Mind Control

[Communistpenguin]

I feel like Mind control is a little on the weaker side of the control spectrum. It has two sleep powers and no immobilizations. Telekinesis is powerful, but very situational, and plant control gets a power thats basically as good as minds level 32 power. So my thought, is to give the two sleep powers an immobiliization as well as their sleep, and increase the magnitude of the single target confuse so that you can confuse a boss in one application. Sleeps were always of questionable use, and now moreso, so tacking on an immobilization, even one with a shorter duration than other sets, would help those powers be useful on teams. The higher mag confuse would be used to neutralize more powerful targets, a surgical strike compared to plants carpet bombing. 

[Redlynne]

The BEST possible changes that could be made to Mind Control would be to convert Mass Hypnosis to follow the example set by Static Field in Electric Control ... that of a periodically reapplying Sleep on a 2s interval.  In the case of Mass Hypnosis I would swap out the -Endurance factor of Static Field for (large) -Perception and -Range debuffs that lasts for all of 4s (does not stack from same caster) so there's a lingering "hunh? wha?" factor upon the Sleep being broken where after Sleep has been broken the affected foes can engage in melee range, but not in long range attacks, as they wake up ... and so that you can move among the Mass Hypnosis sleeping foes without drawing aggro by entering perception range (due to Perception debuffing).

 

Telekinesis just needs an overhaul urban renewal in how the power "works" under the hood.  Keep the concept, but very nearly totally rework the means.

UNNERF TELEKINESIS already!!!

 

Cut the recharge on Total Domination and Mass Confusion down to 180s.

 

That would go a LONG WAY towards fixing the (perceived) problems with Mind Control.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

The BEST possible changes that could be made to Mind Control would be to convert Mass Hypnosis to follow the example set by Static Field in Electric Control ... that of a periodically reapplying Sleep on a 2s interval.  In the case of Mass Hypnosis I would swap out the -Endurance factor of Static Field for (large) -Perception and -Range debuffs that lasts for all of 4s (does not stack from same caster) so there's a lingering "hunh? wha?" factor upon the Sleep being broken where after Sleep has been broken the affected foes can engage in melee range, but not in long range attacks, as they wake up ... and so that you can move among the Mass Hypnosis sleeping foes without drawing aggro by entering perception range (due to Perception debuffing).

 

Telekinesis just needs an overhaul urban renewal in how the power "works" under the hood.  Keep the concept, but very nearly totally rework the means.

UNNERF TELEKINESIS already!!!

 

Cut the recharge on Total Domination and Mass Confusion down to 180s.

 

That would go a LONG WAY towards fixing the (perceived) problems with Mind Control.

Thumbs up.

 

Also, make teleK an AoE knock lift power.

[Redlynne]

Actually, I have a ... BETTER IDEA ... for what to do with Telekinesis in terms of a revamp overhaul urban renewal of the power.  I'll post it once I have the time needed for the composition to explain.  Best part is ... ALL of the elements to do what I'm thinking of already exist within the game engine, so no "new" tech would be needed to do it.

[Greycat]

Just a solid no.

 

Sleeps are far more useful than people give them credit for. Aim a sleep at anything throwing a dispersion bubble. Watch a sleep shut down an AV.

 

Mind is insanely (heh) flexible and useful.

[Bossk_Hogg]

38 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Just a solid no.

 

Sleeps are far more useful than people give them credit for. Aim a sleep at anything throwing a dispersion bubble. Watch a sleep shut down an AV.

 

Mind is insanely (heh) flexible and useful.

No, they really arent. How often do you actually encounter dispersion bubble that having an otherwise nigh useless form of CC is worthwhile? Great, you can solo pull AV's. Boy, that justifies the set being weak in 99.9999% of every other encounter!

 

Given that other sets get stuns on a 90 second cooldown, while Mind has no equivalent, is just sad. It's been a weak set since day one, but the gimp power brigade loves their ugly darlings, so rush out every time people try to make it not crap.

 

Mass Confusion should be on a 120 second recharge, with TK's cost significantly reduced. 

