Change +Max Health into Absorb (and add more Absorb powers)

[Alchemystic]

So! One of the most confusing things I've found with the absorb mechanic is that it's almost functionally identical to +Max Health effects. You gain temporary hit points for a short amount of time, the only difference is that hit points generated by +Max Health can be healed/regenerated.

 

However, since it's easier to see when you get temporary hit points from Absorb (the silver bar) than it is for +Max Health (no visual change) I propose that for the purpose of click powers that we replace +Max Health with Absorb or Absorb over Time.

 

Autopowers with +Max Health will remain unchanged, since this permanently increases your hit point maximum and doesn't change unless the power is somehow deactivated.

 

Powers affected would be;

• Chill Mastery - Hoarfrost
• Cold Domination - Frostwork 
• Cold Mastery - Hoarfrost
• Ice Armor - Hoarfrost 
• Ice Mastery - Hoarfrost
• Invulnerability - Dull Pain
• Energy Aura - Overload
• Regeneration - Dull Pain 
• Stone Armor - Earth's Embrace
• Stone Mastery - Earth's Embrace 

 

With these changes in mind, we would likely see more benefit from enhancements since +MaxHealth is affected differently than Absorb. So, there would have to be a few changes made to accommodate this, namely removing any standard healing effects they may already have.

 

There is also potential to add Absorb or Absorb over Time to a number of other powers in order to provide a boost to functionality, open access to healing enhancement sets, and improve on their theme.

 

Good candidates for additional absorb functionality are;

• Empathy
• Field Mastery
• Force Field
• Force Mastery
• Luminous Aura
• Pain Domination
• Shield Defense
• Umbral Aura

Edited March 23, 2020 by Tyrannical

[0th Power]

+max health increases regeneration rate so I’d say that this would mininerf these powers. Also, as a personal feeling. Absorb is used too much already, so I’d vote no

Edited March 23, 2020 by 0th Power
You covered this and I can’t read apparently

[Galaxy Brain]

12 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

+max health increases regeneration rate so I’d say that this would mininerf these powers.

On the self +Hp, sure. On the ally +hp powers you can waste these depending on the player so absorb is better.

 

12 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

Also, as a personal feeling. Absorb is used too much already, so I’d vote no

Kinda subjective, I think it isnt used enough.

[0th Power]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Kinda subjective

Very subjective 

Edited March 23, 2020 by 0th Power

[Joshex]

I vote no, first of all there are more powers with +Max Health than listed here. and +Max Health is very different from absorb. +max health is permanent, +absorb is temporary and cannot be healed etc.. there is a reason for this and there is a reason why certain powersets have absorb instead of max health, it's a balancing act. it has to do with statistics. absorb is like padding, buy you have to cast a power to refill it (can't heal or regen it). it's that additional task that makes it comparatively weaker than +max health. when designing powersets they had to take this into consideration, it'd be the difference between tanking or not tanking in some conditions. in the conditions they did not apply it, thats because it'd make that set too powerful.

 

simple as that, it has to do with the total amount of cumulative power in the set and the effects of that power and how they work together., if you want numbers and Arcanum is willing, I'd suggest asking GM Arcanum why the powers have what they currently do and not what you want them to have.

[Redlynne]

Vote No.

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, have to vote no. Too many cases where this is a functional reduction in capability.

 

One such example is dull pain, where an invuln tank gains a large +Regen, due to the larger hp pool.

[SeraphimKensai]

+Max HP benefits regeneration of HP, +Absorb doesn't. So changing existing powers that Grant +HP would effectively nerf a character's potential regen rate.

 

So hard pass.

 

That said I'm all for adding some absorb into powers but not at the expense of losing +HP.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Joshex said:

there is a reason for this and there is a reason why certain powersets have absorb instead of max health

That reason is literally timing. Absorb is new and most of the max hp powers are old. They did not have time to go back and tweak nor when they were made absorb was not an option. 

 

As for the vote, I'll argue that any ally-facing +MaxHP would be better as a large absorb with +regen. Many characters with self +HP, accolades, bonuses, will benefit less and less from ally +HP buffs so an absorb would be better.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[ArchVileTerror]

One could consider splitting the difference.  Reduce the Buff value of Maximum Hit Points by 20%, but add an Absorb of approximately 30% of the old +MaxHP.

But then, I always like compromises as a general principle,

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, Joshex said:

. +max health is permanent, +absorb is temporary and cannot be healed etc..

only autopowers are permanent, as I noted in my original post, which is why I wished to leave those powers be and focus only on the powers that are click-activated, as they are not permanent.

[Joshex]

13 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

That reason is literally timing. Absorb is new and most of the macho powers are old. They did not have time to go back and tweak nor when they were made absorb was not an option. 

 

As for the vote, I'll argue that any ally-facing +MaxHP would be better as a large absorb with +regen. Many characters with self +HP, accolades, bonuses, will benefit less and less from ally +HP buffs so an absorb would be better.

given that +MaxHP came first, it was available as a consideration when absorb powers were made. so timing has nothing to do with it, they strategically made absorb as a function because it was weaker than +hp and allowed them to add in a semi +hp function without allowing it to be permanent or healed regened. this meant it was temporary +HP  and thus they could add in other features on the same power and set that normally would be comparatively too expensive.

