Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for January 6, 2020

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Yeah, I don't want to get too off-topic in the tanker thread, but you can mostly see the minds of the original designers, where higher caps went to ATs that either a) were supposed to deal a lot of damabe or b) had a way to skew damage caps in their favor (e.g. Containment damage is a separate number, so it would be separately subject to the cap).  It feels to me Khelds were kinda forgotten... a lot.

 

If I had to hazard a guess: they couldn't figure out (or afford the time) to give khelds caps based on form, and they were very afraid of an 85% resist blasty-blast.

Well, Kheldians are a Tank role AT, and we're looking at balancing ATs in the tank role, so I think it's actually reasonably on topic.  Still, I'm not 100% certain about it.  Maybe it's ok as is.

[Replacement]

6 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Well, Kheldians are a Tank role AT, and we're looking at balancing ATs in the tank role, so I think it's actually reasonably on topic.  Still, I'm not 100% certain about it.  Maybe it's ok as is.

They definitely need some tweaks.  If it's not to caps, then it's something like containment to situationally rise above those caps.

 

...But then, I'll never actually play one seriously as long as I have to override my custom character with the exact same squid as everyone else.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Replacement

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

the exact same squid as everyone else.

They are at least color customizable.

[SwitchFade]

26 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Well, Kheldians are a Tank role AT, and we're looking at balancing ATs in the tank role, so I think it's actually reasonably on topic.  Still, I'm not 100% certain about it.  Maybe it's ok as is.

They are not a tank role AT.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, SwitchFade said:

They are not a tank role AT.

According to the character creation screen they are.

[siolfir]

 

14 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

15 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

They are not a tank role AT.

 

According to the character creation screen they are.

 

And according to the @Captain Powerhouse their tanking ability is something to be looked at...

 

[Wavicle]

So, according to CP they are.

[Azra]

I'd still like to choose my taunt type.  'Hur!' or 'Ahhh..!'  'Ha, hah...'  'AARGHGHGHGHGHGHGH!' (Amazonian scream.)

 

Sick bucket sound vs the grand standing.  I just find the 'Hurr' one annoying.

 

Personally, I don't like the 'Hur' one.  It seems prevalent on my tanks and brutes.  I'd much prefer to pick the 'Ahhh' if it was an option.

 

/taunt 1 or /taunt 2 would be nice...as an option.

 

A z r a.

[Sovera]

17 hours ago, skoryy said:

New discussion for someplace else: Why aren't stalkers more popular even after i23.  

Lack of agro aura for me. I'm playing a Stalker and enjoying it. But mobs peeling away to wander around the map, have a sammich and a cup of joe and return five minutes later gets old and fast.

[Mikewho]

16 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Lack of agro aura for me. I'm playing a Stalker and enjoying it. But mobs peeling away to wander around the map, have a sammich and a cup of joe and return five minutes later gets old and fast.

Agreed. I can't play any melee character that doesn't have at least some taunt aura. Even a weak taunt aura is fine.

[Sovera]

9 hours ago, Mikewho said:

Agreed. I can't play any melee character that doesn't have at least some taunt aura. Even a weak taunt aura is fine.

I was playing with a friend yesterday, I'm 50 and geared to the gills on my Stalker and she was on her Brute, level 46. When we play together I'm usually on my Scrapper so of course I pump the difficulty to +2x8 as I usually do when we play together... only to have her faceplant over and over until I just stealthed the mission to lower it to x4. Because... I'm on the Stalker, and even opening with AoEs and taking chunks of HP the second she jumped in with agro auras and punchvokes she got all the attention 😄

 

I get it, it's how it is meant to be, and were she fully leveled and geared up we would have been an unholy terror with mobs clustered around her which they do not for me, but it was an aaaargh moment.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Sovera

[Galaxy Brain]

The more I think of it, the more I think that the Sentinel Inherit would have had a better home on Tankers, coupled with 90% of the new changes seen currently.

90% being the AoE changes, proc for taunt, and a damage scale of 0.9, not 0.95. Instead, have all their attacks deal a non-stacking (from same caster?) -5% res and -2.5% def like Sentinels, and then have Tanker Taunt specifically apply the "Mark" to the selected target only where they have the -20% from Bruising / etc. Sentinel's inherit would need to be changed, but that is on the table anyways.

[BlackHearted]

I just had a really annoying time in game trying to hold agro off a tank on my brute... my brute is very much set up to out tank most tanks and after some research I’ve come to learn this is an intentional change due to this patch making their taunt 10% higher scale... perhaps I am missing something but to me this seems like a very bad idea from a game play perspective... the effect you end up with in game play is that a brute can NOT pull an npc off of a tank... even if both they and the tank want that to happen.. I also see no upside for the tanks; it doesn’t affect them who is being swung at so being able to hold agro over a brute even when they taunt your target has no upside as a tank... also mainly it’s just really upsetting to have this change make a brute I spent billions and months on setting up to tank all the sudden not be able to control agro the way I have been able to sense issue 7.  Would greatly appreciate any insight as to why this was done/if it may be changed back... my main character revolves around the idea of tanking and I am really upset at the idea of having to reroll my main b/c tanks got better taunting. Thanks for any reply’s .

