Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[laseracid]

Why should one way of game play effect the entire power? That's the dumbest excuse for nerfing powers ever if someone died in PvP guess what that happens go back and kill the player that killed you don't cry about it till the power set gets nerfed that's stupid.

[Coyote]

39 minutes ago, Mystic Fortune said:

That's great. You know what I'm not amused by? Unnecessary nerfs disguised as 'fixes'.

 

Who defines what's necessary and what's unnecessary?

Who defines what's a nerf and what's a fix?

Just opinions? We shouldn't use numbers?

Should we rely on opinion statements like "well enough" or "unnecessary" to determine what is a balance fix and what is a nerf?

In short... balance discussions are best governed by numbers. Opinions like "well enough", and "unnecessary" will necessarily take a back seat to arguments that refer to the power's statistics, reference comparable powers or builds, etcetera.

[Coyote]

2 minutes ago, laseracid said:

Why should one way of game play effect the entire power? That's the dumbest excuse for nerfing powers ever

 

You realize,  I hope, that the "one way of game play" is exactly the one way that the OP is discussing. Characters who don't have both Power Boost and Farsight wouldn't be affected. So this is a very specifically targeted discussion regarding one very specific build.

[MunkiLord]

3 hours ago, Mystic Fortune said:

I guess I was referring more to Power Boost. That said, Time Manipulation was a premium powerset. It was meant to be more powerful because it was pay for content. Just like Titan Weapons and Nature Affinity. These sets need to maintain the integrity of their original design. Not be changed after the fact just because a handful of people feel they are over performing nearly a decade after the game has risen from the ashes.

I don't think these nerfs need to happen. But the integrity of the original design really doesn't mean shit a decade later. What's best for the game today is all that matters. We both agree that there shouldn't be a nerf(though I also don't think it's a big deal if it happens).

[Mystic Fortune]

3 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I don't think these nerfs need to happen. But the integrity of the original design really doesn't mean shit a decade later. What's best for the game today is all that matters. We both agree that there shouldn't be a nerf(though I also don't think it's a big deal if it happens).

Actually it does. Otherwise, we're no better than the other servers out there that are throwing balance right out the window.

 

Neither of the powers in question are new. Time Manipulation was introduced in issue 21. Power Boost and Power Build Up had been available for support ATs since as early as Issue 3. Why now is this combination being deemed a problem?

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Mystic Fortune said:

I guess I was referring more to Power Boost. That said, Time Manipulation was a premium powerset. It was meant to be more powerful because it was pay for content. Just like Titan Weapons and Nature Affinity. These sets need to maintain the integrity of their original design. Not be changed after the fact just because a handful of people feel they are over performing nearly a decade after the game has risen from the ashes.

No. They need to be nerfed to be balanced with the rest of the game.

[Mystic Fortune]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

No. They need to be nerfed to be balanced with the rest of the game.

Well, you're wrong.

[Bopper]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

No. They need to be nerfed to be balanced with the rest of the game.

~Let's make it simple. Let's just get rid of all the P2W powersets that came out at the end of Live. We can achieve balance that way.~

 

~And/or, we can remove all +Special powers in the game. Convert them all to a fixed buff amount.~

 

With enough effort, we can make sure we achieve a game completely unrecognizable from what it was at sunset. Nostalgia be damned.

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Mystic Fortune said:

Neither of the powers in question are new. Time Manipulation was introduced in issue 21. Power Boost and Power Build Up had been available for support ATs since as early as Issue 3. Why now is this combination being deemed a problem?

A problem is a problem, it doesn’t matter how long it goes unaddressed.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

No. They need to be nerfed to be balanced with the rest of the game.

I bet you couldnt define what the games balance point is.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

A problem is a problem, it doesn’t matter how long it goes unaddressed.

Define problem and quantify that in game terms.

[Vanden]

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Define problem and quantify that in game terms.

I know this is a long thread, but you could've at least read the OP.

[nzer]

1 hour ago, Mystic Fortune said:

Well, you're wrong.

No, they're not. Even if you accept that a premium power set should be more powerful than a free power set, which you shouldn't, those power sets aren't premium anymore. It's not part of the "integrity of their original design" to be overturned relative to all the non-premium power sets. Quite the contrary, that's an affront to the integrity of their original design.

[Bopper]

If all they do to Time is tone down Farsight to 10% defense and tohit (defender scale, which currently is 12.5%), then I'd be fine with that. Probably everyone who plays Time would accept that (as a compromise, at least). Or if its duration is reduced to 90s duration instead of 120s, that way it can't always sync up with Clarion, that would be fine I suppose.

