Patch Notes for January 16th, 2020 - Issue 26, Page 4 (Release Candidate 2)

[quixoteprog]

40 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Yes. That's why the bullet point right above it states "All Brute and Tanker Epic pools now use ranged damage modifiers." (emphasis mine)

That's explains it then I guess. I was just unaware and had never seen it mentioned before that all epic pool powers used the same modifier regardless of whether it matches the type of attack or not. That just seemed strange to me.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by quixoteprog

[SwitchFade]

11 hours ago, Chronicler J said:

Bruising change is disappointing. Looks like feedback on it is being brushed aside, too. Thought we escaped this kind of development. 

Bruising change is inspiring. Looks like the raw facts that it is a terrible mechanic and meaningless finally saw the light of day. I'm glad we have a great Dev team.

Edited January 17, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Jimmy]

3 hours ago, Biosphere said:

Thanks for the reply Jimmy. It's a mistake I read taunt set enhancements instead of regular.

 

But can you also help explain just how the global proc would work for something like Chilling Embrace? Because I went on the test server and tested an Ice tank with Embrace next to a Scrapper using Invincibility and the Scrapper's aura kept threat. But then when I tried it again by itself Embrace seemed to keep threat.

 

Is there something I did wrong or how does the proc work for the aura? Is it automatic because it's auto hit?  And last question, is it possible we can have a list of powers the Controller like buff numbers happened to? I could only find Leadership being similar and I wanted to understand how much that change affected the Tanker.

Had a quick chat with Powerhouse about this. We believe this is just a quirk of when each taunt was hitting the targets in your specific test, but we'll do some further investigation to confirm. In real terms though, the Tanker will easily out-taunt the Scrapper in actual gamepaly as this is just one of their many layers of taunting.

54 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Bruising change is inspiring. Looks like the raw facts that it is a terrible mechanic and meaningless finally saw the light of day.

Honestly as someone who wasn't involved at all in this specific change I have to agree. Tankers are meant to be crowd control and aggro management, not a force multiplier like Defenders are.

[Auroxis]

Yes @Jimmy because having Bruising gives you Defender levels of force multiplication? It's not even Controller/Corruptor/SoA/MM levels, and those classes' -res powers stack from other casters.

 

And if you wanna keep the Tanker different from a ranged support class, how are you ok with the fact that my tests (and others) showed the Tanker getting Brute levels of damage?

[Jimmy]

8 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Yes @Jimmy because having Bruising gives you Defender levels of force multiplication? It's not even Controller/Corruptor/SoA/MM levels, and those classes' -res powers stack from other casters.

 

And if you wanna keep the Tanker different from a ranged support class, how are you ok with the fact that my tests (and others) showed the Tanker getting Brute levels of damage?

I didn't say it gave Defender levels of force multiplication did I? 🙂 And yes, under certain circumstances Tankers will out-damage Brutes, just as Corruptors can out-damage Blasters in certain circumstances.

 

Regardless, as I said before:

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

It's been discussed extensively in the feedback threads. Just because the decision is one you disagree with it doesn't mean the feedback is being ignored. It's all been read and it has all been considered, but there comes a time when the changes need to be pushed live and left to sit for a while before deciding if any further work is required.

It's best to leave it there for now. Let the changes settle in on live for a while and see how the playerbase reacts to the changes.

[Auroxis]

16 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

I didn't say it gave Defender levels of force multiplication did I? 🙂 And yes, under certain circumstances Tankers will out-damage Brutes, just as Corruptors can out-damage Blasters in certain circumstances.

The Tanker/Brute comparisons were done comparing identical melee/armor set configurations, the Corruptor/Blaster analogy doesn't quite work to the same effect. Also there's a reason Blasters got a buff.

 

[Chris24601]

25 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

It's best to leave it there for now. Let the changes settle in on live for a while and see how the playerbase reacts to the changes.

I don’t gamble, but in this case I’d almost be willing to bet that most of the tank players won’t even notice that bruise is missing amidst the general damage tweaks.

[Captain Citadel]

40 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

I don’t gamble, but in this case I’d almost be willing to bet that most of the tank players won’t even notice that bruise is missing amidst the general damage tweaks.

Only reason they'll not notice it's missing is because the amount of -Res it provides is so low that it can only really be appreciated while soloing, but I think an opportunity was missed to augment the team support capability of Tankers by buffing Bruising. Why shouldn't they be a force multiplier like Defenders if Tankers and Defenders are both designed for team play?

[Vanden]

15 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Why shouldn't they be a force multiplier like Defenders if Tankers and Defenders are both designed for team play?

