[Issue 26, Page 6+ Proposal] Redlynne Redesigns Mind Control

[Redlynne]

  

First, credit where credit is due.

 

 

Major objectives of this post are to recover ... THIS ... kind of performance from Telekinesis ...

 

And to reshuffle the effects that Mind Control can make use of for Containment for a better self-synergizing mix.

 

 

---

 

 

The first thing to notice about Mind Control (for the purposes of making slight alterations better aligned to the powerset) is how Containment is implemented in various powers inside the set.

The following coding appears on all of the damaging Mind Control powers ... Mesmerize, Levitate, Dominate and Terrify ... and indeed practically every Controller power that deals damage:

 

PvE damage effects

If (target.kImmobilized > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0) or target.hasTag?(IncarnateBoss)

PvP damage effects

If (target.kImmobilized > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0)

 

What this coding is doing is checking to determine if the $Target is ... Immobilized, Held, Sleeping or Stunned ... the stock and standard conditions for Containment damage to be applied.  So if any of those conditions are met, then Controller primary damage powers add extra damage, producing the Controller styled "conditional critical hit" that is the Containment system.

 

 

 

I propose that this basic expectation of what is used to enable Containment bonus damage be slightly modified.

 

 

 

Here are the modified parameters I would replace the above coding for Mesmerize, Levitate, Dominate and Terrify (only!) with:

 

 PvE damage effects

If (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0) or (target.kTerrorized > 0) or target.hasTag?(IncarnateBoss)

PvP damage effects

If (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0) or (target.kTerrorized > 0)

 

 

Everyone see what I did there?

 

I removed the parameter for Immobilize and replaced it with a parameter for Terrorize ... because Mind Control doesn't have any powers that Immobilize, but does have a power that will Terrorize.  Additionally, just in terms of thematics, Mind Control as a powerset DOES NOT CARE if a $Target's movement is impaired (Immobilize and/or Slow), since Mind Control affects the MIND ... not the BODY ... of $Target(s).  It should therefore go without saying that Mind Control is a battlespace of the mental/psychic, rather than a battle for control of the (merely) physical.  In that context, whether a $Target is Immobile (but still otherwise able to act freely) is quite irrelevant to Mind Control powers.

 

Think of Terrorized status as being "Immobilization for the Mind" and the change will make enough sense for almost everyone reading this post to understand.

 

 

 

Implementing this for Mind Control would be so trivially easy that I'm presuming it could be done by a dev with access (or me, if I had access and knew where to do it) in less than 5 minutes.

It would (I presume) be as simple as doing a copy/paste to replace coding on a mere FOUR POWERS in Mind Control using what I have posted above for the "copy" part.

 

S imple

E asy

E ffective

 

... not being done ...

... yet ...

 

 

---

 

 

The other major change that I would make would be to massively overhaul Telekinesis in ways that are inspired by the Impact system implemented for Gravity Control, albeit with a SLIGHT variation to implement the sort of idea into Telekinesis properly.

 

 

 

So the first thing to understand is how Gravity Control set up the interaction between Gravity Distortion, Lift and Propel were coded.

 

In Gravity Distortion, one of the power effects that you'll see is the following:

Add token GravityDistortion

You then see the corresponding programming on Lift and Propel:

If now - target.TokenTime(GravityDistortion) < 12

What this does is apply a "timestamp marker" to the $Target that records WHEN Gravity Distortion was used on the $Target, which is then relevant to the Lift and Propel powers for Impact.  For the extra damage for the Impact to occur, the use of Lift or Propel needs to be within 12 seconds of when Gravity Distortion was last used on the $Target.

 

That's how it works.

It just compares the current time to when Gravity Distortion was used, and if that time span between Now and Then is less than 12 seconds, Lift and Propel do extra Impact damage.

 

Note that this means that it is perfectly possible to "wait too long" after use of Gravity Distortion, while a $Target continues to be Held, and not be able to gain additional Impact damage, even though the duration of Gravity Distortion's Hold has not yet expired.  What matters is that there is a window of opportunity (12 seconds long) after use of Gravity Distortion to get extra damage from Impact, and if you want to repeatedly score extra Impact damage you will need to recast Gravity Distortion faster than once every 12 seconds on the $Target.

 

 

 

So this is one Known Working Technology™ already implemented in game by Paragon Studios to link different powers within a set together so as to produce additional effects when powers are used in tandem with each other.

 

 

---

 

 

So ... Telekinesis.

