I've always been nervous about playing Tankers

[Hardboiled Hero]

 

 

  Now the big questions:

 

  What are the good and bad points of each primary as it concerns Tankers?

 

 What are the good and bad points of each secondary as they apply to tankers?

 

What primary/secondary pairings are particularly good for Tankers (or for which type of content)?

 

What Primary/Secondary pairing are particularly bad for Tankers (or for what type of content)?

 

  Any other thoughts or concerns you have that might be helpful to new Tankers?

 

 

 

  So I'm really surprised that when I came to this forum, no one seems to have written any really in depth guide on tanking sets.  Surely there must be some difference in how a fire/fire Tanker compares to a Mace/Invulnerability or Street Justice/Super Reflexes tank. If I've learned anything in this game, it's that sets don't always work as advertised.

 

First a little bit of background (actually, I'll ask the questions first, as the background is a bit of reading)

 

  I have characters from every AT right now.. and honestly most of them I don't really care about whether they have the "right build" or not.  My Energy/martial blaster is fun.. I try to be careful with the knockback, but honestly I think the KB can save my friends' lives sometimes.  I'm enjoying all sorts of Sentinels, trying to figure out ways to make them good. I have a couple of corrupters, some defenders, and while I'm generally not a big fan of scrappers or stalkers, I'll just whip one up occasionally with powersets that I think will be fun, even if I don't think they'll be the most powerful. I even found a Controller that genuinely seems fun to play (Illusion/sonic)..  but for some reason I always get really nervous about my Tankers.   In fact, when it comes to making Tankers, I often come up with concepts and just as I'm about to hit the button to enter the game I think "You know self, this character would probably be better as a Brute."

 

  So I can kind of tell you what the problem is..  When my only job is to do damage, it doesn't really matter to me how good I am at that, because everyone in a team has the same job, at least to a small degree.  Back on live, I used to make Brutes to tank and, while I love Brutes these days, I found that my SS/DA Brute (My first and would be "Main" character) had a lot of weaknesses and couldn't tank well, so I didn't play her much..  but at some point people stopped expecting the Brutes to tank, and the AT became much more fun to me at that point.

 

  Controllers, Dominators, and to a lesser degree defenders and corruptors, I feel like my non-damage contributions make a difference, but I don't really get as nervous when making/playing them.  I mean, some controls and buff/debuff may be better than others, but rarely do any of them seem completely useless. (Admittedly I only have 1 controller right now, largely because they lack damage potential, imo. Dominators on the other hand are one of my favorites because they can control and still add some damage.)

 

  But with Tankers I feel like you're either alive and contributing, or your dead an not contributing. I don't feel there's a middle ground of "well I might not be the most useful tank, but I'm good enough."

  Now that perception of mine is also compounded by another issue..  Tankers are billed as being "unkillable".. or at least hard to kill.. but in my actual play experience I probably have had my tankers die more than any other AT (per capita at least.. I play Brutes way more often than Tankers).  The thing is, the ability to kill quickly keeps characters from dying..  it also helps the character get through missions faster etc.  So in my experience Tankers generally die more than other AT's and progress more slowly than other AT's, largely because they do so little damage..  Now I'm told that Tanker damage has been buffed recently, so I'm hoping I won't feel this as much anymore. I want to give it a fair go.

 

  and in case all this hasn't made it clear, I like characters with good concepts.. characters that are "fun"..  but my "fun" is also greatly impacted by my feelings of value to a team and I get no sense of achievement from doing things "the hard way".. so I like "flashy things", but if those flashy things can't make it through content only slightly slower than other things, and without dying a million times, then my fun goes out the window.

[killigraphy]

Primary wise; You're a wall for all dmg, obviously some shine more than others; Invul, Rock, etc are S/L resist machines...naturally, I'm excluding IO's since everyone is godlike with them. Every power but your T9 are worth getting (depending on the t9). Six slots your res's in case you eventually want to slot some IO's in there. I'd say the same with your Defense based toggles/auto's but again, you can look for guides on here for the specifics.

 

Secondary's; Take taunt, you're a tank, any little bit is helpful, as well as...its your job. Don't assume you're gonna be a powerhouse even though you took SS and think you're a Brute, again, not your job, and without IO's, you're 10th best at dmg.

