Ouroboros: Expand patron arcs to all alignments

[Replacement]

I'm getting pretty tired of all my characters being double agents who went Redside for their patron arc "but actually I was a double agent and I arrested lots of bad guys!"

 

I don't really like having the Descended badge on all characters and the like.

 

Suggestion: Add patron arcs to ouroboros for all alignments.

 

Rationalization: Experiencing an alternate timeline to learn from an alternate version of yourself.

 

Short and sweet, and hopefully less cause for revolt than my uh... other thread.

[Apparition]

I don't see the point.  Go talk to Null the Gull, switch alignments, run the patron arc, come back to Pocket D, and talk with Null the Gull again.  Back home safe and sound within a few hours, tops. 

 

Going villain or rogue for a few hours is just the price of admission.  If you are not willing to do even that, then I don't know what to tell you.  The game already caters to blue side far too much. 

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

I don't see the point.  Go talk to Null the Gull, switch alignments, run the patron arc, come back to Pocket D, and talk with Null the Gull again.  Back home safe and sound within a few hours, tops. 

 

Going villain or rogue for a few hours is just the price of admission.  If you are not willing to do even that, then I don't know what to tell you.  The game already caters to blue side far too much. 

ibid.

[Nanolathe]

I don't think Patron Pools are powerful enough outside of theme to be worth the bother. So I wholeheartedly agree that letting everyone pick them at 35 is no big whoop.

 

They're really not deserving of their place as Villain Only Gated Content, especially when Null the Gull is the only thing stopping you from being a blue boy-scout in as long as it takes to use the VIP Pass.... and keeping your supposedly "villainous" powers. Keep the badges for running the arcs. Loose the gate keeping.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Nanolathe said:

I don't think Patron Pools are powerful enough outside of theme to be worth the bother. So I wholeheartedly agree that letting everyone pick them at 35 is no big whoop.

 

They're really not deserving of their place as Villain Only Gated Content. Keep the badges for running the arcs. Loose the gate keeping.

 

Everyone can already pick them at level 35.  Just talk to Null the Gull.  Done. 

 

If that is gatekeeping, then so be it. 

 

[Nanolathe]

Just now, Apparition said:

 

Everyone can already pick them at level 35.  Just talk to Null the Gull.  Done. 

 

If that is gatekeeping, then so be it. 

 

Why?

 

And it's an arc you have to run. It's not just Gull and Done.

 

Epic Pools aren't gated to anyone. Why are Patron Pools?

Edited April 17, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Nanolathe said:

Why?

 

And it's an arc you have to run. It's not just Gull and Done.

 

Epic Pools aren't gated to anyone. Why are Patron Pools?

 

For three reasons.   First, the patron power pools should have been limited to villains and rogues in the first place.  If you go hero or vigilante, you should lose them.  But it's far, far too late for that.

 

Secondly, as I said before, the game caters far too much to blue side as is already.  If it weren't for the patron power pools, the majority of the player base would never set foot in the Rogue Isles to begin with.  It's a small price to pay to expose them to life on the other side.

 

Thirdly, the patron arcs were and are villainous content.  They should remain that way.  Red side doesn't have nearly as much content as blue side to begin with.  To take some of that red side content away and open it up to all alignments is just rubbing salt in the wound.

[Psyonico]

16 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Thirdly, the patron arcs were and are villainous content.  They should remain that way.  Red side doesn't have nearly as much content as blue side to begin with.  To take some of that red side content away and open it up to all alignments is just rubbing salt in the wound.

 

this

[Nanolathe]

47 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

For three reasons.   First, the patron power pools should have been limited to villains and rogues in the first place.  If you go hero or vigilante, you should lose them.  But it's far, far too late for that.

 

Secondly, as I said before, the game caters far too much to blue side as is already.  If it weren't for the patron power pools, the majority of the player base would never set foot in the Rogue Isles to begin with.  It's a small price to pay to expose them to life on the other side.

 

Thirdly, the patron arcs were and are villainous content.  They should remain that way.  Red side doesn't have nearly as much content as blue side to begin with.  To take some of that red side content away and open it up to all alignments is just rubbing salt in the wound.

