Instant healing Toggle instead of click

[Sarrate]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

The way I visualize it is that it takes an enhanceable fraction of each incoming damage token (i.e., per tick for DoTs) and queue that as a heal, in the same way that Spectral Wounds applies damage and a delayed heal; if it was made to work for Spectral Wounds, the same mechanism can be used for IH.

I understand what you're saying, but unfortunately it's not that simple. Spectral Wounds' effect is completely baked into the power. It does X damage, then after Y seconds it heals the enemy for Z health. It's not dynamic at all. As I recall, if you enhance the damage portion, the heal portion stays fixed. So this would require some sort of global proc, or other system to function. It may be possible (I honestly don't know), but it would surely be non-trivial.

 

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Someone mentioned how regeneration can be wasted if you heal to max HP...well, how is making IH a toggle going to waste less?

I understand what you're saying, but unfortunately it's not that simple. Spectral Wounds' effect is completely baked into the power. It does X damage, then after Y seconds it heals the enemy for Z health. It's not dynamic at all. As I recall, if you enhance the damage portion, the heal portion stays fixed. So this would require some sort of global proc, or other system to function. It may be possible (I honestly don't know), but it would surely be non-trivial.

 

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

To make Regeneration into the set you imagine it should be, you'd have to boost its defense and resistance levels to properly emulate the effect of regenerating damage over time.  Adding absorb is just a temporary HP buff that isn't affected by +regen (thus it's weaker).  Would it be better to add it?  Probably.  It wouldn't be Regen though.  Wolverine doesn't generate fake skin over his body to absorb damage so your blubbering about the name of the set gets hamstrung by your solution.

I don't understand what you're saying here. The benefits of absorb are:

 

1) It increases the maximum amount of damage Regen can take at once. For a Regen Scrapper without outside powers (so hp cap + Resilience), the maximum burst damage they could take is (2409 / (1 - 0.1463)) = 2,821.8 damage. An absorb shield would allow them to take more punishment while being a bit more flavorful than more +resistance.

 

2) It allows healing and regen to operate in parallel. For example, if a Regen character is at 50% health, then pops Reconstruction to 100%, their regeneration stops providing hp. If Reconstruction (for example), instead the Regen character would be at 50% health, have a 50% absorb shield, and still be regenerating. Every second the absorb shield is up, the more hp the Regen character has replenished that would have been lost before.

 

3) Alternatively, if stacking absorb shields were received peridically (by some means, auto, toggle, etc), it would either act as a large barrier against burst damage (when stacked) or minor damage reduction if it's constantly being punched through.

Just because it's "not affected by regen" doesn't mean it's bad. (I keep hearing people talk about how good the Sentinel version is. I should try that sometime for comparison.)

As for the conceptual argument, that falls flat for me. Don't think of the absorb shield as a fake skin, think about it as your character's ability to instantly regenerate damage as soon as it is taken. That's no more bizzare than MoG or SR's scaling resists for "slowing down time." Perfectly thematic if you ask me.

[Leogunner]

25 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

You have some points. Yes the regen does need to be enhanceable but your very first post came across as utterly nonsensical which was why I was so confrontational, they idea that if you wanted to play a concept like say, Wolverine, you were better off playing Willpower just made me go WTF. Plus you've admitted in the past that you like to prod the hornets nest just to see people react so I am rather wary of dealing with you.

You're talking about my 2nd post.  My first post was simply saying I don't want IH as a toggle ("I vote no").  The OP prodded *me* to say more despite me not really caring how he asked the question in the first place.

 

As for the concept aspect, this was proven a long time ago. Just 1 of any mitigation stat doesn't cut it.  It's why SR gets scaling resists, Inv gets extra def per foe and why WP's "bit of def, bit of res and scaling regen" is as effective as it is.  And its why newer sets try to mix 2 or more of them (def, resist, regen, HP and healing) rather than the old fashion sets.  But overall, the concept of a set can be whatever you want it to be.  The difference is how the sets play.