 

But if plans are to neuter the synergy of PB and long duration click buffs (i.e. Farsight), that would be greatly disappointing. Afterall, PB + Farsight isn't the real problem, it's Clarion + PB + Farsight that is. And there are ways to tone that down even, like putting the Ignore Buffs flag on PB so that its effects only add to +special instead of multiply (which is why doing Clarion then PB is more powerful than doing PB then Clarion, Clarion ignores buffs). 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Bopper

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

I know this is a long thread, but you could've at least read the OP.

I did, and I don't think you can do what I asked objectively beyond the usual "it shouldn't be able to do that" mantra.

 

You can say it has been defined, but it really hasnt and it then falls on personal opinion that it is a problem.

 

And nowhere has it been quantified how it's breaking the game which is what would in turn make it a problem.

 

Ie it's not a runaway set pick over others.

 

It does not lead to any scenario where it makes any top level team any faster or more durable than any other set or above what any AT on that team is currently.

[Frosticus]

55 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If all they do to Time is tone down Farsight to 10% defense and tohit (defender scale, which currently is 12.5%), then I'd be fine with that. Probably everyone who plays Time would accept that (as a compromise, at least). Or if its duration is reduced to 90s duration instead of 120s, that way it can't always sync up with Clarion, that would be fine I suppose.

 

But if plans are to neuter the synergy of PB and long duration click buffs (i.e. Farsight), that would be greatly disappointing. Afterall, PB + Farsight isn't the real problem, it's Clarion + PB + Farsight that is. And there are ways to tone that down even, like putting the Ignore Buffs flag on PB so that its effects only add to +special instead of multiply (which is why doing Clarion then PB is more powerful than doing PB then Clarion, Clarion ignores buffs). 

 

 

I guess my question is what makes time so special that it gets to have 2 mins of +special while so few other sets get more than 15 seconds of +special.

 

8x the value of +special...which is already one of the most powerful effects in the game. Time gets 8x as much out of it compared to just about every other buff/debuff set. I don't see that as "a fun bonus interaction" as others have put it. A bonus interaction/synergy would be like 1.5x if we were being objective. Not 8x duration.

 

Like if you were accelerated, you could extend the duration of +special. That is what a bonus interaction would be.

 

I don't use any power and expect to get more than 15s of +special w/ PB because that what powerboost says it will do. It is how the vast majority of powers work. I don't click aim and then scratch my head when it fails to give me 2 minutes of buff  because it says it will buff me for 10 seconds. And it does. Always.

 

But right now there are some powers that go way beyond and there are some powers that don't work, that probably should be altered to work.

 

 

 

 

[Bopper]

26 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I guess my question is what makes time so special that it gets to have 2 mins of +special while so few other sets get more than 15 seconds of +special.

Well...if Farsight only lasted 15 seconds, it would not be a very useful power.

 

27 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I don't use any power and expect to get more than 15s of +special w/ PB because that what powerboost says it will do. It is how the vast majority of powers work. I don't click aim and then scratch my head when it fails to give me 2 minutes of buff  because it says it will buff me for 10 seconds. And it does. Always.

The window of bonus for PB effects is 15 seconds, its effects don't last 15 seconds. Remember, it provides a boost to STRENGTH to powers, meaning it's a temporary enhancement. So if you cast a power, you get the effects of all its enhancements for the entirety of that power. There is no way around that. If you cast a power that has Hold, should the effects for Hold last only 15 seconds? No, the strength to Hold boosts whatever duration your hold by 75-100% (depending on AT), just as well as how the enhancements in the power do so. For as many of those powers you can use in that window, you get the benefits. As for Aim, it lasts 10 seconds, so you are out of luck for getting 15 seconds of boost out of a 10 second power. Enjoy the +75-100% enhancement to To Hit, though. 

 

As for Farsight and Grant Invisibility, they are 2 minute buff durations that are enhanced by Power Boost. So if they are cast within that 15 second window, the entire duration of their buff is boosted. That's great synergy. If you want to use that combo, make a Time character. If you don't, then don't complain if others do. Let's not pretend there isn't a tax. It is a VERY late combo to do (level 41 minimum), and you are stuck taking Soul Mastery (which is ok if you want resistance to Negative Energy or a small radius Soul Drain, I suppose). 

