Focused Feedback: Dark Melee Update (Build 1)

[siolfir]

47 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

if we're talking about changing it to something else just change it to the new Dark Consumption.

True, but I was trying to keep the "fear power" in the set. I'd rather have the new Dark Consumption, too. :P

[Replacement]

22 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Bye, bye SD/Elec. Hello SD/DM.

This was the police captain's last day.  The moment you said this, I became certain this will get nerfed.

 

I always think it's stupid to balance for level 50 and Incarnates, but @Haijinx is right.  Even without double XP, DFB, AE, or anything else to speed through the experience, running the starter Origin contacts even, you still won't see level 7 long enough for this to matter.  There's no hard line, here, folks.  There's a fuzzy region where some builds will do better and others will do worse, and they will all feel "incomplete."  If I were to try and draw that line, however, I'd probably put it around level 14.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Replacement

[KelvinKole]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

I mean, you're talking a recharge of 14 seconds (soon to be 11) for Shadow Maul versus 90 seconds for Dark Consumption. Yes, DC is going to be extremely good when you aren't using it for the end boost, but pretending it's enough AoE on its own with a recharge time that long is laughable.

I assume you're playing the same game that I am. Everyone will have that down to 30 seconds or less; It's usable every spawn to nuke all the minions and lieutenants. That's enough not to need another AoE. A lot of people seem to think that more AoE = more better since the state of the game is so AoE heavy, but when everyone is done with their opening nukes you need  single target dps to clean up the tough mobs and keep a fast pace. 

 

 

[Murcielago]

1 hour ago, Microcosm said:

This right here is a problem. Shadow Maul is a garbage power that truly needs the buff, but adding other AoE to DM is unbalanced as whole. DM is one of the higher performers in single target damage, and possibly the highest performer in utility/mitigation. It should be weaker than other sets in AoE unless you want to buff the hell out of Electric's single target damage and make Chain Induction heal and Lightning Rod refill your blue bar. I'm just picking electric since quoting Murc; it's not the only comparison to make here.

 

Also, adding AoE to Dark Consumption only helps Scrappers/Tankers/Brutes, who, while having lower AoE than other sets at least have any AoE outside of Shadow Maul. Stalkers is where DM is actually hurting for AoE..

What I read out of this, buff Electric Melee. 

[Troo]

4 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

benefits Stalkers, the class that has one of the lowest Aoe potentials

this is as intended, isn't it?

[KelvinKole]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

this is as intended, isn't it?

Stalkers having low Aoe potential? Once upon a time, yes. The original version of stalkers had their power sets stripped of Aoe attacks because they were supposed to be a stealthy assassin type with high single target burst potential. Later on, Stalkers were pretty much remade into slightly less durable Scrappers with higher and more controlled crit potential. Power sets that were ported to stalkers after those changes kept their Aoe attacks; only the original sets lack Aoe. 

[ScarySai]

I personally don't see the changes as broken, it's incredibly strong for a secondary like shield, that had really good synergy with the old DM, perhaps you could make the case that it's growing in power rather fast, but you need to remember that /shield isn't the only armor option available to dark melee, and with most other armor sets, it's performance is wanting.

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

There's a fuzzy region where some builds will do better and others will do worse, and they will all feel "incomplete."  If I were to try and draw that line, however, I'd probably put it around level 14.

I'd say 18 or 20. Enough important primary and second abilities are usually available at this time to determine if the character is right for you, only the most back-loaded sets are still 'crippled' around this point, Masterminds are a good example. A lot of the time, they're kinda crap until 32.

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by ScarySai

[Leogunner]

I have not played the changes yet as for some reason, the connection to the server drops after character creation.

 

From reading the various input: I worry about the precedence this has.  Having Dark Consumption on a 90sec cooldown is great.  Modifying the +END in exchange seems completely fair.  Bolstering the damage to such a degree while maintaining its utility? I dunno.  If anything, I'd actually reverse the bonus damage component (doing more damage the lower your endurance is) because it'd actually aid builds that need it and making it slightly harder to game.  I just feel it's far too easy to min/max to push it to absurd levels.

 

Considering what DM is at now, what kind of changes would be required to make Martial Arts match up to DM in AoE, ST damage and utility?  That's what I'm worried about.  Rather than being quirky, utilitarian with it's bag of tricks and decently effective, it goes into ludicrous territory by simply stacking lots of recharge bonuses which is exactly what everyone does.

