Revisit the Energy Melee nerfs

[marcussmythe]

2 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

Is this the one you mentioned in thr Proc Monster thread?

I was actually wondering how your progress was going, as I want to do a similar build to the one you posted, as opposed to the one Sir Myshkin used. His numbers were pretty impressive though.

Way too early to have a procmonster opinion.  Shes lvl 14 right now, and will be for a while yet - Im doing an ‘all contacts full bar’ run, and have alts to feed as well.  Further, youll probably learn more with an hour on test or by reading Myshkin than by listening to me - Im just a filthy casual these days, and tip my hat in passing to the master-class players.

 

That said, EM is at its strongest early, where its early attacke are reasonably competitive with other peoples, AOE isnt a thing yet, and the ability to stun a Lieutenant class baddie actually makes a real difference in your survival, so Im having a blast.  Also, Ive kinda changed how I look at CoH - not as a game, with competition or ‘best’ - we all know whats best, and we can all build it if we want to bad enough - but instead as a ‘what sounds fun’ sandbox.  Sure, EM still is objectively terrible - but destruction spell mages are fun in Skyrim, even if they are objectively terrible compared to Stealth Archers. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by marcussmythe

[BrandX]

I think it's time to just port Energy Melee to Scrappers, see how it works on Scrappers, while making whatever other improvements are needed.

 

This includes letting ET actually Crit and not just "no health spent" like on Stalkers 😛

[Gobbledygook]

7 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

Way too early to have a procmonster opinion.  Shes lvl 14 right now, and will be for a while yet - Im doing an ‘all contacts full bar’ run, and have alts to feed as well.  Further, youll probably learn more with an hour on test or by reading Myshkin than by listening to me - Im just a filthy casual these days, and tip my hat in passing to the master-class players.

 

That said, EM is at its strongest early, where its early attacke are reasonably competitive with other peoples, AOE isnt a thing yet, and the ability to stun a Lieutenant class baddie actually makes a real difference in your survival, so Im having a blast.  Also, Ive kinda changed how I look at CoH - not as a game, with competition or ‘best’ - we all know whats best, and we can all build it if we want to bad enough - but instead as a ‘what sounds fun’ sandbox.  Sure, EM still is objectively terrible - but destruction spell mages are fun in Skyrim, even if they are objectively terrible compared to Stealth Archers. 

I'm about to do something similar in Praetoria. If I can ever decide on a new toon to roll, that is.

Wasn't sure how much time had past between the post in the Proc Monster thread and my asking here, my bad.

[marcussmythe]

No need to apologize.  Its been at least a week, I think?  More than enough time for 50 with full IOs and full incarnates in the modern mileu.

[marcussmythe]

Gobbledygook -

 

Just dinged 50.  No pylon times to report (and there probably never will be - she isnt for that). 

 

Leaning hard on Mu+Whirling Hands for AOE, and an Adrenal Boost-Buildup-Energy Transfer-Bonesmasher-Energy Punch-Barrage cycle on bosses.  Attacks are heavily procmonstered - 3-4 procs in each, except energy punch (took a whole Tanker ATO set) and bonesmasher/barrage (spit the other tanker ATO set, plus 3 procs) - because I wanted to double-dip the sweet, sweet Energy Resist 3 Piece.

 

So far?  Shes tougher than my fully incarnate non-procced Lvl 50 TW/Bio (against most content) due to the higher defense, DDR, resist, and massive base HP (though I do miss the crazy heal).  Here damage falls fall short (of course!) but its comfortably soloable ,and reasonable for the sort of 'mission farming' I like to do - IDK if its really farming, I just run my missions at x8/+whatever Im comfortable with. (Barring things like Carnies, Imperial Defense - she DOES handle Malta! at x8 okay, which is a happy surprise)

 

Basically, Invuln gives enough resist and def that you can afford to go heavily into procs.  No doubt she could be far tougher, but shes tough enough.  That being said, the start of this show is procs, and the Mu Epic (Let me put it this way - I took Mu before I took Energy Transfer, and I would do so again).  Energy Transfer is a decent performer, but with her long animation time, she mostly sits on cooldown unless Im firing on an undamaged LT or a Boss.

 

Total Focus I picked up, and then put down and walked away.  It does not spark joy.  Frankly, it might be a better build without Energy Transfer, but if I dont take either, why am I even Energy Melee?

