Mastermind Pet Customization

[MTeague]

If we were dealing with a for-profit AAA gaming studio on an actively supported game that was generating revenue enough to be their bread and butter, I'd be "Dude WTF" that Illusion Control got something cool and no one else did.  We're not dealing with a AAA gaming studio, and the very limited dev staff is doing this as a hobby / devotion in there free time after they do whatever day job they have to pay bills, keep the family happy, hang out with their own RL friends, etc. 

 

My expectations are vastly lower for a smaller "labor of love" programming team. 

 

Mirror option for Illusion Control, I see as a proof-of-concept babystep. 

Hopefully more options will come in time. 

 

But I'm plenty cool with the existing game as it is, and I have a legion of characters (well, slightly over 30) and that'll keep me busy for literally years.  I can be as patient as needed.

I'll still WANT new shiny toys of course.  But I'm keeping expectations right at zero.  Anything I get is a gift.  Hell, having the game AT ALL to even HAVE this discussion, is a massive gift.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 2/14/2020 at 12:37 PM, Seigmoraig said:

AE a mostly secluded area of the game where you have to know which maps are which to see the full breadth of positive and not so positive content. I would assume 99% of the people who do AE do fire/sl farm maps and never look at the rest of the content. 

Doing that joke with a couple friends needs coordination with said friends.

 

If it was so easy to get a bunch of friends agree to do a tasteless joke like this you would be seeing it, and we are not because it's just not as simple as rolling a character and modifying a bunch of costumes. Yeah it's possible but it's not EASY that's the kicker here

Its not some tasteless joke, at least one of the cop themed SGs on everlasting has its vice squad division which is just a bunch of pimp and hooker toons that are also undercover cops supposedly. There is also an SG cityscape with maybe the single most detailed strip club/brothel I could imagine as its main attraction.

 

As far as I can tell the HC admin do not have issue with such mature themed characters. Hell even back on live I knew of no few characters with sexual assault as part of their backstory and reason for becoming a hero, and that is also a pretty mature thing to include in a bio and live admin allowed it.

 

If someone wants a virtual harem its no skin off me nose.

[VileTerror]

It's a prickly topic, because for some people it's a reminder of traumatic lived experiences.  It's certainly "skin off" THEIR noses.  (Not meaning to personalize any of this, but that particular phrase pushed a certain button.)

The express mission statement of Homecoming may be a bit ambiguous (ok, very) on the HOWs of their mission, but they clearly stated that they want Homecoming to be a place where everyone is welcome to enjoy the game.
(Nipping the slippery-slope of "tolerate intolerance" in bud; just No.  Tolerating intolerance is not capital-T Tolerance.  The Code of Conduct makes that pretty clear.)

 

So, again, for whatever it's worth to those who are worried and have deep-rooted concerns; there's at least some people here who understand the source of your worries.  Clearly there are people who don't understand, and purposefully or accidentally undermine you for expressing those feelings.  That's not cool, and it should really stop (especially since that kind of victim-blaming attitude is hurting the chances of getting this feature added, rather than silencing people whose voices should be heard.  Seriously; to those of you who think you're doing the Henchpet Customization Team a favour by belittling others for being worried; STOP. IT.).

And again, broken record that I am all-the-time, I believe that there are meaningful and significant means to addressing these express concerns while still allowing Henchpets to have customization.  Step one is educating the community, and that's clearly a bit of a challenge . . . still think it's worthwhile, though.  So, here goes my stab at it (I welcome other people to do a better job than me.  Please!):

 

As others have said, for what it's worth; problematic content already exists in the game.  And not just from the players, either.  For example:  This Valentine's Day event have uncovered some content which I didn't realize was in the game, and HOOBOY . . . who -wrote- that!?

That problematic content/conduct -is- a problem.  No doubt about it.  And yes, I'm making a prediction with limited evidence to support it, but I do not think for an instant that Henchpet Customization will pose a significant increase to the amount of that problematic content/conduct.  It ALL needs to be addressed, but that is going to take some time.  In part because it needs to be examined, and (larger part) because people need to come to understand -why- it's problematic, and what can actually -be- done about it.