 

A lot of your life is going to be flurry spamming till you get all your primaries. Plenty of temp/p2w powers there, so that'll keep you busy for a bit. You'll also be running three-five toggles depending on your type (Invul/Dark know the pain), so you don't want to be spamming many attacks to begin with. Rad and Bio tanking, are very noob friendly, and don't turn you into a brawl pup just for attacking twice.  My best advice on the issue, is to never pick a DA until you have the influence/Io's to do so. Since you're pretty much going to be running the most toggles in the game with that powerset. Stay away for now, and make one later when you're a rich man.

 

I would also advise WP as its a great regen/Invul clone that makes life a lot easier and has minimal fx. Invul is very flashy (Rainbow Invincibility), and only has 3 toggles. DA is the flashiest, but again, you're running 6-8 toggles, you will have zero end. Bio and Rad have polarizing flashy abilities and are user friendly. Decide around that area, if bright lights are a must.

[Pzn]

3 hours ago, killigraphy said:

Primary wise; You're a wall for all dmg, obviously some shine more than others; Invul, Rock, etc are S/L resist machines...naturally, I'm excluding IO's since everyone is godlike with them. Every power but your T9 are worth getting (depending on the t9). Six slots your res's in case you eventually want to slot some IO's in there. I'd say the same with your Defense based toggles/auto's but again, you can look for guides on here for the specifics.

 

Secondary's; Take taunt, you're a tank, any little bit is helpful, as well as...its your job. Don't assume you're gonna be a powerhouse even though you took SS and think you're a Brute, again, not your job, and without IO's, you're 10th best at dmg.

 

A lot of your life is going to be flurry spamming till you get all your primaries. Plenty of temp/p2w powers there, so that'll keep you busy for a bit. You'll also be running three-five toggles depending on your type (Invul/Dark know the pain), so you don't want to be spamming many attacks to begin with. Rad and Bio tanking, are very noob friendly, and don't turn you into a brawl pup just for attacking twice.  My best advice on the issue, is to never pick a DA until you have the influence/Io's to do so. Since you're pretty much going to be running the most toggles in the game with that powerset. Stay away for now, and make one later when you're a rich man.

 

I would also advise WP as its a great regen/Invul clone that makes life a lot easier and has minimal fx. Invul is very flashy (Rainbow Invincibility), and only has 3 toggles. DA is the flashiest, but again, you're running 6-8 toggles, you will have zero end. Bio and Rad have polarizing flashy abilities and are user friendly. Decide around that area, if bright lights are a must.

Depending on how you're building it can be beneficial to minimize slots in your resistance toggles.  Some armor sets have an easier time capping resistances and don't need as many resistance set bonuses.  On those builds I'll just throw 2 50+5 resistance IOs in toggles if there are better bonuses to slot elsewhere.

Edited May 11, 2020 by josh1622

[tidge]

35 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

Depending on how you're building it can be beneficial to minimize slots in your resistance toggles.  Some armor sets have an easier time capping resistances and don't need as many resistance set bonuses.  On those builds I'll just throw 2 50+5 resistance IOs in toggles if there are better bonuses to slot elsewhere.

I agree. Unless a S/L resist is being used to mule an IO, or chasing an IO set bonus, adding extra slots may be buying less than you think. This advice is true for other Resists (and often for certain specific Defenses as well), but Smashing/Lethal is where I often see overkill... at least for a majority of game content.

 

While leveling a tank, the early slots should probably go into your secondary set attacks to reduce Endurance costs before adding them to your primary sets. You can always respec later.

[killigraphy]

6 hours ago, josh1622 said:

Depending on how you're building it can be beneficial to minimize slots in your resistance toggles.  Some armor sets have an easier time capping resistances and don't need as many resistance set bonuses.  On those builds I'll just throw 2 50+5 resistance IOs in toggles if there are better bonuses to slot elsewhere.

 

To quote myself "No IO's". Like I already mentioned, everyone is now "godlike" because of them. I like to humble that ideology by using base values just with SO's. Even then, they have 6 set defense and res IO's, so it still works, overkill? Sure, but end game you really have nothing to do with a level 50 besides min maxing.

 

[Pzn]

5 hours ago, killigraphy said:

 

To quote myself "No IO's". Like I already mentioned, everyone is now "godlike" because of them. I like to humble that ideology by using base values just with SO's. Even then, they have 6 set defense and res IO's, so it still works, overkill? Sure, but end game you really have nothing to do with a level 50 besides min maxing.

