The Broken Brutes Effect (please buff them)

[Solarverse]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Good luck doing that with the lady gray task force.

Way to ignore the rest of what I have said...which covered that.

[VileTerror]

I mean, if someone is playing City of Heroes with DPS optimization on the mind, and they've hit that ceiling . . . 

 

Congratulations?  You won?  You "beat" City of Heroes.

 

What's the point, at that point?  If someone is playing the game strictly for the combat, and that's no longer fulfilling, why would they want to stick around?  What purpose is there to doing and redoing the same content for a person like that?

[siolfir]

11 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Not ever, eh? Makes me wonder when you started playing.

To address the question directly asked to me: I started in issue 7, which was after GDN (which was in i5 per source) and before any IOs.

 

My own personal experience was that once I learned to build a character and had SOs on them, I had to increase the difficulty to Relentless* in order feel challenged, and once IOs came along the challenge was simply "how overpowered could you get?" with the answer being limited by availability. Along comes Homecoming, with easy access to everything, and since anyone can fill almost every role, now the question is more about how quickly or how few people are needed to accomplish things rather than whether or not they can be done.

 

I have no idea where this sudden glamorization of "pre-i5" is coming from: most of the accounts I've heard from pre-GDN days were either where people were herding entire maps (because there was soooo much challenge then), people talking about being completely untouchable on their Scrappers (wow, that sounds familiar), or from people talking about forming all support teams to steamroll everything where they might let someone else come along and soak up experience.

 

So those accounts have me questioning what you were doing that makes it so that you needed a specific AT since there has been overlap in roles from day 1 and by almost all accounts (counting yours as the exception) the game was harder between issues 5 (GDN) and 9 (IOs) than either before or after.

 

* - I started redside because I was gifted a CoV box, I forget the name of the hero equivalent: it's the what would be +2/x1 with Bosses and AVs enabled using the modern adjusements but was as high as you could go at the time

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Way to ignore the rest of what I have said...which covered that.

Yeah I did ignore it, because its the same thing you have complained about 1 beelion times before.

 

Lady gray is just one instance that refutes you though.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, VileTerror said:

I mean, if someone is playing City of Heroes with DPS optimization on the mind, and they've hit that ceiling . . . 

 

Congratulations?  You won?  You "beat" City of Heroes.

 

What's the point, at that point?  If someone is playing the game strictly for the combat, and that's no longer fulfilling, why would they want to stick around?  What purpose is there to doing and redoing the same content for a person like that?

We are gifted with thousands of combinations to experience the multitude of aspects and experiences in the game.

 

All plant Troller teams, all tank teams, all shield teams.

 

Man i know of countless others in the one year Homecoming has been back.

 

Its extremely myopic if you cant find fun with what is offered here.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Oh my oh my oh me oh my I fear the Op took a blinding crit to their eye. Since HC began I have capped 2 stalkers that I kept, 1 scrapper that I capped and kept, and exactly 0 brutes. I have several more in the works but frankly they get played more for their flavor then for their power, because anyone who thinks a brute makes a stalker 2nd class as a killer is just a bloody barmy ol berk that makes this ol berk look very unberkish by comparison.

 

A brute first has to build up their rage to even be in the running with scrappers. They never are in the running with stalkers. Stalkers can consistantly one shot everything up to bosses from early game to end game. They can take out EBs in around 4 hits if the EB isnt tanky to the stalkers specific primary dmg type. They can consistently solo TFs at level because of how hardy they can be mixxed with their top tier ST DPS.

 

Brutes take effort to make tanky compared to actual tanks. Brutes dmg takes time to build up, and requires a very un team friendly( when there are actual people needing someone to front line for them, because brutes tend to just kinda charge ahead recklessly. I see brutes face plant all the time during leveling content. I see them die all the time in capped TFs as well. Maybe more often then anything cept maybe firex3 kamikaze blaster builds.

 

Yes a brute can be made godly, so can every other AT. And Brutes have never been the go to to make solo AV and GM killer builds.

 

So to you OP I as kindly as I can say, say learn to play stalkers and scrappers far more before you try to draw any conclusions.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I also want to address the rumor of early game balance and team play.

 

I began in year one. I mained blasters from the start I capped or near capped literally every blaster combo possible and deleted every one of them playing mainly solo by the time psi/ment was released for blasters, at that time my only year one toon left was my kat/sr scrapper T'Keron Valmaz.

 

Anyone saying we needed folks in those early days is lieing, it was the era of fire tanks herding entire maps to solo aoe to death. of perma end powers like  unstoppable and old MoG.  And even in that era offenders existed that could solo GMs because of the right mix of debuffs on a single build.

 

Of Fire/kin troller PLvers, and SGs using that service to grow their ranks and brag about being the biggest SGs with the most capped players.

