I am in a dither....

[NEW DAWN]

Those that say Dark Armour / Dark Melee sucks are probably doing things wrong, I did Brute and Tank mind you but endurance management was easily done, solved, but in part because of the build. No one is stealing end from the character, it is balanced to other scrappers and by playing to ones needs you get bang for buck out of the build, it's a different breed from others and some sets are high performers on one AT and low performers on another and so I don't know if the sets shine less on a scrapper AT but I can imagine the better players make the scrapper version shine. Those that can't get on with things are just happy to blame anything but themselves with an "If I can't do it, no one can" attitude. I'm always tempted to play all the sucky characters.

[Werner]

22 minutes ago, NEW DAWN said:

...I'm always tempted to play all the sucky characters.

The last time I tried to make a sucky character, I grabbed a primary and secondary at random from those I'd never tried. I ended up with a Titan Weapons/Bio Scrapper. He was a complete failure at sucking. 😉 I only learned later that it was a well-known great combo. 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Werner

[LaconicLemur]

A lot of people do under-appreciate Dark. I think most people give up on Dark Melee/* because it's so end-heavy and it feels like you are going at a snail's pace while all the fancy fast action scraps (katana, DB, claws) just ran by you. And if you didn't build it right, it would be squishier *and* have lower dps.  And it's also a very late bloomer (if it blooms at all).  It's also not straight-forward to build, as most powers can be slotted with more types of enhancements.  

 

That being said, as I mentioned before in a previous post, I love my DM/Inv scrapper main.  Unbelievably sturdy @ "capped" S/L 45% defense and capped S/L 75% resistance. And that was before Incarnates and i25 IO sets were introduced. Scary to think what Dark Melee could do now...

 

(Never tried DM/DA, so limiting my comments to DM.)

[Gauntlet_Prime]

3 hours ago, Fan Mail said:

If you use Ctrl+click your mez protection, it will fire off automatically.  Set it and forget it.  If that was mentioned in the above, sorry I missed it. 

 

As far as Dark Armor is concerned, can't really say.  When I tried it on Live, we didn't have the endurance fixes we have today so didn't play it past level 20 or so.

 

I think slows are still one of it's weaknesses but perhaps I'm wrong.

Ok, that is true.  In some cases -recharge can get outta hand on a dark.  Specifically in First Ward vs a billion psychics.  It isn't dangerous as even at that level I had a pile of resistance to psi damage but the heal cooldown would go in reverse in a big pack hehe.

[MunkiLord]

Gonna throw my hat in and say they were wrong too, at least about Dark Melee. I've played countless hours on my DM/SR, and it's awesome. I haven't used DA yet, but now I want to.

[biostem]

I have a DM/EA brute that I rather like.  My namesake was a DM/regen scrapper back on live.  I just found dark armor to have too many things going on at once, for my liking.  It's not bad, just "high maintenance"...

[Obus Form]

34 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Gonna throw my hat in...

*sniff sniff*  what's that smell?

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, Obus Form said:

*sniff sniff*  what's that smell?

L.D. Bell? 

[Sarrate]

7 hours ago, Werner said:

The last time I tried to make a sucky character... Scrapper.

Uhm, @Werner, you failed before you even began. 😉

[Werner]

46 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

Uhm, @Werner, you failed before you even began. 😉

LOL! Yes, it's true. 🙂

[Jacke]

Back on Live around Issue 6, I read guides on the Dark-Dark Defender (toon name was "Blackest Night") and the Dark-Dark Scrapper (@The_Gamemaster) and knew I'd love both.  Can't find the links to them, but I have Mids builds I made from them in 2008 to 2009, so they have issues loading in the current 2.6.0.7 Mids (due to fun stuff like non-inherent Fitness pool 🙂 ).   Later joined Repeat Offenders who had a whole Supergroup dedicated to Dark Powers, Shadows of Salvation.

 

What @Werner (who's one of the best City players ever) and others say about Dark Melee and Dark Armor being good, I'll second.  Also read a study from those early days that showed in numbers of the 4 original Scrapper armors (Dark Armor, Invulnerability, Regeneration, Super Reflexes), Dark Armor was the best for survivability when run well because it had a decent share of all three main damage mitigations, Defense, Damage Resistance, and Healing.  That's still true today.  It's also one of those powersets you want to take most powers from it, with only Cloak of Fear being...situational (needs a full 6 slots, needs matching with another Fear power (like Touch of Fear in Dark Melee), and even then seems barely worth it).