 

Here is how Telekinesis is currently written up at the Wayback Machine for City of Data:

Spoiler

Level	12
Type	Toggle
PvE damage scale	0.000000
Accuracy	1
Modes required
Modes disallowed	Disable_All, Defiant
Range	50 feet
Activate period	0.5 seconds
Interrupt time	-
Cast time	1.13 seconds
Recharge time	60 seconds
Endurance cost	1.56
Attack types
Effect area	Sphere
Radius	10 feet
Arc	-
Max targets hit	5
Entities affected	Foe
Entities autohit	Foe
Target	Foe
Target visibility	Line of Sight
Nofity Mobs	Always

 

Self:

• Grant power: Temporary_Powers.Temporary_Powers.KillTk

Target:

• 1.397s Held (mag 3)
• 1 Repel for 0.75s
• 0.75s Held (mag 3)

 

What this does is costs 3.12 endurance per second to activate twice per second for a 1.397s (PvE)/0.75s (PvP) mag 3 Hold that does not stack with itself (to prevent the mag from exceeding 3) and applies a (mag) 1 Repel once per second (because the Repel does not stack with itself) for as long as the toggle is sustained.

 

The most glaring INSULT to be found in this set of parameters is the Max targets hit set at ... A MERE FIVE(!) ... when other AoE Hold powers, such as Nature Affinity's Entangling Aura has a Max targets hit of 16(!) on a power with a 15ft radius and an 0.832 endurance per second cost.

 

But the real kick in the face is the Repel factor ... that can't be controlled or turned off.

 

 

 

This is just flat out BAD GAME DESIGN and it should have been fixed a decade ago (at least!).

 

So here is what I propose be done to Telekinesis here on Homecoming.

Everybody (who cares about this) ready?

Spoiler

Level	12
Type	Toggle
PvE damage scale	0.000000
Accuracy	1
Modes required
Modes disallowed	Disable_All, Defiant
Range	50 feet
Activate period	0.5 seconds
Interrupt time	-
Cast time	1.13 seconds
Recharge time	60 seconds
Endurance cost	1.125
Attack types
Effect area	Sphere
Radius	15 feet
Arc	-
Max targets hit	16
Entities affected	Foe
Entities autohit	Foe
Target	Foe
Target visibility	Line of Sight
Nofity Mobs	Always

 

Self:

• Grant power: Temporary_Powers.Temporary_Powers.KillTk

Target:

• 1.397s Held (mag 3)
• 1 Repel for 0.75s
      If now - target.TokenTime(Levitate) < 2
• 0.75s Held (mag 3)

 

Here are the changes I'm introducing to (my version) of Telekinesis:

1. Endurance cost reduced from 1.56 per 0.5s activation (3.12/s) down to 1.125 per 0.5s activation (2.25/s).
2. Radius increased from 10 feet to 15 feet to prevent Levitate from throwing $Targets out of the AoE with Levitate's base 12.463 Knockup effect.
3. Max targets hit increased from 5 to 16.
4. Repel effect keyed to and triggered by use of Levitate on $Target while Telekinesis is toggled on.

   If now - target.TokenTime(Levitate) < 2

    

By "outsourcing" the keying of the Repel effect to only last for 2 seconds after using Levitate (note that Levitate delays its damage for 2 seconds natively), amounting to 2 "pulses" of Mag 1 Repel affecting the $Target (once while going up and once while falling down) the endurance cost for the Repel effect can also be "outsourced" onto Levitate as well.

 

Levitate costs 6.864 endurance to cast, has a 6s recharge and a 1.87s cast time (not arcanatime).

6.864 / (6+1.87) = 0.872 endurance per second

3.12 - 0.87 = 2.25 endurance per second

 

So although the toggle endurance cost of (my version of) Telekinesis is lowered, if Levitate is used continuously to Repel $Targets then the endurance cost over time remains broadly similar to the legacy 3.12/s rate.

 

By keying the Repel effect of (my version of) Telekinesis to the (obviously) telekinetic attack power Levitate, it becomes possible to "herd" using (my version of) Telekinesis (albeit slowly) and "sculpt" the relative positions of $Targets within the AoE around the anchor in a much more deliberate and controlled fashion ... unlike the legacy behavior of decidedly UNCONTROLLED Repel that can't be disabled without toggling off (legacy) Telekinesis.

 

However, this change will necessitate an update to Levitate in order to complete the upgrade in functionality of Telekinesis.

Here is what needs to be added to Levitate:

Add token Levitate

THAT'S IT.

That's all you need in order to turn Telekinesis into a power that almost everyone who plays Mind Control will want to have, to add to their arsenal of controls ... rather than something that most Mind Control Players will skip without a second thought.

 

 

---

 

 

The only other things that I would ask be done with Mind Control would be ...

 

 

 

To raise the Accuracy modifier of Total Domination and Mass Confusion (0.8) and Terrify (0.9) up to being a consistent 1.0 for all three powers.  ALL of the other powers in Mind Control have an Accuracy modifier of 1.0, 1.1 or 1.2 (and Telekinesis is autohit, of course) ... and the powerset fluff text includes this:

Quote

Since Mental powers directly affect the mind, most tend to be very accurate, and thus very useful against higher level foes.

It's time to actually deliver on that promise.  💫
 

 

 

Reduce the recharge time for Total Domination and Mass Confusion from 240s to 180s (because ... NO PET adding to control potential).