 

Of everyone slotting 1 acc and 5 dmg in every offensive power allowing for far higher DPS then we can even do now with all that is available to us.

 

Of easy perma hasten on every build.

 

Really the only thing that any builds struggled with in that early era by my recollection is endurance issues pre stamina. Like that was it, the one big challenge that was a given to overcome by lvl 20 in build design. There was no need for clever or complex builds. No need for well balanced trinity style teams. We were the first community to start mocking wow players as it was born and rose to fame by calling trinity play wowtardism.

 

CoH players by and large have always been here for the fantasy of being a super hero. Not some mere tavern fly of an adventurer struggling to earn his next night of drunken revelry by going tomb raiding to defile the resting place of the long dead.

 

Yes one could make pure support builds, but even in year one emp defenders that never blasted tended to get called out for only using half their class.

[RCU7115]

On 2/23/2020 at 4:22 AM, AerialAssault said:

Does anyone else think it's funny that it's always Brute mains complaining that the game is too easy and not, for example, Force Field/Psionic Blast Defenders?

I agree, the should try playing a empathy/energy defender  at +4/+8 solo and tell me how easy the game is.

[Seed22]

On 2/23/2020 at 5:04 AM, Haijinx said:

Kind of lost me at Stalkers are pointless because Broots.

 

 

Hahahhahahs....wait wait OP is serious. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH. It’s the opposite way. Brutes are way way WAY lower than stalkers on DPS. Gotta know how to build em(grab the ATIO) and uh, yeah besides the AoE bit which is true for the most part, brutes can hope to hold a candle to a stalker.

[Seed22]

16 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Man, you really have shit screwed up. Did you make that up? Have you not even read the countless threads on these boards about how players are feeling unneeded because...well...they aren't needed? 

 

Go play a Healer from level 1 to 50, join teams, start teams...and watch how if you crank the difficulty up past +0, people whine about it and drop your team. Join a team and watch how everyone plows through +0 mobs....you are not needed...not even a little bit. 

 

At the end of the Task Force or whatever, watch these same players "stroke their epeens" by saying things like, "Man, we rocked them out!" ...really? At +0?

 

It doesn't get any better at high level either. Once these players are decked out in IOed out set bonus builds, only then will they crank up the difficulty...which again, a Healer or Troller is next to useless.

 

Very few content in this game drives a team to seek out Defenders and Trollers. And I for one do not find playing these same missions over and over just to feel like a contribution to the team. Epeen indeed, dude. 

 

Some of us would like to play a Controller or a Defender without feeling utterly useless...and join regular teams...not chase the same few challenging missions over and over again, just to feel challenged...needed, appreciated. 

 

The fact you say we want a bigger challenge to stroke our epeens is just priceless. When the fact is just the opposite. You about made me spit my Big Red on myself when I read that crap.

 

Even worse, I am not here trying to change a damn thing about this game, in fact I am saying that in order to get the type of game WE crave, there would need to be a Vanilla server put together. So while you are over here thinking that we just want to go stroke our epeens, you might want to have a look in the mirror and recognize your own epeen not only in game, but also on this thread.

I’ve had teams beg me for +2. Regularly. What server are you on?

[Seed22]

13 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Not ever, eh? Makes me wonder when you started playing.

Yes, not ever. I played since i6

[Solarverse]

Ya'll nay sayers have fun with that. I know better.

[Infinitum]

32 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I’ve had teams beg me for +2. Regularly. What server are you on?

Yeah I'm not sure how ive missed all that but its a rarity unless we are just in a hurry for a badge or run, to run below +2

[Saiyajinzoningen]

19 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Another relevant question is whether or not the complainers are availing themselves of all of the different challenge settings in Ouroboros to make regular content harder.

thats the thing the game already has a bunch of ways to challenge yourself. if the settings aren't enough for you try rockin only SO's. This isnt DCUO (city of sidekicks). This isnt city of clones (Marvel heroes online) This is the Original, the best, never imitated always innovative the greatest to ever live CITY OF HEROES!

 

Personally i challenge myself with 4x8 on a blaster. Is is easy? No. Is it possible? if im careful, quick and clever, yes it is.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

 

Just gonna link this here for further difficulty conversations. 

[Chris24601]

13 hours ago, Sif said:

The idea that Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, Dominators, and Masterminds are "just tagging along" is absolutely bonkers to me.

 

The only thing I can think is that you only (or nearly) play Tankers/Brutes/Scrappers, and you don't have any appreciation for how big of an impact all the other ATs are actually having - which I have to imagine can't be the case, so I don't understand how you could possibly think that. It's just so diametrically opposed to everything I've seen in CoH over the years.

Word to this.

