Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[Parabola]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

I've revised my idea for Hasten to keep this thread going!  Feel free to pile on, everyone!

 

1. Add +15% recharge to Swift, so that everyone gets the functional equivalent of 2 LotG procs.
2. Make Hasten a toggle power like Combat Jumping or Hover, to allow us to /powexecauto a different click power (like Domination, * Brawler, etc.).  Everyone gets perma-Hasten and autocast freedom!  But this should come at a high endurance cost, like 0.32/sec (same as similar pool power toggles).
3. Nerf Hasten recharge to +50%.  Because Hasten is now a toggle instead of click, and Swift grants +15% recharge to everyone, nerf its recharge to +50%.  The new recharge of the combined Swift + Hasten is +65%, which is a 5% nerf, but that's not really a nerf because it's now a toggle and there's no longer any down time between Hasten cycles.  This will also be least disruptive to any builds that depend on a high global recharge value.
4. Add +defense to Hasten.  Because Hasten is now a toggle like CJ or Hover, it should also give the same defense percentage as CJ or Hover (~2%, depending on AT).  This means it should also take Def/EndRed  enhancements, and Defense IO sets.  This will make all of the travel power pools work consistently: Speed = Hasten + Super Speed, Leaping = Combat Jumping + Super Jump; Flight = Hover + Fly; Teleportation = never mind that, nobody takes Teleport anyway (/em whistles in the dark).

I've put on my best asbestos panties: fire!

 

This is very well thought through. I certainly wouldn't be upset with it. No flame retardant underwear required!

[Tugzug]

On 4/9/2020 at 3:19 PM, justicebeliever said:

It's very reasonable.  They are volunteer Dev's who get to work on the things they want to work on.  If they don't want to work on hasten, they don't need to give you, me, or anyone else justification.

 

I'd personally argue that more content is needed in the game before any more power rework.  But that's not a priority that is shared by the Dev's.  If that really sticks in my craw, then it sucks to be me.

 

To be clear - if the volunteer Dev's only want to work on the color of blue shading present in the game and build a big red ball to kick around in Steel Canyon and nothing else, that's their prerogative and if you really hate it, then your only option is to start your own server.  Fortunately that's not the dev team we have...

Yo, real talk? I want to kick a ball around Steel Canyon with my super powers. I didn't want this before! Why did you put this curse on me?

[Auroxis]

I like Hasten being a long recharge power that adds a goal to strive towards when planning your character, much like reaching the defense softcap, endurance stability, and resistance hardcap. These type of "breakpoints" add depth to the end-game, as your decisions advance your character exponentially and thus feel more impactful. Thunderspy even added more such powers that you can only perma if your build has constantly capped recharge (which is possible there, with sacrifices).

 

What I dislike about Hasten is that it takes up an auto-execute slot. I don't like that I can't auto Rage/Domination/Accelerate Metabolism/Mind Link/etc with it. I think the correct approach would be revamping the auto-execute system by adding a couple more auto-exec functions, with the restriction that you can only automate "very long" recharge powers with them and a priority system(for example green>teal>blue) in case they conflict.

[macskull]

16 hours ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

They could remove Hasten from the game entirely and it would not make the game any more difficult

No, but it would make it less fun.

[Grouchybeast]

7 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

 

1. Add +15% recharge to Swift, so that everyone gets the functional equivalent of 2 LotG procs.
2. Make Hasten a toggle power like Combat Jumping or Hover, to allow us to /powexecauto a different click power (like Domination, * Brawler, etc.).  Everyone gets perma-Hasten and autocast freedom!  But this should come at a high endurance cost, like 0.32/sec (same as similar pool power toggles).
3. Nerf Hasten recharge to +50%.  Because Hasten is now a toggle instead of click, and Swift grants +15% recharge to everyone, nerf its recharge to +50%.  The new recharge of the combined Swift + Hasten is +65%, which is a 5% nerf, but that's not really a nerf because it's now a toggle and there's no longer any down time between Hasten cycles.  This will also be least disruptive to any builds that depend on a high global recharge value.
4. Add +defense to Hasten.  Because Hasten is now a toggle like CJ or Hover, it should also give the same defense percentage as CJ or Hover (~2%, depending on AT).  This means it should also take Def/EndRed  enhancements, and Defense IO sets.  This will make all of the travel power pools work consistently: Speed = Hasten + Super Speed, Leaping = Combat Jumping + Super Jump; Flight = Hover + Fly; Teleportation = never mind that, nobody takes Teleport anyway (/em whistles in the dark).

