Weekly Discussion 48: Dark Armor!

[Parabola]

25 minutes ago, Cutter said:

But what does it meeeeaaaan?

Don't play dark armor on just SO's?

Edited April 28, 2020 by parabola

[Nanolathe]

31 minutes ago, parabola said:

Don't play dark armor on just SO's?

He used lvl 50 IOs 😉

[Greycat]

So, no to "run them both and it also sprouts PBAOE Teneebrous Tentacles?" 🙂

[Nanolathe]

8 minutes ago, Greycat said:

So, no to "run them both and it also sprouts PBAOE Teneebrous Tentacles?" 🙂

Depends on if we're talking about scenic cottage houses in the alps or not. It's a fun thought, but I'm not sure that it fixes the underlying problems the set has. It's not unprecedented for a PBAoE to immobilise though. I think Mud Pots from Stone Armour has that effect?

[Cutter]

18 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

He used lvl 50 IOs 😉

And frankly, I wouldn't want to tank with the 50 IO build either 🙂

[Brutal Justice]

2 hours ago, Cutter said:

Snipped for space

Aaaand, GO!

Those blanket numbers look great but they don’t quite tell the whole story.  Maybe @Galaxy Brain can work some mitigation magic like he did with regen.  

 

Dark could swap acrobatics for hover to save end.  Hover and oppressive gloom together would probably still cost less than acrobatics.

 

Electric has a bit more resists but the 8% more defense dark has probably makes up for it.  Easily makes up for it with hover and oppressive gloom.  Also, and it’s a big also, energize at 55 seconds is much less helpful for sustain than dark regen at 16s.  Energize is a much smaller heal that is available about every 3-4 spawns.  Dark regen is available every spawn.  How does electric mitigate that damage for the two spawns it’s heal isn’t available for?   Electric is more offensive but it’s also less durable in normal play.  

 

A couple issues with ice.  We all know anything short of softcap is a pretty big deal for durability.  Ice also has pretty low DDR.  Off the top of my head, in the 40% range. It also has next to no resists.  I can’t tell if you have energy absorption active in that build or not.  If those romans land a hit on you before you get EA off they are going to chunk you down pretty quickly.  I want to say EA as an end cost of around 20 so you have to hit at least two guys to actually gain any end.  I mentioned I need about 4 guys around me at all times to keep my end from flatlining.

 

 Hoarfrost offers great mitigation as a one time click.  After that click, you’re out of options.  Dark has the ability to enter every group at full health.  The absorb sustains for blasters may offer more sustain than the regen powers but I prefer the regen powers because it makes a big difference being able to enter each fight at full health.  

 

Dark and ice are almost polar opposites that actually function somewhat similar.  Both have their hardest time against fewer targets.  Both have a form of CC to help durability.  One has a tier 9 that takes you out of the fight.  The other has a tier 9 that you can only use once you’ve been taken out of the fight.  One has a +end power but no end drain resistance so is easily drained below the threshold of being able to use such power.  The other has great end drain resistance but has a readily available end hungry click that can take you below the threshold of being able to use it.  

 

In summary.  Availability is the best ability.  Being able to enter every engagement at full health can not be discounted, it is a huge benefit.  

 

Dark is already more durable than electric and is probably right on par with ice.  Ice and electric can take fireball and add more damage but they can’t easily shore up their durability downfalls.  Dark can take conserve power and physical perfection to easily shore up its end issues.  It’s level of durability and the ease of covering that end issue is what sends it so much higher than most sets once you add set bonuses.  It gets so strong because it’s a jack of all trades, master of none, on SOs.  End management often happens as an afterthought with set bonuses.  Recovery is in that 2 slot range you get on the way to the bonus you really want.  

Edited April 28, 2020 by Brutal Justice
EA has an end cost of only 13 so everything I said about it should be adjusted accordingly

[Nanolathe]

1 hour ago, Cutter said:

And frankly, I wouldn't want to tank with the 50 IO build either 🙂

No argument against that scenario here. But if I might be permitted to wax philosophic for a moment; There was a reason you chose basic IOs (and other choose SOs) for set-to-set comparisons. 