 

11 hours ago, crkohl said:

This thread has been hi-jacked and is now about Katana/DA Brutes! Here's mine:

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Soul Sever: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Sting of the Wasp -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(40), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(48)

A suggestion for you, @crkohl, swap out Sting of the Wasp for Gambler's Cut.  For Katana, it's the better power with a bit more damage/activation and lower recharge needed to get the best damage chain, GC - SD - GC - GD.  (It's also one of the differences between Katana and Broadsword.  Katana's faster T1+2 power, Gambler's Cut, is preferred.  Broadswords slower T1+2 power, Hack, is very much better than Slash.)

[crkohl]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

A suggestion for you, @crkohl, swap out Sting of the Wasp for Gambler's Cut.  For Katana, it's the better power with a bit more damage/activation and lower recharge needed to get the best damage chain, GC - SD - GC - GD.  (It's also one of the differences between Katana and Broadsword.  Katana's faster T1+2 power, Gambler's Cut, is preferred.  Broadswords slower T1+2 power, Hack, is very much better than Slash.)

Thank you for the tip my friend. I’m actually aware of that, but tbh, I just like the animation of Sting of the Wasp way better. Animations > slightly better effectiveness for me most of the time. Gambler’s Cut looks odd to me for some reason.

[Werner]

9 hours ago, Jacke said:

...you want to take most powers from it, with only Cloak of Fear being...situational (needs a full 6 slots, needs matching with another Fear power (like Touch of Fear in Dark Melee), and even then seems barely worth it)...

Although I switched to Oppressive Gloom on my Brute, I ran Cloak of Fear on my Scrapper. I never tested this, but my understanding from others was that even though Death Shroud means that the feared minions could attack you, they would do so at a reduced frequency. Also, my Scrapper was initially intended as an AV soloer, and sometimes for that I found it useful to turn off Death Shroud and use a crowd of feared and helpless minions as Dark Regeneration fodder for the duration of the fight. Unlike Oppressive Gloom, it shuts them down almost completely like that, no wandering out of range and attacking you with ranged attacks before running back in. And of course it doesn't drain your own health like Oppressive Gloom. I don't like the high endurance cost, though. And nothing I just said is disagreeing with you - Cloak of Fear is situational.

 

I also think Soul Transfer is skippable, as I prefer to never die, but if I do die while solo, it's nice to get right back in the action without a trip to the hospital. I took it on my Brute, but I think I skipped it on my Scrapper.

[hejtmane]

The only reason I do longer play Dark Armor and I even ran it for a short while when we could not even stack the armors in I2 yea that sucked but loved the set.  Yes Dark Armor is good other than a lack of KB protection arrg.

 

The issue is  I got spoiled by the taunt aura in shield so I am stuck with rad, shield. ea, inv and Will power now; for some reason  I got the taste of that sweet sweet taunt aura and it just makes other sets less appealing.

[Gauntlet_Prime]

9 hours ago, hejtmane said:

The only reason I do longer play Dark Armor and I even ran it for a short while when we could not even stack the armors in I2 yea that sucked but loved the set.  Yes Dark Armor is good other than a lack of KB protection arrg.

 

The issue is  I got spoiled by the taunt aura in shield so I am stuck with rad, shield. ea, inv and Will power now; for some reason  I got the taste of that sweet sweet taunt aura and it just makes other sets less appealing.

KB protection is very easily accomplished with cheap IOs that can be slotted as early as level 7 I believe.  I think Karma will give 3 mag protection and can just be slotted in a passive.  There is also Steadfast I think that can get you up to 7 or 8 mag with both of them.

 

As far as the taunt aura the damage from Death Shroud tends to work just as well solo.  I only ever notice in a group if someone has a taunt aura.  Then I go fulls scraplock and enjoy being able to go ham without taking damage.  It does mean i can't scrank for a team in the tanker has to leave though.

[crkohl]

10 hours ago, hejtmane said:

The issue is  I got spoiled by the taunt aura in shield so I am stuck with rad, shield. ea, inv and Will power now; for some reason  I got the taste of that sweet sweet taunt aura and it just makes other sets less appealing.

This is why I can’t stop making Bio and Shield Scrappers.

 

Well... That and the crazy +dmg...

