Give Ms. Liberty a Break

[Replacement]

I mean, it's just a shard of a universe or something, but Ms. Liberty can also be found in Echo: Atlas Park.

[rebel_1812]

On 2/29/2020 at 3:00 PM, Solarverse said:

I would rather bring Statesman back to Live in a TF and place him in Atlas.

I am for that too.  I don't like the idea of the lead hero dying to anyone other than the lead villain.  Lord Arachnos should be seething with the story arc they dropped on us; some sidekick tier villain kills off his age old rival.  I would like to see Statesman brought back and take his rightful place back in Atlas Park and for Statesman TF.  It would also give a chance at more original content to make a TF that explains his resurrection. 

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, rebel_1812 said:

I am for that too.  I don't like the idea of the lead hero dying to anyone other than the lead villain.  Lord Arachnos should be seething with the story arc they dropped on us; some sidekick tier villain kills off his age old rival.  I would like to see Statesman brought back and take his rightful place back in Atlas Park and for Statesman TF.  It would also give a chance at more original content to make a TF that explains his resurrection. 

Sadly for us, it would seem that you and I are in the minority on this one.

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Sadly for us, it would seem that you and I are in the minority on this one.

 

I never felt that Statesman should be killed off.  Even the story felt less a matter of "This is a good story" and more of "Let's kill off Jack's characters"

[Solarverse]

12 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I never felt that Statesman should be killed off.  Even the story felt less a matter of "This is a good story" and more of "Let's kill off Jack's characters"

My personal opinion; If Jack had not turned out to be a complete A-Hole, Statesman would have never been written off, he would have grown mentally and eventually been a much more likeable personality. For me, it was not his personality, but for what he stood for.

 

Example, Batman is a complete ass, both in and out of costume. However, what he stands for is what makes him great...yet nobody but Superman fans hate on Batman...so why hate on Statesman? To each their own, just my opinion.

[Heraclea]

My vote is to have Heraclea's arch-villain nemesis, Mold Wall, to be reformed and be the Atlas Park trainer. 

[Heraclea]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Example, Batman is a complete ass, both in and out of costume. However, what he stands for is what makes him great...yet nobody but Superman fans hate on Batman...

Batman has been the victim of bad writing ever since Frank Miller got a hold of him and turned him from the World's Greatest Detective to Wolverine with gadgets.  Batman needs to get his Adam West back, is all. 

[Solarverse]

46 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Batman has been the victim of bad writing ever since Frank Miller got a hold of him and turned him from the World's Greatest Detective to Wolverine with gadgets.  Batman needs to get his Adam West back, is all. 

That was actually my point. Statesman was a "pompous ass" as quoted by more than a few posters. However, he is only a pompous ass because that is the way the writers wrote him. A traumatic event can take place (which it has....death is pretty traumatic) and cause almost anyone to take a different outlook on life. It's actually very common for people who are killed, experience afterlife, then are brought back, to take a completely different outlook on life and change, most often leaving hate a negative emotions behind. No reason this could not happen with Statesman...or even Batman for that matter.

[Zepp]

The Statesman was the most annoying character, which is why he looks like the illegitimate love child of the most annoying DC hero (Superman) and the most annoying Marvel hero (Captain America)...

That being said, I would be fine with bringing him back. Either that or, when there is more time/resources, doing what they did after Superman died and introducing four much more interesting characters in Steel, Cyborg Superman, Superboy, and Eradicator... okay, Superboy was kinda lame, but the other three were cool. A spin-off storyline with five alt-Statesmen (one for each origin) with the winner getting placed in charge of the Statesman TF, and a runner-up being placed in charge of Fort Trident.

 

I know, pie-in-the-sky thinking, but just a thought:
Magic: Raguel, Angel of Justice - Energy Blast / Invulnerability Sentinel
Mutant: Helix - Radiation Melee / Bio Armor Brute

Natural: Justice, Long Arm of the Law - Street Justice / Willpower Scrapper

Science: Statesboy (clone of Marcus Cole) - Invulnerability / Super Strength Tank

Technology: Phalanx, Line in the Sand - Gravity Control / Martial Assault Dominator

 

This is just a quick concept, thoughts?