 

Is saying that you "wouldn't want to tank with that basic IO build" indicative of a real problem with the set, especially when it performs admirably with IO set bonuses, as others have attested to?

 

I argue yes, there is a problem with the powerset... but not really from a level of power perspective. I only argue that it doesn't follow through on the set's thematic and mechanical goals. The game is a broken mess when it comes to the power level of any individual, IMO, and putting that particular genie back in the bottle is almost certainly a fools errand... if it were to even be attempted in the first place.

 

What exactly do we want Dark armour to do? Arguably the only thing that gives a power set any flavour these days is its weaknesses and its mechanics, as power customisation allows you to "proxy" most themes while playing a set that you enjoy the mechanics of, and know how to mitigate the weaknesses of (and/or exploit the strengths, whichever you prefer)

 

A set should have an identity all its own. That's my argument. A mechanical difference that warrants its existence. Something independent of IO set bonuses and procs.

 

The set should have something that makes you want to run with it, even at the SO / basic IO level.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Nanolathe

[ArchVileTerror]

Here's a mechanic that doesn't get played with very often:  Maximum Endurance Buff

So, say one of the PBAoE Toggles (I'd even venture to say Death Shroud) granted +2.75 Max Endurance for the first target, with an additional +0.25 per target, up to 10 total, for +5 Max Endurance.  Half the value would be Enhanceable, for a grand total of approximately +7.475 under standard maximum Enhancing, and+8.18 under Alpha Incarnate.  That, in turn, provides additional Recovery in the same way that improved Max HP improves Regeneration.

 

Would that be too powerful?

Too weak?

 

It encourages the player to take the extra risk of Aggro'ing enemies to improve their Endurance situation, while playing in to the Set's theme of taking from enemies to give to yourself.

It's still a form of resource management, for those players who enjoy that element of the gameplay.  It's not simply "here's more Endurance."  It's "here's something inherent to the Set which allows you to make a decision on risk versus reward."

 

 

 

Also, I didn't see anyone fussing about my can of worms statement, so I'll keep this short (unless anyone wants me to go on a rant):

We all seem to say it often enough, but it's still worth reminding ourselves that different people play this game for different reasons.  Whether we share their reasons or not, or whether we're even capable of understanding their reasons at all, we would probably do well to at least internalize the knowledge that this game will never be catered to just one of us alone.  We should be prepared to make compromises and concessions to help more players feel welcome.  That's the mission of Homecoming, after all.  

[Cutter]

@Mr.Sinister I grabbed Ice as a comparison set because it was mentioned as another comparable in end use. And no, those numbers don't reflect EA active - just checked and it would take 2 hits to go over softcap on S/L/E/N. Elec was picked simply as another resist-based set for a better comparison of values. I wanted to stay away from the newest sets as they are generally considered as being skewed upwards. Also, you're correct, I didn't go into detail on the heals, because I'd previously acknowledged that DR is essentially the Best Heal In The Game (tm), and didn't want to inject editorial commentary into the flat number bit. To add that now: if the set lives and dies on one power, is the set good? (hyperbole sure, but by how much?)

 

Re: Energy Absorption - according to Mid's, it costs 13 end to use, and with no enhancement returns 15 per hit. So yes 2 enemies to get any kind of significant return (unless you slot for endmod).

 

Re: Conserve Power and Physical Perfection - those are in all 3 builds, CP slotted 3 rech, PP slotted 2 end 1 heal. Ice and Elec can get away with taking epic attacks instead if they want because those primaries have tools to deal; for Dark I'd argue there's a much higher opportunity cost.

 

@Nanolathe I chose basic IOs because, rightly or wrongly, that's what I personally feel represents the baseline that today's game is built on. Whether that's accurate or not, desirable or not, whatever or not, I'm not the one to say. But that's where it came from. It also eliminates biases in set bonus chasing that shore up weaknesses. I wanted to present builds that don't do anything to plug the holes, so we can see how big those holes are.