 

55 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Willpower isn't built around JUST passive regeneration which is why I do not see it as a regeneration focused set. It also has resistances and defenses. It's more akin to a less Smashing/Lethal focused Invuln with its secondary benefit being regen instead of more typed defense. Regen is built around just healing and regeneration, Regen doesn't just HAVE to be about passive regen, it should be about Regen AND healing, IH as a toggle helps that view in my regard. My suggestion for IH being a toggle with an absorb shield was a compromise since you seem dead set on not allowing it with its current state. Personally if I could I would rather see Regen get IH as a toggle back and have a lot of the regen enhanceable.

Willpower is, I believe, the 2nd highest in passive regeneration of any set.  The point is, if that is the desired goal (passive regeneration as a mechanic to build around), it is best emulated by decreasing the incoming damage so that passive regeneration can take care of it.  You can't do that with JUST passive regeneration without having broken levels of +regen.  Again, this was all elaborated on in the various survivability debates on the official forums.

 

As for "not allowing it", I have no jurisdiction over what is and isn't allowed.  I don't think IH as a toggle somehow promotes a better concept of "Regen AND Healing" than a click IH does.  And I don't think absorb is all that conceptually fitting either.  I just feel there are better options to make the set better and stand out more.

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

I don't understand what you're saying here. The benefits of absorb are:

 

1) It increases the maximum amount of damage Regen can take at once. For a Regen Scrapper without outside powers (so hp cap + Resilience), the maximum burst damage they could take is (2409 / (1 - 0.1463)) = 2,821.8 damage. An absorb shield would allow them to take more punishment while being a bit more flavorful than more +resistance.

I didn't say +absorb wouldn't be more effective, I just said it isn't all that more conceptually fitting than other mixes.

 

5 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

2) It allows healing and regen to operate in parallel. For example, if a Regen character is at 50% health, then pops Reconstruction to 100%, their regeneration stops providing hp. If Reconstruction (for example), instead the Regen character would be at 50% health, have a 50% absorb shield, and still be regenerating. Every second the absorb shield is up, the more hp the Regen character has replenished that would have been lost before.

Now you're tailoring specific circumstances to conform to your perspective.  And if the Scrapper uses Reconstruction but doesn't get to 100% health (it's only a 700 heal and Scrapper has nearly 2x that w/ Dull Pain)?

 

But then we're not even talking about IH which is the subject here.

 

12 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

3) Alternatively, if stacking absorb shields were received peridically (by some means, auto, toggle, etc), it would either act as a large barrier against burst damage (when stacked) or minor damage reduction if it's constantly being punched through.

Just because it's "not affected by regen" doesn't mean it's bad. (I keep hearing people talk about how good the Sentinel version is. I should try that sometime for comparison.)

As for the conceptual argument, that falls flat for me. Don't think of the absorb shield as a fake skin, think about it as your character's ability to instantly regenerate damage as soon as it is taken. That's no more bizzare than MoG or SR's scaling resists for "slowing down time." Perfectly thematic if you ask me.

And your conceptual argument falls flat for me.  If you like the absorb shields, play Bio with min FX or sentinel /Regen.  I'm personally not opposed to absorb but it's probably how others view adding extra mechanics to old sets that I feel with people trying to put +absorb on everything.  It's not needed and it certainly isn't *more* conceptually fitting than just good ol' resistance/def on top of +regen (like we all do now) if you want a passive regenerating hero/villain.

 

Moment of Glory is literally that: a moment where nothing can bring you down.

 

Like I said before, I think your issue is with the *concept* that the Regeneration set was meant to portray vs what it does portray.  What it was meant to portray is what Willpower does.  What Regeneration portrays is something else and I'd prefer to keep it that way.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

But just saying no and then coming back, multiple times, explaining why you're not explaining just saying no is such a worthwhile use of time. Thanks for the laugh.

You're easily amused and demonstrates why it'd be a waste of my time. You wouldn't care why I'd prefer the way the set is and merely laugh at any reasoning brought up or dismiss them. 

 

I really should be asleep since I need to get up in 3 hours. 