There are lines.  Some lines get crossed, and it's "no big deal," by most people's reckoning.  Some lines get crossed, and GMs receive a smattering of complaints.  And some lines get crossed, and an immediate call to action is made!

I anticipate that any problems related to Henchpet Customization will fall mostly between Tier 1 and Tier 2 on that spectrum, with (yes, it's true) occasional dips in to Tier 3.  Just as all existing content and conduct do.

I am confident that the GMs will be capable of addressing it as it comes up.  They're volunteers, and they deserve more praise and thanks for EVERYTHING that they do, and they won't always be able to address every problem with all due haste.

But I trust them to be able to handle this.  As much as they're handling everything else that is getting thrown at them.

 

Yes, that means GMs will suffer burnout.  Oh lard-oh-lard!  The burnout is a helluva a beasty!  I have personal experience with that.  Sometimes you just don't recover from burnout.

So the best way to help the GMs in that regard?  GIVE them the support you can.  Do your due diligence.  Provide meaningful and accurate reports.  And thank them for their hard work.

Most of all?  Seek out information and educate yourself.  Step forward and rise above; offer to become a GM yourself, and uphold the values of the Homecoming Team.

 

Let's pool together as a community and prove that we're capable of being responsible enough to allow everyone the chance to make something fun, compelling, enjoyable, and/or meaningful with Henchpet Customization.

 

Ted-talk meme.  Et cetera.  Please.  And thank you.

[biostem]

50 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

I do not think for an instant that Henchpet Customization will pose a significant increase to the amount of that problematic content/conduct

Can you please clarify - Do you think henchpet customization WILL cause a significant increase in "problematic content" or not?  If not, then why stress over it.  If yes, then it'd fall under the same criteria of inappropriate costumes/names/behavior as regular player character costumes/names/behavior, which is already in the rules.

 

50 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

There are lines.  Some lines get crossed, and it's "no big deal," by most people's reckoning.  Some lines get crossed, and GMs receive a smattering of complaints.  And some lines get crossed, and an immediate call to action is made!

I anticipate that any problems related to Henchpet Customization will fall mostly between Tier 1 and Tier 2 on that spectrum, with (yes, it's true) occasional dips in to Tier 3.  Just as all existing content and conduct do.

So then, again, there's no need to take special steps to limit the creativity of legitimate players by not implementing the feature.

 

50 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

It's a prickly topic, because for some people it's a reminder of traumatic lived experiences.  It's certainly "skin off" THEIR noses.  (Not meaning to personalize any of this, but that particular phrase pushed a certain button.)

As far as I can tell, City of Heroes was given a T-Teen rating, meaning that "they can contain content such as moderate amounts of violence (including small amounts of blood), mild to moderate use of language or suggestive themes, sexual content, and crude humor".  Therefore, if you are unable or unwilling to experience that kind of content, then you should not be playing CoH full stop.  I'm not saying that one should have to contend with content beyond those descriptors, but anything within those limits is fair game.  I absolutely understand that people may have experiences that cause exposure to such content to be uncomfortable or downright intolerable, and as such, either limit your play or make sure to confine your play to areas that minimize such exposure.  Asking others to tailor their play or creativity to suit you is unwarranted, (again as long as those people stick within the aforementioned guidelines and aren't going out of their way to specifically target and/or harass you).

Edited February 16, 2020 by biostem

[DR_Mechano]

On 2/14/2020 at 10:32 PM, Sakura Tenshi said:

Personally, my other concern about mastermind customization is getting the look right and such.

 

Robotics has some pretty big changes like added missile racks, they have attack animations human players don’t really have, and so on. I don’t want to put all the work into custom robots only for their animations to just not work with the upgrades, nevermind a big joy of leveling MM pets is watching their appearances progress with each upgrade (and why demons, zombies, and beasts honestly suck if you ask me)

 

As you mentioned in the rest of your post essentially preforming a pre-made model swap would be the first and awesome step. For example Robotics becomes Malta Titans, they share the same build rig as robotics henchmen AND the boss titan has pretty much all the attacks of the Assault bot, minus the flamethrower (it has missiles etc) I personally think the Malta Titans are a much cooler robotics design and would think it would be awesome if given the option even just to model swap. I know they wouldn't show upgrades on them since they're premade models but eh...I'll take cool looking giant robot over current robot with upgrades if I could.