[Frosticus]

57 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Well...if Farsight only lasted 15 seconds, it would not be a very useful power.

 

The window of bonus for PB effects is 15 seconds, its effects don't last 15 seconds. Remember, it provides a boost to STRENGTH to powers, meaning it's a temporary enhancement. So if you cast a power, you get the effects of all its enhancements for the entirety of that power. There is no way around that. If you cast a power that has Hold, should the effects for Hold last only 15 seconds? No, the strength to Hold boosts whatever duration your hold by 75-100% (depending on AT), just as well as how the enhancements in the power do so. For as many of those powers you can use in that window, you get the benefits. As for Aim, it lasts 10 seconds, so you are out of luck for getting 15 seconds of boost out of a 10 second power. Enjoy the +75-100% enhancement to To Hit, though. 

 

As for Farsight and Grant Invisibility, they are 2 minute buff durations that are enhanced by Power Boost. So if they are cast within that 15 second window, the entire duration of their buff is boosted. That's great synergy. If you want to use that combo, make a Time character. If you don't, then don't complain if others do. Let's not pretend there isn't a tax. It is a VERY late combo to do (level 41 minimum), and you are stuck taking Soul Mastery (which is ok if you want resistance to Negative Energy or a small radius Soul Drain, I suppose). 

I certainly didn't say farsight should only last 15 seconds. Don't start being like Infinitum haha.

 

zero risk + large reward is a questionable design choice and usually hasn't held up against the test of time in this game.

 

fwiw I don't care about pb+grant invis. It isn't in the same league as farsight, it's single target, low value, and locks you into a pretty subpar pool for most builds (but not all). You'll realistically get it on maybe 4-5  people in a single powerboost if you focus on it and they don't move around much. Farsight can hit 255 if they like sardines. One and done.

 

A powerboosted hold, still has to hit and carries at least a tiny risk. It might not seem like much of a difference, but it is. Risk vs reward has always been something that at least holds a bit of water in terms of balancing in this game.

 

I'd change farsight to a wide area toggle. There isn't any compelling reason it should be a click other than that's what it was implement as. As a click it only exasperates the +special issue by being immune to mez. That isn't a luxury that any other buff/debuff set has for any self defense power as they all either suppress or detoggle -(but we've seen time is afforded a lot of luxuries). The exception being ff gen, which carries its own unique limitations (and isn't affected by +special either).

 

Toggle would let it fully benefit from powerboost still and you'll do more dps. who doesn't love dps?

 

I guess we'll see what cpt powerhouse eventually does to it as he said it has been on their radar for awhile. I think he is aware of what other sets have access to and he is definitely wary of def enhancement in +special.

[Infinitum]

27 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I certainly didn't say farsight should only last 15 seconds. Don't start being like Infinitum haha.

Its ok man I know deep down inside you only wish you could be like me and enjoy the game as it is without getting your feelings hurt because something doesn't meet your distorted criteria of what the game should be. 

 

I honestly feel sorry for you, but if you would like to hang out with me so joy could rub off on you, hey I'll let ya. 😊

 

You might even learn a thing or two.

 

36 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Farsight can hit 255 if they like sardines. One and done.

Yeah because incarnate teams are sitting still for that long.

[Bopper]

22 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I'd change farsight to a wide area toggle. There isn't any compelling reason it should be a click other than that's what it was implement as

The one benefit of a toggle would be to no longer as everyone to gather for Farsight. I stopped asking. They can stay close or go it alone.

 

There is no compelling argument for any power to be a click versus a toggle. It's all flavor. It's not like they are equivalents, however. If you die, then rez, you can't just toggle Farsight back on, it's still on cooldown. And like I said, if teammates aren't around when you buff, they're stuck waiting 2 minutes for a reapply. So there are certainly taxes, even if it's relatively minor.

 

26 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I certainly didn't say farsight should only last 15 seconds. Don't start being like Infinitum haha

You didnt, but you proposed a mechanic that is impossible to do in the game. Farsight can't lose effectiveness after cast. Once its cast, it checks the numbers and applies the buff and duration. There's no going back. 

 

It's not like there aren't other long duration buffs in this game. Cold Domination can provide 15% base defense to each ally for 240s, plus an extra 25% resistance to cold and 10% resistance to fire along with it. They aren't affected by power boost and you can't apply it to yourself, but it is twice the duration, and after enhancement the PB Farsight is only 8.4% more defense. Not insignificant, but it's not game breaking.