[SaddestGhost]

33 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Just a solid no.

 

Sleeps are far more useful than people give them credit for. Aim a sleep at anything throwing a dispersion bubble. Watch a sleep shut down an AV.

 

Mind is insanely (heh) flexible and useful.

In an effort to be constructive could you explain what specifically  you object to?  For instance, I don't like the idea of adding an immobilize to sleeps.  One of the uses I find for Mass Hypnosis is sleeping a group and  peeling away a troublesome mob.  Adding some debuffs to sleeps, however, doesn't interfere with that tactic so that's a change I would be open to.

[Greycat]

11 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

but the gimp power brigade loves their ugly darlings, so rush out every time people try to make it not crap.

So you actually don't have an argument and want to insult people that acutally play it. Nice to see the conversation's not worthwhile this fast so I don't waste my time.

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

So you actually don't have an argument and want to insult people that acutally play it. Nice to see the conversation's not worthwhile this fast so I don't waste my time.

Nah, you think that because I said something that could be taken as slightly mean, I made no points. You are clearly wrong, but its a common enough debate tactic for everyone to recognize. Flail around on the floor like an NBA player lightly brushed while crying "ad hominem!".

Edited March 30, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[Redlynne]

Just now, Greycat said:

so I don't waste my time.

You've already wasted our time, so it's only fair ...

 

/em rimshot

[Bossk_Hogg]

20 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

In an effort to be constructive could you explain what specifically  you object to?  For instance, I don't like the idea of adding an immobilize to sleeps.  One of the uses I find for Mass Hypnosis is sleeping a group and  peeling away a troublesome mob.  Adding some debuffs to sleeps, however, doesn't interfere with that tactic so that's a change I would be open to.

Sleep, at minimum, should prone the target so it has to waste a tiny amount of time standing up.

[Greycat]

Just now, Redlynne said:

You've already wasted our time, so it's only fair ...

 

/em rimshot

Excuse me? I disagree with the OP from the very first sentence of Mind being on the "weak" side of Control. You consider that a waste of time? I played mind *heavily* on live and am working some Minds up here. About the *only* thing I can agree with is that TK is situational and often skippable. Yes, Plant gets a confuse power - that causes aggro. Tradeoff for getting it earlier, and they only get one. (I'll point out Plant also gets a sleep.) And +Mag to confuse a boss - if you want that, run a dom.

 

If I want solid *control,* I go with mind. If I want control with various debuffs (or placed patches) I go with other sets, all the way to little control, lots of chaos and hey, two invisibilities, there's Illusion.

[Communistpenguin]

24 minutes ago, Greycat said:

If I want solid *control,* I go with mind. If I want control with various debuffs (or placed patches) I go with other sets, all the way to little control, lots of chaos and hey, two invisibilities, there's Illusion.

Honestly, I dont get why you think mind is heavy on control? It gets a ST sleep an aoe sleep, a st hold, an aoe hold, a st confuse an aoe confuse, a cone fear and telekinesis, which is its own animal entirely. It has no Immobilizations, no slows, no stuns, no end drain, no terrify patches like caltrops, no aoe kD/KB like bonfire. These are all various forms of control, whether you approve of them or not. My suggestion was to make the smallest possible changes while allowing mind bring more to a group setting. I can appreciate that mind has its own flavor, but sleeps have very little utility by themselves. A sleep paired with an immobilization allows you to shut down incoming damage via the sleep and still have some sort of effect a second later when your team hits them with an aoe damage power. 

[MTeague]

I'd like to remove the Repel effect from TK.  Keep the Hold, nix the Repel.  Other than that, I don't think it needs any changes, not even to it's endurance cost.  But if TK is kept exactly as is, I'd still take it.  MOST of the time I need a "This Cannot Miss" extra hold, I'm indoors anyway, and it's not that that hard to position myself so there's a wall / corner to use the Repelling into.

 

Sleeps, I'm quite happy with as they are.  I don't think a Immob or Knockdown is needed.

