Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[Zepp]

No to forcing most Fenders, Trollers, Corruptors, Crabberminds, some Doms and a small handful of DpSers to invest another power slot to unlock Hasten.
No to reducing Hasten below 70%, which would likely be necessary if it were made inherent, a toggle, or a passive.

Hasten is part of a complex system and is mainly popular because of perceived efficacy rather than actual efficacy. I have written posts on adjusting all pool powers to have a more open format that is unified across all pool powers. Reworking all Pool Powers may be necessary after they release all five Origin Pools. That being said, Hasten is a power that does not need to be reworked. The amount of work that would have to be done on most powersets is just so immense that it is nigh impossible to think of a reasonable manner in which to address Hasten without disproportionately impacting most Fenders, Trollers, Corruptors, Crabberminds, some Doms and a small handful of DpSers.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

Your entitled to this opinion, but it's not fact. There are many many other ways to survive. 

But, none of them that work as well as to just build to survive.

 

why go around your elbow to get to your thumb?

 

look up the definition of static and dynamic.  Static means you dont have to do anything.  its the more stable way.  that isnt opinion, that is fact.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Infinitum

[AkuTenshiiZero]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

No to forcing most Fenders, Trollers, Corruptors, Crabberminds, some Doms and a small handful of DpSers to invest another power slot to unlock Hasten.
No to reducing Hasten below 70%, which would likely be necessary if it were made inherent, a toggle, or a passive.

You are not required to use Hasten.  You are picking it because it's free.  I'm gonna be controversial in saying this, but anyone who seriously believes that Hasten is required is frankly bad at this game.  I have played every single class in this game multiple times since the old days and I have never, I repeat, NEVER found Hasten to be required.  It's icing at best, a huge overkill.

 

There is no need to minmax in this game.  I find it laughable and a little sad when people minmax in a game this incredibly easy.  Throw together a team of 8 numbskulls with half-slotted sets and a moderately decent class distribution and you will destroy the entire damn game.

 

They could remove Hasten from the game entirely and it would not make the game any more difficult.  It's a free crutch that you need kicked out from under you so you can learn to walk on your own.

[Zepp]

1 hour ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

You are not required to use Hasten.  You are picking it because it's free.  I'm gonna be controversial in saying this, but anyone who seriously believes that Hasten is required is frankly bad at this game.  I have played every single class in this game multiple times since the old days and I have never, I repeat, NEVER found Hasten to be required.  It's icing at best, a huge overkill.

 

There is no need to minmax in this game.  I find it laughable and a little sad when people minmax in a game this incredibly easy.  Throw together a team of 8 numbskulls with half-slotted sets and a moderately decent class distribution and you will destroy the entire damn game.

 

They could remove Hasten from the game entirely and it would not make the game any more difficult.  It's a free crutch that you need kicked out from under you so you can learn to walk on your own.

Illusion Control does not have much "control" in it, but is an effective control set because perma-PA allows you to control aggro. Perma-PA requires hasten.
Similarly, Crabberminds require hasten for two of their three key summon powers.
Ironically, Chrono Shift requires Hasten to prevent Time Manipulation builds from feeling, and maintain reliable functionality.

 

There are dozens of other keystone powers out there that require Hasten for perma. Sure you can run these sets without Hasten if you are either teaming - eliminating a huge chunk of gameplay for some players - , really good at timing, or don't mind faceplanting all the time because without having those keystone powers permaed they are so immensely vulnerable that they have to play on lowered difficulties.

If you want to ignore the solo aspect of the game, fine, you don't need Hasten if you are teaming. But if you want to have a real discussion about a game that a significant number of players spend a significant amount of time playing solo, then your point is extremely invalid.

Also, since you obviously haven't read a significant portion of this thread, I will re-iterate. I only have Hasten on 4 out of 23 of my builds. I don't have it on my perma-LF PB or my perma-Dom Dom, but there are four builds that require Hasten to function sufficiently well to have fun while solo.

[Bionic_Flea]

9 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Which is any combination of soft capped defense, capped resistance, high regen.

What do you think buffs do?  Why, yes Johnny, they DO give out defense, resistance, regen and other goodies.  Some are teammate only, but many are team-wide. (P.S. just like maneuvers).  But even if they are teammate only, as a defender you want your meatshield and DPS upright and swinging.

 

And debuffs might as well be buffs.  If you are reducing your enemies' accuracy/tohit and damage you might as well consider that additional defense and resistance.