 

As for the to hit, do we really care? It's so easy to reach 95% to hit against +3s, even without tactics. Even my proc builds that lack accuracy in relation to traditional builds can still hit the 95% cap. 

40 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

As a click it only exasperates the +special issue by being immune to mez

Wait until Faraday Cage arrives

43 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Toggle would let it fully benefit from powerboost still and you'll do more dps. who doesn't love dps?

How so with the DPS?

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:How so with the DPS?

Because you wouldn’t have the animation time.

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

So if they are cast within that 15 second window, the entire duration of their buff is boosted. That's great synergy. If you want to use that combo, make a Time character. If you don't, then don't complain if others do.

And that's the crux of it, it's not meeting their predisposition for what the game should be like.

 

There is nothing broken about this.  Only in their vision of what it should be.

 

It doesn't lead people to choose time by a runaway margin, or even in first place in most categories.

 

It doesn't lead to run away survivability because most teams already have it.

 

Where exactly is it broken aside from the idea that it is?

[Bopper]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Because you wouldn’t have the animation time.

Ahhh I see, as a defender I probably won't notice the extra DPS I gain from not having to recast Farsight every 2 minutes. But to that same argument, not interrupting team DPS to ask for a gather is definitely significant. So I guess I can argue that's another tax Farsight technically has. Small, but little things add up.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

And that's the crux of it, it's not meeting their predisposition for what the game should be like.

Those feelings dont necessarily bother me. It's fine to have those feelings. However I disagree that all the powers have to work similarly for balance. We have toggles that are powerful. We have single target buffs that are powerful. Why can't we have an AoE buff that is powerful? It's different, that's good (not boring). And yes, it creates synergy with a single (type) of power in the game that makes it super strong. But are we nerfing Farsight because of how it works with an epic power, or is it being nerfed because it is a slightly better version of Cold Shields (I could use other examples) in a team setting? Or is it because it also buffs the caster that it needs the nerf? Do we need to nerf Fade too? It is only available to controllers, but it is just as strong of defense as Farsight while also capable of being Perma, while providing resistance to very useful types (S/L/NE/Psi). Plus the set comes with additional defense and resistance that Time does not.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Bopper

[Frosticus]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

The one benefit of a toggle would be to no longer as everyone to gather for Farsight. I stopped asking. They can stay close or go it alone.

True none of my melee characters give a hoot about "gather for" buffs. My squishies still value most of them though.

 

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You didnt, but you proposed a mechanic that is impossible to do in the game. Farsight can't lose effectiveness after cast. Once its cast, it checks the numbers and applies the buff and duration. There's no going back. 

 

It's not like there aren't other long duration buffs in this game. Cold Domination can provide 15% base defense to each ally for 240s, plus an extra 25% resistance to cold and 10% resistance to fire along with it. They aren't affected by power boost and you can't apply it to yourself, but it is twice the duration, and after enhancement the PB Farsight is only 8.4% more defense. Not insignificant, but it's not game breaking.

I dunno, I'm sure you could turn it into a bunch of pseudo pets that stick to your allies or something. There are definitely powers that last awhile that only receive +special for the duration of PB.

 

That sounds silly, but there isn't a lot of indication that something like Lightning storm will behave different than farsight.

 

I guess it just seems strange to me that time can buff about as well as any set AND buff itself too. That is a very exclusive ability. I can't tell you how many times I've wished my stormies could cast o2 on myself. Maybe an alternate direction is to let squishes cast most of their buffs on themselves even it is required some kind of invisible target to allow st buffs to bounce back to the originator. That would even up most sets significantly.

23 minutes ago, Bopper said:

As for the to hit, do we really care? It's so easy to reach 95% to hit against +3s, even without tactics. Even my proc builds that lack accuracy in relation to traditional builds can still hit the 95% cap. 

 

 

No one really talks about the tohit, or the perception. I have tactics on every single build for tohit to cut down on acc slotting, and because blindness, while rare, wipes teams. I think those values are of less value at end game, but very valuable in the 18-45 range.

 

22 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Wait until Faraday Cage arrives

ya faraday is a neat power. That will be a pretty sturdy set if a bit slow at killing things.

 

25 minutes ago, Bopper said:

How so with the DPS?

It's been mentioned a couple times that casting pb+farsight eats up a not-insignificant amount of time and can get bothersome

Definitely cuts into dps if you are recasting it while everyone is fighting the spawn (so you can tag most of them).

 

While nowhere near as time consuming as the Fade trick was it is about 3% of your time.