 

Current Thoughts:

1.)  TF needs to be a good bit faster to justify its existence.

2.)  EM needs its old animation back at current damage and self damage, OR to retain its current animation, with the SELF damage removed and instead moved over to 'damage out'

3.)  Whirling Hands is in large part a less useful AOE than ones from epic pools.  A bit more radius and damage might help here - wouldnt need to be A LOT, just enough to be competitive with the other good tank AOEs.

4.)  Stun... IDK what to do with stun.  I still think 'Ground Punch, AOE Knockup explosion, moderate damage' would be good.

 

With those changes, Id probably take the whole set.  And I should want to take the whole set.

[BrandX]

Take a second off of each TF and ET's animation.  That was basically my suggestion before, I just did it with putting in alternate animations (some liked, some didn't).

 

Still like the idea of keeping Stun the Mag 3 Stun to Primary target but adding in a AOE around target (so targeted AOE) like Street Justice's targeted AOE.  No change in damage, so the damage is weak, but players could proc it up for more damage (even put a KD proc in it if they want).

[Deathvirus]

On 6/2/2020 at 12:33 PM, marcussmythe said:

Gobbledygook -

 

Just dinged 50.  No pylon times to report (and there probably never will be - she isnt for that). 

 

Leaning hard on Mu+Whirling Hands for AOE, and an Adrenal Boost-Buildup-Energy Transfer-Bonesmasher-Energy Punch-Barrage cycle on bosses.  Attacks are heavily procmonstered - 3-4 procs in each, except energy punch (took a whole Tanker ATO set) and bonesmasher/barrage (spit the other tanker ATO set, plus 3 procs) - because I wanted to double-dip the sweet, sweet Energy Resist 3 Piece.

 

So far?  Shes tougher than my fully incarnate non-procced Lvl 50 TW/Bio (against most content) due to the higher defense, DDR, resist, and massive base HP (though I do miss the crazy heal).  Here damage falls fall short (of course!) but its comfortably soloable ,and reasonable for the sort of 'mission farming' I like to do - IDK if its really farming, I just run my missions at x8/+whatever Im comfortable with. (Barring things like Carnies, Imperial Defense - she DOES handle Malta! at x8 okay, which is a happy surprise)

 

Basically, Invuln gives enough resist and def that you can afford to go heavily into procs.  No doubt she could be far tougher, but shes tough enough.  That being said, the start of this show is procs, and the Mu Epic (Let me put it this way - I took Mu before I took Energy Transfer, and I would do so again).  Energy Transfer is a decent performer, but with her long animation time, she mostly sits on cooldown unless Im firing on an undamaged LT or a Boss.

 

Total Focus I picked up, and then put down and walked away.  It does not spark joy.  Frankly, it might be a better build without Energy Transfer, but if I dont take either, why am I even Energy Melee?

 

Current Thoughts:

1.)  TF needs to be a good bit faster to justify its existence.

2.)  EM needs its old animation back at current damage and self damage, OR to retain its current animation, with the SELF damage removed and instead moved over to 'damage out'

3.)  Whirling Hands is in large part a less useful AOE than ones from epic pools.  A bit more radius and damage might help here - wouldnt need to be A LOT, just enough to be competitive with the other good tank AOEs.

4.)  Stun... IDK what to do with stun.  I still think 'Ground Punch, AOE Knockup explosion, moderate damage' would be good.

 

With those changes, Id probably take the whole set.  And I should want to take the whole set.

This speaks volumes

[PeregrineFalcon]

As someone whose main on live and on Homecoming is an Invuln/EM Tank, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in.

 

Please don't touch the animation for Total Focus. Yes it's long. No I don't care. The going up and then coming down to smash is so much fun!

 

Second. Please just return Energy Transfer's old animation to it.  I don't care why it was nerfed. Blame whomever/whatever you want. Heck, blame ME if you want to. At this point I probably deserve it for something anyway. The self-damage should be removed, it will still lose in single-target damage to Psi-Melee, but if you feel the need to keep it fine, whatever.

 

Third. Please don't add in any special combos or "cute gimmicks." When I want that I play Street Justice. I play EM because I want fast, simple pomp-pomps of death interspersed with the slow up>>>down>>>bam of Total Focus. That's what the set was before the live-devs decided that EM had to die.

 

Fourth. Please give Stun the "Cobra Strike Makeover." Add some damage to it if it doesn't break the game.