I would not argue against Mass Hyp reapplying a Sleep effect every few seconds.  Not an immob, not a knockdown, not a stun. A SLEEP. 

 

Will this make Mass Hyp more popular in groups? Perhaps not. Do I care?  No, not really.  I main a Mind/Kin and between my Holds and Confuses and Fear, i can lock down groups when needed just fine.  Sleeps are primarily to BYPASS a group you don't want to fight, and a short-term re-application of a sleep effect would be nice to stop accidental breaks. But I dont' think sleep should be meant to stick through sustained incoming damage. 

 

I'd like to see Mass Confusion, a T9, have a cooldown not so many times larger than that of Seeds of Confusion, which is available so very much earlier.

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

Sleep is tremendously overpowered solo or on small teams that know how it works.  It is mainly useless on zerg teams.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Sleep, at minimum, should prone the target so it has to waste a tiny amount of time standing up.

Also, they should then have to /em drinking a cup of tea for at least five minutes before they can manage to do anything else.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

Just a solid no.

 

Sleeps are far more useful than people give them credit for. Aim a sleep at anything throwing a dispersion bubble. Watch a sleep shut down an AV.

 

Mind is insanely (heh) flexible and useful.

Factually inaccurate.

 

Mind, while fun, is actually among the weakest control sets.

 

Sleep is situational, at best, and is negated by any damage. The fact that mind has 2 of them renders  two of it's powers nigh useless in 90% of play.

 

TeleK is a hard pass, no use outside of griefing yourself and your team.

 

Mass confusion has much too long of a cooldown.

 

Mass confusion is the "pet."

 

Lift is...lift.

 

Now compare this to earth, fire, ice, plant or dark.

 

Nothin in Mind gives anywhere near that utility, control or mitigation.

 

I get you like mind, I do too, but let's face actual facts, mind is near the bottom, due to sleep, teleK, recharge, no ept and no secondary effects to speak of. It needs help badly 

Edited March 30, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Just a solid no.

 

Sleeps are far more useful than people give them credit for. Aim a sleep at anything throwing a dispersion bubble. Watch a sleep shut down an AV.

 

Mind is insanely (heh) flexible and useful.

I'm sure it won't be helpful, but I'd like to try to come at this without personal attacks or assumptions.  So let's get objective:

Would you say a Sleep effect is half as effective as a Disorient? (Mass Hypnosis has half the recharge as Flashfire/Stalagmites)
Would you say a Sleep effect is half as effective as continual knockdown? (Mass Hypnosis has a duration between 0 and 22 seconds while Ice Slick has a 30 second duration and keeps reapplying.  MH also has, again, half the recharge of Ice Slick)

 

So this is the burden of proof Mind Control has to bring: in almost every situation, a Sleep effect is a 1-second Hold, but at half the recharge of other similarly powers.

 

I would argue the only way this would make sense was if it was very strong on the fights where it applies.  An example, here, is -Regen.  This is a pointless stat in most of CoH, right up until you fight an AV.  (It's also really terrible game design, btw, so I would hope Sleeps never end up in this position)

 

Finally, if you can argue all of that in favor of Mind Control, we have one final comparison:

Mass Hypnosis 30 seconds, 25 radius, single Sleep pulse

VS

Static Field 40 seconds, 20 radius, continually re-applying sleep.

 

There is just no way that makes sense as a point of comparison.

 

That said, I still continue to push for 1-2 "sleep echoes" only as opposed to full duration, and find other ways to buff the effect as discussed in the Sleep thread.  Do these things, and we fix a lot more content than Mind Control.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Replacement

[SaddestGhost]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Excuse me? I disagree with the OP from the very first sentence of Mind being on the "weak" side of Control. You consider that a waste of time? I played mind *heavily* on live and am working some Minds up here. About the *only* thing I can agree with is that TK is situational and often skippable. Yes, Plant gets a confuse power - that causes aggro. Tradeoff for getting it earlier, and they only get one. (I'll point out Plant also gets a sleep.) And +Mag to confuse a boss - if you want that, run a dom.

