[Request] Can Jab get some love?

[Bopper]

Jab is the worst T1 melee attack in the game. It is slow (for a T1) and it is weak (for anything). Honestly, since Bruising has been removed, Jab is less useful than Boxing...even without synergy. Here is a breakdown of the DPA (Scaled Base Damage per Arcanatime).

 

 

As you can see, Jab is only better in DPA than Brawl and the Slow Defensive Sweep; however, Defensive Sweep is an AoE that would out DPA Jab if it hits more than one enemy. Even worse, Jab is less than half the DPA of Broad Sword's Hack. 

 

All I ask/request, is for Jab to have a DPA that is more in line with the other T1 melee attacks. There are two ways going about this, buff the damage or decrease the animation time. Personally, if the power is called Jab, I would like to see it have a quick rabbit-punch animation, something quick like Gambler's Cut, which has a 0.67s animation time. With an animation that quick, you're looking at an arcanatime of 0.924s and a DPA of 0.736, which puts is just behind a max-synergy Boxing.

 

If changing the animation can't be done (*sad face*), then a simple buff to put it in line with other attacks should be sufficient. A damage scale of 0.84 would give it the same DPA as Dual Blade's Nimble Slash, which is also just behind a max-synergy Boxing.

 

Again, I would love/prefer for Jab to be turned into a Rabbit Punch animation that puts it as fast as Katana's Gambler's Cut (fastest melee attack in the game). But if resources for such a thing is limited, than a buff to 0.84 scale would still accomplish the request.

[Vanden]

Swap Jab with Punch, making Jab the T2, then give Jab back Bruising and give it a non-stacking 4-second defense buff on a successful hit. This gives Jab a unique niche, where you willingly lower your own DPS to increase the team's overall DPS and your own survivability. The short-duration defense buff is long enough for you to use any other move in between refreshing the defense buff and resistance debuff, even Knockout Blow.

 

Super Strength is definitely on the devs radar, with changes a matter of when, not if. There's no doubt Jab will get something when that time comes, and I'd prefer this new wrinkle over a simple DPA increase.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Vanden

[Bopper]

43 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Swap Jab with Punch, making Jab the T2, then give Jab back Bruising and give it a non-stacking 4-second defense buff on a successful hit. This gives Jab a unique niche, where you willingly lower your own DPS to increase the team's overall DPS and your own survivability. The short-duration defense buff is long enough for you to use any other move in between refreshing the defense debuff, even Knockout Blow.

 

Super Strength is definitely on the devs radar, with changes a matter of when, not if. There's no doubt Jab will get something when that time comes, and I'd prefer this new wrinkle over a simple DPA increase.

You could go that route. Punch has a DPA that puts it just ahead of +1 Synergy Boxing, which isn't good (still bottom quartile among T1s), but it would no longer be laughably behind the rest of the sets.

 

I did think about introducing Bruising again, just for Jab. Doing so would not require it to be moved from its T1 spot, necessarily, as we can see Punch is still an unusable attack (at least bruising has a use). Plus other ATs would get to benefit (maybe different AT mods would be needed). I would recommend decreasing the strength (maybe 15% res debuff for 8s), and have it not stack from same caster (but other casters can stack on top of yours). 

 

I don't see a need for a defense buff, though. It's something extra, I guess to sweaten a pot, but I prefer changes to be as simple as possible. I would still like to see a decreased animation time, because to me that would be a niche (so many attacks use a 0.84 scale already and so many attacks use a 1s cast time already). If Jab is going to be unique in its laughably low damage scale, at least give it a niche with an amazingly low animation time. It fixes its DPA while still making it a unicorn in the T1 world. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Bopper

[Vanden]

The thing is, Punch is also bad. As you point out, it's a T2 that compares unfavorably to most T1s. Jab gets all the spotlight because Tankers are forced to take it, but you really can't just fix Jab alone. Putting Punch in the T1 spot means you only need to rebalance the numbers for one power instead of two.

