Buff +Recovery set bonuses

[arcane]

4 hours ago, MTeague said:

I've never had a character at lvl 30+ who had ongoing endurance problems.  Never mind Incarnates.  But I do slot IO sets as I level

Would stronger set bonuses be nice?  Perhaps.

Do I think they're needed?  No.

 

But I will say the VAST majority of my characters are using a Panacea Proc, and a Perf Shifter Proc, and usually one Perf Shifter:End Mod to go with that proc.

And I do slot for the "end discount to all powers" set bonuses, from Unbreakable Guard, Reactive Defenses, Annihilation, and Preventative Medcine, whenever I can work them into a build.

On the contrary, I find myself typically 4 slotting both health and stamina and still having to slow my roll on occasion. But between the options of Vigor, Cardiac, Support, and Ageless, there’s no longer any excuse for letting that stop you 45+. Below that? Maybe, but since when are lowbies supposed to be optimal.

[MTeague]

1 minute ago, arcaneholocaust said:

On the contrary, I find myself typically 4 slotting both health and stamina and still having to slow my roll on occasion. But between the options of Vigor, Cardiac, Support, and Ageless, there’s no longer any excuse for letting that stop you 45+. Below that? Maybe, but since when are lowbies supposed to be optimal.

It's possible you may go Wild and Crazy with recharge far beyond what I do then. 

I don't mind using an atttack chain with 5-6 different powers in it, whereas others focus on having Insane amounts of recharge to continually pump out their very best (and usually semi-expensive) AE attacks pretty much nonstop.

 

I could certainly see something like that causing you to burn through END at a far faster rate than I do. 

I'm also typically doing story arcs, not farming maps, if that might also factor into it.  I have some travel time between mob pack #1 and mob pack #2.

[arcane]

Just now, MTeague said:

It's possible you may go Wild and Crazy with recharge far beyond what I do then. 

I don't mind using an atttack chain with 5-6 different powers in it, whereas others focus on having Insane amounts of recharge to continually pump out their very best (and usually semi-expensive) AE attacks pretty much nonstop.

 

I could certainly see something like that causing you to burn through END at a far faster rate than I do. 

I'm also typically doing story arcs, not farming maps, if that might also factor into it.  I have some travel time between mob pack #1 and mob pack #2.

Yeah I often play farm maps on non-farm toons just because I prefer the outdoor fights. And tend to slot a little endurance reduction but never very much (20-30%). And like things like stormies and so on. None of which is a problem with incarnates now and I’ll just drop some toggles at lower levels. No one really needs to run their leadership toggles at low levels for instance.

[Vanden]

I think some of you guys are missing the forest for the trees. The point is not to solve end problems for all characters, it's to make Recovery set bonuses worth having. Right now you could replace every Recovery set bonus in the game with absolutely nothing and 90% or more of players would not notice the difference.

[Vanden]

I decided to try to get some hard numbers on what a typical character's endurance costs are like. I rolled up a Dark/Dark Brute on the beta server, and attacked a RWZ dummy for 60 seconds. Each attack had 66.7% recharge enhancement from SOs, and I used them in an essentially random order to try to get an "average" character's performance. This is what a "typical" minute of combat would look like at high level:

 

Power	# of Casts	End Cost per Cast	Total End Cost over 60s
Shadow Punch	11	4.37	48.07
Smite	8	6.86	54.88
Shadow Maul	4	11.02	44.08
Siphon Life	6	10.19	61.14
Midnight Grasp	4	11.96	47.84
Soul Drain	1	15.6	15.6
Dark Embrace	(Toggle)	0.21/s	12.6
Obsidian Shield	(Toggle)	0.21/s	12.6
Murky Cloud	(Toggle)	0.21/s	12.6

 

All told, that character would spend 309.41 endurance in 60 seconds, including his 3 toggles. Now let's look at what contribution Recovery set bonuses will make towards covering that. The character with the most +Recovery from set bonuses Redlynne posted about had 15% from set bonuses. That's 15 endurance per minute, or 16.5 if you have both endurance boosting accolades. Really just a drop in the bucket. My proposed 2.5x buff to bonuses would bring that up to 37.5 endurance per minute (or 41.25 with the accolades), still only a small portion of the total cost, but an actually appreciable one.

 

Simply putting an SO's worth of end cost reduction in every attack (not the toggles or Soul Drain) would take the total costs down to 245.46, a much bigger impact than the current Recovery set bonuses could ever hope to have. (Literally! That's a reduction of 63.95 endurance cost per minute, and it's impossible to slot enough Recovery set bonuses to reach that number.)