 

I played a PUG Tinpex at base difficulty on my just alpha-slotted scrapper the other day. We had no support classes and my scrapper faceplanted more in just one of those two TFs than I did in my entire solo run to 50 (including soloing all six of the TFs for the Task Force Commander badge while in their level bands). The supposedly invincible all damage approach ran into a wall so hard we had to actually stop and regroup after a couple of TPKs.

 

Frankly, I think the people asking for “hard mode” are playing in such rarified air they can’t even see what the general playerbase looks like. I’m betting they have a multi-billion INF, fully T4’d incarnated builds and think everyone else plays that way... when 95+% of the player base is running on uncommon/rare IO sets and haven’t gotten their destiny and lore slots unlocked yet.

 

The difficulty is plenty hard enough already for the vast majority of the playerbase and the ones complaining would be complaining about the difficulty being too low even if the baseline were pushed past the point the majority of the players couldn’t even try to participate.

 

The OP says they can’t find enough people to team with interested in their version of hard mode and presume it’s because people don’t want a challenge instead of realizing that the current levels of difficulty are STILL a challenge to most players.

 

OP. You ARE the elite. The reason you can’t find enough people at your level is because there just aren’t enough players AT your level.

 

You are Blue Steel, my friend. The difficulty you want everyone to shoulder would crush them.

[Steampunkette]

Brute Max Damage: +700%

Brute Base Damage: .75

 

Stalker Max Damage: +500%

Stalker Base Damage: 1

 

So. Hand a Stalker and a Brute an attack that deals 100 damage. Stalker deals 100, Brute deals 75. Give them both a 200% damage buff. Brute is now up to 150 while the Stalker is throwing 200.

 

At max values that is 650 damage for the Brute and 600 damage for the Stalker. 

 

The "Big Difference" is that the Brute has Fury. So they can build up a maximum of 200% extra damage without using build up or other damage buffing mechanics. But let's face it, it's pretty hard to maintain more than 70% or so. So they can generally maintain 225 points of damage from that 100 damage attack that the Stalker is also throwing... But the more buffs on the team the closer to equal they get.

 

Only the Stalker also gets Crits. And guaranteed crits from Stealth. And Assassin Strike to frontload their overall DPS pretty hard. And now they've got Assassin's Opportunity to make it even -more- powerful. And also Placates for an extra crit on top.

 

Fact is, Stalkers and Brutes are at similar overall performance. The Brute edges them out on baseline survivability (outside IOs, obviously) but the Brute also has to constantly take shots to the face to maintain that damage bonus. And yeah the Brute has more AoE than the Stalker does (presuming identical power set selections) but the ST damage tends to be -way- bigger and on more important targets (Bosses)

 

The issue is with Steamroll Teams. And the issue, there, is not "Broots 2 gud" it's "Set IOs interact with different builds in wild ways resulting in a 0 risk combat scenario that allows the team to continue roflstomping their way through endless enemies"

 

I'm not suggesting we Nerf IOs or kill set bonuses or anything. They're a core part of the game, at this point, and have been a part of it longer than it ever lacked them. I'm saying that if you want a more difficult teaming situation where different roles get to shine: Put together an SG of people who have the same desire (There's a fairly high number of them, based on Forum posting) and run without IOs. Or with only basic IOs. Then the game will have it's challenge back.

 

At least until you start slotting Incarnate Powers.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Steampunkette

[Infinitum]

49 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Just gonna link this here for further difficulty conversations. 

How hard would it be where the difficulty options for bosses or none - would it be to add an eb option there too?

 

Then secondly how hard would it be to add an specialty eb that dishes out stuff like apex battle maiden does?

[Infinitum]

24 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

At least until you start slotting Incarnate Powers.

You could also turn off xp post 50 or at any point for that matter and never have to slot Incarnates.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i think u still get incarnate xp even if u turn xp off

 

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah I did ignore it, because its the same thing you have complained about 1 beelion times before.

 

Lady gray is just one instance that refutes you though.

That's not even the part I was talking about...you clearly do not read my posts. It's extremely obvious that you only read one sentence and attack that sentence instead of taking the whole thing into context. I covered your "point" (if you wanna call it that) and you came right behind that thread and acted as though I never said anything about it.

 

Here, I'll hold your hand and put things in to perspective for you...

 

Here, you tell me that basically my point is invalid because of an example of a TF that cannot be ran through like paper. You act as though a mission here, and a mission there, should be enough for people like me who prefer the older mechanics of the game. As if you threw me a bone and had yourself a little *drop the mic* moment or something.

 

Out of one side of your neck, you are completely ignoring the KNOWN power creep we have today...a power creep that everyone on this thread seems to conveniently ignore. Yet, it is widely known that power creep is the reasoning behind MOST content in this game being extremely easy. And don't say it's not widely known, because anyone with half a brain recognizes it.

