawn for 15sec instead of 10 before rushing to the next spawn.

[Frosticus]

Game is simply too easy these days.

I don't see a setting that disables incarnate/IO's/etc being useful. People put in effort to get those things so they can use them.

 

Probably just need an overall nerf to a bunch of things. Way too much + def available, too much aoe damage. I dunno, I wouldn't want to be the guy implementing nerfs though haha. Fun game still, but I find I actively avoid full teams once above lvl 35 or so. It is just too easy. But a team of 4-5 set for 8 can still be pretty fun in the 40's. 

[Coyote]

3 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Fun game still, but I find I actively avoid full teams once above lvl 35 or so. It is just too easy. But a team of 4-5 set for 8 can still be pretty fun in the 40's.

 

Same. Full teams just smash everything. Smaller teams can still find a challenge. Or fight Rularuu with defense based characters 😄 

[Heraclea]

I am often on a tanker.  I am used to seeing entire spawns getting immobilized on a control heavy team.  My answer is to assume that the other players know what their characters' powers can do and what they're doing with them.  There is probably some advantage to the immobilize, some attached damage or debuff.  So I let them play the way they think best.  Not much different from knockback anyways, which I mind less than some as well. 

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, Erydanus said:

The tankers I've played with have all but 1 or 2 been utterly terrible. They play like brutes. They just run from mob to mob and take alphas and then run along.

Oh my God I hate this. That is the worst type of Tanking I have ever seen in this game. I myself have said to Tanks who do this, "Not sure why our so called Tank keeps running off and leaving us to clear these mobs that he is leaving behind, sure defeats the purpose of having a Tank..."

 

Tank says, "Kill faster then..."

 

So I said, "Kill faster? That's real golden, because as a Tank you are just doing some massive DPS up there all by yourself, right?"

 

Needless to say, he got a 1 star permanently above his head.

 

I have always though that mixing the villain classes with the hero classes was a very bad idea. And it is things like this that happen all too often that proves it to me.

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Solarverse

[oedipus_tex]

On a Dominator solo its often to your advantage to immobilize enemies apart from each other because that way you can melee them 1:1 and not worry about melee attacks from enemies close by.

 

Overall though I remember people always using the "cage" powers. In fact it used to be worse. A Fire or Plant troller would team up with me as an Ice Controller and then negate my Ice Slick with their immobilizes. Talk about feeling worthless.

 

FWIW I wouldn't complain one bit if the developers came in suddenly and said "Hey guys, now Judgement powers recharge x8 more slowly." I still don't know what the developers were thinking with that power. Other than maybe that the game was going free to play and they maybe assumed only 1 or 2 paid players per team would actually have the ability.