Edited October 21, 2020 by Vanden

[Galaxy Brain]

I gotta ask, how is more recovery broken when top end builds already go well over the endurance needs? Wouldn't this just offer more variety while not affecting top builds?

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I gotta ask, how is more recovery broken when top end builds already go well over the endurance needs? Wouldn't this just offer more variety while not affecting top builds?

Do they though?  

 

In most epic pools the energy or body pool is avail and makes end usage ussues almost irrelevant.

 

If you pick a different pool you may then have end issues at the expense of damage, travel, utility etc.  

 

So I see how it would add to diversity and more options, and would be all for that, but wouldn't that also lead to more power creep or have we already jumped the shark there anyway?   lol

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 3/5/2020 at 4:51 PM, Vanden said:

+Recovery set bonuses suck. There, I said it. Why are they so weak? I do not know. The "Ultimate" level +Recovery set bonus is a 4% increase in Recovery, which is less than half of what you get putting a single SO into Stamina. That's the best one there is, and it makes me pinch my nose and go "pee-yew!" So how about we just buff them?

 

	Current (%)	Proposed (%)
Tiny	1	2.5
Small	1.5	3.75
Moderate	2	5
Large	2.5	6.25
Huge	3	7.5
Gargantuan	3.5	8.75
Ultimate	4	10

 

My proposal is to increase them to 2.5x their current strength. I arrived at this number by doing a quick look at all my fully-IOed characters and seeing that all their +Recovery bonuses usually added up to less than the Numina unique is worth. Maybe this will help give IO options for end management that isn't "hope the sets you need to six-slot come with good end reduction numbers."

I dont want to get sucked into all the drama back and forth in this discussion, it seems like of late all I do is let things become too personal, so I am going to focus on right here your opening post, the premise and point I take away, which maybe I am not getting the point right so feel free to say such.

 

So you state right here that the 4% bonus, (which folks correct me if I am wrong but is still like a 2 part set piece bonus right?) is not even half of what you get from the Power Stamina with a common SO in it, correct? That is what your saying, and your complaint is compared to what we get from Stamina+ SO boosting it, the single set bonus is too paltry to matter?

 

Now not to be obtuse nor combative, but that seems a very odd analogue to use to reach the conclusion your logic circuits seemed to have reached sunny.

 

Let me use the same analogue to refute your premise if I may, with no ill will meant, just my own simple logic drawing from similar baselines.

 

So Tanks in several of their primaries( Tanks who when it comes to primaries have some of the strongest base %s in any powers of a non dps nature) have an ability that grants them an inherent global recharge bonus. Last I checked it was 20% on the various powers that do this. Now the strongest sets in the game, the lvl 50 only sets, at 5 parts only grant a 10% global recharge bonus. That is fully half of a ATs primary sets equiv power being granted for a power slot being spent. And that is on a 5 part bonus, on the highest tier sets in the game rarity wise.

 

To suggest that low tier sets, or low part bonuses grant even half what an actual power, inherent or not, with even one SO worth of boost enhancing it, seems to me to be asking for far too much from such set bonuses.

 

Its also a simple truth that a build that leverages all the tools spoken of here not only defeats the standard end management issues, but will generate so much as to negate even the strongest sapping mobs in the game, Something that as we still frequently see even the common malta sapper remains among some players greatest banes.

 

Now if you want to suggest some new sets that for their 5 and 6 part bonuses are some new much larger end related bonuses, I actually wouldnt mind that, maybe some sets that do a lot more end reduction but little recharge or accuracy.

 

I hope you can see my very simple point, as bonuses of less then the 5 or 6 part variety and on rare pricey sets, the bonuses should be frankly weak as can be.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

I decided to try to get some hard numbers on what a typical character's endurance costs are like. I rolled up a Dark/Dark Brute on the beta server, and attacked a RWZ dummy for 60 seconds. Each attack had 66.7% recharge enhancement from SOs, and I used them in an essentially random order to try to get an "average" character's performance. This is what a "typical" minute of combat would look like at high level:

 

Power	# of Casts	End Cost per Cast	Total End Cost over 60s
Shadow Punch	11	4.37	48.07
Smite	8	6.86	54.88
Shadow Maul	4	11.02	44.08
Siphon Life	6	10.19	61.14
Midnight Grasp	4	11.96	47.84
Soul Drain	1	15.6	15.6
Dark Embrace	(Toggle)	0.21/s	12.6
Obsidian Shield	(Toggle)	0.21/s	12.6
Murky Cloud	(Toggle)	0.21/s	12.6

 

All told, that character would spend 309.41 endurance in 60 seconds, including his 3 toggles. Now let's look at what contribution Recovery set bonuses will make towards covering that. The character with the most +Recovery from set bonuses Redlynne posted about had 15% from set bonuses. That's 15 endurance per minute, or 16.5 if you have both endurance boosting accolades. Really just a drop in the bucket. My proposed 2.5x buff to bonuses would bring that up to 37.5 endurance per minute (or 41.25 with the accolades), still only a small portion of the total cost, but an actually appreciable one.