Because that's not the kind of team support Tankers are meant to supply.

[Number Six]

10 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Only reason they'll not notice it's missing is because the amount of -Res it provides is so low that it can only really be appreciated while soloing, but I think an opportunity was missed to augment the team support capability of Tankers by buffing Bruising. Why shouldn't they be a force multiplier like Defenders if Tankers and Defenders are both designed for team play?

An argument can be made about magnitude, but in general ATs with powersets dedicated to personal defense don't get force multiplier capability "out of the box" -- without having to dip into things like the leadership pool. IMO that's a good thing -- no one AT should get to do all of the things. Speaking mostly about 1-49 here since Incarnate powers seriously homogenize things.

 

Sentinels are in the same boat with Opportunity, but IIRC PH wants to redesign their inherent anyway so I wouldn't count on it staying like it is.

[aethereal]

One thing that I never saw discussion on during the focused feedback threads: are ranged attacks in the main powersets (not epics) of Brute and Tankers now doing more damage on test than they are on live?  Like the claws and staff and kin melee and spines attacks?  Or do they use melee damage scale despite being ranged?

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, aethereal said:

One thing that I never saw discussion on during the focused feedback threads: are ranged attacks in the main powersets (not epics) of Brute and Tankers now doing more damage on test than they are on live?  Like the claws and staff and kin melee and spines attacks?  Or do they use melee damage scale despite being ranged?

They always used the melee scale and will continue to use the melee scale.

[aethereal]

Just now, Vanden said:

They always used the melee scale and will continue to use the melee scale.

Thanks.  The names of the scales feels like it's a misnomer.  When does the difference between ranged and melee actually cleave to the damage scale used?  Just in (non-epic) pool powers?  By powerset rather than individual powers?

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

In real terms though, the Tanker will easily out-taunt the Scrapper in actual gamepaly as this is just one of their many layers of taunting.

Nail on the head. Once the damage, secondary effects and Taunt magnification kick in (along with that 10% taunt mag increase), you shouldn’t have any issues unless something is broken.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Auroxis said:

 

And if you wanna keep the Tanker different from a ranged support class, how are you ok with the fact that my tests (and others) showed the Tanker getting Brute levels of damage?

Were these the tests using Stacked Rage on a Tanker compared to a Brute at 50% Fury in the first patch?

 

 

After your testing, Sir Myshkin and several others, we all know that Super Strength is broken and the epitome of outliers for this concept. And thank you very much for that, as now, we’re likely to get a rebalanced Super Strength (without those ridiculous side-effects) once the Captain gets around to power set passes in the future.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Myrmidon

[siolfir]

13 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Thanks.  The names of the scales feels like it's a misnomer.  When does the difference between ranged and melee actually cleave to the damage scale used?  Just in (non-epic) pool powers?  By powerset rather than individual powers?

Pool powers, basically. I was initially confused on this myself and thought that some Tanker powers were going to remain at the same damage as on live while others in the set would be buffed, but I was corrected on it in the first feedback thread.

 

The "melee damage" modifier applies to all damage powers in "Melee Damage" sets - which means Brute, Scrapper, and Stalker primaries and Tanker secondaries, even if the power is a ranged power.

The "ranged damage" modifier applies to all damage powers in "Ranged Damage" sets - which would be Blaster, Corruptor, and Sentinel primaries and Defender secondaries, even if the power is a melee/PBAoE power.

 

Other set types (manipulation, assault, etc) may vary.

[Parabola]

38 minutes ago, Number Six said:

Speaking mostly about 1-49 here since Incarnate powers seriously homogenize things.

Any chance of this being looked at somewhere down the line? ☺️

[Auroxis]

30 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Were these the tests using Stacked Rage on a Tanker compared to a Brute at 50% Fury in the first patch?

 

 

After your testing, Sir Myshkin and several others, we all know that Super Strength is broken and the epitome of outliers for this concept. And thank you very much for that, as now, we’re likely to get a rebalanced Super Strength (without those ridiculous side-effects) once the Captain gets around to power set passes in the future.

See, this is why I didn't wanna give feedback again, because there are always people who ignore 90% of my and other people's work and cherry-pick whatever suits their argument.