Well, it all sounds pretty good to me.  Devs, you should do that ^^^

[KelvinKole]

7 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

I've revised my idea for Hasten to keep this thread going!  Feel free to pile on, everyone!

 

1. Add +15% recharge to Swift, so that everyone gets the functional equivalent of 2 LotG procs.
2. Make Hasten a toggle power like Combat Jumping or Hover, to allow us to /powexecauto a different click power (like Domination, * Brawler, etc.).  Everyone gets perma-Hasten and autocast freedom!  But this should come at a high endurance cost, like 0.32/sec (same as similar pool power toggles).
3. Nerf Hasten recharge to +50%.  Because Hasten is now a toggle instead of click, and Swift grants +15% recharge to everyone, nerf its recharge to +50%.  The new recharge of the combined Swift + Hasten is +65%, which is a 5% nerf, but that's not really a nerf because it's now a toggle and there's no longer any down time between Hasten cycles.  This will also be least disruptive to any builds that depend on a high global recharge value.
4. Add +defense to Hasten.  Because Hasten is now a toggle like CJ or Hover, it should also give the same defense percentage as CJ or Hover (~2%, depending on AT).  This means it should also take Def/EndRed  enhancements, and Defense IO sets.  This will make all of the travel power pools work consistently: Speed = Hasten + Super Speed, Leaping = Combat Jumping + Super Jump; Flight = Hover + Fly; Teleportation = never mind that, nobody takes Teleport anyway (/em whistles in the dark).

I've put on my best asbestos panties: fire!

 

This is pretty great. Well done.

[Zepp]

10 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

I've revised my idea for Hasten to keep this thread going!  Feel free to pile on, everyone!

 

1. Add +15% recharge to Swift, so that everyone gets the functional equivalent of 2 LotG procs.
2. Make Hasten a toggle power like Combat Jumping or Hover, to allow us to /powexecauto a different click power (like Domination, * Brawler, etc.).  Everyone gets perma-Hasten and autocast freedom!  But this should come at a high endurance cost, like 0.32/sec (same as similar pool power toggles).
3. Nerf Hasten recharge to +50%.  Because Hasten is now a toggle instead of click, and Swift grants +15% recharge to everyone, nerf its recharge to +50%.  The new recharge of the combined Swift + Hasten is +65%, which is a 5% nerf, but that's not really a nerf because it's now a toggle and there's no longer any down time between Hasten cycles.  This will also be least disruptive to any builds that depend on a high global recharge value.
4. Add +defense to Hasten.  Because Hasten is now a toggle like CJ or Hover, it should also give the same defense percentage as CJ or Hover (~2%, depending on AT).  This means it should also take Def/EndRed  enhancements, and Defense IO sets.  This will make all of the travel power pools work consistently: Speed = Hasten + Super Speed, Leaping = Combat Jumping + Super Jump; Flight = Hover + Fly; Teleportation = never mind that, nobody takes Teleport anyway (/em whistles in the dark).

I've put on my best asbestos panties: fire!

 

I was actually waiting for the "powercreep" responses while thinking of my own response. It seems reasonable enough (other than the TP shade...) I'd have to run some numbers on the couple of builds that I do use hasten in, but they should be able to survive the 5% cut or find it somewhere else.

[kenlon]

If those changes went in, Hasten would become even more ubiquitous than it is now. +65% permanent +recharge and +defense and a place to slot another LotG without taking a pure mule power?

 

I mean, I'd take it as better than nerfing hasten, since it doesn't upset the balance assumptions the game is built on much, but damn, that's powercreep in a can.

[AkuTenshiiZero]

7 hours ago, Tugzug said:

Yo, real talk? I want to kick a ball around Steel Canyon with my super powers. I didn't want this before! Why did you put this curse on me?