[Jacke]

@Werner, I noticed in your Katana-Dark Armor build, you don't take Build Up.  Wonder about your reasoning, perhaps a case of other power choices being better?  I find on my Katana-Fiery Aura Brute it's awkward to add in both Build Up and Fiery Embrace at the right times while everything else is going on.

 

You also slot for 12 Knockback Protection.  How often is that much needed?  (Though I've found 4 isn't enough against some AVs....)

 

15 minutes ago, Werner said:

Although I switched to Oppressive Gloom on my Brute, I ran Cloak of Fear on my Scrapper. I never tested this, but my understanding from others was that even though Death Shroud means that the feared minions could attack you, they would do so at a reduced frequency. Also, my Scrapper was initially intended as an AV soloer, and sometimes for that I found it useful to turn off Death Shroud and use a crowd of feared and helpless minions as Dark Regeneration fodder for the duration of the fight. Unlike Oppressive Gloom, it shuts them down almost completely like that, no wandering out of range and attacking you with ranged attacks before running back in. And of course it doesn't drain your own health like Oppressive Gloom. I don't like the high endurance cost, though. And nothing I just said is disagreeing with you - Cloak of Fear is situational.

I remember that old Dark-Dark Scrapper post by @The_Gamemaster on the old Live forums (circa Issue 6) had a build ("Fear Meh!") with Touch of Fear and Cloak of Fear he'd tried out (see the spoiler below).

 

Spoiler

The 3 empty power slots are for the old non-Inherent Fitness Pool: Swift, Health, and Stamina (which the latest Mids doesn't support).  Builds were even tighter back then.  I had an IO build for my AR-Devices Blaster that only used Swift (to speed up Hover 🙂 ) and made up for no Stamina by slotting +Recovery IO set bonuses.

 

As well, back then, Siphon Life only healed and applied a -ToHit debuff and Brawl cost endurance.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Fear Meh!: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Darkness Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- Acc(A), Acc(3), Dmg(3), Dmg(5), Dmg(5), EndRdx(7)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- EndRdx(A), ResDam(7), ResDam(9), ResDam(9)
Level 2: Shadow Maul -- Acc(A), Acc(11), Dmg(11), Dmg(13), Dmg(13), EndRdx(15)
Level 4: Death Shroud -- Acc(A), Acc(15), Dmg(17), Dmg(17), EndRdx(19), EndRdx(34)
Level 6: Air Superiority -- Acc(A), Acc(21), Dmg(21), Dmg(23), RechRdx(23), RechRdx(25)
Level 8: Touch of Fear -- Acc(A), EndRdx(19), RechRdx(25), RechRdx(27), Fear(29), Fear(29)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- EndRdx(A)
Level 12: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight(A)
Level 16: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- Acc(A), Acc(31), RechRdx(33), RechRdx(33), RechRdx(33), EndMod(34)
Level 20: [Empty] -- Empty(A), Empty(27), Empty(34)
Level 22: Dark Regeneration -- Acc(A), Acc(36), EndRdx(36), EndRdx(36), RechRdx(37)
Level 24: Hover -- Flight(A), Flight(31), Flight(31)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Acc(A), RechRdx(37), RechRdx(39)
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- Acc(A), Acc(39), Acc(39), EndRdx(40), EndRdx(40), EndRdx(42)
Level 30: Cloak of Darkness -- EndRdx(A)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Acc(A), Acc(37), Dmg(42), Dmg(42), Dmg(43), EndRdx(43)
Level 35: Murky Cloud -- EndRdx(A)
Level 38: Siphon Life -- Acc(A), Acc(40), Heal(43), Heal(45), Heal(45)
Level 41: Petrifying Gaze -- Acc(A), Acc(45), RechRdx(46), RechRdx(46)
Level 44: Dark Blast -- Acc(A), Acc(46), Dmg(48), Dmg(48), Dmg(48)
Level 47: Tenebrous Tentacles -- Acc(A), Acc(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(50), RechRdx(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------

 

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I've thought of maybe including a 6-slotted Cloak of Fear with 3 each Endoplasm Exposure (Accuracy and Mez) and Enzyme Exposure (ToHit Debuff and Endurance Reduction), though there's likely a better way to slot it, hopefully with less that 5 extra slots.  But what those slots could do elsewhere in the build.