 

Really, I don't see a faster animation as helping much. Once you have a complete attack chain you still won't be using Jab.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

The thing is, Punch is also bad

Yeah, we're in full agreement there. The T1 and T2 from SS are pitiful. The T3 isn't that great either (it's the same damage as Hack, but slower). Now, I get the fact Rage is the reason all the attacks (other than KoB) are weaker compared to other powersets. But I'm not here to request a redesign of the entire powerset. Those requests have been made and those changes will come when they come.

 

But for right now, I'm simply requesting what is simple. Speed of cast time, or buff up damage. For one power. Just to make it average.

 

As of now, assuming 95% damage enhancement, a double rage jab would not do better than the top 5 on the list. So five sets have a T1 that does better DPA without any build up (just enhancements) than Jab (with the same enhancements plus double rage). 

 

If we only look at a single rage, plus the 95% enhancement, Jab is still middle of the pack, not even besting a max-synergy boxing. So all I'm trying to request is to simply reign in a power that is egregiously low performing and make it middle tier. It's a simple change that can be done now, as opposed to months/years down the road for a powerset revamp that may never come.

 

As of now, honestly, you're better off just taking Boxing, Kick, and Cross Punch and just skip all SS attacks until KoB. Boxing +2 you won't use at end game, but it'll be useful when exemplared. And Cross Punch will hit at 94% of what Haymaker can do, but CP will hit up to 5 tgts and comes with nice synergy buffs. You'll definitely use it at end game for both ST and AoE attack chains.

 

I clearly digress, as I have not slept and I'm supposed to be up in an hour. In the end, I like your idea to bring back bruising (not just for tankers!). But really, it should just be a basic resistance debuff, as bruising mechanics were too limiting. That alone would make jab useful. But I'm also good with simply improving the DPA, preferably faster casttime just because it would be fun. Sprinkling in a jab between each of your attacks, it would be beautiful.

 

[Vanden]

What do you mean Bruising mechanics are limiting? Bruising is just a resistance debuff with a name. In fact, if Jab was changed as I propose, it wouldn’t really be Bruising, just a 4-second res debuff.

[Haijinx]

Interesting the T1 of street justice animation is basically 2 good looking  jabs.

 

If they could somehow just do 1 ... 

 

 

[Major_Decoy]

Are these numbers factoring in rage, or are only only accurate from 1-28 and for people (like me) who skip rage?

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

What do you mean Bruising mechanics are limiting? Bruising is just a resistance debuff with a name. In fact, if Jab was changed as I propose, it wouldn’t really be Bruising, just a 4-second res debuff.

I mean the mechanic that only one application of bruising could be applied to an enemy. So when you had 2 tanks who weren't the same level, you'd get applications of bruising that would jump between different levels of the purple patch. 

 

So don't do that. Just do it like most other resistance debuffs where the debuff can't stack from same character, but they can stack from other characters.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

10 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Are these numbers factoring in rage, or are only only accurate from 1-28 and for people (like me) who skip rage?

The numbers in the table do not factor in Rage.

[Naraka]

I always thought of the melee sets as states with different rules and taxes and Super Strength's powers have to pay taxes for Rage and double-stack Rage kind of like Dark Melee having to pay a minor AoE tax for Soul Drain although they can bypass a lot of that tax by going and buying their AoE out of state.  Titan Weapons is like Alaska or Texas in size and it doesn't have to pay taxes on it's income (DPS).  I guess that makes SS like New Jersey?

[Bopper]

21 hours ago, Naraka said:

I always thought of the melee sets as states with different rules and taxes and Super Strength's powers have to pay taxes for Rage and double-stack Rage kind of like Dark Melee having to pay a minor AoE tax for Soul Drain although they can bypass a lot of that tax by going and buying their AoE out of state.  Titan Weapons is like Alaska or Texas in size and it doesn't have to pay taxes on it's income (DPS).  I guess that makes SS like New Jersey?

Haha, I think Wyoming. The size of Wyoming is represented by Footstomp, the only city worth while (Cheyenne) is represented by knock-out blow. Road Rage is prevelant, and nothing else is relevant (like Jab, Punch, Haymaker, Hurl, and Hand Clap). 