I distinctly remember long ago in Live there was a long-running lobby to have a big red ball put into the game, but I think the tech just didn't exist at the time to properly handle the physics or something.  I mean you see what we do to NPCs on a regular basis, I can't imagine this game could simulate a bouncing ball without it turning the whole damn zone inside out.

[EyeLuvBooks]

I'd rather see them spend their time doing virtually anything else except maybe adding more horns to Costumes (I think we have horns covered for a while). On Live Super Jump was the most popular movement power followed by Flight. Should SJ be nerfed then?

 

I usually don't take Hasten. I don't insist others take Hasten. Why would you insist that there's a problem with it just because YOU don't like it?

 

I HATE the animations on several powers but I'm not going to cry to the Devs about changing it for me.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just want to put this out there, but just being popular is not the reason its popularity is being brought up.

 

The fact that it is #2 below flight, and ranked above other travel powers in a vacuum seems to say "well the travel powers are popular too so they're op!". The travel powers are a given that most all characters take, flight being probably the most iconic. For a self buff to be in the same league as something like Flight, and above the likes of Super Speed itself by a factor of almost 2 suggests that as many people are taking hasten for its effects as people are taking travel powers for their theme. 

 

 

[TechbotAlpha]

25 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Just want to put this out there, but just being popular is not the reason its popularity is being brought up.

 

The fact that it is #2 below flight, and ranked above other travel powers in a vacuum seems to say "well the travel powers are popular too so they're op!". The travel powers are a given that most all characters take, flight being probably the most iconic. For a self buff to be in the same league as something like Flight, and above the likes of Super Speed itself by a factor of almost 2 suggests that as many people are taking hasten for its effects as people are taking travel powers for their theme. 

 

 

Maybe something to do with a lot of the playerbase being old-timers, who were used to hasten being a thing, who just carried on old habits?

I still work it into a lot of builds, just not all of them. I don't find the game any less fun.

[kenlon]

3 hours ago, TechbotAlpha said:

I still work it into a lot of builds, just not all of them. I don't find the game any less fun.

And that's perfectly reasonable. But you have to acknowledge that a build with Hasten is going to be more powerful in general than one without it, because Hasten is really that good. (Which is bad design - it's not on the level of the old fitness pool, where if you didn't take Stamina you might as well just not play, but it's crazy the force multiplier you get from a single pool power.)

[Rathulfr]

17 hours ago, kenlon said:

If those changes went in, Hasten would become even more ubiquitous than it is now. +65% permanent +recharge and +defense and a place to slot another LotG without taking a pure mule power?

 

I mean, I'd take it as better than nerfing hasten, since it doesn't upset the balance assumptions the game is built on much, but damn, that's powercreep in a can.

Here's the thing: my original idea was just to add +15% recharge to Swift so that I wouldn't need to take Hasten on many of my builds, and wouldn't commit me to taking "pure mule powers" for slotting LotG procs.  I could have more flexibility in my builds if I didn't need to pick Hasten and LotG mule powers, and I suspect many others are in the same boat.

 

But the problem is that you can't just slap on +15% recharge in Swift for everyone without nerfing Hasten by a commensurate amount, because that would indeed contribute to power creep on those people who do take Hasten as well.  And the mere mention of "nerf Hasten" -- even if it's justified and balanced out by a buff elsewhere -- sends people into apoplexy (see this and the many other similar threads if you're not convinced).  They hear only "nerf Hasten", but not the "buff Swift" that preceded it (which is why I put that first in my revised list).

 

And after seeing the outrage in this 13 (at the time) page thread (and others like it), and thinking on it some more, I realized that the key to nerfing something so beloved by so many is to tweak it to provide a different benefit that would have as wide an appeal (queue "Spoonful of Sugar" from Mary Poppins).  The only thing people love more than Hasten is perma-Hasten, and the biggest criticism of Hasten is that it's a click, not a toggle.  So the only thing that would make nerfing Hasten palatable to even the most rabid of the pro and con camps is to suggest that we make it a toggle, instead of a click.