 

It looks like homogenization...especially with Shadow Maul with more standardized cone, damage/rech/cost and animation.  I'm not a fan of the faster SM (I think someone made a jojo reference there but it kinda takes away that feeling by shortening it).  The wider cone seems excessive too.  90 degrees would have been fine (doubled instead of nearly tripled) and leave the a slight cost penalty.  As is, I think DM went from bottom for AoE to middle of the road rivaling Fire Melee, Ice Melee, Kinetic Melee...but with the utilities of great END management, a heal, -ToHit and Fear + a damage typing rarely resisted.

 

Again, what would Martial Arts need to match this change? lol

[Troo]

@KelvinKole

When you say 'only the original' it is actually about half and half stalker primaries with or with out aoe.

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Troo
added @

[Haijinx]

SR scrappers get no AOE protection until level 32.

 

SS tankers get no Melee AOE attack until level 38, Brutes are lucky they get it at 32.

 

Stone Armor ...

 

SOA have to respec at level 24 .. 

 

And so on

 

 

 

 

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

If anything, I'd actually reverse the bonus damage component (doing more damage the lower your endurance is) because it'd actually aid builds that need it and making it slightly harder to game.  I just feel it's far too easy to min/max to push it to absurd levels.

You're sacrificing utility for damage, especially in situations where you don't need the endurance, but that ability is sitting off CD doing nothing on your bars. I don't get the complaint, here. A worthless ability and a once-a-minute ability of questionable value are now not total junk. There are claws stalkers with better AOE than DM without shield backing it.

 

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Considering what DM is at now, what kind of changes would be required to make Martial Arts match up to DM in AoE, ST damage and utility?

Plenty of suggestions on that front have already been made about that in more appropriate forums.

[Sovera]

Man, people keep going about DM/Shield and I'm just DM/Bio with three endurance recovery tools (Inexhaustible, Dark Consumption, DNA Siphon) and four heals (heal proc in Dark Consumption, Siphon Life, Ablative Shield, DNA Siphon), ON TOP of the absorb, regen, ON TOP of the -ToHit.

 

Can we say unkillable hardcore soloer?

 

Man, I totally don't want to continue leveling my second Claws/Bio I was doing Ironman challenge (no AH marketing, no inf transfers, no IO transfers, no farm maps, just earn Merits and inf playing the game) just for kicks since I WANT this combo.

 

Arrrrrgh. And now to wait N weeks before it comes out. Ugh.

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Man, people keep going about DM/Shield and I'm just DM/Bio with three endurance recovery tools (Inexhaustible, Dark Consumption, DNA Siphon) and four heals (heal proc in Dark Consumption, Siphon Life, Ablative Shield, DNA Siphon), ON TOP of the absorb, regen, ON TOP of the -ToHit.

 

Can we say unkillable hardcore soloer?

 

Man, I totally don't want to continue leveling my second Claws/Bio I was doing Ironman challenge (no AH marketing, no inf transfers, no IO transfers, no farm maps, just earn Merits and inf playing the game) just for kicks since I WANT this combo.

 

Arrrrrgh. And now to wait N weeks before it comes out. Ugh.

Claws/bio is my favorite scrapper, and clears missions like if you gave Zoom a chainsaw. 

 

Dark has viable AoE now, and much better Pylon potential than a claws scrapper, but claws will still absolutely destroy dark on any given AOE fight. People are heralding this like it's the next TW/bio, it really isn't.

Edited February 27, 2020 by ScarySai

[Leogunner]

4 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

You're sacrificing utility for damage, especially in situations where you don't need the endurance, but that ability is sitting off CD doing nothing on your bars. I don't get the complaint, here. A worthless ability and a once-a-minute ability of questionable value are now not total junk. There are claws stalkers with better AOE than DM without shield backing it.

The problem is, the game isn't difficult enough to even need the utility.  So it makes this change into a focused homogenization of sets.  The +END component can practically be ignored once you reach a certain point and it just becomes a high powered AoE.  No risk.  Maximum reward.  No tactics.  No consideration for timing.  Just spam.