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, BlackHearted said:

I just had a really annoying time in game trying to hold agro off a tank on my brute... my brute is very much set up to out tank most tanks and after some research I’ve come to learn this is an intentional change due to this patch making their taunt 10% higher scale... perhaps I am missing something but to me this seems like a very bad idea from a game play perspective... the effect you end up with in game play is that a brute can NOT pull an npc off of a tank... even if both they and the tank want that to happen.. I also see no upside for the tanks; it doesn’t affect them who is being swung at so being able to hold agro over a brute even when they taunt your target has no upside as a tank... also mainly it’s just really upsetting to have this change make a brute I spent billions and months on setting up to tank all the sudden not be able to control agro the way I have been able to sense issue 7.  Would greatly appreciate any insight as to why this was done/if it may be changed back... my main character revolves around the idea of tanking and I am really upset at the idea of having to reroll my main b/c tanks got better taunting. Thanks for any reply’s .

Strange, this post is almost identical text and vernacular to another post from another screen name "Kokonatsu."

 

Are you posting on multiple accounts?

 

Also, brutes should not have as high aggro management as tanks. But, aggro pulling doesn't quite work like this, it's about mag and duration, so pulling aggro off a tank who initiated taunt is going to be hard for anyone. Try initiating taunt first, usually the tank can't pull aggro off you. The taunt issues had nothing to do with tanks vs brutes, it was an aura bug.

[BlackHearted]

11 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Strange, this post is almost identical text and vernacular to another post from another screen name "Kokonatsu."

 

Are you posting on multiple accounts?

 

Also, brutes should not have as high aggro management as tanks. But, aggro pulling doesn't quite work like this, it's about mag and duration, so pulling aggro off a tank who initiated taunt is going to be hard for anyone. Try initiating taunt first, usually the tank can't pull aggro off you. The taunt issues had nothing to do with tanks vs brutes, it was an aura bug.

Heh 😅I totally didn’t realize my friends forum account was still logged in on my chrome browser.... went back and deleted that.... sorta posted there as a knee jerk reaction....thanks for pointing that out..

 

So if I’m miss understanding something that’d be great .... but I don’t agree with the idea that brutes just shouldn’t have as high an agro management potential as tanks... they always did in the past and it was fine ... I don’t see a reason to change that.... it’s nice to have the option to let either person be “lead tank” when on a team with a tank and a brute... having it set up where you are forced to let the tank AT hold agro when on a team with both brute and tank seems really counter intuitive to me... what if the tank is a lowbie who is SKd... seems like I shouldn’t have a hard time pulling agro off them on my 50 IOd brute who is set up to handle the damage.

 

I never had trouble keeping agro before and now if there’s a tank around npcs just ignore my brute... doesn’t seem to mater if I taunt first or more or do extra dmg and taunt... just get totally ignored for agro ... especially with AVs.. I played on red side mainly back before AT proliferation and I really want to be able to lead tank unconditionally on my brute without having to succeed that position to /any/ tank that joins a team. 

 

Am I  totally miss understanding something ? It seems to me this 10% change to tank scaleing of taunt is completely unnecessary... what good does it do to let tanks deny agro to brutes? It’s not doing anything good for brutes that i can see... seems like all down side with no upside.

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, BlackHearted said:

Heh 😅I totally didn’t realize my friends forum account was still logged in on my chrome browser.... went back and deleted that.... sorta posted there as a knee jerk reaction....thanks for pointing that out..

 

So if I’m miss understanding something that’d be great .... but I don’t agree with the idea that brutes just shouldn’t have as high an agro management potential as tanks... they always did in the past and it was fine ... I don’t see a reason to change that.... it’s nice to have the option to let either person be “lead tank” when on a team with a tank and a brute... having it set up where you are forced to let the tank AT hold agro when on a team with both brute and tank seems really counter intuitive to me... what if the tank is a lowbie who is SKd... seems like I shouldn’t have a hard time pulling agro off them on my 50 IOd brute who is set up to handle the damage.

 

I never had trouble keeping agro before and now if there’s a tank around npcs just ignore my brute... doesn’t seem to mater if I taunt first or more or do extra dmg and taunt... just get totally ignored for agro ... especially with AVs.. I played on red side mainly back before AT proliferation and I really want to be able to lead tank unconditionally on my brute without having to succeed that position to /any/ tank that joins a team. 

 

Am I  totally miss understanding something ? It seems to me this 10% change to tank scaleing of taunt is completely unnecessary... what good does it do to let tanks deny agro to brutes? It’s not doing anything good for brutes that i can see... seems like all down side with no upside.

Tankers should always be able to out aggro Brutes. If a Tanker and a Brute are on the same team, the Tanker is the Tank and the Brute is a Melee DPS.

The changes to how Fury works make it so that the Brute is not going to have any problem doing damage even in this situation.

If you are a Brute, and there is a Tanker on your team, you DON'T NEED to pull aggro from them, THEY are the tank.