[Monos King]

I don't understand this confounding conceptual conversation. Regeneration = you get more health. You heal/regenerate, I'm confused as to any argument here. Someone mentioned how invulnerability doesn't literally make you invulnerable; of course not. That wouldn't make sense in a game. It was clearly meant to give off the idea of being invulnerable though within the limitations of the game balance.

Absorb was a newer mechanic that A LOT of powers would have used if it existed during the beginning, but it didn't. You can fashion absorb to act as healing, regen or even resistance if your creative with power descriptions, but each power has it's focus that effects will clearly stem from. The stats were designed with this in mind.

 

Impartial to this thread, I don't understand how Willpower is fulfilling the idea of regenerating more than the set that focuses on getting health back up @Leogunner. Perhaps I am missing your point.

[DR_Mechano]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Willpower is, I believe, the 2nd highest in passive regeneration of any set.  The point is, if that is the desired goal (passive regeneration as a mechanic to build around), it is best emulated by decreasing the incoming damage so that passive regeneration can take care of it.  You can't do that with JUST passive regeneration without having broken levels of +regen.  Again, this was all elaborated on in the various survivability debates on the official forums.

And I think this is where the problem lies. You think people want to be able to deal with this with JUST passive regen. No, that's what the heals are for, you know those OTHER things Regen has as part of its set I'm not sure where you got the idea that I thought Regen should just be all passives, notice how I didn't argue for the click heals (thought they could do with some changes perhaps) to be changed. No I merely argued for IH to be changed which is like, what 1 less click in a set. You would still need to managed Reconstruction, Dull Pain and MoG. Even adding back in Instant Healing that's 4 clicks. That's about the same as Bio armor, in fact it's actually only 1 more than Bio armor, making IH a toggle instead of a click actually puts it on par with Bio armor...

 

Like did you think we wanted the entire set to all be toggles? Did you think that is what we were suggesting? Because if so..you were VERY wrong.

Edited February 3, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Click power = Instant Healing

Toggle power = CONSTANT Healing (that costs endurance)

It's called Integration and you already have it.  Regen is not underpowered.  People just think they can play it without using the clicks and that's dumb.

[Galaxy Brain]

Reposting from another thread, the below is not a real world example but shows a quick breakdown of the two regen sets over time:

 

I'm gonna throw out some napkin math vs a magical DPS turret where the characters have infinite time to work their magic.

 

Scrapper at lvl 50, no enhancements:

 

Passive:

1339 Max HP / 1874.5 with Dull Pain.

Base Regen with Fast Healing, Health, and Integration - 20.36 hps / 28.51 hps with DP

Resilience gives 9.4% res vs all damage which is nice, effectively increasing your HP / Healing by that amount too

 

Active:

Dull Pain has a ~33% uptime, also heals 40% of your HP instantly

Reconstruction has a 60s cooldown and instantly heals 25% hp (either 334.75 or 468.625 hp with DP)

Instant Healing has a pitiful ~14% uptime. While active, your regen jumps to - 65 hps / 90.99 hps with DP for 90s, which over triples your base healing

Revive is.... just for when you die, but it does bounce you back with near max HP.

MoG is also... MoG. Pop it and be godmode for 15 sec 🤷‍♂️

 

Math:

If we were to sit the Scrapper in front of the magic DPS turret that fires non stop DPS, we can observe the following:

• 100 incoming DPS, which should shred the scrapper up in 13.39 seconds
• 100 DPS -> 90.6 DPS from Resilience
• 90.6 DPS - 20.36 regen = 70.24 DPS
• Recon can be seen as 25% HP (334.75) / 60s, or 5.58 regen -> 64.66 DPS
• Dull Pain similarly can be seen as 535.4 hp / 360s, or ~1.5 regen -> 63.16 DPS
  • With it's uptime, we could see DP as effectively a 13.2%  HP increase... changing our values:
  • 23.05 base regen + (468.625/60) = 7.81 Reconstruction regen + 1.5 DP regen --> 32.36 effective regen --> 58.24 DPS vs 1515.75 HP
• Instant Healing while active will add about 50.52 extra regen for 90s while its active, or 82.88 hps total all things added up -> 7.72 dps
  • If we use the uptime though, this becomes 7.07 extra regen, 39.43 -> 51.17 DPS
  •  
  • Final DPS taken = 51.17, time to defeat = 29.62 seconds
  •  
• MoG has a 6.25% uptime, which if we want to treat it the same vs the magic DPS turret would = 4.46 Def/Res to pretty much everything over infinite time.
  • We'll say the defense lowers incoming DPS (in a vacuum) by 4.46% -> 95.4
  • 9.4 + 4.46 res = 13.86 res -> 82.18 DPS to start
  •  
  • Final DPS taken = 42.75, time to defeat = 35.46 seconds

 

 

 

 

 

Sentinel at lvl 50, no enhancements:

 

Passive:

1494.14 Max HP thanks to Dismiss Pain.

Base Regen with Fast Healing, Health, and Integration - 22.72 hps 

Resilience gives 8.8% res vs all damage which is nice, effectively increasing your HP / Healing by that amount too

Instant Regeneration is a big factor here, as while active it gives you a layer of 5% Absorb every 3 sec that lasts for 3 sec.

This is equal to 74.71 / 3 sec, or 24.9 Absorb/sec. We will assume the latter when we put it in front of the DPS turret. 

 

Active:

Reconstruction has a 60s cooldown and instantly heals 25% hp (373.535), this can equal 6.23 extra regen

Second Wind is a big X Factor... but it has a 250s base recharge compared to Dull Pain's 360 and Instant Healing's 650. Objectively speaking, this could be a huge deal vs Burst Damage combined with Reconstruction.

MoG grants 66.5% Def/Res for Sents, which at the same 6.25% uptime = 4.16 Def/Res

 

Math:

If we were to sit the Sentinel in front of the same magic DPS turret that fires non stop DPS, we can observe the following:

• 100 incoming DPS, which should shred the Sentinel up in 14.94 seconds
• 100 DPS -> 91.2 DPS from Resilience
• That 91.2 DPS is now directly negated by the 24.9 Absorb/Sec from Insta Regen -> 66.3 DPS
• 66.3 DPS - 22.72 regen, - 6.23 Reconstruction Regen = 37.35 DPS
•  
• Final DPS taken = 37.35, time to defeat = 40.00 seconds
•  
• MoG  = 4.16 Def/Res to pretty much everything over infinite time.
  • We'll say the defense lowers incoming DPS (in a vacuum) by 4.16% -> 95.84
  • 8.8 + 4.16 res = 12.96 res -> 83.42 DPS to start
  • 83.42 - 24.9 absorb -> 58.52 DPS
  • - 28.95 effective regen = 29.57 DPS
  •  
  • Final DPS taken = 29.57, time to defeat = 50.53 seconds

 

This is without the benefit of Second Wind even factored in, but at a basic level it looks like in this hypothetical scenario the Sentinel is about 35 - 43% tougher than the Scrapper, without using one of it's heals!

 

 

I'm gonna factor in some basic SO slotting here to see where the values end up with 3 recharges / etc in the mix...

 

I have to double the incoming DPS to 200 since Sentinel Regen was immortal vs 100 dps.... going to ignore MoG too because complex

 

Scrapper - Reduces 200 DPS down to 71.28 DPS, time to defeat = 25.99 seconds

 

Sentinel - Reduces 200 DPS down to 30.16 DPS, time to defeat = 54.1 seconds

 

Scrapper with Sentinel Regen:

Scrapinel Regen - Reduces 200 DPS down to 19.59 DPS, time to defeat = 92.54 seconds

 

The major differences here are that Absorb Shield taking away from damage to your HP directly, on top of a passive +HP.

[NNDeepdish]

8 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

It's called Integration and you already have it.  Regen is not underpowered.  People just think they can play it without using the clicks and that's dumb.

There's really no reason to pick Regen as a scrapper secondary considering Willpower does everything better. That's a problem.