 

Finally. Please port EM to Scrappers. It's never make sense that they don't have it. And, given all people's love of AoE, giving them a single-target monster set won't exactly be game-breaking.

[Greycat]

24 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 The self-damage should be removed,

Flip side being, if I'm going to do a lot of damage but the self-damage has to stay, I'm all *for* it. I like making choices like that, if it's worth it.

[marcussmythe]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Flip side being, if I'm going to do a lot of damage but the self-damage has to stay, I'm all *for* it. I like making choices like that, if it's worth it.

Yeup.  Id be fine at the release version (release animation, damage, and self damage) or at the current animation, with the current self damage flipped over into additional energy damage out.
 

I recall hearing, but cannot cite all these years later, that at one point Staff was listing the damage that ET did as justification for its animation time - but was including the self damage in the quoted total damage.  This seems ridiculous, but should not surprise, given that they cited pre-purple-patch movies showing performance against + lots mobs as proof of Regenerations need to be adjusted - AFTER the purple patch went live.  
 

[BrandX]

7 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

As someone whose main on live and on Homecoming is an Invuln/EM Tank, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in.

 

Please don't touch the animation for Total Focus. Yes it's long. No I don't care. The going up and then coming down to smash is so much fun!

 

Second. Please just return Energy Transfer's old animation to it.  I don't care why it was nerfed. Blame whomever/whatever you want. Heck, blame ME if you want to. At this point I probably deserve it for something anyway. The self-damage should be removed, it will still lose in single-target damage to Psi-Melee, but if you feel the need to keep it fine, whatever.

 

Third. Please don't add in any special combos or "cute gimmicks." When I want that I play Street Justice. I play EM because I want fast, simple pomp-pomps of death interspersed with the slow up>>>down>>>bam of Total Focus. That's what the set was before the live-devs decided that EM had to die.

 

Fourth. Please give Stun the "Cobra Strike Makeover." Add some damage to it if it doesn't break the game.

 

Finally. Please port EM to Scrappers. It's never make sense that they don't have it. And, given all people's love of AoE, giving them a single-target monster set won't exactly be game-breaking.

 

The Cobra Strike treatment, but CS has a faster animation and they made it equal to another attack in the set.  Though, I still like the idea of it being a targeted AOE...stun the primary target damage and splash damage to those around the primary target.

[Morgahn]

I am so impressed with all the well-thought out evaluations, explanations, and solutions.  I really can't add anything to this discussion other than my support that Energy Melee really needs a re-tweak.  It's my hopes that the Powers That Be are actively paying attention to this thread and realize the potential to show player support by working on this.

[0th Power]

I dusted off my inv/em tank the other day. Ran 3 da missions on a team of 8. I stopped trying to even use energy transfer after the first 3 times my target was defeated before the animation finished. 
 

I put my ideas in this thread way back on page 5 or something. Figured I could repost my ideas. 
 

1. no gimmicks (stores energy or otherwise)

2. Energy transfer gets old “power thrust” animation 

3. total focus reverted back to mag 4 stun (for blaster too)

4. Profit 

[killigraphy]

As a lvl 50 Invul/EM tank (twice to 50), I always felt like PVP killed much of everything, both on Defense/Resist and Offense. The devs just need to ignore PVP and let us run a bit OP, CoH was doing great without massive nerfs. There's a PVP server, nerd that, leave the rest alone. As for AoE vs Single target; I already assumed, reading the powers, that it was going to be single target heavy, with the option to spam one AoE. Its basically, a better looking/glowing, martial arts. A stun no one will really use, an AoE and two very strong single target attacks.

 

In the end, I'd like a PBAOE on TF ala Radiation Melee, and make the stun, cone based.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, killigraphy said:

As a lvl 50 Invul/EM tank (twice to 50), I always felt like PVP killed much of everything, both on Defense/Resist and Offense. The devs just need to ignore PVP and let us run a bit OP, CoH was doing great without massive nerfs. There's a PVP server, nerd that, leave the rest alone. As for AoE vs Single target; I already assumed, reading the powers, that it was going to be single target heavy, with the option to spam one AoE. Its basically, a better looking/glowing, martial arts. A stun no one will really use, an AoE and two very strong single target attacks.

 

In the end, I'd like a PBAOE on TF ala Radiation Melee, and make the stun, cone based.