[GamerRick]

On 2/14/2020 at 5:01 PM, MTeague said:

I'd love to have full customization

Do you know how long it takes me to do my character’s costume?  Now you want to give me the ability to customize my henchmen?  Are you trying to send me into convulsion? 😃

[gameboy1234]

On 2/14/2020 at 3:00 PM, VileTerror said:

As a technical limitation, yeah, it would kind of suck if only Gang, Mercs, Ninjas, and maybe Necro got to customize, and getting Demons, Robots, and Beasts up to that level would pose a big hurdle.  I still think it's worth putting in the effort, given this is exactly the sort of game feature which defines the core purpose of City of Heroes:  Customization of personal creations.

This is actually part of the issue for me.  It really wouldn't be fair to let some MM's customize and tell the others "too bad."  At minimum at plan should be in the works for all MMs.  I think also it might be tedious to require using the full character creator for customization.  Fewer options also means you can click through the menus faster.

 

There's also a "risk" of developer time.  200 hours to 500 hours spent on customizing MM pets that could be spend on all sort of things: new power sets, additional customization for powers, new content, etc.  Where to spend developer time?  How many players benefit from MM customization vs. adding new content?  Stuff like this only falls into the "just do it" bin if you have unlimited developer resources, otherwise one must always prioritize.

 

[Bossk_Hogg]

For me, the game is ultimately about customization and creativity. Without it, it's just a mediocre combat engine with outdated graphics. This is something that should have been included for MM's from day one. 

 

For the fearmongers - how many racist, sexist, homophobic, etc characters do you encounter? How many problematic thugs masterminds have you been harassed by? By my experience essentially none, yet the tools are in place. Why would pet customization be different? The community and devs have tools to deal with bad actors.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[VileTerror]

I'm confused that the "dev hours" line still gets used.  Yes, a couple of Devs do have roles which have them overlapping on multiple projects, so they would have the work placed on their "desk" to review and ensure the pieces fit.  But generally stuff like this is a passion project by one or two people who wouldn't be working on much of anything else.  I mean, at least I theorize as much, given OuroDev.  Haven't heard any word on the specific methodologies being used by the Homecoming Team.  Maybe it -is- a cause for concern here.

[Doc_Scorpion]

6 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

For the fearmongers - how many racist, sexist, homophobic, etc characters do you encounter?

On average, I encounter a problematic character about every other week or so.  They *are* out there.

[biostem]

47 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

On average, I encounter a problematic character about every other week or so.  They *are* out there.

"Problematic" by what metric?  If they are violating the ToS, then please report them and let the GMs/moderators/devs handle it.  If they're not in violation, then you are free to not associate with that person, but at the same time, please don't roll them in with actual rules violators...

[Black Zot]

48 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

On average, I encounter a problematic character about every other week or so.  They *are* out there.

You have a REALLY broad definition of "problematic" if it's happening that often.

[VileTerror]

As I've tried to stress in the past, the problematic stuff DOES exist, and it 

- does- 

- NOT -

- help - 

to try and undermine other members of the community when they express concerns about these problems.  Especially when the actual subject is game content customization.
Doc_Scorpion's estimate is pretty much on-par with my own.  We should all own up to the fact that there are problems.  Denying the problems won't fix them, and it just drives a wedge where there absolutely doesn't need to be one.  

 

But (broken record that I am) I still advocate for education and examination, rather than censorship.  The problems need to be addressed; not covered up or outright denied by one "side," nor blanket "protected against" by the other.

So . . . I'm going to change my tune.  As much as it pains me, since I -really, really, really- want Henchpet Customization . . . 