Firstly, I agree; that would be thematic. I will /sign that petition when it comes around (assuming that the pools themselves get better or that Epic Pools are likewise removed from non-Hero aligned characters)

 

Second, the majority of the player base doesn't set foot in the rogue isles anyway... and then only does so to pick thematically appropriate powers that they feel are right for their heroic blue boys. Them "breaking character" if they want these powers won't last longer than the transit time between the end of the mission and Null. Patron Pools aren't really that much of a draw to play red side content beyond that 1 that you are required forced into playing through. The arcs are easily soloable and aren't a ringing endorsement of red sides differences.

 

Thridly, any red side content is open to anyone with just a quick trip to Null and Oro. There's really nothing stopping people from running villainous content if they really want to seek it out. That's (imo) the real issue with red-side... even as someone who Alts waaaay more villains than heroes. Red side content is nearly indistinguishable from blue, save the text box. 

 

---

It's a sad, sad state of affairs and I would genuinely love red side to get some love... Real, unique, and rich, and engaging, and UNIQUE content... 

but holding patron pools hostage, while thematically on point (I will absolutely grant you that), it's mechanically toothless. 

---

 

Maybe if your first point was implemented I would be totally flipped around on the issue. As it stands now? "Null and done" as I think you put it. Why even have Null there in the first place if it's going to be so easy?

Edited April 17, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

I don't see the point.  Go talk to Null the Gull, switch alignments, run the patron arc, come back to Pocket D, and talk with Null the Gull again.  Back home safe and sound within a few hours, tops. 

 

Going villain or rogue for a few hours is just the price of admission.  If you are not willing to do even that, then I don't know what to tell you.  The game already caters to blue side far too much. 

I don't see how any of that addresses the OP.  You're right that Redside needs more love.  But that's really not in the scope of this thread.  It's not like this "price of admission" is livening up Redside for you.  It's just adding tourists.

 

This is a change for RP and concept characters who dislike having to sideswap for the powers they're after, and being stuck with this when they look in their badges:

 

This stuff about how they should have remained redside?  That ship sailed 10 years ago.  Silly reason to shut this down.

 

Meanwhile, I think I gave a pretty good in-world reason that I think a lot of us would enjoy exploring: the idea of using Ouroboros to glimpse timelines without them remaining "canon" to your character.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Replacement

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

I don't see the point.  Go talk to Null the Gull, switch alignments, run the patron arc, come back to Pocket D, and talk with Null the Gull again.  Back home safe and sound within a few hours, tops.

... then wait seven days to regain the alignment power you got when you went to Null and had him flip your alignment out and back early on.

 

It's not always as simple as people describe.

[Apparition]

49 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

... then wait seven days to regain the alignment power you got when you went to Null and had him flip your alignment out and back early on.

 

It's not always as simple as people describe.

 

The only worthwhile alignment power is Villain, so I don't see that as an issue. 

[Zepp]

There are three possible positions I can see.

Keep things as they are.

Eliminate the need to run the mish and have them basically the same as other Epic pools.

 

Eliminate the need to run the mish, but lock the summons unless the toon runs the mish.

I would be open to any of these solutions.

[Corruption]

I'm sorry, you're being stuck with what exactly? A badge? It seems some RP'ers have a lack of imagination. 

[Tad Cooper]

Back in the 2012 Lore AMA they talked about a face turn for Scirocco. I always figured that'd get implemented at some point down the line, then he would be the contact for a blue side Patron Arc.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Corruption said:

I'm sorry, you're being stuck with what exactly? A badge? It seems some RP'ers have a lack of imagination. 

I have 12 characters who either were brainwashed or were double agents.  Sometimes I just want a character who was purely good and never faltered.  Like, I couldn't stomach being a double agent in real life.  It's not hard for me to imagine characters that are not, either.  

 

Now, a better solution would be removing the patron flavor from these additional pools and adding a different reward to the patron arcs.  But that's more work.

 

Even better would be simply adding more Epic pools, but that's an unrealistic amount of extra work.

 

Either way, I wanted to propose this as a simple way to fix an annoyance.  Not the end of the world if people are against it.  This is obviously super subjective.

[Lines]

I'm in the corner of new hero-side patron arcs of the same 6-7 mission length that foil the plots of each of the patrons, learning their secrets in doing so and giving access to the patron powers.

 

It might take longer to see realised but it would be a bit more elegant, I think, than opening redside arcs to blue.

 

Edit: I understand the badge predicament, and I'm not even an RPer. I like to keep my heroes and villains on the sides they belong.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Lines

[MTeague]

I'm apparently in the minority here...  About 1/2 my characters are redside all the way, but only about 25% of my characters take patron arcs.  NONE of the blusiders, and only about half of my redsiders.