 

Can't say I'm for to much if any added AOE to EM.  Stun doing additional AOE as a Targeted AOE like Spinning Strike, while keeping the low damage (people can proc it) works enough.  I'd rather see EM become one of the top ST sets.

[killigraphy]

7 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Can't say I'm for to much if any added AOE to EM.  Stun doing additional AOE as a Targeted AOE like Spinning Strike, while keeping the low damage (people can proc it) works enough.  I'd rather see EM become one of the top ST sets.

Single target is more than fine...but if we're gonna be the Top....EM needs -Def as well as high stun. Speed hasn't been an issue, its just that each strike feels ineffectual. You're just there to do a lot of dmg and that's....its too one dimensional even with the added effects.

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, killigraphy said:

Single target is more than fine...but if we're gonna be the Top....EM needs -Def as well as high stun. Speed hasn't been an issue, its just that each strike feels ineffectual. You're just there to do a lot of dmg and that's....its too one dimensional even with the added effects.

 

I never thought EM needed to be anything more than it was, except get it's speed in ET back, but I'd like to see TF get sped up too, which is why I had suggested before taking a second off each of them, which I would hope, would make the set seem much faster.

[agentx5]

So... when are the energy melee nerfs going to be removed?
 

😀

 

PS: Yes, I'd be down with a higher magnitude knock value as well, as the one person suggested. 16.62 is such an odd number... maybe an even 20 mag please?  (most AV's and GM's have something like a 100 mag protection so they're safe)

Edited June 18, 2020 by agentx5

[killigraphy]

6 hours ago, agentx5 said:

So... when are the energy melee nerfs going to be removed?
 

😀

 

PS: Yes, I'd be down with a higher magnitude knock value as well, as the one person suggested. 16.62 is such an odd number... maybe an even 20 mag please?  (most AV's and GM's have something like a 100 mag protection so they're safe)

 

I'm guessing the GM's thought IO's would be stronger the added effect side....and while that may be true for IO's, individual powers that contain stun aren't really useful endgame. I always found it weird on release, how a lot of the stuns were pretty much gimmicks. So if we don't get controller-like mag's (even though the numbers are the same, MAG-3) then why even bother grabbing up a power that 1; Is on a long cooldown, and 2; will never have high stun?

[Solarverse]

Take ET back to its original animation and the set is good. No need to over complicate the set.

[killigraphy]

The set is too simple as it is. QoL buffs, need to be made. You want people to actually choose the set because its more than pretty....I want a useful set. If I take a power that is basically a stun, I want it to actually stun something more than fodder. It also desperately needs another AoE, In my opinion; turning TF into a PBAOE would be much better than it just being single target. If you think that's over complication, than you need to look at "simpler" sets, that do a lot more. For example....Katana Melee, or even SS.

[Patti]

Extend total focus animation time.

But make it auto hit.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, killigraphy said:

The set is too simple as it is. QoL buffs, need to be made. You want people to actually choose the set because its more than pretty....I want a useful set. If I take a power that is basically a stun, I want it to actually stun something more than fodder. It also desperately needs another AoE, In my opinion; turning TF into a PBAOE would be much better than it just being single target. If you think that's over complication, than you need to look at "simpler" sets, that do a lot more. For example....Katana Melee, or even SS.

 

I don't think anyone is saying turning TF into a PBAOE isn't simple.  Electric Melee has that with Thunder Strike.  Same animation, PBAOE.

 

I do think many of us are saying we're willing to see it be #1 ST DPS at the cost of more AOE.

 

I wouldn't mind Stun getting it's Mag 4 Stun back, with added splash damage (no stun to those around the target).

[ZeeHero]

On 5/17/2020 at 12:32 PM, Troo said:

Tsk-tsk.

 

My purpose was not to offend. If I did, I assure you it was unintentional. This does not grant you license to spew in inaccuracies, misconceptions or opinions as facts.

What misconception? Aoe is king in like 90% of the game. every set needs decent aoe, not every set needs to be aoe god. Energy Melee need not be as awesome as TW for aoe but it darn better be beter than it is now for aoe.

[marcussmythe]

I would not sneer at AOE, were it offered.  With that said, the ‘Hat’ that Energy Melee wore, its selling point, was bar-none #1 Single-Target DPS, all other considerations secondary.  Thats why you picked it.

 

So, for me, give it that crown back.  And having done so, if additional AOE is seen as necessary, so be it - but only after the single target is pegged to the top of the chart.

 

My 2 inf.  YMMV.