 

 

---

 

 

I'm pretty sure that @Captain Powerhouse could implement this proposal for the next Page update with relatively little difficulty (because I've done the hard part for him).  However ... TESTING the effects of these changes would be another matter entirely, and I figure that's going to be a FAR MORE COMPLEX TASK than simply editing a few parameters in the powers database.

 

 

 

And just because I can hear the Mind Control Dominators salivating over the possibilities already ... I would recommend that these changes I've enumerated here be implemented first for Controllers only, so as to thoroughly test and proof them before porting the (relatively simple coding) changes over to Dominators as well.  My rationale here is a one that some of us may have heard before in a very different context ... TRUST BUT VERIFY.

 

It's going to be a LOT easier on the Homecoming team to "road test" the ideas I've presented here on Controllers first so as to prove out the functionality and ensure there aren't going to be any unforeseen edge cases that inter(re)act weirdly with other things causing stuff to break (horribly).  The spaghetti code base is NOT in the best of shape (to put it mildly, pass the marinara sauce please...) and in terms of Risk Management it would be so much safer to do more controlled testing on Controllers (no pun intended, but it happened anyway...) before proliferating these changes to Dominators.  Once there is confidence that what I'm presenting here won't throw things into chaos(!) ... THEN the path would be clear to porting these changes over to Dominators with confidence.

 

Of course, the Homecoming team has a tendency to implement changes to powersets to all Archetypes simultaneously, so they might not NEED to do a two step process to prove things out on Controllers first before porting all of the changes over to Dominators ... in which case, double yay.  But I'm not going to "volunteer" them for that level of code writing AND playtesting needed up front when I have no idea what their development schedule looks like.  So on this point I'm merely trying to Play It Safe™ and be conservative in my expectations in order to keep things both SIMPLE and easy to manage (go figure, eh?).

 

So yeah ... perhaps TEST TO VERIFY would be a better way of framing my thinking on how quickly to proliferate these changes to Dominators after Controllers.

 

Remember kids ... logic is the best way to come to the WRONG conclusion with confidence!

 

 

 

 

 

Your turn ... Homecoming team ...  ✨

[AngriestGhost]

Wouldn't this implementation cause anyone's Levitate to trigger the repel behavior, much like grav controllers can benefit from someone else setting up Impact?

Edited April 1, 2020 by AngriestGhost

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, AngriestGhost said:

Wouldn't this implementation cause anyone's Levitate to trigger the repel behavior, much like grav controllers can benefit from someone else setting up Impact?

Yes.

The alternative would be to rig things more like Time Crawl where only your Levitate affects only your Telekinesis.

[Uun]

11 hours ago, Redlynne said:

 

I removed the parameter for Immobilize and replaced it with a parameter for Terrorize ... because Mind Control doesn't have any powers that Immobilize, but does have a power that will Terrorize.

Not to hijack the thread, but Illusion should get this too.

[Blackfeather]

3 minutes ago, Uun said:

Not to hijack the thread, but Illusion should get this too.

That's...kind of the textbook example of what hijacking is. 😛

 

Jokes aside, it's a potential thought for sure. Though I don't really think Illusion Control needs the help.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, Uun said:

Not to hijack the thread, but Illusion should get this too.

Wait, what about energy melee?!

[Redlynne]

8 minutes ago, Uun said:

Not to hijack the thread, but Illusion should get this too.

Test drive on Mind Control first before reviewing options for proliferation outwards.  TEST TO VERIFY.

[Tugzug]

Hrm. I'm not sure whether I like this idea or Blackfeather's more. The only issue I can see is that Terrify being the main Containment power would make low levels still a touch awkward, but from what I know that's not oppressive for Mind Control.

 

No Containment for Confused though? I suppose it wouldn't be nearly as necessary with Terrify...

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Tugzug said:

No Containment for Confused though?

Confuse merely changes loyalties, it doesn't "block" $Targets from taking actions (although, to be fair, neither does Immobilize).

 

However, if Confusion were to be added to the "enables Containment" list for Mind Control, I'd recommend doing this:

• Swap Immobilize for Terrorized (shown in original post)
• Swap Stunned for Confused (proposed here)

The coding for how to do this has already been demonstrated in my original post, but just for clarity it would look like this:

 

PvE damage effects

If (target.kConfused > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kTerrorized > 0) or target.hasTag?(IncarnateBoss)

PvP damage effects

If (target.kConfused > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kTerrorized > 0)

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Redlynne

[Tugzug]

I suppose the only cause for concern would be if it created an end result that was way better than other Controller set damage. That said, Terrify and Confuse are kind of at odds with each other (if you inflict AoE Fear on your confused mobs, might as well have not Confused them). Furthermore, Mind Control doesn't really have a lot of AoE damage other than Terrify, which as stated isn't the best synergy... you'd have to either throw down 2 Terrify casts to get Containment damage, or Mass Hypnosis and then that'd break it, or Mass Confusion and lose out on the Confuse damage...

 

Seems like Mind would still have issues rolling out damage.