 

Not until we have the tools in place to give players the power to only view others' Pets as default.
Hell!  Let's go one step further.  Let's add a /costume_ignore function which "Generics" another players' appearance on the user's end.

 

I, regretfully, suspect that would be even MORE of a nightmare to code . . . but frankly, with the attitudes some people are demonstrating, it looks like it will be a necessity.  And I hate it that I feel like I've been forced in to this position.

 

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

As I've tried to stress in the past, the problematic stuff DOES exist, and it 

- does- 

- NOT -

- help - 

to try and undermine other members of the community when they express concerns about these problems.  Especially when the actual subject is game content customization.
Doc_Scorpion's estimate is pretty much on-par with my own.  We should all own up to the fact that there are problems.  Denying the problems won't fix them, and it just drives a wedge where there absolutely doesn't need to be one.  

 

But (broken record that I am) I still advocate for education and examination, rather than censorship.  The problems need to be addressed; not covered up or outright denied by one "side," nor blanket "protected against" by the other.

If something isn't against the ToS, then it isn't against the rules, and no steps need be taken.  If you are proposing that the rules be changed or expanded, then make your case, (but a new thread may be better for that).  You keep saying that people are ignoring the problem, but you haven't actually presented a problem - only vague mentions of "problematic behavior".  Clearly define what you mean and present an objective way in which we can evaluate what should or should not be depicted, (as well as including clear reasoning behind each restriction)...

Edited February 20, 2020 by biostem

[VileTerror]

From the Code of Conduct, regarding prohibited content/conduct:

"Hate speech:
"Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity
"Controversial and adult content, including:
"Sexual, provocative, pornographic, or adult content
"Violent content
"Controversial religious content
"Anything involving controversial real-world individuals or organisations
"Anything involving sensitive events, both current and historical
"These content guidelines apply to anything you can create or share in-game, on our forum..."

 

And so, yeah.  I see violations of this all the time.  But as I stated in a past post, I see there being a series of "lines," rather than just one.  Seems the Devs and GMs share my view.  But that doesn't invalidate the experiences and opinions of the players who feel that this Code should be upheld to the letter.

So, unless the Homecoming Team wants to relax this Code of Conduct (not advisable, I'd say), then I think it's entirely within reason to accept that other users have every right to call out anything which is technically prohibited.

 

And, again as I said previously, that includes content in the game itself!  The Legacy Devs skirted around it too, very rarely actually invoking their own policies on themselves.

Again:  I am personally not against things the way they are.  But to say there isn't an inherent problem with using a system of rules which the authority itself violates feels very "off" to me.  Enough to call it out.

 

I don't want censorship.  I'd like for everyone to have a game which they're comfortable playing.  If there are people vocally shouting down anyone who voices concerns with violations of the Code of Conduct as-written, then I am going to have to turn to an alternative path to promote the game being made comfortable for those players.  Hence the call for commands that give players authority to remove content they don't want to see on a personal basis.  Hell, get the tool working right, and the GM's workloads could be reduced even -if- the fears of a wave of pimps comes true (which I still hold as incredibly unlikely).

[biostem]

1 minute ago, VileTerror said:

From the Code of Conduct, regarding prohibited content/conduct:

"Hate speech:
"Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity
"Controversial and adult content, including:
"Sexual, provocative, pornographic, or adult content
"Violent content
"Controversial religious content
"Anything involving controversial real-world individuals or organisations
"Anything involving sensitive events, both current and historical
"These content guidelines apply to anything you can create or share in-game, on our forum..."

 

And so, yeah.  I see violations of this all the time.  But as I stated in a past post, I see there being a series of "lines," rather than just one.  Seems the Devs and GMs share my view.  But that doesn't invalidate the experiences and opinions of the players who feel that this Code should be upheld to the letter.

So, unless the Homecoming Team wants to relax this Code of Conduct (not advisable, I'd say), then I think it's entirely within reason to accept that other users have every right to call out anything which is technically prohibited.

 

And, again as I said previously, that includes content in the game itself!  The Legacy Devs skirted around it too, very rarely actually invoking their own policies on themselves.