 

The patron arcs just... very rarely... fit my characters theme. 

And I don't care what's most effective or not.  If it doesn't make sense to me for my character to have a certain power, they don't get that power.

Ancillary pools are often easier to fit in.  Not always.  But often there's one that meshes with a certain element or aspect of my primary / secondary, or an aspect of my character's backstory.

 

Plus, I have pride issues. I don't need a patron to hand me power. I'm better than them anyway, whether or not I'm redside or blueside.

[Apparition]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

I'm apparently in the minority here...  About 1/2 my characters are redside all the way, but only about 25% of my characters take patron arcs.  NONE of the blusiders, and only about half of my redsiders.

 

The patron arcs just... very rarely... fit my characters theme. 

And I don't care what's most effective or not.  If it doesn't make sense to me for my character to have a certain power, they don't get that power.

Ancillary pools are often easier to fit in.  Not always.  But often there's one that meshes with a certain element or aspect of my primary / secondary, or an aspect of my character's backstory.

 

Plus, I have pride issues. I don't need a patron to hand me power. I'm better than them anyway, whether or not I'm redside or blueside.

 

Captain Mako's patron story arc has you hunt down and kill Ace McKnight.  To my characters, after that crap he pulled on Willy Wheeler and my character, having us secretly help Longbow... well, if taking on Captain Mako as my character's patron is the price to pay for some payback, so be it. :P

[Razor Cure]

Counter Proposal..add in Story arcs to unlock ALL blueside epic powers.

If you want the patrons to work on good alignments, let's see some balance in the ways all epic/patron pools are unlocked.

[Lazarillo]

8 hours ago, Replacement said:

This is a change for RP and concept characters who dislike having to sideswap for the powers they're after, and being stuck with this when they look in their badges:

Hey, man, you're the one selling your soul for power.  Own it.

[Doc_Scorpion]

10 hours ago, Replacement said:

Sometimes I just want a character who was purely good and never faltered. 

Then... be good and don't falter.  Don't blame others for the consequences of your own choices.

[Blastit]

It'd be better to just make ancillary power pools of the missing themes. If the HC team can make an electric support set then they are certainly able to throw together some APPs. The biggest hurdle is appropriate animations.

 

 

I'm pretty sure we could make electric apps for everyone at this point since we have melee, control, support, blast and armour to pull from. Same goes for ice and fire. Radiation has melee, blast, support and armour so there might be some ATs that would have to settle for some less conventional choices but not too badly. Earth has control, melee and armour plus an assault set which admittedly does have a unique ranged attack. Energy has some disparate sets to pull from so it might be a little less coherent but if blasters can settle for a "force" APP so can most others.

 

So the big themes are decently well covered. The various weaponry and martial arts are maybe a little trickier but really only in deciding what you're even going to theme the pool around. More esoteric stuff like sonic and bio could be doable although for fewer ATs.

[Replacement]

11 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Then... be good and don't falter.  Don't blame others for the consequences of your own choices.

This is a really good argument against letting anyone obtain badges via Flashback missions at all.

 

Either way, I get it.  I agree that it's not the best solution.  It seemed to me like a simple way to fix an issue I (personally, subjective) have, but the general consensus of this thread is that it's better to take more time and do it right (like what @Blastit mentioned about adding the missing themes) and I can get behind that.

 

Cheers.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Replacement

[Chris24601]

My issue is that my theme pretty much required an electricity based epic/ancillary pool, but charge or electricity mastery just isn't available to a scrapper (or tanker or brute or stalker for that matter). You've basically got fire, dark, weapons and laser-eyes; while lightning, a rather significant elemental theme, can only be gained via the villain arcs (adding cold mastery for the melee ATs would also be appreciated).

 

I solved the problem in my head by declaring that my character also has an evil Praetorian version who went to the Rogue Isles at level 20, and that the unlock missions were done by said evil twin who didn't actually need the arc to unlock their innate ranged lightning powers, but did those things because they were a villain (rogue technically).

 

Maces and Spirit Sharks and Ghost Widow's particular brand of necromancy? sure, make those patron dependent. But LIGHTNING? That's just such a generic power concept that gating it behind a villainous dip is ridiculous. Leave off the tier-5 Summon, re-color the default to blue and make Charge Mastery with only four picks a thing for the melee ATs.

 

And yes, add a cold mastery option too while you're at it.