[Redlynne]

22 minutes ago, Tugzug said:

That said, Terrify and Confuse are kind of at odds with each other (if you inflict AoE Fear on your confused mobs, might as well have not Confused them).

You're thinking two dimensionally about this.  Add another dimension.

If you Terrify Confused $Targets, they'll stop damaging each other (as much) but when you do damage to them they'll attack each other (once) instead of attacking you (assuming you don't have the held).  That means you need to deal more damage proportionally to defeat them (since they aren't helping you defeat themselves as much), but it also makes it safer for you to attack them, so ... tradeoffs.

25 minutes ago, Tugzug said:

Furthermore, Mind Control doesn't really have a lot of AoE damage other than Terrify, which as stated isn't the best synergy... you'd have to either throw down 2 Terrify casts to get Containment damage, or Mass Hypnosis and then that'd break it, or Mass Confusion and lose out on the Confuse damage...

Or open with (my version of) Telekinesis and then use Terrify on them ...

26 minutes ago, Tugzug said:

Seems like Mind would still have issues rolling out damage.

I think that with more frequent use of Telekinesis as an opener (because it isn't self-defeating via uncontrolled Repel!), some of the "low damage" problems would be mitigated.  It would also, ironically make use of Total Domination happen more often to stack(!) with Telekinesis or to be used while Telekinesis is recharging, which would set up Containment quite nicely, wouldn't you say?

[Redlynne]

Ultimately, however, after thinking about everything even more ... the simplest possible solution is to just simply REMOVE REPEL from Telekinesis entirely.  Just remove it.

Please, just drop Repel from Telekinesis already.

It's EASY.

Highlight and DELETE.

It can be done in less that ONE MINUTE.

 

 

 

And I was using Telekinesis today while soloing and found something remarkable.  Unlike other anchor based toggles, Telekinesis will detoggle when the anchor is defeated.  These days, on Homecoming, anchor based toggles don't detoggle until the corpse disappears ... but not for Telekinesis.  Once and anchor reaches 0 HP, Telekinesis detoggles IMMEDIATELY ... dropping the Hold on all of the additional $Targets that were in the AoE radius.

 

Yet another way that Telekinesis has been left behind by all of the updates to the game since the original injustice done to the power with a Max Targets limit being set at B.F.In' FIVE by Cryptic Studios more than a decade ago.  This ... for a power that has a base endurance cost (3.12/s) that is 287%(!!) of base endurance recovery (1.67/s).

[SaddestGhost]

Years ago on Live, I played around with TK and Sonic Cage (because it came earlier than Detention Field).  If  you caged the anchor, it continued to repel the other targets until the reached the range limit of TK.  They'd drop out, maybe fire back, or run back into the TK.  It wasn't very useful.  I'd imagine TK remaining on a defeated enemy would produce the same effect unless the body slides across the floor.

 

I may be wrong, but I though Repel, Whirlwind, etc. got an endurance reduction in a recent pass through. TK is left as the most expensive toggle left.  Heck, Forcefields can run Force Bubble, Repulsion Field, and Dispersion Bubble at the same time for cheaper.  You can run Enervating Field, Radiation Infection, AND Choking Cloud at the same time for cheaper. Storm can run Snow Storm, Steamy Mist, and Hurricane for cheaper.   Tactics, Maneuvers, and Assault all together run for cheaper.  The more I look at it the more I realize TK isn't just a skippable power; it's broken.

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

This ... for a power that has a base endurance cost (3.12/s) that is 287%(!!) of base endurance recovery (1.67/s).

I think you better check your math... 3.12 is not even double 1.67, let alone nearly triple.

[Redlynne]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

I think you better check your math... 3.12 is not even double 1.67, let alone nearly triple.

Gah ... pytos.  Literally an "off by one error" ...

 

3.12 / 1.67 = 186.82%

[Zepp]

Just to summarize:

Remove Immobilize and add Terrorize to Containment

Overhaul Telekinesis (reduce endurance cost, increase the radius and target cap, have it function until corpse poof, and tie the repel to Levitate or remove?)

Raise AoE accuracy

 

Other discussion included expansion to Illusion and the consideration of Confuse.

 

My question about containment is, why replace rather than add. I understand why it is particularly useful for Mind Control (and Illusion), but why not expand it to five control types rather than just four. It would address issues containment has with tetraphobia while making it more useful for the two sets that were forgotten by containment.

 

The TK overhaul seems necessary, but it may lead to TK being too powerful. I'm on the side of removal of repel rather than tying powers together. Alternatively, this would be a good candidate for testing vectored repel (pushing from 15m away from the target towards the target). That being said, I think it is worth a shot, although I would probably go with a cap of 8-12 rather than 16 because of the nature of the power.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Zepp

[Redlynne]

3 hours ago, Zepp said:

My question about containment is, why replace rather than add.