[dangeraaron10]

Clearly, Ice Mistral should replace Ms. Liberty in Atlas and Sirocco should be the contact of a new Hero Task Force.

 

That Heel-Face-Turn was almost there and the game got canned.  

 

Or, you know, Back Alley Brawler is there, too.

 

Or Ms. Liberty is perfectly fine being there, too.  

[rebel_1812]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I never felt that Statesman should be killed off.  Even the story felt less a matter of "This is a good story" and more of "Let's kill off Jack's characters"

 

That's just it.  So much of the hate towards the character is based on Jack.  End of the day he was the lead hero for the game which was killed off but some no name villain for no reason other than shock value.  It would be great if the fans could undo this mistake.

[Player2]

Again, I would just like to restate that I don't have a hatred for the character nor is my original suggestion anything to do with the developer.  I see the character as having been killed off and bringing him back would make me hate him for being just another lame death cheater.  And I'm not suggesting getting rid of Ms. Liberty, just that she should get some help instead of holding down 3 jobs by herself.

[rebel_1812]

2 hours ago, Player2 said:

Again, I would just like to restate that I don't have a hatred for the character nor is my original suggestion anything to do with the developer.  I see the character as having been killed off and bringing him back would make me hate him for being just another lame death cheater.  And I'm not suggesting getting rid of Ms. Liberty, just that she should get some help instead of holding down 3 jobs by herself.

Lame death cheater?  You mean based resurrectionist.  Optimus Prime and Superman aren't lame, they are the based.

[BrandX]

9 hours ago, rebel_1812 said:

 

That's just it.  So much of the hate towards the character is based on Jack.  End of the day he was the lead hero for the game which was killed off but some no name villain for no reason other than shock value.  It would be great if the fans could undo this mistake.

Superman came back from the dead, so I don't see why Statesman couldn't.

 

However, I do recall reading, the idea of Tyrant taking up Statesman's place.

[Chris24601]

10 hours ago, Zepp said:

The Statesman was the most annoying character, which is why he looks like the illegitimate love child of the most annoying DC hero (Superman) and the most annoying Marvel hero (Captain America)...

That being said, I would be fine with bringing him back. Either that or, when there is more time/resources, doing what they did after Superman died and introducing four much more interesting characters in Steel, Cyborg Superman, Superboy, and Eradicator... okay, Superboy was kinda lame, but the other three were cool. A spin-off storyline with five alt-Statesmen (one for each origin) with the winner getting placed in charge of the Statesman TF, and a runner-up being placed in charge of Fort Trident.

This is proof of "different strokes for different folks."

 

Superman and Captain America are among my favorite DC/Marvel heroes precisely because of their strong moral stands and being paragons meant for others to aspire to... with pre-Flashpoint Superboy (+Wonder Girl and Krypto; BFF's Tim and Bart as third and fourth) being probably my favorite DC/Marvel characters ever.

 

Of the rest only Steel as a guy inspired to heroism by Superman had any resonance for me. Cyborg and Eradicator even before their villain reveals were pure 90's Dork Age schlock, specifically created by the writing team to lampoon fanboy ideas of how to make Superman "better" (with each one save Steel actually falling short morally in some critical way and Steel's failure simply being that human tech just couldn't actually compete well with Kryptonian physiology).

 

Basically, the entire story arc of death and return was a big THIS IS WHY THE REAL SUPERMAN IS IMPORTANT!!! directed at the fans (and it worked, sales after the arc were notably stronger for the Superman titles, with the c. 2000 back to basics revamp that focused on strong storytelling using the classic characters being the next time his sales strengthened considerably).

 

So no... if they're going to bring Statesman back it needs to be the REAL Statesman or its missing the point.

 

That said, I don't think they should bring him back mainly because YOU are supposed to be the main character in City of Heroes universe and, as ham-handed as they were with it, they set up States death as a "finally he can rest" event rather than as something that was a tragedy. Yanking him out of the afterlife with his beloved wife and daughter (who had lived a full life of 72 years before she died) would actually be a punishment for him at this stage. rather than some grand return.