 

Both my original post and the recent one you refer to come around to the same conclusion you present, albeit mine was not stated the most clearly: Dark Armour fails as a set in that it does not deliver what it says it delivers. Dark Regeneration is, practically speaking, the only power that actually "drains your foes to strengthen you". Meanwhile, the powers that really help feed the set's thematic identity, and are the most unique - Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom - are in today's game entirely skippable, which is sad because they are what make DA different from the rest. Really I'm just asking that they be given a tweak to put them back into consideration, and let DA do what it says it does.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Cutter
More weird formatting tricks!

[Troo]

4 hours ago, Cutter said:

So that's a lot of words and pictures and stuff hidden in spoiler tags. But what does it meeeeaaaan? Smarter people than me would prolly be able to tell you a lot. To me? It means that Dark Armour, at the cost of ignoring its two really unique powers, burns the same end as Ice and more than Elec, for overall lesser protection, no way to mitigate the drain, and no style points.

 

Did you mention the -tohit and I missed it?

[SwitchFade]

An io at lvl 30 is comparable to an SO at similar level. Heck, even most plain io's at lvl 25-40 are also similar in value, due to ED and diminishing returns.

 

If we're talking DA as a set with identity, flavor, unique mechanics or damage mitigation, the set doesn't do any one of these well when compared to any other set, as stated by others.

 

Classic sets such as stone, invuln, fire, ice all offer better mitigation, lower cost for said mitigation and less trade offs.

 

Now, if DA is, and should be, meant to achieve mitigation NOT by way of resist/defense, but through unique mechanics, it should be excellent at THOSE mechanics.

 

As it stands now, to achieve COMPARABLE capabilities to other sets, the investment is greater, the trade offs more painful and the unique mechanics are lackluster.

 

There's a few paths here, should the choice be to move from baseline (i.e. now).

 

1. Buff damage resist/defense mitigation values 

2. Reduce end consumption to make it less costly to run built in capabilities

3. Buff the unique mechanics to be MEANINGFUL

4. A combination of 1-3

 

Regardless of the approach, whether it be a straight resist buff or a controller ish buff, the set is badly in need of revision. As it stands now it is horribly expensive for little return.

 

If DA in its current form were a project I had to sponsor or approve at work, the Net Preset Value of this investment opportunity is NEGATIVE and not approved. I would require a significant improvement in NPV and RoI to authorize it.

Edited April 29, 2020 by SwitchFade

[ArchVileTerror]

Yeah; to take a break from circling the Endurance issue to extreme exclusion of other points . . . I'll throw another one of my hats in to the ring of:  Emphasize the unique mitigation tools, since they're unique.  ie:  Make the Fear and Stun more effective by improving the rate at which they tick, and allow for low percentile odds of +1 and/or +2 Mag in addition to the blanket Mag 2 Control.  Have the -chance- for Lt.s and Bosses to also get Stunned or Feared from time to time, basically.  Maybe put -something- in to those Powers to also make them meaningful against things strong than Bosses.

[Solarverse]

Endurance Reduction and.....

 

 

KNOCK BACK PROTECTION!!!

[SwitchFade]

23 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Endurance Reduction and.....

 

 

KNOCK BACK PROTECTION!!!

That was a mag 7 KB post!

[Cutter]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

Did you mention the -tohit and I missed it?

I didn't directly mention it the second time, but as the -tohit is part of Cloak of Fear, and the builds I was comparing skipped that power... 😉

 

Now, in my first diatribe, I suggested adding some -tohit into Death Shroud as well as retaining it in CoF (along with a general buff to CoF). That would be a thing.

[Troo]

Final thoughts.

 

Fear and Stun increase with the inclusion of the other set on our characters.

 

Maybe I am thinking of it all wrong:

Oppressive Gloom for 0.08 end/sec effectively adds +2 magnitude Disorient to all of our other powers. Some of which don't have % checks for Disorient. (Hand Clap, Stun, Thunder Strike, etc.)

Stunning a boss is 4 mag. Elite bosses are 6. 

We can also see why the took away the de-toggling for stuns.

 

Fear is 3 mag for bosses.. and Cloak of Fear effectively provides more defense than Maneuvers in the form of -acc.

 

It's the pairing that we choose, that can benefit from one aspect or another of Dark Armour's utility. Mental note, Stuns look wicked cheap, almost free.