[CU_Krow]

This thread has popped up NUMEROUS times since Homecoming popped up. I'm surprised its not a consolidated thread. There's going to be constant IH toggle vs click debate until Regen is looked at once again.

 

1) I would vote "yes" as IH for a toggle. Personally for me, my stalker is MA/Regen, and I would love it.

2) Every time this topic comes up, everyone refers back to the reason regen was nerfed in the first place is because of PVPers complaining that they could not kill regen players fast enough.

3) I see two possible solutions: A) Make IH a toggle, but at a higher end cost or lower regen cost, or B) Keep IH as a click, but reduce the recharge time of the power (I believe for stalkers, its currently 10min recharge; I'll have to double check on this)

 

[TheMuna]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Dude. This is great. Thank you. 

 

Now I don't know if those Scrapinel figures are too high and would make the Regen Scrapper too strong but it's good to remember that Regen still has to survive that alpha. I think that Regen should be mostly invincible after surviving the major onslaught.

[Leogunner]

10 hours ago, monos1 said:

Impartial to this thread, I don't understand how Willpower is fulfilling the idea of regenerating more than the set that focuses on getting health back up @Leogunner. Perhaps I am missing your point.

Because Willpower, in and of itself, is a neutral conceptual power created for "natural" heroes that doesn't inject a particular concept but rather a *passive* nature.  It fulfills the idea of comic book regeneration because its means of mitigation combine the mechanics of the game to emulate that very same comic book regeneration.

 

If you describe what the comic book regen is and why people feel Regen set is too clicky and not beholden to its theme, you then see why Willpower (a set whose theme is more neutral) does exactly what comic book regeneration does.

 

9 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

And I think this is where the problem lies. You think people want to be able to deal with this with JUST passive regen.

It's usually what people migrate to when talking about making IH a toggle instead of a click.  Stay on track.

 

9 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

No, that's what the heals are for, you know those OTHER things Regen has as part of its set I'm not sure where you got the idea that I thought Regen should just be all passives, notice how I didn't argue for the click heals (thought they could do with some changes perhaps) to be changed.

Now you're conflating the argument.  I didn't say "be all passives".  I said passive...as in passive gameplay where you don't have to time your heal like DA or Regen.

 

Also, this is mostly about IH.  The set as a whole probably wouldn't change effectiveness outside of minor non-min/maxed builds.  You're starting to stray into balance of the whole set whereas I'm just arguing to keep IH a click then asked why I said as much then elaborated on concept being part of it.

 

9 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

No I merely argued for IH to be changed which is like, what 1 less click in a set. You would still need to managed Reconstruction, Dull Pain and MoG. Even adding back in Instant Healing that's 4 clicks. That's about the same as Bio armor, in fact it's actually only 1 more than Bio armor, making IH a toggle instead of a click actually puts it on par with Bio armor...

 

Like did you think we wanted the entire set to all be toggles? Did you think that is what we were suggesting? Because if so..you were VERY wrong.

Like I said, I'd rather keep it that way.  Also, Bio is inherently broken and likely should have more of its effects tied into the 3 modes, forcing users to choose rather than having so much of everything.

 

And begging the question doesn't really help your argument.  I want IH to remain a click.  End of point.  You're the one dragging in all the other clicks into the argument.

 

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is without the benefit of Second Wind even factored in, but at a basic level it looks like in this hypothetical scenario the Sentinel is about 35 - 43% tougher than the Scrapper, without using one of it's heals!

 

 

I'm gonna factor in some basic SO slotting here to see where the values end up with 3 recharges / etc in the mix...

 

I have to double the incoming DPS to 200 since Sentinel Regen was immortal vs 100 dps.... going to ignore MoG too because complex

 

Scrapper - Reduces 200 DPS down to 71.28 DPS, time to defeat = 25.99 seconds

 

Sentinel - Reduces 200 DPS down to 30.16 DPS, time to defeat = 54.1 seconds

 

Scrapper with Sentinel Regen:

Scrapinel Regen - Reduces 200 DPS down to 19.59 DPS, time to defeat = 92.54 seconds

 

The major differences here are that Absorb Shield taking away from damage to your HP directly, on top of a passive +HP.