Again:  I am personally not against things the way they are.  But to say there isn't an inherent problem with using a system of rules which the authority itself violates feels very "off" to me.  Enough to call it out.

 

I don't want censorship.  I'd like for everyone to have a game which they're comfortable playing.  If there are people vocally shouting down anyone who voices concerns with violations of the Code of Conduct as-written, then I am going to have to turn to an alternative path to promote the game being made comfortable for those players.  Hence the call for commands that give players authority to remove content they don't want to see on a personal basis.  Hell, get the tool working right, and the GM's workloads could be reduced even -if- the fears of a wave of pimps comes true (which I still hold as incredibly unlikely).

So your problem lies with the GMs/mods/devs not enforcing the code of conduct/ToS as you see fit?  Fine.  Even if I grant that said code of conduct should be followed *to-the-letter*, then it invalidates a large portion of the costume pieces.  One person could conclude that making a character in a swimsuit or bikini is overly sexualized.  One person could make a character that is, to them, an honest and forthright presentation of some niche community, then another person takes offense.  Should the person who made the character be sanctioned, or should the person who took offense learn more about that character/player, or simply not interact with them?  At what point does "being made comfortable" start to infringe on other people's ability to express themselves/their creativity?  You say "Hence the call for commands that give players authority to remove content they don't want to see on a personal basis." - do you mean being able to generic another person's costume?  For everyone or just yourself?  At what point does your right to not be offended exceed someone else's right to express themselves?  These are all muddy issues, but none of them should mean that we limit everyone's options...

[VileTerror]

Quote:
"Not until we have the tools in place to give players the power to only view others' Pets as default."

 

Emphasis:
"view"

 

Quote:
"Hell!  Let's go one step further.  Let's add a /costume_ignore function which "Generics" another players' appearance on the user's end."

 

Emphasis:
"on the user's end."

 

Quote:
"Hence the call for commands that give players authority to remove content they don't want to see on a personal basis."

 

Emphasis:
"on a personal basis."

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

Quote:
"Not until we have the tools in place to give players the power to only view others' Pets as default."

 

Emphasis:
"view"

 

Quote:
"Hell!  Let's go one step further.  Let's add a /costume_ignore function which "Generics" another players' appearance on the user's end."

 

Emphasis:
"on the user's end."

 

Quote:
"Hence the call for commands that give players authority to remove content they don't want to see on a personal basis."

 

Emphasis:
"on a personal basis."

Sorry I missed those.  Now, since there is not pet customization for MMs as it stands, there really couldn't be a "view as generic" option, now could there?  Include it as an option upon the release of pet customization?  Sure, why not...

[kelika2]

Joke masterminds, pimps/whores thugs, bikini babes with guns, robots as giant dildos (spectrum flesh with white slime auras), bikinis the same color as skin tone demon females.

 

yeah

sure

you will see these but these are the kinda alts that barely make it out of atlas due to "hey i did this its time to move on to another alt/another game"

 

But the masterminds who will at least make it to end game will be more creative

Ninjas who are more stealthy, more ninja like or mind controlled office workers under your command

Thugs who make Clown Masterminds a thing.  dont tell me you never thought of the arsonist to be a flame thrower or the bruiser to be a stronkman

Mercs who are more green or more official.  dont tell me you never thought of a merc mastermind who are bodyguards or longbows

Demons with the plethora of demon options we have now (hopefully with a smaller .. size radius)

Clockwork robots, motherfucking preatorian robots, cyborgs built for defeatingmaking robot masterminds

ALL CATGIRL MASTERMINDS or all cat masterminds whatever. crazy cat ladies or lunatic cat bros

RPing as the final fantasy 14's gentleman zombie squad leader or a necromancer of necromaniconimancy of ye elden yesteryear who time traveled because reasons

 

Minion customization is something that would breathe some sorta life into this dead as fuck archetype that is further outclassed by incarnate abilities and the ever evolving "speed only tf gatta get this done now" mentality of the shrinking playerbase.