 

If I want solid *control,* I go with mind. If I want control with various debuffs (or placed patches) I go with other sets, all the way to little control, lots of chaos and hey, two invisibilities, there's Illusion.

We can also look at Electric's confuse.  It's also aggro-free, comes in 6 levels earlier, and has the same recharge as Seeds.  The only trade off is the chaining mechanic.  In my opinion, it easily demonstrates that reducing Mass Confusion's recharge won't suddenly make Mind overpowered.

 

8 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Telekinesis just needs an overhaul urban renewal in how the power "works" under the hood.  Keep the concept, but very nearly totally rework the means.

UNNERF TELEKINESIS already!!!

 

Cut the recharge on Total Domination and Mass Confusion down to 180s.

 

That would go a LONG WAY towards fixing the (perceived) problems with Mind Control.

I rather like your idea for TK.  Honestly, I think upping the target cap on it is all it needs to make it an every spawn power.   With the ability to cancel the repel, it would become a must have even with its heavy endurance cost.

 

4 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Sleep, at minimum, should prone the target so it has to waste a tiny amount of time standing up.

On live, I used the knockback proc in Terrify and found it helped mitigate the alpha strike so I do like the idea for sleep, but I would like to see something that improves all sleeps in general.  Currently Flash Freeze and Salt Crystals have unique animations for their sleeps that wouldn't fit well with the idea though.

[Tugzug]

As long as Dominators can still do the same things they can currently do, I'm open to tweaks and changes. Except Telekinesis. I'm okay with that one being entirely reworked.

[Peacemoon]

A lot of people like mind control because it’s different and effective in its own way.  Wouldn’t mind adding a damage-less immobilise to mass hypnosis to help with containment, reducing the cooldown on mass confuse and tweaking telekinesis, but otherwise Mind Control is a great set. My main was Mind control on live and really enjoyed it.

 

I’m against just turning it into every other control set. Mind has a unique and fun play style and toolkit, not replicated in the other sets.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Tugzug said:

As long as Dominators can still do the same things they can currently do, I'm open to tweaks and changes. Except Telekinesis. I'm okay with that one being entirely reworked.

 

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

I’m against just turning it into every other control set. Mind has a unique and fun play style and toolkit, not replicated in the other sets.

 

Got you both covered.

[Blackfeather]

2 hours ago, Tugzug said:

As long as Dominators can still do the same things they can currently do, I'm open to tweaks and changes. Except Telekinesis. I'm okay with that one being entirely reworked.

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

A lot of people like mind control because it’s different and effective in its own way.  Wouldn’t mind adding a damage-less immobilise to mass hypnosis to help with containment, reducing the cooldown on mass confuse and tweaking telekinesis, but otherwise Mind Control is a great set. My main was Mind control on live and really enjoyed it.

 

I’m against just turning it into every other control set. Mind has a unique and fun play style and toolkit, not replicated in the other sets.

5 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Got you both covered.

Likewise, I do as well.

 

(...sorry Red. Again, bias. 😅)

Edited April 1, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Chirikiti]

Mind weak? wow...not.even. close. I specialize in Dominators and Mind is awesome. As is. Out of the box. How anyone can find it weak even at 6th level running kalinda or Mongoose is beyond me. 

Mesmerize is great right off with no slots. Best hold in the game. Mass Hypnosis is a great no damage emergency and facilitator. Confuse is just awesome. Seriously mass hypnosis is great as is, adding subtracting anything from it would be terrible idea. 

 

Seriously you can solo the leveling content on the hardest difficulty with SOs with a mind dom.

 

Don't touch Mind Control, it's perfect as is and awesome out of the gate. Seriously people need to stop fooking with power sets, especially when they can't play them well (yeah I said it)

 

 

Vet Level 1204 Mind/Psi Dominator- Solo'er of all GMs, AVs, Trials, TFs: (4 outstanding from those but the point stands)

[Redlynne]

15 minutes ago, Chirikiti said:

Don't touch Mind Control, it's perfect as is

Uh ... Telekinesis ... is "perfect as is" ...?

 

Fire the Non-Sequitron at full power ...