It's honestly no surprise.  Everything new is in the "overperforming" category.  Comparing something like Dark Melee vs Street Justice will likely give you a comparable disparity.

 

The question has always been bringing everyone up to their level or knocking everyone down to be around the same.  There should be middle ground and taking into consideration other utilities and benefits to make options more of a choice rather than a scale from Battle Axe to Titan Weapons.

[Myrmidon]

14 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Then just rename Willpower to Regeneration.

 

[Leogunner]

18 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Funny. I replied pretty similarly to the suggestion of making IH a toggle and told that isn't enough and need to elaborate. 

 

Don't you feel you should elaborate on your response? 

[Myrmidon]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Funny. I replied pretty similarly to the suggestion of making IH a toggle and told that isn't enough and need to elaborate. 

 

Don't you feel you should elaborate on your response? 

Willpower takes Regeneration’s lunch money and makes it walk home without shoes.

 

 

Those of you that like Regen, by all means ask for some changes. 

[Galaxy Brain]

55 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Comparing something like Dark Melee vs Street Justice will likely give you a comparable disparity.

Done that, DM is the worst melee set in a vacuum while StJ is a solid A tier set, below TW, Katana, and Staff. 

[TheMuna]

36 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Done that, DM is the worst melee set in a vacuum while StJ is a solid A tier set, below TW, Katana, and Staff. 

Something pretty hard for me to grapple with seeing as how Dark/Dark was always my favorite concept. But it's just not great... Ugh. At least Katana is decent, although I'd love Kinetic Melee if the animations weren't so long.

Edited February 3, 2020 by TheMuna

[Galaxy Brain]

5 minutes ago, TheMuna said:

Something pretty hard for me to grapple with seeing as how Dark/Dark was always my favorite concept. But it's just not great... Ugh. At least Katana is decent, although I'd love Kinetic Melee if the animations weren't so long.

Like I said, in a vacuum it is bad (KM is also only better than DM...) there are synergies for sure but there is also a lot of downsides.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, CU_Krow said:

Every time this topic comes up, everyone refers back to the reason regen was nerfed in the first place is because of PVPers complaining that they could not kill regen players fast enough.

That is not really why Regen was nerfed, nor was IH being a toggle what overpowered it.  Regen being an issue in PvP was more due to perma MoG than IH being overpowered.  Prior to ED, you could 6 slot all heals and with the ability to stack Dull Pain, you were essentially unkillable.  We had a Spines/Regen scrapper back in the day who would tank Hami for us.  What most fail to mention is that in building this way, your offense was next to nothing.

 

At this point, as much as I would like to see IH turned back into a toggle, I have to agree with those who suggest rolling /WP instead.

[TheMuna]

16 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Because your OP is beating around the bush, not stating what you want to say and just implying you're ushering a conversation rather than just being frank. 

 

What does it matter that other effects are duplicated through sets/pools?  De-clutter the secondary?  What does that even mean?  Worrying about keeping IH up...I'd suggest don't.  Someone mentioned how regeneration can be wasted if you heal to max HP...well, how is making IH a toggle going to waste less?

 

Because you don't want to hear why I don't want IH as a toggle. I say, if you want to have a passive regen secondary, use Willpower. 

I do want to hear it though. If there's some functional reason why it can't be a toggle, I'd want to hear it.  I was away from the game for a long time and am not familiar with all the mechanical reasons as to why it wouldn't work. Of course I want /Regen to be more survivable because I loved that set early on and I like the concpet.. But I can also understand that it was too strong at one point. But I never understood why it became a click instead of just a weaker toggle.

 

So that's why I was careful to ask and not state that it should be one way or another. I was asking for input hoping that someone with more out info or insight could chime in.