Because replacement is the more conservative option, and it's something which won't inherently require other Control sets to be similarly modified (they can be, but they don't have to be).  The current Containment scheme is a One Size Fits All™ that doesn't fit Mind Control all that well (only Holds and Sleeps are produced by Mind Control, which is merely 2 out of 4).  Doing a replace rather than an add preserves the balance of Containment via alternative means that is relevant to the context of Mind Control as a powerset specifically.  So replace rather than add meets the criteria of merely doing what is necessary (and no more) while mitigating the clamor for "so where's my buff?" that would come from every other powerset if using add rather than replace.  Powerset jealousy is a thing, and replace rather than add tamps down on that (inevitable) backlash.

3 hours ago, Zepp said:

The TK overhaul seems necessary, but it may lead to TK being too powerful. I'm on the side of removal of repel rather than tying powers together. That being said, I think it is worth a shot, although I would probably go with a cap of 8-12 rather than 16 because of the nature of the power.

I'd be fine with Telekinesis being overhauled to bring it in line with Entangling Aura in Nature Affinity, which is also an autohit AoE Hold power.

Cross compare these two powers and see if you can figure out which one should be the model to follow

 

Telekinesis (toggle)

Range: 50ft

Cast time: 1.13s

Recharge time: 60s

Activation interval: 0.5s

Endurance cost: 1.56 (3.12/s)

Radius: 10 ft Sphere

Max targets: 5 <--

Autohit: Foe

1.397s mag 3 Hold (PvE, does not stack)

1 Repel for 0.75s (does not stack, DO NOT WANT!!!!!)

Accepts no set IOs

 

Entangling Aura (toggle)

Range: none (PBAoE)

Cast time: 2.03s

Recharge time: 20s

Activation interval: 5s

Endurance cost: 4.16 (0.832/s)

Radius: 15 ft Sphere

Max targets: 16 <--

Autohit: Foe

4s mag 2 Hold (50% chance, PvE, does not stack)

4s mag 1 Hold (80% chance, PvE, does not stack)

Accepts Hold and Controller ATO sets

 

Chance for a Mag 2+1 Hold to proc per activation of Entangling Aura = 0.5 * 0.8 = 40%

 

 

 

So EVEN IF we take the 40% chance of a mag 3 hold out of Entangling Aura and multiply it by 2.5x to get 100% ... and then take that 2.5x multiplier and use it on the endurance cost to account for the improved "always hits for mag 3 Hold" purpose would mean that Telekinesis ought to have an endurance cost of 0.832 * 2.5 = 2.08/s ... in terms of equivalent cost(s) for identical services while toggled on ... meaning that a whopping 1/3rd of the exorbitant endurance cost of Telekinesis is being literally drained away by a 1.04/s cost to inflict the (UNWANTED!!!!) Repel effect, which is similar to (but higher than) the cost of actually running the Repel power out of Kinetics (which costs 0.39/s endurance per 0.5s activation for the toggle itself and an additional -1 Endurance per Repel hit on $Target).

 

Which leads me to be believe that a FAIR endurance cost price for Telekinesis would be 1.04 endurance per 0.5s activation or 2.08/s base ... not 3.12/s base.

 

But then as if that PENALTY were not enough ...

• Entangling Aura recharges in 20s instead of 60s ... so 3x advantage to Entangling Aura.
• Entangling Aura has a 15 ft radius instead of a 10 ft radius ... so 1.5x advantage to Entangling Aura.
• Entangling Aura hits up to 16 $Targets instead of merely 5 ... so 3.2x advantage to Entangling Aura.
• Entangling Aura accepts Hold enhancements, Hold sets and Controller ATO sets while Telekinesis does not ... so MASSIVE SLOTTING ADVANTAGE to Entangling Aura!!!

That's a whopping 14.4x advantage to Entangling Aura without even accounting for the benefits of being able to slot sets!

 

 

 

And what does Telekinesis get in return for all of those disadvantages it has been larded up with for no good reason?

• A Repel effect that is self-gimping/self-defeating for how the Players want to use the power WHICH CANNOT BE CONTROLLED OR DISABLED AND IS NOT WANTED!!!!
• 50 ft range when casting, rather than being a PBAoE that follows the caster around.

THAT'S IT.

 

 

 

Telekinesis is GIMPED BY DESIGN ... and only a redesign of the power will bring it back towards a semblance of balance.

Telekinesis is LONG OVERDUE an overhaul, and it wouldn't be hard to do.

1. Remove and discard the Repel effect.  There is NO NEED OR DESIRE for this effect!
2. Increase the radius to 15ft.
3. Reduce the endurance cost from 1.56 per activation to 1.04 per activation, while keeping the activation at 0.5s.
4. Increase the Max targets from 5 to 16.
5. Increase the Range from 50 to 80 ft.
6. Adjust auto-detoggle from anchor to occur when anchor despawns, rather than when anchor is defeated.
7. Allow Telekinesis to accept Hold enhancements, Hold sets and Controller ATO sets, which would make a wide variety of proc options available to the power.

There.

Fixed.