That said, in that situation, you should do what good Tankers have always done when on a team with another Tanker: SPREAD OUT so you can cover more area.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Wavicle

[Haijinx]

On 1/21/2020 at 5:55 PM, Replacement said:

They definitely need some tweaks.  If it's not to caps, then it's something like containment to situationally rise above those caps.

 

...But then, I'll never actually play one seriously as long as I have to override my custom character with the exact same squid as everyone else.

Dwarf form needs a taunt aura.

 

"Tanks" have taunt auras. 

 

 

[Haijinx]

33 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Tanks should always be able to out aggro Brutes. If a Tanker and a Brute are on the same team, the Tanker is the Tank and the Brute is a Melee DPS.

The changes to how Fury works make it so that the Brute is not going to have any problem doing damage even in this situation.

If you are a Brute, and there is a Tanker on your team, you DON'T NEED to pull aggro from them, THEY are the tank.

That said, in that situation, you should do what good Tankers have always done when on a team with another Tanker: SPREAD OUT so you can cover more area.

Tanker and Tank should not be used interchangeably when discussing Brutes.

 

Tankers are tanks

Brutes are also tanks 

 

 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Dwarf form needs a taunt aura.

 

"Tanks" have taunt auras. 

 

 

This is how I felt too, and I still think it's a good idea but there's a problem.

It involves the reason why Black Dwarf Mire does not Taunt.

 

The intention, I believe, is for the Warshade to be able to switch to Dwarf and use Mire WITHOUT pulling aggro.

So that means a Dwarf taunt aura would have to be a TOGGLE that you can use IN ADDITION to Dwarf.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Tanker and Tank should not be used interchangeably when discussing Brutes.

 

Tankers are tanks

Brutes are also tanks 

 

 

I was trying to be specific.  I'll fix it.

There, fixed.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Wavicle

[Haijinx]

25 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

This is how I felt too, and I still think it's a good idea but there's a problem.

It involves the reason why Black Dwarf Mire does not Taunt.

 

The intention, I believe, is for the Warshade to be able to switch to Dwarf and use Mire WITHOUT pulling aggro.

So that means a Dwarf taunt aura would have to be a TOGGLE that you can use IN ADDITION to Dwarf.

What's the radius on mire?

 

Taunt auras are only 8 feet I think. 

 

Also, I'm not so sure allowing people to double soul drain without getting aggro was actually an intentional design decision. 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

What's the radius on mire?

 

Taunt auras are only 8 feet I think. 

 

Also, I'm not so sure allowing people to double soul drain without getting aggro was actually an intentional design decision. 

I think it may have been. When they added punchvoke to dwarf attacks they gave it to the PB Dwarf aoe but not Black Dwarf mire.

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I think it may have been. When they added punchvoke to dwarf attacks they gave it to the PB Dwarf aoe but not Black Dwarf mire.

hmmm.  While I'd prefer the Taunt Aurua just be the Dwarf Toggle personally.

 

Alternatively you could link it to the Heal Power.  

 

Hit heal, have a temp Taunt Aura.

 

Or even just add it to the taunt.  

 

[BlackHearted]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Tankers should always be able to out aggro Brutes. If a Tanker and a Brute are on the same team, the Tanker is the Tank and the Brute is a Melee DPS.

The changes to how Fury works make it so that the Brute is not going to have any problem doing damage even in this situation.

If you are a Brute, and there is a Tanker on your team, you DON'T NEED to pull aggro from them, THEY are the tank.

That said, in that situation, you should do what good Tankers have always done when on a team with another Tanker: SPREAD OUT so you can cover more area.

Clearly YOU have never needed to pull agro off a tank as a brute, but for ME it’s a pretty regular occurrence that I’m teamed with a tank(AT) that needs someone else to manage agro for them because they’re still leveling or learning.  

 

And is there a /reason/ you are saying tanks should be able to out agro brutes? Because it never was that way before and it was working just fine when both ATs were teamed together.  I keep hearing people say it /should/ be this way but like as an opinion .....why should it be that way? More specifically why should it be /changed/ to be this way ?

 

Im just trying to understand these changes and if they’re permanent because it means I have to reroll my main character as a tank AT now and figure out what to do instead of regen sense tanks don’t have regen..

 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

Clearly YOU have never needed to pull agro off a tank as a brute, but for ME it’s a pretty regular occurrence that I’m teamed with a tank(AT) that needs someone else to manage agro for them because they’re still leveling or learning.  

 

And is there a /reason/ you are saying tanks should be able to out agro brutes? Because it never was that way before and it was working just fine when both ATs were teamed together.  I keep hearing people say it /should/ be this way but like as an opinion .....why should it be that way? More specifically why should it be /changed/ to be this way ?

 

Im just trying to understand these changes and if they’re permanent because it means I have to reroll my main character as a tank AT now and figure out what to do instead of regen sense tanks don’t have regen..

 

If you are playing a 50 Brute there is no way you should be having trouble with lowbie tankers pulling aggro from you unless they are taunting and you are not.

Either way, your idea that you need to reroll is ridiculous hyperbole.  Brutes tank just fine.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Wavicle