 

By de-clutter I mean to make the set simpler to use optimally. Moment of Glory is already the "oh snap" or "time to fight the AV" power. So having IH as a toggle would mean that it could just be there for regular use without having to worry about keeping it up and running. Right now, having a bunch of other defensive options to use in-between seems to mean that you're only using your main super power sometimes. So it would de-clutter the set by creating one less worry and making Regen a little more "set it, and forget it".  You only slot the toggle for heal/absorb and endurance call it a day. So you can focus on your attacks and/or the other aspects of your build, not you're supposedly innate defense.

 

 

As I said, that's one side though. I don't know the other side and why it was changed in the first place other than being overpowered at the time.

 

But hey, good job on blindly assuming my intent and again, providing nothing.

[CU_Krow]

35 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

That is not really why Regen was nerfed, nor was IH being a toggle what overpowered it.  Regen being an issue in PvP was more due to perma MoG than IH being overpowered.  Prior to ED, you could 6 slot all heals and with the ability to stack Dull Pain, you were essentially unkillable.  We had a Spines/Regen scrapper back in the day who would tank Hami for us.  What most fail to mention is that in building this way, your offense was next to nothing.

 

At this point, as much as I would like to see IH turned back into a toggle, I have to agree with those who suggest rolling /WP instead.

Interesting, did not know this perspective on it. Thank you, Shard.

 

29 minutes ago, TheMuna said:

I do want to hear it though. If there's some functional reason why it can't be a toggle, I'd want to hear it.  I was away from the game for a long time and am not familiar with all the mechanical reasons as to why it wouldn't work. Of course I want /Regen to be more survivable because I loved that set early on and I like the concpet.. But I can also understand that it was too strong at one point. But I never understood why it became a click instead of just a weaker toggle.

 

So that's why I was careful to ask and not state that it should be one way or another. I was asking for input hoping that someone with more out info or insight could chime in.

 

By de-clutter I mean to make the set simpler to use optimally. Moment of Glory is already the "oh snap" or "time to fight the AV" power. So having IH as a toggle would mean that it could just be there for regular use without having to worry about keeping it up and running. Right now, having a bunch of other defensive options to use in-between seems to mean that you're only using your main super power sometimes. So it would de-clutter the set by creating one less worry and making Regen a little more "set it, and forget it".  You only slot the toggle for heal/absorb and endurance call it a day. So you can focus on your attacks and/or the other aspects of your build, not you're supposedly innate defense.

 

 

As I said, that's one side though. I don't know the other side and why it was changed in the first place other than being overpowered at the time.

 

But hey, good job on blindly assuming my intent and again, providing nothing.

 

If you're going to defend your position here on forums on whatever you bring up, better get used to people assuming your intent without anything to back it up. 😛 Seen it much too often. Certain segment of users will just assume/accuse instead of attempting to understand from another's perspective. You just gotta learn to ignore, while strongly defending and standing your ground on whatever direction you're coming from.

Edited February 3, 2020 by CU_Krow

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, TheMuna said:

I do want to hear it though. If there's some functional reason why it can't be a toggle, I'd want to hear it.  I was away from the game for a long time and am not familiar with all the mechanical reasons as to why it wouldn't work. Of course I want /Regen to be more survivable because I loved that set early on and I like the concpet.. But I can also understand that it was too strong at one point. But I never understood why it became a click instead of just a weaker toggle.

 

So that's why I was careful to ask and not state that it should be one way or another. I was asking for input hoping that someone with more out info or insight could chime in.

 

By de-clutter I mean to make the set simpler to use optimally. Moment of Glory is already the "oh snap" or "time to fight the AV" power. So having IH as a toggle would mean that it could just be there for regular use without having to worry about keeping it up and running. Right now, having a bunch of other defensive options to use in-between seems to mean that you're only using your main super power sometimes. So it would de-clutter the set by creating one less worry and making Regen a little more "set it, and forget it".  You only slot the toggle for heal/absorb and endurance call it a day. So you can focus on your attacks and/or the other aspects of your build, not you're supposedly innate defense.

 

 

As I said, that's one side though. I don't know the other side and why it was changed in the first place other than being overpowered at the time.

 

But hey, good job on blindly assuming my intent and again, providing nothing.