 

The reason I suggested reversing the bonus damage is to justify it doing as much damage as it is capable of.  If you're not capable of maxing out the damage every time (or, gods forbid, wait before using it), things like powers with crashes and what not could suck less and diversify combat.

 

11 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Plenty of suggestions on that front have already been made about that in more appropriate forums.

I've read them.  I don't recall many of them pushing MA to the degree of damage and utility as this set has.  Shadow Maul by itself likely out damages the AoE of MA now.  Would Dragon's Tail need to become a nuke with wider range?  Would a ST attack have to become a cone?

 

I'm only arguing the change is drastic.  I don't even care if Dark Consumption stays the same.  Changing Shadow Maul into Negative Energy Slice (from Broad Sword) with -ToHit backed by the rest of the set's utility?  Drastic.

[ScarySai]

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

The problem is, the game isn't difficult enough to even need the utility.  So it makes this change into a focused homogenization of sets. 

Not really, no.

 

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

The +END component can practically be ignored once you reach a certain point and it just becomes a high powered AoE.

That's your reward for reaching the point where end is no longer an issue. What's the problem? This thing doesn't hit nearly as hard as people hype it up with just 25% of your bar gone. This thing isn't a total NUKE unless you are capped on end, which is far more of a restriction than most better, spammable AOEs have to deal with, especially after the crash removals on nukes.

 

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

The reason I suggested reversing the bonus damage is to justify it doing as much damage as it is capable of.  If you're not capable of maxing out the damage every time (or, gods forbid, wait before using it), things like powers with crashes and what not could suck less and diversify combat.

You're already punishing people who put time into maximizing their endurance before using the ability with this suggestion. You're simply doing it in reverse, rewarding poor endurance management while removing the utility vs damage tradeoff, which strikes me as nonsensical.

Edited February 27, 2020 by ScarySai

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

That's your reward for reaching the point where end is no longer an issue using Ageless Destiny which will also make your mini-nuke come back that much faster, as well.

Fixed that for you - that's just going with the common "high dps" route, not even taking into account the variety of powersets that let you refill or mostly ignore endurance.

 

I'm not arguing whether I think the values should be reversed or not, but it's hardly a reward when it's just handed out to everyone.

[ScarySai]

6 minutes ago, siolfir said:

16 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

That's your reward for reaching the point where end is no longer an issue Using an endurance buffing ability that can't be used while leveling, is only accessible at exemp level 45 if you choose to take it and is intended to turn your character into a god.

"lol handouts."

Fixed that for you.

Edited February 27, 2020 by ScarySai

[Leogunner]

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Not really, no.

 

That's your reward for reaching the point where end is no longer an issue. What's the problem? This thing doesn't hit nearly as hard as people hype it up with just 25% of your bar gone. This thing isn't a total NUKE unless you are capped on end, which is far more of a restriction than most better, spammable AOEs have to deal with, especially after the crash removals on nukes.

 

You're already punishing people who put time into maximizing their endurance before using the ability with this suggestion. You're simply doing it in reverse, rewarding poor endurance management while removing the utility vs damage tradeoff, which strikes me as nonsensical.

The perspective of "punishment" is subjective.  Those that maximized their build likely have access to the skill more often and thus capable of using it more often.  If we're considering the philosophy of risk vs reward, it's not rewarding "poor endurance management" (as you can run low on END by just fighting longer or facing enough opposition) but rewarding good power usage.  Holding off on using the skill until you drop below a certain threshold when you may NEED the benefit would mean practicing restraint which also directly lowers the damage the skill would produce due to not being used off recharge.

 

If you actually consider someone else's perspective, maybe you wouldn't see it as nonsensical.  A min/maxed build will turn this into a moderate and often AoE skill for DM.  A non-min/maxed build that actually can utilize the utility gets a not-so-often mini-nuke.  You end up getting more DPS with the min/maxed build vs just completely leaving standard builds in the dust.

 

And I realize that the damage and recharge isn't that great on DC...that it becomes a nuke-like AoE capable of near 1-shotting bosses with crits isn't standard.  It's drastic.  Especially when considering DM was once bottom of the barrel for AoE.

[Haijinx]

Actually think the damage inverse to End idea is inspired.

 

One thing you look to do when low on end is to knock a bunch of stuff out quickly to catch your breath.  

 

But I can't kill stuff faster when low on End ... because of how DC works .. but I can fill my blue bar.