 

So here we are, your little *drop the mic* statement that you *thought* you had. However, what you failed to recognize is the fact that this was already covered by me when I said, "Now, does that scenario account for every single situation or task force in game? Of course not, this is not what I am trying to say, but what I am trying to say is that this is the case with a good majority of the game's content, all the way from level 1 to level 50."

 

For reference, you can find it here...

 

Pick your mic back up...

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

I also want to address the rumor of early game balance and team play.

Rumor? I was there... I speak from experience, not rumor...

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Anyone saying we needed folks in those early days is lieing,

Oh am I now? Hmmmm...let's see...

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

it was the era of fire tanks herding entire maps to solo aoe to death.

So now I'm a liar? You act as though Fire Tanks were running rampant al over the game. Very rarely did I run into a Fire Tank who just took it upon himself and herded maps like no tomorrow. Most of them asked before doing so...and not every Tank was a herding Tank...in fact, most players did not roll Fire Tanks unless they intended to do one thing with it...farm...and even then, they were only good at herding one thing...Smashing Lethal damage mobs. You put those bad boys against anything other than Fire/Smashing or Lethal and they crumpled without a proper team. Period. Your point is meaningless in this discussion because you are speaking of one type of Tank under a controlled environment., thus making your point absolutely pointless.

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

of perma end powers like  unstoppable and old MoG.  And even in that era offenders existed that could solo GMs because of the right mix of debuffs on a single build.

Soloed GM's eh? Man, I would have loved to see videos of that! And you called me a liar?

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Of Fire/kin troller PLvers, and SGs using that service to grow their ranks and brag about being the biggest SGs with the most capped players.

Again, controlled environments, same case as the Fire Tanks....and they weren't herding anything...they were going from mob to mob, one mob at a time, never more than one mob. Again, a very illogical point of view that has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this discussion.

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Of everyone slotting 1 acc and 5 dmg in every offensive power allowing for far higher DPS then we can even do now with all that is available to us.

Hahahahaha, what!?!? Did you play the same game as me???  You fail to remember, that a Blaster 6 slotted with damage, wasn't doing crap because of the limitations of a Blaster. How many times did a Blaster run into a mob before the Tank had aggro and that Blaster face planted? Blasters in those days learned very quickly to stop trying to Tank...and when Tanks seen this type of behavior from a Blaster, the Tank would turn off his Taunt aura and let the Blaster die...it was fricken hilarious! And here you are, acting like players were gods in those days! Man, this is just too rich!

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Of easy perma hasten on every build.

Which hardly made anyone OP, and by the way? You can get Perma Hasten now...

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Really the only thing that any builds struggled with in that early era by my recollection is endurance issues pre stamina.

And guess what?!?! Healers and Kins and anything else that granted an endurance buff was desired on your teams to help with that issue! Thank you for making my point for me!

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Like that was it, the one big challenge that was a given to overcome by lvl 20 in build design. There was no need for clever or complex builds. No need for well balanced trinity style teams.

Huh? Again, I don't think we played the same game. There was very much a desire and demand for trinity teams in this game, it was like this by its very design! The game was actually designed this way! This is why we had constant threads of players complaining that it was too hard to solo unless they played a Scrapper! Seriously, did you even play the same game as me? Or are you just following the rest of the crowd and trying to jump on their band wagon?

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

We were the first community to start mocking wow players as it was born and rose to fame by calling trinity play wowtardism.

If you say so...

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Yes one could make pure support builds, but even in year one emp defenders that never blasted tended to get called out for only using half their class.

Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic.

[MunkiLord]

16 hours ago, Solarverse said:

This game (upon release) was geared toward team play in order to get through the difficult content. No AT aside from Scrappers could really solo the content very easily. The game was by design, a game where each AT brought their specialty in order to fill in the gaps of the other ATs. This is no longer the case,

See! Everyone wants to be a Scrapper. 
 

Note: This isn't directed at you Solarverse, it just happens to relate to a comment I made in another thread. 

[skoryy]

Some men just want to watch the forums burn.

[Sif]

15 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

No offense meant, but do you even play the game?  Because that's solidly my experience on all my support toons.  (Seriously, "I haven't seen that so it can't possibly exist" is a poor foundation for an argument.)  And that's at high notoriety levels not the mythical "+0" strawman you keep invoking.

It's hard to tell who you're actually talking to, but it's Solarverse that said that teams he's on refuse to play at higher than +0:

Quote

watch how if you crank the difficulty up past +0, people whine about it and drop your team

Quote

One reason off the top of my head is that players seem to really enjoy playing on +0.

It's not a strawman if it's literally the argument being made.