 

You literally said to 6 slot the resistance toggles in case he wanted to slot IOs.  If you're going to min/max then it's not always optimal to 6 slot resistance powers.  If you're not using IOs then I'm even more confused as to why you would say to 6 slot resistance and defense powers.

Edited May 12, 2020 by josh1622

[killigraphy]

20 hours ago, josh1622 said:

You literally said to 6 slot the resistance toggles in case he wanted to slot IOs.  If you're going to min/max then it's not always optimal to 6 slot resistance powers.  If you're not using IOs then I'm even more confused as to why you would say to 6 slot resistance and defense powers.

Don't worry about it, move on.

[Pzn]

2 hours ago, killigraphy said:

Don't worry about it, move on.

No problem, your mistake.

Edited May 12, 2020 by josh1622

[killigraphy]

3 hours ago, josh1622 said:

No problem, your mistake.

Move on kid, your mistake.

[Call Me Awesome]

31 minutes ago, killigraphy said:

Move on kid, your mistake.

No, he's right.  You're insisting on SO builds, then insisting on "6 slot all armors".  In an SO build you'll NEVER go more than 3 slots in any passive and almost never go more than 4 slots in a toggle.

 

Unless you're slotting for IO bonuses you'll almost NEVER 6 slot any armor.  The rule with SO's is 3 resist or defense in a passive and add one endurance reduction to that for a toggle.  More than that is a waste with SO's.

 

When you start looking for IO bonuses the slotting becomes much more complex, the number of slots in any given power depends completely on the overall build.  Sometimes you'll 6 slot an armor power or two and sometimes you'll stop at 3 or 4 depending on your build.  

 

There is no one size fits all rule for the number of slots in a power when Set IO bonuses are involved.

[Troo]

@Hardboiled Hero remember, forum advice is worth what you pay for it.

 

Oversimplification of Tanking in CoX: "Take the alpha and be quick about it"

 

My advice would be try a couple out and see what works for you.

Generally, there are synergies that exist which can make life easier. Dark Melee has some heal and/or endurance recovery that could help an armor that is lacking in those areas. Some like Broad Sword and Katana have a +def that might help a resistance leaning armor.

 

While leveling I would totally prioritize slotting up anything that helps me simply survive. An Invulnerability example might look like:

 

Good luck and happy tanking.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Troo

[Sovera]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:05 AM, Hardboiled Hero said:

  Any other thoughts or concerns you have that might be helpful to new Tankers?

I feel your questions are a bit too generic to be easily addressed.

 

As a rule of thumb every Tanker primary can do a good job at keeping you up, but you need a build. If your tanker is regularly dying it can be placed down at the feet of the build not being complete or just plain not being good. Dying once in a while is fine. It happens. The game tends to cheat a bit to keep things interesting.

 

But simply throwing defense or resistance into your shields is not enough. Sometimes you need to worry about endurance sapping, other times about recharge debuffs stacking up, and you absolutely need to worry about reaching certain number caps in terms of defense and resistance.

 

 

Now the good news is that there are plenty of builds in these forums that you can try it out. I currently have a little beast of Rad Armor/Martial Arts that took reaching level 43 and do an ITF while still not having slotted my shields to finally die for the first time. Once at 50 and having slotted everything an ITF will hold no particular terrors to it which is how things work. Dying while leveling and underslotted happens, but once at 50 and everything shored and in place you should be fine.

[killigraphy]

Ultimately, so long as you can survive the alpha, and pay attention to how you have your resists/defenses slotted, you should be more than fine. You can find plenty of builds on here.

 

Essentially; learn more about what your role does and how you're expected to lead a team.

[ninja surprise]

On 5/12/2020 at 9:34 PM, Call Me Awesome said:

No, he's right.  You're insisting on SO builds, then insisting on "6 slot all armors".  In an SO build you'll NEVER go more than 3 slots in any passive and almost never go more than 4 slots in a toggle.

 

Since the starting values on passives are so small, it can be overkill to more than one-slot a passive.

One slot, definitely. Two slots, probably. Three slots if you have slots and inf to spare and don't mind you're only getting about half a percent increase to the total value.

 

Back to OP:

What primary/secondary pairings are particularly good for Tankers (or for which type of content)?

 

Energy Aura / War Mace is both strong and pretty, and great for all content except the stuff it doesn't have high defense against.

 

What Primary/Secondary pairing are particularly bad for Tankers (or for what type of content)?

 

Stone Armor / Anything is bad for any content with stairs.