 

Despite surface similarities to Superman (actually he's closer to a Captain Marvel/Shazam expy with his powered by the gods and lightning), he's actually much closer to the pathos of MCU Steve Rogers as a man stuck out of his time. He's a very old man in a young body whose lost virtually all of his formative friends to old age, but felt too duty-bound to just give up because he thought the world depended on him (the default flaw of every Marcus Cole) and the realization that the world will keep spinning without him is actually a great relief and why when you find him dead he has a small smile on his face.

 

Let the old man rest and be happy in the afterlife that is confirmed to exist in the CoH Universe; its time for new heroes (your own) to rise in his place.

[Zepp]

The two problems I have with Superman and Captain America are that they are vanilla / nigh flat characters and that they aren't ethical. Moral as fuck, but their morals aren't based on ethical principles. They are based on a very specific moral framework that they fail to question. The lack of intellect in these characters make them seem more like daft moralistic sociopaths than heroes, in that way they are worse than Batman, because at least he considers his decisions occasionally.

Actually, for the first five seasons of Smallville, I was struck by how similar the characters of Lex Luthor and Bruce Wayne were. Of course Lex Luthor is more intelligent and ethical, while being less violent, than Bruce Wayne in the first 4-5 seasons of Smallville, but definitely the only reason that series was worth watching. The latter seasons of that series were much more difficult to get through, especially when Chloe became less and less present.

Steel was my favorite as well. That being said, the Eradicator's background and story arc are extremely interesting, and he tended to be more rational and interesting than Superman. The Cyborg Superman (made a villain because the robot/cyborg is almost by default going to be made a villain in American fiction, and DC has a tendency to villainize intelligent people as well...) had an interesting story arc, but the villain "twist" seemed unearned and unrealistic. He has become an interesting villain, but his short tenure as hero was interesting as well. Superboy, my least favorite of the four, seemed to be a reboot for younger audiences that was slightly more interesting than Superman, but only slightly.

[Donkyhotay]

While I wouldn't mind putting someone else in Ms. Liberty's place in AP in order to give her more focus as leader of the Vindicators or even taking a place in the Freedom Phalanx with Statesmans death, I'd be hesitant to replace her with someone that only makes sense in the end-game, like Tyrant as Statesman for example. Remember that while many of us have played CoX for years and are familiar with updates to the story/lore, like Statesmans death, we do get new people who aren't familiar with CoX lore. Especially since AP is where almost all newbies show up and is the first thing they see and their first encounter with lore/stories. I think it'd be a bit jarring to them to encounter "Statesman", then find out he dies but is still in AP. Even if we go with the "Tyrant becomes Statesman" idea it'd be a bit odd until it happened in-game. Now having BaB, another hero from the lore that isn't in use (Maybe Horus or even long lost Thunderclap?), or even a newly made hero as part of an intro of new stories, arcs and lore would be fine. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Donkyhotay

[Lines]

38 minutes ago, Donkyhotay said:

While I wouldn't mind putting someone else in Ms. Liberty's place in AP in order to give her more focus as leader of the Vindicators or even taking a place in the Freedom Phalanx with Statesmans death, I'd be hesitant to replace her with someone that only makes sense in the end-game, like Tyrant as Statesman for example. 

I agree, and would include Hero 1 to the blacklist, sadly. There is far too much in the game referring to how dead he is and you visit his memorial a bunch of times.

 

It would be a bit confusing if a new player is introduced directly to him and then later encounters him as the honoree.

 

BaBs would have my vote.

[Donkyhotay]

30 minutes ago, Lines said:

I agree, and would include Hero 1 to the blacklist, sadly. There is far too much in the game referring to how dead he is and you visit his memorial a bunch of times.

 

It would be a bit confusing if a new player is introduced directly to him and then later encounters him as the honoree.

 

BaBs would have my vote.

Didn't think of Hero 1 but yes he would be even worse then Statesman that way.