 

Simply putting an SO's worth of end cost reduction in every attack (not the toggles or Soul Drain) would take the total costs down to 245.46, a much bigger impact than the current Recovery set bonuses could ever hope to have. (Literally! That's a reduction of 63.95 endurance cost per minute, and it's impossible to slot enough Recovery set bonuses to reach that number.)

Something else to mention, is in the post ED era, optimal slotting of a power was in the Devs mind to include mac end cost reduction for every power. A great many players put top tier power set bonuses which by design came at the cost most often of sub optimal enhancement of 1 or more aspects of a power, especially true of attack powers with debuffs, as their build priority.

 

Virtually any build, especially when franken set slotted will have the end cost of powers reduced by the max possible while also putting out top dmg on attacks and top def/res/heal on defensive toggles. If that is the focus a player desires in their build, max end consumption reduction, they have that option to build in, and will see very great results that, becaase recovery set bonuses are almost all 2 part bonuses, when it comes to franken slotting can often literally have 5 of every single bonus in a build on top of max end cost reduction very easily.

 

So it is very much a hard no from me on buffing the set bonuses rather then making new sets with 5 and 6 part  bonuses granting the end recovery boosts you crave.

[Vanden]

11 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

So you state right here that the 4% bonus, (which folks correct me if I am wrong but is still like a 2 part set piece bonus right?) is not even half of what you get from the Power Stamina with a common SO in it, correct? That is what your saying, and your complaint is compared to what we get from Stamina+ SO boosting it, the single set bonus is too paltry to matter?

 

Now not to be obtuse nor combative, but that seems a very odd analogue to use to reach the conclusion your logic circuits seemed to have reached sunny.

 

Let me use the same analogue to refute your premise if I may, with no ill will meant, just my own simple logic drawing from similar baselines.

 

So Tanks in several of their primaries( Tanks who when it comes to primaries have some of the strongest base %s in any powers of a non dps nature) have an ability that grants them an inherent global recharge bonus. Last I checked it was 20% on the various powers that do this. Now the strongest sets in the game, the lvl 50 only sets, at 5 parts only grant a 10% global recharge bonus. That is fully half of a ATs primary sets equiv power being granted for a power slot being spent. And that is on a 5 part bonus, on the highest tier sets in the game rarity wise.

Where your comparison falls flat is that an Ultimate Recharge bonus, 10%, is half of the entire power Quickness/Lightning Reflexes. An Ultimate Recovery bonus is not half of Stamina+1SO, or Stamina, but less than just the SO in Stamina. An even-level SO in Stamina is ~8 end/min, while an Ultimate Recovery bonus is 4 end/min. In this comparison you've chosen, the Recovery bonus is 1/3rd as strong as the Recharge bonus. And no, I don't think the Recovery bonus being earlier in the list justifies that.

 

13 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

Something else to mention, is in the post ED era, optimal slotting of a power was in the Devs mind to include mac end cost reduction for every power. A great many players put top tier power set bonuses which by design came at the cost most often of sub optimal enhancement of 1 or more aspects of a power, especially true of attack powers with debuffs, as their build priority.

 

Virtually any build, especially when franken set slotted will have the end cost of powers reduced by the max possible while also putting out top dmg on attacks and top def/res/heal on defensive toggles. If that is the focus a player desires in their build, max end consumption reduction, they have that option to build in, and will see very great results that, becaase recovery set bonuses are almost all 2 part bonuses, when it comes to franken slotting can often literally have 5 of every single bonus in a build on top of max end cost reduction very easily.

 

So it is very much a hard no from me on buffing the set bonuses rather then making new sets with 5 and 6 part  bonuses granting the end recovery boosts you crave.