 

And if we're going to make a toggle, we might as well make it work like the other travel power toggles, Combat Jumping and Hover.  That provides even more flexibility, as it means I don't to have to take both Hasten + Combat Jumping (or Hover): I take one and get the benefits of both.

 

But just like in that book, by now we've gone far afield of simply addressing my original problem of needing a tiny smidge more recharge to skip Hasten.  Yes, it becomes "powercreep in a can"; however, I think it might be (might) a tolerable amount of power creep, as it would give players more flexibility in power picks and IO set choices.

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Rathulfr

[kenlon]

11 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Yes, it becomes "powercreep in a can"; however, I think it might be (might) a tolerable amount of power creep, as it would give players more flexibility in power choices and IO set choices.

Like I said, I'd absolutely prefer it to a heavy-handed nerf of hasten. In fact, if Hasten had been originally designed something along these lines, with some sort of balancing drawback/investment cost - maybe with Hasten as the top power in Speed so it requires significant investment, or perhaps with a global endurance cost debuff to offset it's power, then I would say it wasn't badly designed at all. 

 

Pushing it up to the fourth power as a toggle (which, of course, requires that the other powers be made to not suck) would make it like Weave, vital to some builds, useful to others. And since you wouldn't need to build huge amounts of other global recharge to get Hasten on permanently, then you can tune how much recharge fits your particular AT/powerset.

 

It's really starting to grow on me as an idea, though revamping the order of powers in Speed is probably going to bring out the "but but but COTTAGE RULE" hordes. 😄

Edited April 30, 2020 by kenlon

[Bionic_Flea]

The biggest problem with making major changes to existing powers is what happens to characters that already have the power.  If you changed Hasten to the fourth slot, what would happen to existing characters?  Are they unplayable?  Forced to respec? Grandfathered until they try to respec?

 

If you otherwise just changed the amount of recharge that Hasten grants, what do you do for all the characters that took it to achieve a perma-power goal, whether that be Domination, Dull Pain, Chrono-Shift, or anything else?  Do all those characters get told to "suck it up, buttercup" and either deal with the loss of perma-whatever or respec to try and add more global recharge via IOs?

 

[Rathulfr]

26 minutes ago, kenlon said:

Like I said, I'd absolutely prefer it to a heavy-handed nerf of hasten. In fact, if Hasten had been originally designed something along these lines, with some sort of balancing drawback/investment cost - maybe with Hasten as the top power in Speed so it requires significant investment, or perhaps with a global endurance cost debuff to offset it's power, then I would say it wasn't badly designed at all. 

 

Pushing it up to the fourth power as a toggle (which, of course, requires that the other powers be made to not suck) would make it like Weave, vital to some builds, useful to others. And since you wouldn't need to build huge amounts of other global recharge to get Hasten on permanently, then you can tune how much recharge fits your particular AT/powerset.

 

It's really starting to grow on me as an idea, though revamping the order of powers in Speed is probably going to bring out the "but but but COTTAGE RULE" hordes. 😄

I do not support the idea of moving Hasten down in the order of powers.  The argument is to make Hasten consistent with the other (formerly) prerequisite travel pool powers, Combat Jumping and Hover.  That means making it available at the same time as CJ and Hover.  I would consider than non-negotiable.  I think that making Hasten end-hungry (0.32/sec) is sufficient drawback/investment cost.

[kenlon]

Yeah, the Hasten as 4th power idea was mostly me thinking through "what if this was being designed from scratch?" since there's not a chance in hell it gets implemented that way. Either that or it should come out of speed entirely and be part of some sort of "self-enhancement" pool. Put things like a version of Assault that doesn't suck and maybe a debuff resist power, all of them with hefty end costs. . . 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, kenlon said:

And that's perfectly reasonable. But you have to acknowledge that a build with Hasten is going to be more powerful in general than one without it, because Hasten is really that good. (Which is bad design - it's not on the level of the old fitness pool, where if you didn't take Stamina you might as well just not play, but it's crazy the force multiplier you get from a single pool power.)