 

S imple

E asy

E ffective

 

... not being done ...

... yet ...

[Zepp]

@Redlynne

I understand your verbosely proposed point. Let me try to clarify my position.

While I understand that there would be a difference in the amount of work needed for the change to be implemented across all controller powersets, it is generally better for game design to have an AT inherent effect be universal rather than powerset specific. Furthermore, Illusion control is in a worse position for containment as their AoE Hold has an excessively long animation and they have no stun or immobilize (and only a weak chance for sleep via a pseudopet). In other words, illusion control only has one power that can be used for containment.

In addition, changes to one powerset in the manner you suggest would make the presence pool more valuable for Mind Control Trollers than for other Trollers.

 

1. In terms of TK, as stated before I support either the removal of repel or using vectored repel centered on the target.
2. I agree with increasing the radius.
3. I agree with reducing the endurance cost.
4. Get back to this in a second.
5. I agree with increasing the range.
6. I am in tentative agreement on the detoggle - needs playtesting.
7. I definitely agree that TK should take Hold & Troller enhancements.

Back to point 4, with your example, Entangling Aura has a target cap of 16, but %s. That means that on average it is hitting 6 targets with a mag 3, 1 target with a mag 2, 7 targets with a mag 1, and 2 targets with nothing. Which is why I suggested 8-12 targets.

 

Thanks for your response, but try not to over-react when someone is agreeing with most of your points.

 

[Wavicle]

I agree with a lot of this, perhaps not all but that's ok.

I should point out that Mind Control DOES get a 16 target AoE Hold already, and perhaps not having TWO such powers is actually good design.

[SaddestGhost]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I agree with a lot of this, perhaps not all but that's ok.

I should point out that Mind Control DOES get a 16 target AoE Hold already, and perhaps not having TWO such powers is actually good design.

Other sets effectively have that via stun+immobilize or confuse+immobilize.  In my experience with Mind/Rad, even having the a third hard control in the form of EMP Pulse wasn't enough to compare with the every spawn control you find in other sets.  For a set that sacrifices a great deal in terms of damage (lack of containment, slower charging AoE damage power, and no pet), more control should at least be the compensation.  Other sets have been buffed through a few changes (reducing knock back protection in the AoE immobilizes, the knockback > knockdown IO) that have allowed them to leverage their controls for more damage. 

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

Other sets effectively have that via stun+immobilize or confuse+immobilize.  In my experience with Mind/Rad, even having the a third hard control in the form of EMP Pulse wasn't enough to compare with the every spawn control you find in other sets.  For a set that sacrifices a great deal in terms of damage (lack of containment, slower charging AoE damage power, and no pet), more control should at least be the compensation.  Other sets have been buffed through a few changes (reducing knock back protection in the AoE immobilizes, the knockback > knockdown IO) that have allowed them to leverage their controls for more damage. 

Not arguing that it’s necessarily sufficient, but I think Mass Confusion was supposed to provide that.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

I think Mass Confusion was supposed to provide that.

Supposed to ... but after the iron cored nerf bat that hit ALL AoE mez powers (half duration and double recharge for 1/4 the uptime) ... it doesn't anymore.

Everything else got tweaked while Mind Control languished.

[SwitchFade]

I posted this on blackfeathers thread, reposting here also, as both threads are good, and Mind needs more attention. Arise, thread!

 

On live, I had a mind/kin controller I took to 40ish. She stagnated. After a time, I felt like resurrection, not just of this thread, but of the mind controller.

 

However, I became curious about dominators. After reading a good deal and finding very little concerning mind/psi Dom's, I rolled one.

 

Mind/psi/psi. I trudged that all the way to 50 with a very expensive build. It was very un-fun. The damage was low, the control was poor, even in perma Dom and she died easily from mass aggro.

 

I was disheartened. I read more, looked at other epics and decided on ice. Reroll! This was markedly better. The debuff in sleet helped damage. Yet, even in Teams she was fragile. Solo, it was torture.

 

I played and played, reworked and stared at mids. Ranged defense is 45% and recharge is 171%. Perma Dom, perma hasten, all the goodies.

 

Now, I love controllers and this was my first Dom. My earth/storm controller is absolutely amazing. The stunny boom boom. Huge control, massive holds, stuns and knockdown. Tons of damage and all typed defenses at 43%+. She's a Monster, transforming any team she's on. She was potent from lvl 25 on.

 

I kept trying to love mind/psi, and doms, and just really had not much fun. I became curious if it was me, the sets or doms.

 

So I rolled am earth/earth Dom. Good Lord, instantly 100 times better. From lvl 6 on, the set is potent! Control, damage, mitigation... It's all there. She's only lvl 24 and already more capable.

 

Enough of that, this is about mind. So, this made me even more curious. I recall seeing so many threads about mind, why this, fix that and so forth. Was psi that bad of a pairing? Was something else more synergistic?

 

Now, I have many controllers. Earth, fire, grav, elec and all of them are able to control and mitigate well using just the primary. Sure, the secondary can make a big difference, yet, every controller I have can lock, hold and afk. That made me just determined.