May I ask, have you read the related threads and posts on this forum concerning Regen, this topic and related material?

 

You may notice that, in so doing, you may have most of your queries sufficiently answered.

 

Imagine, if you answered the same question several dozen times at length, you may begin to refer future inquisitions to the wealth of published material you have.

 

It may be advisable to start with searching for the topics, looking in the scrapper, brute and sentinel forums and coming forth with a proactive solution set. Versus asking without reading source material presently available.

 

By asking for an explanation that has been explained by the same community that explained it a multitude of times before, you're forcing the same people who previously did the work many times, to do it again.

 

I suggest you be proactive and do that work yourself and then return and ask questions about what has not been answered.

 

When I need to know something at work, for example, I first read the material at hand to attempt to find the answer myself.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, TheMuna said:

But hey, good job on blindly assuming my intent and again, providing nothing.

So now you're complaining at me for complaining at you for not clarifying after I clarified. 

 

I mean, you only just now clarified you want to make Regen stronger and making the intent ambitious being changing IH into a toggle. From your OP, the only context you gave is making the set easier to manage.

 

Lol to complain at me for getting you to clarify your point after you did the same thing (me complaining you're not being frank and upfront) seems to be a fair trade although I'm sure you want to somehow shape it like you're the one being harassed. 

 

2 hours ago, TheMuna said:

I do want to hear it though. If there's some functional reason why it can't be a toggle, I'd want to hear it.  I was away from the game for a long time and am not familiar with all the mechanical reasons as to why it wouldn't work. Of course I want /Regen to be more survivable because I loved that set early on and I like the concpet.. But I can also understand that it was too strong at one point. But I never understood why it became a click instead of just a weaker toggle.

There is no mechanical reason why IH can't be a toggle. There are balance reasons and conceptual ones. 

 

And for the "only using you super power sometimes" is how the game was meant to be. The stronger the power, the less often you can use it or the stronger the drawback. I personally hope we aren't all racing to 100% uptime on everything since it just makes it a spam fest. 

 

LOL but I provide nothing to the thread? W well I did get you to clarify your goal. That's something. 

[Solarverse]

On 2/2/2020 at 1:04 PM, lemming said:

I'd like to see Regen worked on a bit.  I think going back to the way IH was before the "nerf" would be a mistake, but an overhaul of the set would be nice and that would include IH being a toggle.

I'd probably make MoG a shorter life power, but make it less of an emergency power and the way to avoid the Alpha.

It's been done on another server. IH as a toggle is not the power house it used to be. It's nowhere near as good and still lacks compared to other sets. It need work and lots of it. The set is very sad IMO. I only play it for nostalgic reasons and always end up feeling "meh" afterwards...even on the server that has it back as a toggle.

[TheMuna]

5 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

May I ask, have you read the related threads and posts on this forum concerning Regen, this topic and related material?

 

You may notice that, in so doing, you may have most of your queries sufficiently answered.

 

Imagine, if you answered the same question several dozen times at length, you may begin to refer future inquisitions to the wealth of published material you have.

 

It may be advisable to start with searching for the topics, looking in the scrapper, brute and sentinel forums and coming forth with a proactive solution set. Versus asking without reading source material presently available.

 

By asking for an explanation that has been explained by the same community that explained it a multitude of times before, you're forcing the same people who previously did the work many times, to do it again.

 

I suggest you be proactive and do that work yourself and then return and ask questions about what has not been answered.

 

When I need to know something at work, for example, I first read the material at hand to attempt to find the answer myself.

I did a search. Maybe I didn't run the right strings but I didn't see my question specifically answered. Also, you didn't point me in the direction of any knowledge with your original post. You just gave a one word answer. If you had provided a link for one of these threads and with all the answers, I would have said "/thread" and "thank you". There's a polite way to do things and a way that is meant sound Superior to an anonymous online audience. Your choice was the later. It's really that clear.

 

If you had really just care about providing information, you say things in a polite way and be done with it. So please don't act like you cared about the good of the forum now. Be honest with yourself for a second.