This position is why I find your position hyperbolic. As has been spelled out in this and other threads all beating on the old horse of global recharge, Plenty of sets simply do not benefit enough from global recharge to make it the optimal set bonus focus to invest in. A very simple example is Regen vs. Willpower on scrappers. Regen is going to be best off imo with a primary focus of global recharge in its set bonuses. Will power as a toggle heavy set has no reason to really want Hasten at the cost of other set options.

 

Same can be said of any one with enough attack powers that make hasten needed for a good chain redundant. Yes there are plenty of by design very click heavy builds that leverage recharge bonuses. Its not any different then a squishy AT using sets and pools to be tanky enough to offset their inherent flaw enough to go outside the box.

 

Finally I really do not think toggle hasten is ever gonna be a good idea. imo it simply rewards the worst kind of player the most, those wanting hasten plus other powers they prefer to leave on auto. Actions per minute and managing them alongside cooldowns etc are all part of active game play. ! power being made to be auto is the cap for a reason, and wanting to sneak in ways to remove a common lazy player complaint makes me find this whole thread whiffing of something unpleasant.

[Infinitum]

On 4/29/2020 at 12:00 PM, Rathulfr said:

I've revised my idea for Hasten to keep this thread going!  Feel free to pile on, everyone!

 

1. Add +15% recharge to Swift, so that everyone gets the functional equivalent of 2 LotG procs.
2. Make Hasten a toggle power like Combat Jumping or Hover, to allow us to /powexecauto a different click power (like Domination, * Brawler, etc.).  Everyone gets perma-Hasten and autocast freedom!  But this should come at a high endurance cost, like 0.32/sec (same as similar pool power toggles).
3. Nerf Hasten recharge to +50%.  Because Hasten is now a toggle instead of click, and Swift grants +15% recharge to everyone, nerf its recharge to +50%.  The new recharge of the combined Swift + Hasten is +65%, which is a 5% nerf, but that's not really a nerf because it's now a toggle and there's no longer any down time between Hasten cycles.  This will also be least disruptive to any builds that depend on a high global recharge value.
4. Add +defense to Hasten.  Because Hasten is now a toggle like CJ or Hover, it should also give the same defense percentage as CJ or Hover (~2%, depending on AT).  This means it should also take Def/EndRed  enhancements, and Defense IO sets.  This will make all of the travel power pools work consistently: Speed = Hasten + Super Speed, Leaping = Combat Jumping + Super Jump; Flight = Hover + Fly; Teleportation = never mind that, nobody takes Teleport anyway (/em whistles in the dark).

I've put on my best asbestos panties: fire!

 

 

Hasten has quite the following, yes, but again I think it's more to do witha combination of why not take it, what else is there and also man my build needs it to perma X power.

 

But none of that says its OP or an outlier to me, if anything its more indicting that the above chart of those sets dont provide any incentive to not get hasten - not to mention the top tier of speed has similar numbers to these also.

 

The balance issue isnt that hasten is too good or that it is even too popular, but that there isn't one dang useful choice left over to replace it with once you theme out the character with the other pools.  Whats left over is the above crap and its wall to wall crap as you can see by the numbers.

 

So why in the blue hell would you not take hasten?

 

Give us other valid choices to not want to take it, revise the above sets to offer something that isn't hot garbage.

[Zepp]

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Plenty of sets simply do not benefit enough from global recharge to make it the optimal set bonus focus to invest in. A very simple example is Regen vs. Willpower on scrappers. Regen is going to be best off imo with a primary focus of global recharge in its set bonuses. Willpower as a toggle heavy set has no reason to really want Hasten at the cost of other set options.

 

Same can be said of any one with enough attack powers that make hasten needed for a good chain redundant. Yes there are plenty of by design very click heavy builds that leverage recharge bonuses. Its not any different then a squishy AT using sets and pools to be tanky enough to offset their inherent flaw enough to go outside the box.

This is why the issue is those proposing nerfing are dealing with what they perceive to be a mechanical issue, when in reality it is a sociological issue. I've seen plenty of WP builds with Hasten. Hell, I've seen a Claws/WP/Darkness build with Hasten... you don't need more than 80% global recharge on that build, why go for 220%?