[Herotu]

I think the OP has a very good point. I also believe there are ways around the need for Hasten, BUT they are ways around. It'd be nice to see every skill in the game rebalanced regarding cooldowns, but even if you did that, the aforementioned "ways around the need for Hasten" (I'm talking about IO set bonus "reduce cooldown of all your powers") would become more powerful than ever - so THOSE would need to be retuned, too. It is a mammoth task, but not one without a reasonable cause. Having said that, who really gives a shit, right?

[KelvinKole]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

But, none of them that work as well as to just build to survive.

 

why go around your elbow to get to your thumb?

 

look up the definition of static and dynamic.  Static means you dont have to do anything.  its the more stable way.  that isnt opinion, that is fact.

Ugh, I tried not to...

 

Static means not moving. Defense, resistance, and regen are all moving numbers. They move up via buffs and down via debuffs. 

 

What you're trying to describe is passive versus active. Those stats are passive defenses, they're always on IF applied via a toggle or passive ability. Things like healing, max hp buffs, absorbs, and even buffs and debuffs that affect those stats are active defenses. 

 

Signed, 

A RL Engineer. 

[Infinitum]

42 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

Ugh, I tried not to...

 

Static means not moving. Defense, resistance, and regen are all moving numbers. They move up via buffs and down via debuffs. 

 

What you're trying to describe is passive versus active. Those stats are passive defenses, they're always on IF applied via a toggle or passive ability. Things like healing, max hp buffs, absorbs, and even buffs and debuffs that affect those stats are active defenses. 

 

Signed, 

A RL Engineer. 

 

If you want me to look up the definitions for quiescence and equilibrium, I can do that too.

 

Signed

 

CoH homecoming keyboard ninja.

 

Actually touchscreen ninja right now.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

What do you think buffs do?  Why, yes Johnny, they DO give out defense, resistance, regen and other goodies.  Some are teammate only, but many are team-wide. (P.S. just like maneuvers).  But even if they are teammate only, as a defender you want your meatshield and DPS upright and swinging.

 

And debuffs might as well be buffs.  If you are reducing your enemies' accuracy/tohit and damage you might as well consider that additional defense and resistance.

Strip all that away, and survivability boils down to how much defense, resistance, or regen you innately have.

 

No empath ever won the day by casting healing aura against a group of hard targets.

 

It boils down to whether or not he's soft capped in defense or not.

 

In team play, yeah buffs and debuffs come into play if you all aren't io setted out, but if you are io setted out those don't boil down to being necessary to survivability either.

 

An average team that would matter more but not in the end game incarnate style play.

[KelvinKole]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

If you want me to look up the definitions for quiescence and equilibrium, I can do that too.

 

Signed

 

CoH homecoming keyboard ninja.

 

Actually touchscreen ninja right now.

I'm going to resist going down this rabbit hole with you. Suffice it to say the definition you copied here doesn't match what you tried to say. Static does not mean "you don't have to do anything"

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, KelvinKole said:

I'm going to resist going down this rabbit hole with you. Suffice it to say the definition you copied here doesn't match what you tried to say. Static does not mean "you don't have to do anything"

Yes it does, according to the dictionary.

[Bionic_Flea]

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Strip all that away, and survivability boils down to how much defense, resistance, or regen you innately have.

 

No empath ever won the day by casting healing aura against a group of hard targets.

 

It boils down to whether or not he's soft capped in defense or not.

 

In team play, yeah buffs and debuffs come into play if you all aren't io setted out, but if you are io setted out those don't boil down to being necessary to survivability either.

 

An average team that would matter more but not in the end game incarnate style play.

 

The only way what you are saying makes sense is in AFK farming -- turn on all your toggles and a PBAoE on auto and go make a sandwich.  Everything else is dynamic.  Everyone is clicking buttons, the soft-capped, resist-capped brute as well as the rest of the team of squishies that are also soft-capped and resist-capped due to buffs on top of their own resources.

 

And if you want to talk about endgame - give me a league of defenders, corrupters, and controllers vs one of brutes, tanks, and scrappers. 

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

The only way what you are saying makes sense is in AFK farming -- turn on all your toggles and a PBAoE on auto and go make a sandwich.  Everything else is dynamic.  Everyone is clicking buttons, the soft-capped, resist-capped brute as well as the rest of the team of squishies that are also soft-capped and resist-capped due to buffs on top of their own resources.

 

And if you want to talk about endgame - give me a league of defenders, corrupters, and controllers vs one of brutes, tanks, and scrappers. 