 

Fun fact - 2 simultaneous Soul Transfers should be able to overcome the purple patch and stun everything within 25' possibly for over 20 secs.

[Cutter]

58 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

Yeah; to take a break from circling the Endurance issue to extreme exclusion of other points . . . I'll throw another one of my hats in to the ring of:  Emphasize the unique mitigation tools, since they're unique.  ie:  Make the Fear and Stun more effective by improving the rate at which they tick, and allow for low percentile odds of +1 and/or +2 Mag in addition to the blanket Mag 2 Control.  Have the -chance- for Lt.s and Bosses to also get Stunned or Feared from time to time, basically.  Maybe put -something- in to those Powers to also make them meaningful against things strong than Bosses.

You mean, like making Cloak a terror-inflicting variant of Entangling Aura? 🙂  And adding a +mag chance to OG? 🙂

 

(Not actively being facetious here either - any voices asking for the cool unique parts of the set to be buffed to usefulness are gladly supported!)

[Cutter]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

<snip>

There's a few paths here, should the choice be to move from baseline (i.e. now).

 

1. Buff damage resist/defense mitigation values 

2. Reduce end consumption to make it less costly to run built in capabilities

3. Buff the unique mechanics to be MEANINGFUL

4. A combination of 1-3

<snip>

Option 3 has been my preference. It does good things to the set without, as some detractors have rightfully pointed out as a concern, pushing DA to homogenization with the other armour sets.

[GM Miss]

People ping me with screenshots of their fluff balls! 😄

 

Great discussion so far this week everyone! 

[Naraka]

12 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Thanks for the blatant, brash disrespect. I would recommend against it in the future.

Pot. Kettle. Some color or some such.

 

Like I said before, I gave you my answer but you seem so persistent on eeking out a specific answer for your narrative, you'd have been better to just accept the answer or at the very least clarified what type of response you wanted rather than reject an honest response and merely repeat the question.

 

12 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

None of that is an objection in the SECOND PARAGRAPH you keep lamenting. It's called an ALTERNATIVE proposal. You literally said you want a reason to run them all vs cheaper.

I suppose if you didn't read it and then move the goalpost of your question, then yeah, the response is just an alternative.  Underlying the "alternative" is angled a response to keep balance.  As I say with a lot of replies regarding changes, my opinion is always to steer away from powercreep.  If the effects of some of the powers are underperforming, fix them.  Making them cheaper than they already are isn't fixing them (mainly talking about Cloak of Fear).  Improving the accuracy and some secondary effect is fixing it but fixing it AND making it cheaper is making it unbalanced.

 

12 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Fine, it's ok, TO YOU. Super, I respect that.

Are you sure about that?  You literally badgered me because you didn't like my answer or felt the need to defend your pride with a barrage of replies.  If you want to post like that, I'm ready to fire back but don't lie to me, throwing out hollow canned responses like "I respect that."

Edited April 29, 2020 by Naraka

[Naraka]

12 hours ago, QuiJon said:

Most sets do have some type of weakness, but it normally comes into play with being like resistance vs defense based, or elemental like being weak to energy damage or whatever. There is no viable reason hy a melee toon should not be provided knockback protection within their power choices. And if this was the case why is this "leaving something off status protection" only limited it seems to knockback and only on a few sets. I mean there is knockback, stuns, holds, confuse, fear, and Immbl, why do none of those other sets that get knockback protection then have a glowing hole for being stunned, or immobilized that has to be overcome? I mean if you want to say its a trade off and all sets have weaknesses then fine, lets see weaknesses in the status protections of other sets.  Cause they don't exist. 

There are sets that have mez holes in one fashion or another.  Electric Armor's KB protection requires you be on the ground, a plethora of armor sets don't get protection to Confuse or Repel, Fear is also a hole left in some sets...incidentally, some sets that have a hole to KB have some sort of "exotic" protection like Dark Armor having protection to Fear and Ninjutsu having protection to Fear and Confuse.  Not saying that what the sets get justifies their lack of KB protection but I believe the underlying goal was to have trade offs and holes in the set are meant to be trade offs and and having a bigger hole is supposed to get some sort of compensation.  I think the only odd one out would be Fiery Aura which gets the KB, Confuse hole with Immobilize protection being in a click...but it gets damage.