Yes, Hasten is quite useful in a number of builds. In many builds, getting what you need for perma-Hasten is sufficient for what you think you need Hasten for. That being said, moving Hasten to a later position and requiring more investment is not only uncalled for (Hasten is not that OP), but also would hit certain ATs and powersets harder than others. Changing Hasten would have such widespread consequences on power balance that you are talking about 2-3 years worth of tinkering and playtesting to actually put it into effect.

It would be better to actually deal with the fact that most Pool Powers are subpar than to nerf one that is close to par. (above par for certain ATs/powersets, below par for others).

[Galaxy Brain]

So, curious on the question of how much does Rech matter to some builds, I went to my Recharge Guide and made a new page to sort out what powersets and ATs are most likely the heaviest impacted:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BFWfOT1ds4J1OJFuAqRX_2B43Cq9rJEF90xFkXyeDsk/edit#gid=1091849895

 

There are many angles to look at this, so first lets look at exactly how many powers total fit the criteria of "Requires more recharge than you can slot to become 'Perma'" :

• Omitting Epic and Patron powers for the moment as they are a bit of a mess with some being copies between ATs and some having variations
  • The patron pets, and any potent self buffs (Soul Drain, Shadow Meld, Power Build Up/Boost, etc) of course get better the more Rech you get
• Also, lumping together "cloned" powers such as Build Up, Aim, Dull Pain, "Rain" powers and so on as that would fudge the numbers a bit with "every" set being listed
  • Essentially every set with a potent self buff like Build Up, or Dull Pain strictly gets better the more you can use it
• Results:
  • 55 sets out of 139 unique powersets have at least 1 power that requires more than 99% recharge in order to become perma (39.57%)
  • 11/60 Pool Powers (including Hasten) require >99% recharge (18.33%)

 

Out of the powersets surveyed, the amount of sets available to each AT that had at least 1 such power:

 

Controller	21	84.00%
Mastermind	14	60.87%
Dominator	13	68.42%
Defender	11	37.93%
Corruptor	11	37.93%
Blaster	10	38.46%
Scrapper	9	28.13%
Brute	8	22.86%
Stalker	8	26.67%
Tanker	7	21.21%
Sentinel	6	24.00%

 

 

 

Epic AT's all had at least 1. Soldiers are unique in that all paths have at least 1.

 

A Soldier	3	100.00%
PB	1	100.00%
WS	1	100.00%
A Widow	1	100.00%

 

 

Powersets that had more than 1 power that needs >99% recharge:

 

Earth Control	4
Fortunata	4
Peacebringer	4
Bio Armor	3
Empathy	3
Pain Domination	3
Radiation Emish	3
Trick Arrow	3
Dark Control	3
Gravity Control	3
Plant Control	3
Rad Armor	2
Cold Domination	2
Nature Affinity	2
Thermal Rad	2
Time Manip	2
Fire Control	2
Ice Control	2
Mind Control	2
Darkness Affin	2
Illusion Control	2
Martial Combat	2

 

 

More data can be seen in the link.

 

 

 

What struck me here is that about 40% of powersets appear to have at least 1 power that you'd need bonus recharge to use permanently, and on top of the most of that appears to be concentrated in control and support.

 

[Gobbledigook]

I stopped reading after the first sentence. Reads like a child having a tantrum lol.

 

People are definitely going stir crazy stuck inside.

[Zepp]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What struck me here is that about 40% of powersets appear to have at least 1 power that you'd need bonus recharge to use permanently, and on top of the most of that appears to be concentrated in control and support.

So, basically, what I have been saying. Reductions or adjustments to Hasten will disproportionately affect control & support ATs.

I think if you remove T9 armors (most of which are designed as panic buttons rather than keystone powers) it makes that even more clear.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

So, basically, what I have been saying. Reductions or adjustments to Hasten will disproportionately affect control & support ATs.

I think if you remove T9 armors (most of which are designed as panic buttons rather than keystone powers) it makes that even more clear.

I didn't even include the t9s as they are so impossible to perma with so little payoff anyways 😛

 

Should also mention that not all of those 55 sets / 11 pool powers *require* hasten lvl of recharge, but it certainly helps.

 

If anything, I think it shows that recharge is simply very valuable, and having a source of 70% in a bottle is very tricky to balance.