[ironjoe]

On 4/13/2020 at 1:44 PM, Bopper said:

So don't do that. Just do it like most other resistance debuffs where the debuff can't stack from same character, but they can stack from other characters.

That was my preferred way to fix tanks to begin with but I would be happy to see it brought back in this way for uniqueness in some sets.

[siolfir]

No issues with any of the proposed solutions - Jab is garbage and the only nice thing to be said about it is that you don't have to take it on Brutes - but a nitpick on the chart: Contaminated Strike is including the bonus (AoE splash) damage for hitting a contaminated target (scale 1.008) - it's actually scale 0.84 damage most of the time so should be tied with that entire range of t1 powers, split into different entries like you did with Titan Weapons and Boxing.

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, siolfir said:

No issues with any of the proposed solutions - Jab is garbage and the only nice thing to be said about it is that you don't have to take it on Brutes - but a nitpick on the chart: Contaminated Strike is including the bonus (AoE splash) damage for hitting a contaminated target (scale 1.008) - it's actually scale 0.84 damage most of the time so should be tied with that entire range of t1 powers, split into different entries like you did with Titan Weapons and Boxing.

Thanks, I always wondered why its scale looked so unique.

[skoryy]

On 4/13/2020 at 2:45 PM, Bopper said:

The numbers in the table do not factor in Rage.

This was the problem Captain Powerhouse ran into when they tried to re-balance Rage some months back.   You can't re-balance Super Strength without factoring in Rage.  And Rage is kinda hard to adjust.

[Vanden]

19 minutes ago, skoryy said:

This was the problem Captain Powerhouse ran into when they tried to re-balance Rage some months back.   You can't re-balance Super Strength without factoring in Rage.  And Rage is kinda hard to adjust.

That's the beauty of my suggestion. The damage of the powers doesn't change, and in fact taking advantage of the buffs Jab would get results in a big DPS hit, since you have to use it so frequently. Thus, no change to Rage is needed.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, skoryy said:

This was the problem Captain Powerhouse ran into when they tried to re-balance Rage some months back.   You can't re-balance Super Strength without factoring in Rage.  And Rage is kinda hard to adjust.

I would think the approach is to balance around 1 stack of rage. And if that is the case, perhaps a Jab with single stack rage and enhancements would lineup as balanced. Although other sets get build up and other damage bonuses that would leave Jab in the dust once again.

[skoryy]

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

I would think the approach is to balance around 1 stack of rage. And if that is the case, perhaps a Jab with single stack rage and enhancements would lineup as balanced. Although other sets get build up and other damage bonuses that would leave Jab in the dust once again.

Given its not that hard to finish a build here that can get you two stacks of rage, I'm unsure.  Rage is just a massive unbalancing factor when it comes to SS.

[Bopper]

27 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Given its not that hard to finish a build here that can get you two stacks of rage, I'm unsure.  Rage is just a massive unbalancing factor when it comes to SS.

It is easy, but builds can also achieve a 33-43% uptime with Build Up, and Build Up doesn't come with a crash (or double crash if double Rage is used). So I figure a single stack Rage puts things roughly on par with a non-BuildUp powerset, while the 2nd Rage puts things roughly with a high recharge BuildUp powerset.

[Vanden]

40 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Given its not that hard to finish a build here that can get you two stacks of rage, I'm unsure.  Rage is just a massive unbalancing factor when it comes to SS.

Could you clarify what you mean by this? If you mean double Rage all the time, that's not that easy. You need 300% recharge for that, which is a lot, and you generally sacrifice a lot of potential defense to get there. A more typical case is 10-20 seconds of double Rage; that's not difficult, but then you're getting similar uptime on your double Rage that other sets get on their Build Up.

[ABlueThingy]

Maybe sprinkle some -res throughout the crap SS powers and have it so when Rage is on the -res won't go off?

 

To kind of represent holding back your strength to help the team vs going full Superman v. Darkside.

 

Really though Rage needs tweaked

 

 

[Major_Decoy]

As a rageless super strength tanker, I might be being selfish here, but I do like the idea of super strength powers having alternate bonuses when rage isn't active.

It might also improve the first twenty-eight levels of playing.