[Golden Azrael]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:05 AM, Hardboiled Hero said:

 

 

  Now the big questions:

 

  What are the good and bad points of each primary as it concerns Tankers?

 

 What are the good and bad points of each secondary as they apply to tankers?

 

What primary/secondary pairings are particularly good for Tankers (or for which type of content)?

 

What Primary/Secondary pairing are particularly bad for Tankers (or for what type of content)?

 

  Any other thoughts or concerns you have that might be helpful to new Tankers?

 

 

 

  So I'm really surprised that when I came to this forum, no one seems to have written any really in depth guide on tanking sets.  Surely there must be some difference in how a fire/fire Tanker compares to a Mace/Invulnerability or Street Justice/Super Reflexes tank. If I've learned anything in this game, it's that sets don't always work as advertised.

 

First a little bit of background (actually, I'll ask the questions first, as the background is a bit of reading)

 

  I have characters from every AT right now.. and honestly most of them I don't really care about whether they have the "right build" or not.  My Energy/martial blaster is fun.. I try to be careful with the knockback, but honestly I think the KB can save my friends' lives sometimes.  I'm enjoying all sorts of Sentinels, trying to figure out ways to make them good. I have a couple of corrupters, some defenders, and while I'm generally not a big fan of scrappers or stalkers, I'll just whip one up occasionally with powersets that I think will be fun, even if I don't think they'll be the most powerful. I even found a Controller that genuinely seems fun to play (Illusion/sonic)..  but for some reason I always get really nervous about my Tankers.   In fact, when it comes to making Tankers, I often come up with concepts and just as I'm about to hit the button to enter the game I think "You know self, this character would probably be better as a Brute."

 

  So I can kind of tell you what the problem is..  When my only job is to do damage, it doesn't really matter to me how good I am at that, because everyone in a team has the same job, at least to a small degree.  Back on live, I used to make Brutes to tank and, while I love Brutes these days, I found that my SS/DA Brute (My first and would be "Main" character) had a lot of weaknesses and couldn't tank well, so I didn't play her much..  but at some point people stopped expecting the Brutes to tank, and the AT became much more fun to me at that point.

 

  Controllers, Dominators, and to a lesser degree defenders and corruptors, I feel like my non-damage contributions make a difference, but I don't really get as nervous when making/playing them.  I mean, some controls and buff/debuff may be better than others, but rarely do any of them seem completely useless. (Admittedly I only have 1 controller right now, largely because they lack damage potential, imo. Dominators on the other hand are one of my favorites because they can control and still add some damage.)

 

  But with Tankers I feel like you're either alive and contributing, or your dead an not contributing. I don't feel there's a middle ground of "well I might not be the most useful tank, but I'm good enough."

  Now that perception of mine is also compounded by another issue..  Tankers are billed as being "unkillable".. or at least hard to kill.. but in my actual play experience I probably have had my tankers die more than any other AT (per capita at least.. I play Brutes way more often than Tankers).  The thing is, the ability to kill quickly keeps characters from dying..  it also helps the character get through missions faster etc.  So in my experience Tankers generally die more than other AT's and progress more slowly than other AT's, largely because they do so little damage..  Now I'm told that Tanker damage has been buffed recently, so I'm hoping I won't feel this as much anymore. I want to give it a fair go.

 

  and in case all this hasn't made it clear, I like characters with good concepts.. characters that are "fun"..  but my "fun" is also greatly impacted by my feelings of value to a team and I get no sense of achievement from doing things "the hard way".. so I like "flashy things", but if those flashy things can't make it through content only slightly slower than other things, and without dying a million times, then my fun goes out the window.

The truth? 

 

WE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!

 

MOAR dAMGE!  End of argument with far less penalties.  Cake it and eat it.

 

The tanks were eclipsed by the most of the tank Brutes as soon as they came over to hero side.  MOAR damaAGE!  MoST of TeH resistance and survivy.  Just as much AGeRO.

 

And to add insult to injury you can pile resists in an IO set build or defence cap to render the argument MoOT.

 

And have way more damage.  So what's the point of playing a tank unless you want to hang out with Controllers who also do 'not as much damage' as a scrapper.  (Part from those Fire/Kins controllers...but we don't talk about that...)

 

I still like tanks.  The recent tank patch is the 1st step to tank redemption.