 

BaB seems like the obvious choice, I even mentioned him before, but thinking about it there's one good argument to not use him as the AP trainer. It's a long shot, but I've always hoped that as the devs get better that they would be able to create new maps/arcs and that we would eventually "take back Galaxy City". This wouldn't be like what one of the other servers is doing and bring back the original Galaxy City as it was, this would be a "new" destroyed Galaxy City still in the grips of the Shivans and either a trial or hazard zone. If that ever happened you'd absolutely expect BaB to come out of retirement and help lead the charge to take it back. If it was up to me, and assuming it was a hazard zone, I'd make him the trainer there and put him in his old spot, even though it's completely destroyed with Shivans all around, and have him say something indicating that that's *his* spot and no Shivan is going to force him from it again. 

 

I know that will almost certainly never happen, or if it does it'll be years away, but I can hope. 

[Player2]

10 hours ago, rebel_1812 said:

Lame death cheater?  You mean based resurrectionist.  Optimus Prime and Superman aren't lame, they are the based.

Optimus Prime is a robot.  Robots can be repaired and reactivated.

 

Superman's resurrection just proved how much of a lame shock value tactic death is for main characters.  Despite what the plans were, we all knew Superman wouldn't stay dead, so it meant that his death completely lacked meaning, as did the huge battle leading up to it.  It was completely dismissable among comic book stories.

[Player2]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

I agree, and would include Hero 1 to the blacklist, sadly. There is far too much in the game referring to how dead he is and you visit his memorial a bunch of times.

 

It would be a bit confusing if a new player is introduced directly to him and then later encounters him as the honoree.

 

BaBs would have my vote.

With a little work, Hero 1 could work.  There is tech in the game that changes environment depending on the lead player (in teams, or just each solo individual) and their accomplishments.  Such as the first mission for Matthew Habashy, where you have to go put down some Hellions and then when you return to that spot Hellions are under control by the police.  When you finish out the extended arc, his wife will be standing next to him next to City Hall.

 

Maybe have... whoever... standing in the Ms. Liberty spot in AP, and all of the Hero 1 references work fine... but once the player completes a task force or whatever to help restore Hero 1, the old trainer disappears for that player and is replaced by Hero 1.

[Lines]

1 minute ago, Player2 said:

With a little work, Hero 1 could work.  There is tech in the game that changes environment depending on the lead player (in teams, or just each solo individual) and their accomplishments.  Such as the first mission for Matthew Habashy, where you have to go put down some Hellions and then when you return to that spot Hellions are under control by the police.  When you finish out the extended arc, his wife will be standing next to him next to City Hall.

 

Maybe have... whoever... standing in the Ms. Liberty spot in AP, and all of the Hero 1 references work fine... but once the player completes a task force or whatever to help restore Hero 1, the old trainer disappears for that player and is replaced by Hero 1.

I was wondering exactly this after I made the last post. I'd love Hero 1 to take an active role in the world, and this would be a wonderful way to make the world feel a little bit alive around the player's actions.

 

Plus, I'm all for having a Brit in front of city hall. Represent!

[Donkyhotay]

51 minutes ago, Player2 said:

With a little work, Hero 1 could work.  There is tech in the game that changes environment depending on the lead player (in teams, or just each solo individual) and their accomplishments.  Such as the first mission for Matthew Habashy, where you have to go put down some Hellions and then when you return to that spot Hellions are under control by the police.  When you finish out the extended arc, his wife will be standing next to him next to City Hall.

 

Maybe have... whoever... standing in the Ms. Liberty spot in AP, and all of the Hero 1 references work fine... but once the player completes a task force or whatever to help restore Hero 1, the old trainer disappears for that player and is replaced by Hero 1.

That's not a bad idea at all, would also work for other characters such as "Tyrant as Statesman" for example. But I do like the idea of Hero 1 coming back since his "death" was such a big deal back in issue 1 (the no wearing capes thing). Just absolutely would not want to start newbies out with him. 

[VileTerror]

New Proposal! 

Put Jimmy in Ms. Liberty's spot!

A little all-white magical cat.  

 

Problem solved!

[Infinitum]

20 hours ago, Zepp said:

especially when Chloe became less and less present.

I think she was too busy running a sex trafficking cult.