 

I went back to the mind/psi Dom and built, rebuilt, respecced again and again, to no avail. In perma Dom, the control ability of a Dominator should be second to none. And, mind just....... ISN'T.

 

I tried every attack chain, every combination and every rotation. I opened with terrify, bad the pot shot retaliation is just brutal. I opened with mass hypnosis, to cut retaliatory alpha down and while this helps, it's not very effective. Both mass confusion and total domination are great openers, and recharge solo slowly...

 

Opening with total Dom or mass confusion is great alpha mitigation. The issue with that is the absolutely snail pace one plays at waiting for one or the other to recharge. On top of that, total Dom doesn't last long and the abysmal damage that mind/psi does overall (due to being so heavily resisted late game) means the MOBs are out and unloading attacks, forcing an attempt to try and use mass confuse all the time, or try and hold and confuse targets one at a time rapidly... While being just attacked.

 

I tried everything. Play at range, avoid the big attacks. Hybrid ranged/melee and get drain off at 5-6 stacks minimum for big regen. All melee to really use psi scream... Nothing worked WELL. If I'm on a team, I can contribute and help a bit, but I'm basically along for the show. Not much to offer.

 

I sat and spammed every control primary I had on multiple factions and watched and times survivability, then switched to controllers in the flavor of earth, grav, fire, elec... ALL were sueprior. I could hold and stuff a large group of high level foes indefinitely on a controller without using any of my secondary. Not possible with the mind primary on a Dom, because when total Dom and mass confuse are down, it's danger time, with so little defense or resist.

 

I'm convinced now, that Mind is sub par and has some substantial, yet easy to fix, issues. *Gulp* here we go...

 

Mind primary

 

Terrify

 

On paper, is amazing. I practice, the alpha pot shots are murderous. Terrify should mitigate that, with SOMETHING. Debuff tohit, 3 second stun in the beginning... Anything to cut down on the return fire.

 

Total domination

 

follows the generic nerfage that all AoE holds had, but in this case it should be changed for this set. Mind lacks significantly in the hard control, it needs a faster recharging total domination.

 

TeleK

 

is worthless. I have no idea what would be best for this, maybe mass levitate style like psi assault. Really, this is a terrible power. Maybe even just nix the repel.

 

Mass hypnosis 

 

Where do I begin... With sets like electricity around, pulsing sleep, this power is a straight purple set mule, and MAYBE a situational power for AVs, but for most normal play, it's limited. Shut off a tsoo sorc, sure... But, so much lost potential. It should pulse like elec or apply a massive tohit, anything to add value.

 

Mass confusion

 

Now, this is just about amazing. Until you wait 60 damned seconds with 180% recharge... Just to use it again. I'm not saying it should be up in 20 seconds, but the fact that it's 60 seconds makes this a power that is just not very fun. It REALLY should recharge in 30 seconds at 180% recharge. He'll, domination comes up sooner!

 

Psi secondary

 

Hoo boy. Way too low damage. Much too resisted. We know the resisted part isn't going away, too much work to change and balance issues, but damn. It's terrible! Sure, a few attacks, like the snipe, hit very hard. The others? Meh. Add secondary effects to one or two of the powers to make this set have vlaue.

 

Psi shockwave

 

I have this on my DP/mental blaster, it's a great AoE layer. Here? Somehow worse, due to the lower damage scale. Psi scream should apply a damage resist debuff or stun or knockdown. Something to add survivability or damage.

 

Psi Lance

 

This attack is actually solid, I like this one and it works well.

 

Mental blast and subdue

 

Gee, this is like a song where the 3rd verse is a repeat of the second. Like, we just couldn't be bothered to come up with one more goodie for psi... Heck, just copy, rename and add a paltry secondary switch up. One of these needs a rework, and a big secondary add, like dam resist debuff.

 

Psi scream

 

A cone. Ok, that's cool. Low damage. Meh. I like this attack, other than it suffers from being more of a tickle to MOBs. It needs, more oomph.

 

Drain psyche

 

Very good power, nothing bad about it as far as I am concerned. Really, the only reason to take psi, at the moment.

 

The other single target attacks are just... There.

 

In the end, oddly, mind and psi are not as synergystic as I would hope and mind suffers from very sub par control, mitigation and damage. Psi suffers from low damage potential, no solid secondary effects and repetitive carbon copy powers.

 

Mind absolutely needs a rework.