 

15 minutes ago, Werner said:

 

I also think Soul Transfer is skippable, as I prefer to never die, but if I do die while solo, it's nice to get right back in the action without a trip to the hospital. I took it on my Brute, but I think I skipped it on my Scrapper.

 

I like the rez powers as they're usually more effective for getting back upright in a pack of angry mobs.  Rise of the Phoenix on my Katana-Fire Brute gets a real workout  🙂 (though less so after getting Incarnated and it's also there for the IO set bonuses).  Though builds are tight and there's likely a power that could be substituted to prevent death.  Still, I'm tempted to go with Dark Mastery on my Defenders partly for getting Soul Transfer, as I have fond memories of a crazy Zombie Invasion years ago when my Rad-Rad Defender has a Dark Mastery build and with Soul Transfer I just kept fighting.  (Later had a better Scorpion Shield build that would have likely never died once.)

[Werner]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

@Werner, I noticed in your Katana-Dark Armor build, you don't take Build Up.  Wonder about your reasoning, perhaps a case of other power choices being better?  I find on my Katana-Fiery Aura Brute it's awkward to add in both Build Up and Fiery Embrace at the right times while everything else is going on.

It may or may not be a mistake, but I'll explain my thinking. I'd take it on a Scrapper. But on a Brute, let's say I'm running around at +170% damage from slotting and Fury. Let's say I do 50 DPS raw, 135 DPS with slotting and Fury. Go like that for 35 seconds, and I do 35 * 135 = 4725 points of damage. Now let's say I use Build Up every 35 seconds. Brute Build Up is +80% damage for 10 seconds, with 1.32 seconds Arcanatime cast. So for 10 seconds I do 175 DPS = 1750 damage, for 23.68 seconds I do 135 DPS = 3197 damage, and for 1.32 seconds I do 0 DPS. That's a total of 4947 damage. It's more of course, but it's only 5% more, and it takes my attention away from other things I may need to pay close attention to. That ignores a fair bit of situational utility, mind you. The +20% to hit can be very useful sometimes. It frontloads some damage onto a Brute that usually needs to ramp up. During that ramp up it will have a more significant effect on DPS. (Edit: I'd also want to take a look at the chance for build up proc in build up and how that compares to pure recharge, or what happens if I do both and lose a slot somewhere.) Maybe I'll respec into it at some point. It would be easy to drop Vengeance, say, and lose a little bit of recharge. Or maybe Soul Transfer, and try to not die. But I'm going to go without Build Up for now.

 

I skipped Rage on my Super Strength/Fire Brute with similar reasoning. Mine's a general-purpose AoE damage machine with mitigation not specifically focused on Fire, so not strictly a farming build, but it's only barely slower than top end farming builds, so I felt like the reasoning worked out well in that case. But there's a big difference - I hate Rage. and I like Build Up. We'll see.

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

You also slot for 12 Knockback Protection.  How often is that much needed?  (Though I've found 4 isn't enough against some AVs....)

It's not often needed. Most people would probably be happy enough with 8. But I like covering my bases for the rarer cases. I don't want knockback to be one of my weaknesses, and I'm willing to compromise slightly elsewhere to get that level of protection. A good alternative I would consider is 8 points and Hover. Hover at least makes it less annoying/dangerous to get knocked back, and it's only going to happen rarely anyway.

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

I've thought of maybe including a 6-slotted Cloak of Fear with 3 each Endoplasm Exposure (Accuracy and Mez) and Enzyme Exposure (ToHit Debuff and Endurance Reduction), though there's likely a better way to slot it, hopefully with less that 5 extra slots.  But what those slots could do elsewhere in the build.

I'd be willing to run it with one or two Endoplasms only, and just tune the rest of the build for sufficient recovery. I'd at least experiment with that. It might end up six-slotted, but I'd see how few I might be able to get away with while still having an effective power.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Werner

[WillParkinson]

On 3/10/2020 at 9:37 AM, Obus Form said:

Given the depth OPs question I did not include incarnate powers (melee core, barrier) in the build because it's the grind up there and when those T4s are inactive that is most risky.  Once all T4s are active, esp barrier + melee core, all ATs are ostensibly tanky.

 

@WillParkinsonif you provide a link to your build, and/or design restrictions (such as recharge goals) or desires, I can link a dark/Dark build for you.  Some goals could be to main tank iTrials, or just run +4/8 missions, or take certain powers or want certain percs. 