I don't know how I can possibly make it clearer that the point of the suggestion is not to solve endurance issues for everyone, and it's not coming from a place of "I need better Recovery bonuses for my build", the point is to make Recovery bonuses worth something. Is it fine that Positron's Blast sucks, since you can just slot Bombardment instead? Is it fine that Energy Melee sucks, since you can just roll a Super Strength Brute? There's no reason Recovery bonuses have to be so weak and worthless. They buffed the mez resistance set bonuses to make them worth something, and they can do the same with Recovery.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

9 hours ago, Vanden said:

Where your comparison falls flat is that an Ultimate Recharge bonus, 10%, is half of the entire power Quickness/Lightning Reflexes. An Ultimate Recovery bonus is not half of Stamina+1SO, or Stamina, but less than just the SO in Stamina. An even-level SO in Stamina is ~8 end/min, while an Ultimate Recovery bonus is 4 end/min. In this comparison you've chosen, the Recovery bonus is 1/3rd as strong as the Recharge bonus. And no, I don't think the Recovery bonus being earlier in the list justifies that.

 

I don't know how I can possibly make it clearer that the point of the suggestion is not to solve endurance issues for everyone, and it's not coming from a place of "I need better Recovery bonuses for my build", the point is to make Recovery bonuses worth something. Is it fine that Positron's Blast sucks, since you can just slot Bombardment instead? Is it fine that Energy Melee sucks, since you can just roll a Super Strength Brute? There's no reason Recovery bonuses have to be so weak and worthless. They buffed the mez resistance set bonuses to make them worth something, and they can do the same with Recovery.

Well then you and I at least are of entirely different views on game design. IMO a 2 part set bonus should be much weaker then a 5 or 6 part set bonus. And if they ever want to create sets with regen/recovery bonuses in that tier of a set bonus I would be fine with them being much stronger then the current 2 part set bonuses. In literally every game I can go back in time thinking of that has used the set bonus mechanic, such as old Diablo, almost all the really good set bonuses required wearing a part in just about every gear slot, which costs you lots of other cool build choices via gear kit.

 

You keep thinking we are talking about you, I am not. I am not talking about whatever claim your making about others attacking or questioning your build ability. Positrons blast is one of my go to sets for leveling builds so no idea why you think it so much better then bombardment, and energy melee also does not suck. You are clearly talking from a pure META pov, and not everything can be fine tuned to the current meta flavor of the month.

 

However as you seem intent on ignoring every single one of us that disagrees, rather then try to understand our pov and its equally valid position, you seem incapable of anything but yelling that the things you dont think are great just are too sucky to be useful in any circumstance to any possible build.

 

So I am just going to sum up my position as a very hard no for your suggestion,and hope the HC Devs have sense enough to see its not worth their time.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

13 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I gotta ask, how is more recovery broken when top end builds already go well over the endurance needs? Wouldn't this just offer more variety while not affecting top builds?

Because even many top end builds have their players bitch about Malta sappers. So obviously its not such a build and forget issue. If the HC devs for example have the sense to ever make new top end mob factions that logically should be loaded with the tools players bitch most about like def/dmg res/ heal debuffs and constant sapping to really stress builds, then we will see what builds really do have no endurance issue.

 

My perma light form PB with no real toggles on in combat but hover and a end cost reduction clicky to boot eagerly await such a mob faction that leaves most sucking blue like they were level 1s fighting a pack of clock works.

[arcane]

I just plain don’t agree that the bonuses are currently ineffective or that comparing  ratios of types of powers to types of bonuses is conclusive or even relevant. I’m certainly in the “10%” that notices bonuses as is, I guess. I don’t even consider them the least noticeable set bonus.

Edited September 25, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[tidge]

I suppose this will be seen as trying to 'yuck in someone else's yum', but I don't see the need to increase Recovery bonuses from set enhancements. To be honest, I'm not even sure I would notice the value in increasing them.

 

I grok the feels when watching the blue bar dwindle, especially when you feel like you've got more to do. When this happens to my characters, I ease up on the proverbial gas pedal and/or start detoggling (ehem, Ninja Run). To me, this feels like a natural part of the game.

 

That being written: The game already has MANY non-incarnate ways to help (a solo player) with this, including (repeating things already written):

• Inherent Stamina (you even get a free slot with this power)
• Endurance reduction IOs (almost every power with an Endurance cost accepts these)
• +Max Endurance Accolades
• +Recovery SG base boosts
• +Recovery P2W
• +Endurance IO %procs (every character has an inherent power which accepts these)
• +Recovery IO Globals (every character has an inherent power which accepts these)
• -Endurance cost discount (IO set) bonuses
• +Max Endurance IO set bonuses

I'm of the opinion that if those are not enough to get the Endurance bar under control for a given playstyle that a hypothetical increase to Recovery bonuses from IO sets is unlikely to help. I'm not immune to math, but between different builds and playstyles I don't know how this could be meaningfully studied in a vacuum.