 

I calculated and gave damage comparisons at multiple damage buff and fury breakpoints which showed Tankers reaching Brute levels of damage when moderate damage buffs are in play(Rage is not the only source), created new builds and ran tests (With TW, Staff, and SS, leadership, weaken resolve, pyre mastery, soul mastery) both with pylons and regular gameplay. That you choose to take all that and boil it down to "you did nothing but show SS needs a nerf" is downright insulting to the hours upon hours of work i invested into build-making, setup, tests and documentation.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Auroxis

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

See, this is why I didn't wanna give feedback again, because there are always people who ignore 90% of my and other people's work and cherry-pick whatever suits their argument.

 

I calculated and gave damage comparisons at multiple rage and fury breakpoints which showed Tankers reaching Brute levels of damage when moderate damage buffs are in play(Rage is not the only source), created new builds and ran tests (With TW, Staff, and SS, leadership, pyre mastery, soul mastery) both with pylons and regular gameplay. That you choose to take all that and boil it down to "you did nothing but show SS needs a nerf" is downright insulting to the hours upon hours of work i invested into build-making, setup, tests and documentation.

It honestly seems like you're after validation at least as much as you're after game balance, if not more.

[Biosphere]

Auroxis has a point. I hardly think he's seeking validation. These changes can go live, but the obvious concern is that Tanker will just be an upgraded Brute. As has been suggested we can see how players will react to this, I just think that with all that analysis it deserves some recognition. 

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

Auroxis has a point. I hardly think he's seeking validation. These changes can go live, but the obvious concern is that Tanker will just be an upgraded Brute. As has been suggested we can see how players will react to this, I just think that with all that analysis it deserves some recognition. 

He has a point in the general sense that a Tanker shouldn't outdamage a Brute, but his numbers absolutely do not show Tankers outdamaging Brutes in the general case. It makes more sense to me that the reason he won't let it go is because he feels like he isn't being heard, rather than because the idea of a Tanker outdamaging a Brute in any scenario is just an unacceptable development.

[Auroxis]

16 minutes ago, Vanden said:

He has a point in the general sense that a Tanker shouldn't outdamage a Brute, but his numbers absolutely do not show Tankers outdamaging Brutes in the general case.

The general case being what? No damage buffs at all and AoE reach and target cap being irrelevant?

Quote

It makes more sense to me that the reason he won't let it go is because he feels like he isn't being heard, rather than because the idea of a Tanker outdamaging a Brute in any scenario is just an unacceptable development.

I already stated why it's hard for me to let go, I wanted offensive support buffs for a long time (I've been vocal about my reasoning long before the patch) and instead i got a support nerf, a useless must-pick t1 power and a tanker that more closely resembles a brute in function.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Auroxis

[Biosphere]

I think what you're missing Vanden, as well as others, that the reason everyone is so sore about bruising being removed among the other changes is that it removes any uniqueness to a Tanker and just makes it a sturdy Brute without Fury. It speaks to the philosophy of future design in that line. 

 

Those who advocate for bruising would rather see the Tanker as much more than a sack of health that deals damage. Tankers could be effective shields that suppliment the team. Imagine not only the tier 1 does minus res, but perhaps the tier 9 does -special. Examples like this help to differentiate the archetype.

 

For the longest time I remember people debating whether having a Tanker or a Brute was better. They're both tanks they'd say, what's it matter? Brute does more damage.

 

With the design I talked about you'd have that choice to make. A Brute wouldn't do what a Tanker could.

 

This is why Auroxis and others are so upset. We don't want just a difference in name. We want a difference in mechanics. Which you can argue very well. They both do separate amounts of damage, their threat doesn't function the same, one has weaker shield numbers etc. But the spirit of what bruising's creation could have entailed was a clear and distinct choice for players when it came to picking the tank role.

[Vanden]

30 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

Those who advocate for bruising would rather see the Tanker as much more than a sack of health that deals damage. Tankers could be effective shields that suppliment the team. Imagine not only the tier 1 does minus res, but perhaps the tier 9 does -special. Examples like this help to differentiate the archetype.

A sack of health with attacks is what the Tanker has always been, and what it's always been meant to be. I'm not unsympathetic to the people who like it*, but Bruising has never fit what the Tanker is supposed to be about, and it was never meant to be a core part of the Tanker identity. It was a consolation prize for being forced to take the T1 attack, lipstick on a pig, and some people just got too attached to the lipstick.

 

* I even suggested that the T1 and T2 swap from the first iteration of the changes be kept, and Bruising left on the original T1 powers so players that like it could still have it.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Vanden

[Auroxis]

Even if Bruising wasn't meant to give tankers identity, tankers have the best -res numbers on every single power available to melee classes.

 

There is evidence of offensive support tendencies on tankers even if you assume the bruising addition was purely to make the forced t1 picks decent.