 

So my next shift in logic is, how are the "compensations" a set gets weighted vs the holes? Is damage that high?  Is Endurance Management powers a different kind of compensation or are they kind of just standard utility for armor sets?  And would the lack of Endurance Management powers in a set be considered a "hole" in that circumstance?

[Naraka]

12 hours ago, Cutter said:

Now we're seeing something. End drain is notably lower (as would be expected from 8 toggles vs the 10 in the DA build). BUT:

• The Dark build continues to ignore two of the (arguably) more flavourful powers in its primary, while Elec takes all its toggles.
• Despite that, Elec still has two fewer toggles, AND an end recovery power in Power Sink which, as slotted in this build (3 rech, 2 endmod) is up in a little over 27 seconds, and returns a touch over 45% end per enemy hit, AND an endurance reduction+heal power in Energize which, as slotted in this build (3 rech, 1 heal) is up in just under 55 seconds, lasts for 30 seconds, and provides almost 60% endurance reduction to all powers, plus other goodies spoken to below. (Notably, NOT clicked on for the screenie above.)

Looking at the defensive side of things:

• Dark is running with respectably middling defense (but no DDR), and mediocre trending down to low-end resists.
• Dark's heal, Dark Regeneration, (slotted 1 acc, 2 end, 2 rech, 1 heal) is up in a bit over 16 seconds, heals almost 43% per target hit, and clocks in at over 18 end per use.
• Elec has lower defense. but outside of Psi and Negative, better (but still arguably mediocre) resists. Importantly, however, it overcaps resists to the most common "exotic" damage type, Energy.
• Elec gets a heal out of its endurance redux power, Energize, which per the above slotting is still coming back in about 55 seconds, and provides a 35% heal and an extra 140% regen, at a cost of a bit over 10 endurance.

 

 

So that's a lot of words and pictures and stuff hidden in spoiler tags. But what does it meeeeaaaan? Smarter people than me would prolly be able to tell you a lot. To me? It means that Dark Armour, at the cost of ignoring its two really unique powers, burns the same end as Ice and more than Elec, for overall lesser protection, no way to mitigate the drain, and no style points.

 

Aaaand, GO!

Are tier 9s being presented in the overall set?  I feel, comparatively, Elec's tier 9 is quite harsh but does get added damage/mez but you have to stand in the middle during the crash to get it.  You could almost ignore that part if you're aiming to be careful with it as it's an HP and END drain.  It does have ways of mitigating its crash though if you have a blue pill and Power Sink/Energize recharged but it's still dangerous.

 

Dark Armor is more a set built without needing the tier 9 but if taken, is a handy back-up to add even more ontop of the set.  It's a heal/END replenisher, mez and invuln for a period but you have to go down to use it.  If used intentionally, it can be an effective tool especially if teamed.  But it's pretty quirky.  Overall, the set is made to function at full without the tier 9 but due to its quirks, can add more overall.

 

So one has a crash that can kill but can be mitigated and the other has an anti-crash.

 

 

[Metatheory]

Quick contribution here from a long time DA player. It is far and away my most played powerset both here and in the original game, and the only set where I have multiple 50's. The only one I don't have is a stalker (even I need a break from DA occasionally!).

 

I would be very careful about buffing it too much because in play it is immensely strong.

 

That is not to say that it doesn't present some fairly unusual challenges to get it purring, but to me those challenges are the reason why it is interesting to play. Historically it has been feared because of its high endurance cost, which seems to primarily come from Dark Regen and Cloak of Fear I believe. But these things can be easily mitigated:

• I can take a melee set with an endurance recovery tool, or
• I can slot end redux SOs, or
• I can use blue inspirations, or
• I can use Energy Mastery epic (heck, back in the day we used to take Focused Acc to help Cloak of Fear 😄 )
• I can benefit from teammates powers which improve recovery or top up endurance, or
• I can use super-cheap base buffs, or
• I can be careful which attacks I'm triggering, or
• I can make use of incarnate abilities, or
• I can occasionally run out of endurance... and really, so what? It usually doesn't kill me.