 

Give them a 'Rage' toggle button or a domi damage builder button.  POP!  RAGE!!!!  Sustained damage boost for a minute and drop build up like the limited stink it is.

 

Liberate tankers from 2nd fiddle to Brutes.

 

Think the Fury mech' was originally intended for Tanks.  But we got brutes instead.  🙂

 

It's the Superman vs Hulk argument.  They both do great damage.  But that comparison doesn't translate into the CoH game.  One IS.  The other builds to IS.

 

That's my design hint to take tanks to the next level.  Damage wise.  Then...the sea change of players to tanks would happen.  

 

Azrael.

 

PS.  My top tanker tip is to play in a duo with a like minded friend.  Then you will see the appeal of the tanker.  But in a post incarnate world of uber builds and penalty less IO sets....the tanker has a fight on his hands.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Tath99]

On 5/17/2020 at 7:10 PM, Golden Azrael said:

PS.  My top tanker tip is to play in a duo with a like minded friend.  Then you will see the appeal of the tanker.  But in a post incarnate world of uber builds and penalty less IO sets....the tanker has a fight on his hands.

Tanker + Blaster is the obvious choice.

Tanker + Defender is the premier choice however:  Tanker defends Defender.  Defender bolsters Tanker.  Tanker is elevated.  Defender is elevated.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Tath99

[Sovera]

12 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Tanker + Blaster is the obvious choice.

Tanker + Defender is the premier choice however:  Tanker defends Defender.  Defender bolsters Tanker.  Tanker is elevated.  Defender is elevated.

 

 

I'm going to say Tanker + Blaster. A Tanker is probably able to handle themselves just fine. Buffs are cool, but Aim + BU + AoEs killing most of the spawn negates the need for buffs since stuff is dead, and dead stuff does not hit back.

[Hyperstrike]

1: Grab yourself a copy of Mids.  It is literally the ONLY way to share builds and to get an idea of what one can do.
2: You can look around the Tanker forums for  interested builds.
3: Just an FYI, if you're looking for Invuln/ANYTHING, I've pre-built a fairly tough Invuln framework build for not only Tanks, but Brutes, Scrappers and Sentinels.  The thread can be found here:
 

 

4: As others have said, in general you want to minimize the number of slots you HAVE TO dedicate to your armors.  Mainly because
 

A: It steals slots that can be used in attacks, heals, etc.

B: Beyond 2 common IOs, you run face-first into Diminishing Returns.  Anything beyond 3 Defense/Resist are a waste of slots.  And while EndRedux CAN help static-state Endurance consumption, MOST of your End consumption comes from your attacks.

C: The only reasons you want to fully slot an Armor that way are:
 

i: You need a specific set bonus

ii: You've got an Armor like Granite, that takes both Defense AND Resist

iii: You're going to be dropping uniques or status protections in.

 

 

[Tath99]

I'm going to say Tanker + Blaster. A Tanker is probably able to handle themselves just fine. Buffs are cool, but Aim + BU + AoEs killing most of the spawn negates the need for buffs since stuff is dead, and dead stuff does not hit back.

 

You're not wrong when facing *a* singular spawn on X difficulty.

A good Tank + Defender can push *multiple spawns* on X+ difficulties.

 

It is my own preferred playstyle with my duo friend to always seek to push the envelope in interesting ways.  Tanker sets historically have their own strengths / weaknesses and finding a player-partner who helps overcome them is rewarding.  

 

Old-school SO-only City of Heroes was fun because it allowed teamwork to shine.  Don't get too hung up on each Tanker's foibles.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Tath99

[Hyperstrike]

12 hours ago, Tath99 said:

 

 

 

You're not wrong when facing *a* singular spawn on X difficulty.

A good Tank + Defender can push *multiple spawns* on X+ difficulties.

 

 

 

 

A great tank can have two full sets of mobs on him, with someone wrapped around his head and trying to stab out his eye, and wonder when the fight is gonna start...

Edited May 21, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[Golden Azrael]

18 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Tanker + Blaster is the obvious choice.

Tanker + Defender is the premier choice however:  Tanker defends Defender.  Defender bolsters Tanker.  Tanker is elevated.  Defender is elevated.

 

 

The Defender option is the more interesting, of course.

 

It offers the synergy to allow both to thrive.  Buff the tank to take even more aggro and the the tank offers protection in turn to allow the defender to offend.  Synergistic.  Bringing out the potential in each other.