 

You still run low on End sometimes with high end builds.  It just takes a lot more steamrolling to get there. 

 

 

[Haijinx]

Also DM has spent long enough time in the woodshed with No AOE.

 

Its not even one of the top ST performers anymore. 

 

 

[ScarySai]

8 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

The perspective of "punishment" is subjective.

In this context, it isn't. Any build with ageless cannot use the damage with your suggestion, any build with good recovery is gimping it's AOE, any build with endurance reduction is also potentially gimping itself. It's totally backwards, it is nonsense. The current idea makes sense, you can argue it does to well, and I disagree, but the philosophy behind it makes sense. Your idea does not.

 

8 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

If you actually consider someone else's perspective, maybe you wouldn't see it as nonsensical.

I've considered it, and have come to the conclusion that it is backwards and nonsensical. It's nothing personal, I'm sure you're a nice guy, but the idea is not a good one.

 

8 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

And I realize that the damage and recharge isn't that great on DC...that it becomes a nuke-like AoE capable of near 1-shotting bosses with crits isn't standard.  It's drastic.  Especially when considering DM was once bottom of the barrel for AoE.

You're not going to one shot a boss on +3/4 - especially without critting a fully saturated mire+AAO (Shield only), but if that's the metric we're using, I can name you a few things that not only do more damage in the same amount of time, but are up far more frequently.

 

And that goes double if DM isn't being paired with /shield.

Edited February 27, 2020 by ScarySai

[siolfir]

8 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Fixed that for you.

Nice of you to ignore the rest of it that mentions, and I quote, "the variety of powersets that let you refill or mostly ignore endurance" and paraphrase it as "lol handouts." Those options are available much earlier. There are also team buffs that provide sufficient recovery that you'll never worry about endurance while they're active, too, but I was thinking more along the lines of solo performance.

 

The whole point was that it's extremely easy to mitigate endurance consumption through any of a variety of ways through a variety of build choices, and the most common and effective one for people who are attempting to maximize their damage is to run Ageless because even at its lowest value - the one that's permanent at tier 4 - it's still quadruple the base recovery of Stamina. But hey, sure, knock yourself out ignoring the point.

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

Nice of you to ignore the rest of it that mentions

Should follow your own advice.

 

Had you been less disrespectful I might have finished reading your post and be humoring a discussion with you right now.

Edited February 27, 2020 by ScarySai

[Leogunner]

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

In this context, it isn't.

It is.  Should I describe what "subjective" means?

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Any build with ageless cannot use the damage with your suggestion, any build with good recovery is gimping it's AOE, any build with endurance reduction is also potentially gimping itself. It's totally backwards, it is nonsense. The current idea makes sense, you can argue it does to well, and I disagree, but the philosophy behind it makes sense. Your idea does not.

Ok, I think I have to explain how what you just said is nonsense.

 

Any build that builds for good recovery likely already has capable slotting options.  They can maximize the damage of their skills with slotting.  They can use their skills with reckless abandon.  They can push the fight far longer.  Lowering the possible damage of 1 skill is, in no way, gimping anything.  I could define the slang use of gimping, but hopefully you see my perspective on this.

 

I can understand your perspective but I just disagree that a build that can push out DC over 25% more often, survive far more, retain Soul Drain uptime much more and utilize other AoEs with higher DPS with the Soul Drain boost more often would somehow be "gimped" just because Dark Consumption just does regular damage.

 

16 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I've considered it

 

No you didn't.

 

It's fine though.  I'm sure the most effective slotting of DC will min/max with procs anyway, benefitting from heighten damage, not being too penalized because the majority of its recharge will be brought down by set bonuses and maximized recovery will just add more benefit ontop.  Like I said before, I just think it's too much.  I'd prefer to just lower the damage so the set can have it's ST boosted in some way.  The precedence this sets makes is that every offensive set is going to need a nuke.

[Microcosm]

17 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Also DM has spent long enough time in the woodshed with No AOE.

 

Its not even one of the top ST performers anymore. 

 

It is still a top performer, it's just not the ridiculously pay to win that Titan Weapons was. It beats out most the rest of the sets while also having a consistent heal, -tohit and end recovery. It is a great set today, with the exception of Shadow Maul. We can go through and remove the weakness of every single set if that's what people want, but the game will suck after that.