It doesn't have -KB, but there is acrobatics, or there is hover (not total mitigation because of the flip but it is also pretty useful vs caltrops and loads of other ways), or I can just buy the -KB IO or get one with merits. SR does not have any terrorize mitigation and so far as I know that is much harder to fix (although rare).

 

As to the stun and fear auras... I agree that out of the box they aren't super powerful, but again they shine when you combine them with other powers, for example Oppressive Gloom and Fault from Stone Melee is very nice, or combined with some of the early attacks in Mace you have complete control over LT's and even Bosses. Cloak is a bit trickier, but it has fantastic synergy with Dark Melee (again, high difficulty mob lockdown), with Assassin Strike and the Presence pool is there and actually can be used! For me these auras are the foundations and you build your strategy on top of them to create unusual and satisfying in-play effects. You don't have to take them - and it seems that many don't - but then you are missing out on some quite good potential upside. That said, I would be curious about Cloak offering a +To Hit effect (mentioned on p1).

 

Edit: I never mentioned Soul Transfer, which thematically is DA's version of Howling Twilight. This one does seem out of step with the game meta - it seems like originally some of the Armour sets were expected to die occasionally and that in a sense that could even be a 'good thing' because then you could trigger your uber-stun/rez (or nuke/rez in Fire etc) and create an advantage to yourself and the team. But that really does feel behind the times now, and besides, you can get a better self-rez just by paying off a bit of debt and visiting P2W.

 

Finally, I can see that having stealth on a tank can seem a little odd, but I have never noticed in actual play that my tank cannot acquire or maintain aggro because of it. Quite the opposite in fact, but the stealth does offer interesting possibilities that again can be used as a foundation to build strategies which provide good variation and interest in the game experience.

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Metatheory
wanted to comment on Soul Transfer

[Lines]

I have an unfinished DA stalker. My feeling is I prefer having a character with flaws that I need to solve myself rather than having the devs solve those problems for me.

[SwitchFade]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Pot. Kettle. Some color or some such.

 

Like I said before, I gave you my answer but you seem so persistent on eeking out a specific answer for your narrative, you'd have been better to just accept the answer or at the very least clarified what type of response you wanted rather than reject an honest response and merely repeat the question.

 

I suppose if you didn't read it and then move the goalpost of your question, then yeah, the response is just an alternative.  Underlying the "alternative" is angled a response to keep balance.  As I say with a lot of replies regarding changes, my opinion is always to steer away from powercreep.  If the effects of some of the powers are underperforming, fix them.  Making them cheaper than they already are isn't fixing them (mainly talking about Cloak of Fear).  Improving the accuracy and some secondary effect is fixing it but fixing it AND making it cheaper is making it unbalanced.

 

Are you sure about that?  You literally badgered me because you didn't like my answer or felt the need to defend your pride with a barrage of replies.  If you want to post like that, I'm ready to fire back but don't lie to me, throwing out hollow canned responses like "I respect that."

Sorry, you're incorrect. Colorful colloquialisms do little to aid your cause.

 

And, there's a vast chasm between my previous responses that you are incorrect, showing you your factual errors and your responses that were egregiously brazen, such as instructions to "read the damned" so on.

 

Regardless of what you may think, you have not given any valid objection to an END redux, save "because it's fine," which I already mentioned I respect. Further, your SINGLE objection is valid and should be considered.

 

Unfortunately, you've chose to hold fast to the fallacy of logic you have espoused thus far.

 

Clearly, facts will not dissuade you of your current course, regardless of the precariously awkward light your narrative has cast you in.

 

Emotional digression does little but reveal the fault in one's claim, be it erroneous data or invalid warrant. In this case, I'm afraid you have embraced both, reverting to straw men arguments to divert from evidence.

 

I do respect your single valid objection and hope it is included in the weighting of decision making data; however, your consistent insistence on holding fast to fallacies of logic warrant caution when giving weight to your opinions in the future.

Edited April 29, 2020 by SwitchFade