 

so it was a trade. less potential by including the absorb function instead of +HP, more space for other functions. look at it this way, reducing the amount of +HP a power has is subtraction of points which can be applied to another function. but the value of 100 points of +HP doesn't constitute much in for example Def  or res. it's not point for point, 1000 HP is probably worth like 25 res, roughly. so +1HP would be more like 0.025 res. BUT on the otherhand where taking away points of +HP is subtraction, by instead replacing +HP with Absorb, this is division by like 3 or 4, this gives massive amounts of points to apply to another function.. lets say it's +1000 Absorb, now you could add +25/4 (6.25%) res to the same power or somewhere else in the set as a dev.

 

keep in mind different conditions change the value of points, Res(all) would get your basic rate 6.25% from the above transaction, where as single, double, triple or even quadro res powers have their own special rates of exchange for +HP /heal/ regen..

[Joshex]

Just now, Tyrannical said:

only autopowers are permanent, as I noted in my original post, which is why I wished to leave those powers be and focus only on the powers that are click-activated, as they are not permanent.

ok point is then that while click powers give +HP temporarily, in that time you can use it as normal. you can be healed to that amount and regen upto that cap. thats counted in the value of the power's points.

 

just like stated above, so +1000Max HP click power is like +3000 absorb.

[Alchemystic]

3 minutes ago, Joshex said:

ok point is then that while click powers give +HP temporarily, in that time you can use it as normal. you can be healed to that amount and regen upto that cap. thats counted in the value of the power's points.

 

just like stated above, so +1000Max HP click power is like +3000 absorb.

There is definitely a mathematical element to it which calculates a suitable exchange, which is what I'm looking to explore.

 

How much absorb (or absorb over time) would be required to match the standard +Max Heath values of the powers above?

 

I'm not looking reduce the effectiveness of these powers, but create a version of them that is more transparent in its value.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

+Max HP benefits regeneration of HP, +Absorb doesn't.

 

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

One such example is dull pain, where an invuln tank gains a large +Regen, due to the larger hp pool.

 

Which is why Absorb over Time exists to compensate this.

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Alchemystic]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Vote No.

I believe the term is "/jranger"

 

What do you think this is? a democracy? 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Major_Decoy]

Hamidon ignores absorb.

[Galaxy Brain]

31 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Hamidon ignores absorb.

That's interesting.... I know he has (untyped) damage as well, so most defenses dont work but that seems like a weird oversight. 

[Alchemystic]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

That's interesting.... I know he has (untyped) damage as well, so most defenses dont work but that seems like a weird oversight. 

Probably because, as you say, absorb is a fairly new mechanic and the old dev team didn't see fit to go back and change things accordingly.

 

An oversight that can easily be fixed, I'm sure.

[Bopper]

I like it the way it is. Although Absorb and Max HP seem similar due to both allowing you to take more damage before dying, they are quite different. Both regeneration and absorb works with max HP, as every regen tick returns 5% of your max HP and most of the absorb shields work off a percentage of your max HP. So removing max HP powers effectively diminishes the strength of regeneration and absorb. And since absorb caps at 100% of your base HP, you actually hurt yourself removing +HP.

 

To even it out, you would have to make the absorb Shields refresh over time (basically replicating regeneration's purpose), but that just makes the system more confusing to understand than the system we have now. Afterall, we would still have MaxHP, regen and absorb. Adding absorb over time does not help in one's understanding of survivability. 

 

 

[Alchemystic]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

To even it out, you would have to make the absorb Shields refresh over time (basically replicating regeneration's purpose), but that just makes the system more confusing to understand than the system we have now. Afterall, we would still have MaxHP, regen and absorb. Adding absorb over time does not help in one's understanding of survivability. 

 

 

that's basically what Absorb over Time does, but I fail to see how it could be more confusing than a hidden regeneration buff as a side effect of +Max Health

Edited March 23, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Bopper]

32 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

that's basically what Absorb over Time does, but I fail to see how it could be more confusing than a hidden regeneration buff as a side effect of +Max Health

Not sure what you mean. Which part of regeneration is hidden? The health bar shows relative to max HP and the regen ticks are always 5%. Plus, the HP numbers float above your head when the regen ticks apply.

[Alchemystic]

24 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Not sure what you mean. Which part of regeneration is hidden? The health bar shows relative to max HP and the regen ticks are always 5%. Plus, the HP numbers float above your head when the regen ticks apply.

Mostly because +Max Health doesn't strictly indicate if the bonus HP benefits or modifies regeneration rate.

 

Just thinking of this from a new player's perspective.

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Mostly because +Max Health doesn't strictly indicate if the bonus HP benefits or modifies regeneration rate.

 

Just thinking of this from a new player's perspective.

It does not adjust regeneration rate, it only adjusts regeneration amount. 

 

As for new players, I'm not sure how well they would understand absorb compared to other health mechanics. I am fairly knowledgeable about the mechanics of the game and wrote a tool on survivability, but still hadn't fully understood the absorb mechanic until I played extensively with Bio this past week. I still dont understand it well enough to incorporate it into the tool, but maybe soon.

 

I like the absorb mechanic, but not more so than what the other mechanics bring to the table (I like them all fairly equally). What I really like is how all 3 mechanics (regen, maxHP, and absorb) can play between each other. But I digress. That's a separate discussion not pertinent to your suggestion.

[Zepp]

I tend to prefer efficacy over perceived efficacy... So I am on keeping the +HP side...