Taking about survivability, you don't need hasten to do any of it.  Hasten doesn't speed up any of the toggles, the set bonuses, the passives or the incarnate powers. 

 

I'm looking at it from a tanking perspective but it also applies to my Scrappers, stalkers and brutes too.

 

You don't need hasten for survivability especially on melee, and again if you do, you aren't building it right in the first place.

 

I could see how it would apply for trollers because of speeding up control cast times and locking down mobs.

 

And if you are talking leagues, you wouldn't need hasten to debuff the poo out of your target when there are 24 debuffing or buffing.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Infinitum, @KelvinKole, I think you're both referring to the exact same thing but just with different semantics. 

 

If a character has X defenses with toggles on, passives, set bonuses on, etc, without having to actively click on anything then that is essentially their "static/passive state". Outside of retoggling, that is their normal state of operations for as long as they're logged in. For most characters that hit soft cap / etc, it is very rare to be detoggled so while it leans more towards "passive", for most of their time its essentially a "static" barrier.

 

For many sets tho, you see defensive abilities that are click powers. Regen for example, Healing Flames / Burn, click buffs for your team, click debuffs or controls, etc. Having more recharge makes these all better and better. You've personally seen what high recharge novas can do 😉 Getting nova up in less than 30s each spawn is something that can only be done with the big chunk of +rech from hasten if you dont want to sacrifice a bunch of other stats.

 

Recharge bonuses outside of LotG are usually found at around the 5th slot, and usually give 7.5% if you average them out. Even with 5 LotG, to match the 70% hasten gives youd need 30 slots worth of investment (5 lotg + 5 rech bonuses at 5 slots a piece). That is a lot of effort to match something you can pick up before lvl 10. Then, you can always slap hasten on top of that too.

 

Recharge is so dynamic because of the amount of powers out there that are clicks with long cooldowns that then can become perma or beyond with proper slotting. It is very hard to compare set to set as they will want different things. One person may not need extra recharge to function, where another cannot get enough and keeps getting better the more they have.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Bionic_Flea]

40 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Taking about survivability, you don't need hasten to do any of it.  Hasten doesn't speed up any of the toggles, the set bonuses, the passives or the incarnate powers. 

 

I'm looking at it from a tanking perspective but it also applies to my Scrappers, stalkers and brutes too.

 

You don't need hasten for survivability especially on melee, and again if you do, you aren't building it right in the first place.

 

I could see how it would apply for trollers because of speeding up control cast times and locking down mobs.

 

And if you are talking leagues, you wouldn't need hasten to debuff the poo out of your target when there are 24 debuffing or buffing.

Exactly.  You are thinking of this from the sole perspective as melee.  You aren't thinking about non-toggle defense and resist that you get from many buff sets (Time, Nature, Pain, etc) , but you need some decent recharge to make them perma.  Do I "need" hasten?  No, but it makes almost all of my builds better because I can choose different slotting and powers (including I-powers).

 

And how can you not want perma dull pain, or faster knockout blow and foot stomp, and so many other powers that don't directly affect defense, resist, or regen but definitely creates damage mitigation and increases DPS?

Edited April 29, 2020 by Bionic_Flea

[Infinitum]

25 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

And how can you not want perma dull pain

Because I dont need it.  

[tidge]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Because I dont need it.  

[Infinitum]

26 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Exactly.  You are thinking of this from the sole perspective as melee.  You aren't thinking about non-toggle defense and resist that you get from many buff sets (Time, Nature, Pain, etc) , but you need some decent recharge to make them perma.  Do I "need" hasten?  No, but it makes almost all of my builds better because I can choose different slotting and powers (including I-powers).

So basically hasten doesnt necessarily make any every build better in terms of survivability then.

 

Thats my point.

 

Its being made to look like hasten is this uber power that no build can live without and it doesn't cost anything to run it and neither are true in any sense.

 

Its nice to have but honestly on my melee its just because all the other pool power choices are crap or useless to what I'm doing.

 

Thats why the other pools need to be made more attractive.

[Bionic_Flea]

Need and want are different things.

 

You don't get XP from surviving, you get XP from defeating things.  Hasten lets you use your best powers more often.

 

But I don't think we are ever going to agree so . . . carry on.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Need and want are different things.

 

You don't get XP from surviving, you get XP from defeating things.  Hasten lets you use your best powers more often.

 

But I don't think we are ever going to agree so . . . carry on.