 

Honestly, I'm trying to decide between a Dark/Dark scrapper and tank. They're both characters I'm liking so far, but no clue how well they'll do at 50. I mostly solo, but do an occasional duo with a friend. I'm enjoying my scrapper, especially if the proposed changes to Shadow Maul go through, but that cap on tanks is tantalizing as well.

[Redlynne]

7 hours ago, WillParkinson said:

Honestly, I'm trying to decide between a Dark/Dark scrapper and tank. They're both characters I'm liking so far, but no clue how well they'll do at 50. I mostly solo, but do an occasional duo with a friend. I'm enjoying my scrapper, especially if the proposed changes to Shadow Maul go through, but that cap on tanks is tantalizing as well.

Tanker.

When in doubt between Scrapper and Tanker, it all comes down to "fast vs not quite as fast" (on damage output) and the flipside of "survivable vs not quite as survivable" (on resistances/health).  The "loss" in damage potential isn't going to be that much, while the gain in ... immortality ... on the Tanker will be quite significant.  It's the whole "if you can't kill me in 11 seconds then YOU CAN'T KILL ME" thing of how quickly you can get your Dark Regeneration power healing you up to full all the time, and the Tanker will give you more ... margin ... for being able to pull that stunt off on a routine/regular basis.

 

Honestly, I'd say go ahead and build a Dark/Dark Tanker in the build app you've got, get everything set "just so" for the build ... and then port that over, power for power to a Scrapper so as to do a 1:1 comparison of the alternatives in order to decide which you like best.

[subbacultchas]

I haven't made a Dark Melee character since the game came back up. But I had plenty before, a DM/SR scrapper that I loved, as well as a DM/Stone Brute that really needed to exist during IOs, as well as a couple more (maybe a /dark blaster). I loved all of them for different reasons, even if they weren't top notch damage. The utility from dark alone was a great pull, as well as extra -to hit for SR and Granite.  Now I think there are more sets that make Dark seem a little more lost, but it's still a fine set and I'm really looking forward to trying it after the slight buffs to it.

[Werner]

36 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

"if you can't kill me in 11 seconds then YOU CAN'T KILL ME"

Oh how I love that part!

[DocMidknight]

Wait...what.....dark everything sucks.......how did I miss this.....how did I not get the memo...all those long hours of leveling up a dark/dark , dark/sd, dark/sr and dark/regen scrapper....what about the rad/dark brute I has.....oh and the dark/dark stalker......and my dark/dark troller, my dark/storm troller and both my ill/dark trollers. How could I have not seen that dark anything and everything sux.......now that I've gotten that outta my way, whoever says dark isn't any good just doesn't know how to play dark. In my experience and while I'm no master I do play a lot of dark builds, mainly dark builds if I'm being honest and it is by far one of the best sets I've ever come across. While it does have some issues..lack of strong AoE in the melee and the endurance usage in the armor are the main issues  it more than makes up for those issues with everything else it does well.

 

  Anyone that tells you a specific set isn't any good or is terrible then either doesn't know the set or play the set. While I know there are more powerful combos out there and I've teamned with some that made my darks look like a 2nd grade drop out, in the end I still stood tall taking out the same mobs they did and while they may have done it a bit faster....I was still there dropping whatever was in front of me without missing a beat or getting put into a dirt nap.........rant over

 

Doc Midknight

the speaker for the dark

 

[Gauntlet_Prime]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Tanker.

"if you can't kill me in 11 seconds then YOU CAN'T KILL ME"

FACTS!  It is an amazing feeling being immortal.  My Rad/Rad brute is a beast but does occasionally get in a animation lock and die... my dark/savage tank never thinks twice about any mobs solo.  Just walk up and dare em to try.

[Call Me Awesome]

16 hours ago, Jacke said:

You also slot for 12 Knockback Protection.  How often is that much needed?  (Though I've found 4 isn't enough against some AVs....)

I'll admit I haven't really looked at the current state of KB vs KB protection but back on Live the rule was either slot for MAG 4 or go to MAG 12... there was almost no KB around that was more than 4 but less than 8 so slotting 8 was pointless.  MAG 4 would handle the vast majority, but you needed MAG 10 or better to deal with anything that was stronger than 4.

 

I do recall that there's a few KB powers that will beat MAG 12, mostly from Lord Recluse when he's buffed by his tower.