[Bossk_Hogg]

17 hours ago, VileTerror said:

Quote:
"Not until we have the tools in place to give players the power to only view others' Pets as default."

 

Emphasis:
"view"

 

Quote:
"Hell!  Let's go one step further.  Let's add a /costume_ignore function which "Generics" another players' appearance on the user's end."

 

Emphasis:
"on the user's end."

 

Quote:
"Hence the call for commands that give players authority to remove content they don't want to see on a personal basis."

 

Emphasis:
"on a personal basis."

Sure, have an /ignoreall or whatever where you dont see or hear anyone not on your friends list or whatever. More or less a solo server option.

[Marine X]

I think we can all agree what is in poor taste or was intended to be as such is pretty easy to spot. Bad Taste doesn't always mean that it violates the Terms. I see a lot of marginal choices but think that only the most egregious examples that are outside the Terms are ever going to be acted upon by anyone. I think we need to have a little thicker skin on both sides of this while remembering that the game is Rated "Teen" and that people who played as children may now be bringing their children on with them to see their City.

 

70s Pimp with Women in Bikinis - Fine

Dominatrix with Men in Leather - Fine

Michael Jackson with a bunch of kids - Not Fine

Werewolf with More Werewolves - Fine

Cat Girl herding Cat Girls - Fine

KKK Leader with Clansmen - Not Fine

 

I don't think it's all that difficult to know when you are crossing the line, so just be an Adult and Police yourself, save someone else from having to do it for you.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Im curious what the nay sayers think is truly crossing the line. Becuase on Everlasting there is a MAGA SG for example, very political charged characters there. There are at least 2 vice squad themed SGs were the members are all pimps and hookers and drug dealers or at least so called cops pretending to be such. There are numerous cult themed VGs. Ive seen characters drawn from every mythology inlducing mainstream religions and they dont seem to be getting genericed. I know Jesus the Messiah for example and he has been around since at least my coming to HC.

 

CoH itself is steeped in greek mythology, which has seen a resurgence in greece of people following their ancient faith long surpressed by christians in the region. So ultimately we cant really let peoples personal views of what society deems mythology be a reason to condemn some characters but not others.

[Herotu]

I'd like to make my thugs into 1960s Batman TV show-style goons!

Edited March 4, 2020 by Herotu

[RogerWilco]

On 2/15/2020 at 3:36 AM, VileTerror said:

Well . . . again, using the meter stick of Phantom Army, other than people like myself saying "that's awesome, and brings us one step closer to Henchpet Customization" . . . is anyone vocally upset that Illusion Control got the cool new feature, while all other Control Sets were left without?  

I know my own experience in that department is simply anecdotal, since I can't see everything, but I'd like to know from others:  Have you anything to report on that front?  Or has every mention of Phantom Army in the community thus far been a matter of "Yes, please-and-thank-you!" and "that's a step in the right direction, I'm looking forward to more in the future!"  

 

Naturally, sure.  If we keep taking small steps of progress, doing one Set / Pet at a time, people will be anxious about when/if their favourite will get the treatment.  But that is also literally exactly what's going on with -everything- anyway.  Tankers got attention as a whole Archetype recently, and some people are anxious about their favourite Archetypes (not) being next.  It's kind of the nature of the beasty.  Even when things were for-profit, the Legacy Devs still had to do things in steps, generally.

 

With all that in mind . . . my earlier support of Sakura's concern is partially rescinded.  It'll definitely still suck if Beasts, Demons, and Robots don't get anything . . . but that's also kiiind of not a big deal or reasonable limiting factor for the other Sets, since EVERY upgrade and update is a progressive matter of steps over time.

Yes, cool things are good.

 

I wasn't aware Phantom Army now had this ability, I might have a look. Sounds fun.

 

Yesterday and a friend were trying to make a Popular Singer and his/her Mob of Fans as some kind of Mastermind, but we could not really make that work.

[RogerWilco]

On 2/21/2020 at 7:25 PM, Marine X said:

Michael Jackson with a bunch of kids - Not Fine

We were thinking more along Lady Gaga and her Monsters.