If you are on a team which I never solo as a tanker my best powers arent attacks.

 

My attacks compliment my defense to carry out my role as a tanker.

 

I get what you are saying, but its just not the same in every situation.

 

Thats why nerf hasten because it does X isn't a good argument because it isn't the same value across every AT, every build, every personal preference.

 

The fact that it is important to some still validates the point to leave it the hell alone.

 

I would much rather see more valuable choices in the useless table of pool powers added or redesigned to make hasten less attractive as an option or filler - whichever it is used for.

[therealtitanman]

Edited April 29, 2020 by therealtitanman

[Bunmaster]

Fun is subjective. Some people like minmax, some don't. Some like taking 10 min to defeat an EB, some don't. Don't like hasten, don't take it. Is it really that hard to comprehend?

 

At this stage of the game, with a volunteer crew, do you really want them to spend a year to rework and rebalance things so it makes you feel better?

 

While i don't perma hasten on all my toons, there is a great satisfaction spamming the heck out of foot stomp. It is glorious.

[Rathulfr]

I've revised my idea for Hasten to keep this thread going!  Feel free to pile on, everyone!

 

1. Add +15% recharge to Swift, so that everyone gets the functional equivalent of 2 LotG procs.
2. Make Hasten a toggle power like Combat Jumping or Hover, to allow us to /powexecauto a different click power (like Domination, * Brawler, etc.).  Everyone gets perma-Hasten and autocast freedom!  But this should come at a high endurance cost, like 0.32/sec (same as similar pool power toggles).
3. Nerf Hasten recharge to +50%.  Because Hasten is now a toggle instead of click, and Swift grants +15% recharge to everyone, nerf its recharge to +50%.  The new recharge of the combined Swift + Hasten is +65%, which is a 5% nerf, but that's not really a nerf because it's now a toggle and there's no longer any down time between Hasten cycles.  This will also be least disruptive to any builds that depend on a high global recharge value.
4. Add +defense to Hasten.  Because Hasten is now a toggle like CJ or Hover, it should also give the same defense percentage as CJ or Hover (~2%, depending on AT).  This means it should also take Def/EndRed  enhancements, and Defense IO sets.  This will make all of the travel power pools work consistently: Speed = Hasten + Super Speed, Leaping = Combat Jumping + Super Jump; Flight = Hover + Fly; Teleportation = never mind that, nobody takes Teleport anyway (/em whistles in the dark).

I've put on my best asbestos panties: fire!

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Rathulfr
added bits about end and defense enhancements

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, therealtitanman said:

 

Team NerfHerder: "But, but... WE CAN'T, Titanman! We just can't. Don't you understand? Thing X is POPULAR! Thing X also WORKS WELL! We can't possibly allow that! It has to be nerfed! Don't you see? Popular and useful powers will ruin the game!"

 

Yeah. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting very, very weary of all the nerfherders that have come out of the woodwork lately. It's starting to get ridiculous. <_<

[Lines]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

I've revised my idea for Hasten to keep this thread going!  Feel free to pile on, everyone!

 

1. Add +15% recharge to Swift, so that everyone gets the functional equivalent of 2 LotG procs.
2. Make Hasten a toggle power like Combat Jumping or Hover, to allow us to /powexecauto a different click power (like Domination, * Brawler, etc.).  Everyone gets perma-Hasten and autocast freedom!  But this should come at a high endurance cost, like 0.32/sec (same as similar pool power toggles).
3. Nerf Hasten recharge to +50%.  Because Hasten is now a toggle instead of click, and Swift grants +15% recharge to everyone, nerf its recharge to +50%.  The new recharge of the combined Swift + Hasten is +65%, which is a 5% nerf, but that's not really a nerf because it's now a toggle and there's no longer any down time between Hasten cycles.  This will also be least disruptive to any builds that depend on a high global recharge value.
4. Add +defense to Hasten.  Because Hasten is now a toggle like CJ or Hover, it should also give the same defense percentage as CJ or Hover (~2%, depending on AT).  This means it should also take Def/EndRed  enhancements, and Defense IO sets.  This will make all of the travel power pools work consistently: Speed = Hasten + Super Speed, Leaping = Combat Jumping + Super Jump; Flight = Hover + Fly; Teleportation = never mind that, nobody takes Teleport anyway (/em whistles in the dark).

I've put on my best asbestos panties: fire!

 

While I'm in the camp of 'it aint broke, don't fix', this does sound kinda cool to me.