 

Also note that the nature of level progression throughout the game is not going to mean that replenishing the blue bar is going to keep pace with the expenses. With P2W, there will be more powers to use at low levels than there are slots for powers. The raw numbers from IOs scale with level. Lower level characters may not have access to powers or slots that can take advantage of IOs or set bonuses. I certainly don't expect most low level characters to have collected the +Max Endurance accolades before level 20.

[Vanden]

6 hours ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

Positrons blast is one of my go to sets for leveling builds so no idea why you think it so much better then bombardment, and energy melee also does not suck.

Positron's Blast gives atrocious enhancement values, less than an SO's worth of Recharge and not nearly enough Accuracy. It's only good for being muled in powers that don't actually need to perform well in combat, since the Accuracy and Recharge bonuses are slightly higher than Bombardment, which gives far superior enhancement.

 

6 hours ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

However as you seem intent on ignoring every single one of us that disagrees, rather then try to understand our pov and its equally valid position, you seem incapable of anything but yelling that the things you dont think are great just are too sucky to be useful in any circumstance to any possible build.

Yelling? No, yelling is the poster earlier in the thread using all caps and bold lettering to try to shout me down. I'm providing actual numbers and math to prove my position, and every data point I've brought to the table supports my position. When posters respond with counterpoints consisting of feelings, or other game features that are tangentially related, it's not going to convince me that this game feature, which all my research indicates is undertuned, is actually fine.

 

To your credit you seem to have actually looked at my data and understood it, even if you've concluded that the set bonuses being pointless and trivial is the way it should be. But obviously I'm not going to agree with that or I never would have made the topic in the first place.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Vanden

[Sakura Tenshi]

I wouldn't complain too much, though I haven't had much end trouble once a character is kitted out, I often do begin with sets with some end management means usually, so my case is probably unique, and something like this could free up from having to always pick out physical perfection for melee characters.

 

Personally, I think that +damage is in much greater trouble, I once tried to make a hypothetical blaster build with as much +damage as I could cram into them and only managed +35%, which, while not trivial, still seems quite laughable compared to how much +recharge you can get and how +recharge can double your damage output. Alternatively, if we are so concerned about end management, maybe a buff to +max end? That's kind of a rare bonus.

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Personally, I think that +damage is in much greater trouble, I once tried to make a hypothetical blaster build with as much +damage as I could cram into them and only managed +35%, which, while not trivial, still seems quite laughable compared to how much +recharge you can get and how +recharge can double your damage output.

+35% damage is more extra damage than Build Up would usually give you over time. At 200% recharge, Build Up will recharge in 30s, so it's up 1/3rd of the time, for an average 33% damage boost (on Blasters). I'm guessing you probably don't have 200% recharge for your Build Up (especially if you focused on damage bonuses).

[Sakura Tenshi]

@Vanden Well, that's sort of what I'm talking about: it makes sense to not be able to freely buff so many stats with set bonuses, but if you build and really focus down on +damage, you're not gonna have much +recharge, or even +defense. And silly as it might sound to say +damage only is going to benefit the damage powers, but +recharge basically benefits everything, especially survival tools.

[golstat2003]

11 minutes ago, Vanden said:

+35% damage is more extra damage than Build Up would usually give you over time. At 200% recharge, Build Up will recharge in 30s, so it's up 1/3rd of the time, for an average 33% damage boost (on Blasters). I'm guessing you probably don't have 200% recharge for your Build Up (especially if you focused on damage bonuses).

Yeah no. I'm always going for recharge over + damage. Recharge helps EVERYTHING. on a build. I'd bet if you took a poll most would find +Recharge more valuable than + damage. 

[plainguy]

I think masterminds would benefit the most out of this but I think this should be fixed within the mastermind arch type.

 

 

I will say this. 

If Endurance is NOT an issue for any Arch Type (other than masterminds, IMO) then why is it an issue if it is upped.. I mean if your X Arch Type and you start a fight with X amount of endurance and end it with 25% endurance.. What is the issue if these changes made you end a fight with 50% endurance or 75% endurance. ? 

Yea I get it, you could farm even FASTER..  ( kidding)..  

 

I do see the benefits in a AV fight.

Beyond the work the Devs would have to do to implement this. 
I am sure the Devs know the key issues. I don't think they would be pushed or gaslighted into making changes for the sake of making a change.. Time is valuable so they are going to work on something that brings the greatest benefit. Greater good sort of thing. 

Again I only see this as a really great benefit to masterminds.. Which from what I read from the Devs, it seems they are aware of mastermind endurance issues.  

But I would welcome this idea with open arms..