[MTeague]

My checklist for any Mind Control Overhaul

• I do NOT want a pet.  I want my Confuses.  
• I do NOT want a dedicated Immob power.  I like my Sleeps. 
• I would like to see the cooldown on Mass Confuse significantly reduced. 
  • I accept it will probably never go as low as Seeds of Confusion (which is honestly gloriously OP), but i'd like it dropped to 50% of the current Mass Confuse cooldown, OR, set to 150% the Seeds of Confusion cooldown, whichever is GREATER.  I mean, I get that Seeds is OP, but Mass Confuse is a T9 control power here.  It's the "Control" nuke.
• For Teleknesis, I would like to see one of two things.
  • EITHER, remove the repel (and adjust max number of targets downward, if it's considered too OP), 
  • OR, make it a location click power that repels affect targets to the selected location, and immobs once they are at the target location.  (if the technology / engine can support this)
  • in both cases, I would want the endurance cost to remain Quite High.  either change would make this signifcantly more powerful than it currently is.   It should be DIFFICULT / impossible to perma this. 
• Confuse should trigger containment.  The target trusts you and is enthralled by you to the point of attacking their own allies.  They should be completely blindsided / taken unaware by any attack you use against them. 

Since @Redlynne's list appears to qualify for all of the above (in one measure or another), I support his proposed changes.

 

I have not experienced the problem @SwitchFade has had with Terrify.  Maybe I have decent defense and they miss my Mind/Kin, maybe I'm just used to healing back up with Transfusion so much I don't even think about it.  I would be okay with some kind of unenhanceable short term stun or unenhancemable to-hit debuff on Terrify if that's what it took to mitigate a returning volley fire when terrifying a crowd.   Or maybe no changes at all, and just once TK has been enhanced you just TK, and then Terrify and the TK will prevent return fire for you (as well as trigger containment....)

Edited June 22, 2020 by MTeague

[Redlynne]

21 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Terrify

On paper, is amazing. I practice, the alpha pot shots are murderous. Terrify should mitigate that, with SOMETHING. Debuff tohit, 3 second stun in the beginning... Anything to cut down on the return fire.

 

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

I have not experienced the problem @SwitchFade has had with Terrify.

I would be okay with some kind of unenhanceable short term stun or unenhancemable to-hit debuff on Terrify if that's what it took to mitigate a returning volley fire when terrifying a crowd.

 

There's an even simpler solution to the Terrify draws alpha strike problem ... so simple I'm surprised that no one has offered it yet.

 

Here are the stats for Terrify on a Controller ...

 

Level	26
Type	Click
PvE damage scale	1.000000
Accuracy	0.9
Modes required
Modes disallowed	Disable_All
Range	60 feet
Activate period	-
Interrupt time	-
Cast time	2.03 seconds
Recharge time	40 seconds
Endurance cost	20.8
Attack types	Psionic
Effect area	Cone
Radius	60 feet
Arc	90 degrees
Max targets hit	16
Entities affected	Foe
Entities autohit
Target	Foe
Target visibility	Line of Sight
Nofity Mobs	Always

 

Target:

• 27.938s Terrorized (mag 3) (after 0.25 second delay)
• 30.59 Psionic damage
• 30.59 Psionic damage
  If (target.kImmobilized > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0) or target.hasTag?(IncarnateBoss)

   
• 38.14 Psionic damage
• 19.07 Psionic damage
  If (target.kImmobilized > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0)

   
• 18.625s Terrorized (mag 1) (after 0.25 second delay) (20% chance)
• 4s Terrorized (mag 4) (after 0.25 second delay)

 

 

Here's how you could change that to prevent retaliatory alpha strikes ... with changes in BOLD TEXT ...

 

Target:

• 1s Confused (mag 3.5)
• 27.938s Terrorized (mag 3) (after 0.25 second delay)
• 30.59 Psionic damage (after 0.5 second delay)
• 30.59 Psionic damage (after 0.5 second delay)
  If (target.kImmobilized > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0) or target.hasTag?(IncarnateBoss)

   
• 38.14 Psionic damage (after 0.5 second delay)
• 19.07 Psionic damage (after 0.5 second delay)
  If (target.kImmobilized > 0) or (target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0) or (target.kStunned > 0)

   
• 18.625s Terrorized (mag 1) (after 0.25 second delay) (20% chance)
• 4s Terrorized (mag 4) (after 0.25 second delay)

 

 

THAT'S IT.

That's all it takes.

 

What the change does it it makes Terrify do a TEMPORARY Confuse effect for ONE SECOND.

That then causes affected $Targets to attack each other rather than the caster.  The basic idea is to induce a panic attack as the onset of the terror, such that the $Targets cannot tell the difference between friend or foe (so they preferentially attack their friends who are presumably closer to them).  This Confuse effect lasts only for one second and purely serves as a means to mitigate an incoming alpha strike on the caster.  Note that the Confuse effect carries the (unresistable) and (ignores enhancements and buffs) markers.

 

After a 0.25 second delay the Terrorize effect is applied, while the Confuse is still in effect.

After a 0.5 second delay the Psionic damage is applied.

 

So the sequencing of events is Confusion, Fear then Damage.

 

Or to mis-quote a wonderfully memorable moment from S01E05 of Babylon 5, Parliament of Dreams ...

 

You will know Fear.

You will know Pain.

And then you will Faceplant.

 

 

 

THAT is how Terrorize ought to work for Mind Control.