 

Where as the obvious choice just sees the eg. fire blaster vaporizing the mobs in seconds with the tank being little more than the 'get' aggro guy or 'door stop.'

 

I think Tank and Defender.  You can get lots of interesting combinations.  Using the art of buff and debuff...which is where the CoH game shines.

 

It depends on whether damage throughput vs interesting gameplay is the measure of fun.

 

I have an elec/elec/elec domi.  It doesn't vaporise mobs...but boy...it ties all comers in knots, end drains them and pulls their legs of their spiders.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

1 hour ago, Tath99 said:

 

 

 

You're not wrong when facing *a* singular spawn on X difficulty.

A good Tank + Defender can push *multiple spawns* on X+ difficulties.

 

It is my own preferred playstyle with my duo friend to always seek to push the envelope in interesting ways.  Tanker sets historically have their own strengths / weaknesses and finding a player-partner who helps overcome them is rewarding.  

 

Old-school SO-only City of Heroes was fun because it allowed teamwork to shine.  Don't get too hung up on each Tanker's foibles.

 

 

 

 

An intune DUO Partner is the *only* way to truly travel in COH.  And yes.  To push the envelop in interesting ways in combat and builds and thus combat and tactics once more.  Ebb and flow of the dance of power and understanding to achieve more power to push the level of challenge.  To push the glass ceiling on those weaknesses.

 

I full agree with your latter sentiment.

 

As to anyone being 'nervous' as a tank.  Don't be.  Play on the 1-8 levels by yourself and learn your trade in Atlas then the Hollows.  Learn how to take on 1 mob, then 2 then 3 mobs...then a group of 5-8 etc.  Once you can do the Hollows you're on your way.

 

Your jaw will tell you if you're getting it right.

 

Practice pulling them around...to corners...to reduce the incoming damage.  Lots of tactics to learn.  As you grow in power you can pull one mob into another mob.  etc.  You're a tough guy.  You can handle it.

 

Get to L22 with SOs in your Stamina, def' and attacks along with the recent tank patch...you'll be on your way to god hood.  With a boost in stamina, def', res' and damage power.

 

Invul/SS would be a decent starting tank to get you going.  With the Uber Rage in your SS set later on.

 

Though any tank would do.

 

Azrael.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Pleonast]

5 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

An intune DUO Partner is the *only* way to truly travel in COH.  And yes.  To push the envelop in interesting ways in combat and builds and thus combat and tactics once more.  Ebb and flow of the dance of power and understanding to achieve more power to push the level of challenge.  To push the glass ceiling on those weaknesses.

So true. Two-player teams are the best teams.

[LiquidBandage]

  

On 5/11/2020 at 1:05 AM, Hardboiled Hero said:

Now the big questions:

• What are the good and bad points of each primary as it concerns Tankers?
• What are the good and bad points of each secondary as they apply to tankers?
• What primary/secondary pairings are particularly good for Tankers (or for which type of content)?
• What Primary/Secondary pairing are particularly bad for Tankers (or for what type of content)?
• Any other thoughts or concerns you have that might be helpful to new Tankers?

But with Tankers I feel like you're either alive and contributing, or your dead an not contributing. I don't feel there's a middle ground of "well I might not be the most useful tank, but I'm good enough."

There is no good way to answer the "good/bad points of each primary" without going in depth into each set. I would suggest steering clear of Stone Armor and Dark Armor for your first Tank. Dark is heavy on the toggles and it takes a while to massage it into a solid balance of being able to tank and punch things. Stone skews heavily on theme and if you can't handle decreased mobility (making Teleport almost a necessity) and having your character look like a giant rock-beast, you will want to save the set for another time. All primary sets have some combination of DEFENSE and RESISTANCE, the important part is to learn where the holes exist. If you have a set that skews heavily into Defense (like Ice Armor), understand that there will be times where damage just leaks through and you have to manage it (get out of line of sight, hope a teammate will stop gap for you, etc). Some sets like Invulnerability have Taunt auras while others like Ice Armor have a Debuff aura that taunts while others like Dark Armor have a damage aura that relies on doing damage to taunt. 

 

When it comes to secondaries, for the most part it comes down to preference (theme/concept). There are always outliers where a power description sounds good but in practice it is a total turd (see Proton Sweep from Radiation Melee).

 

The biggest shift in thought will come when you build a character for sustained engagements. That means using things like Endurance Reduction for attacks so you can attack and not have your toggles fall off. That also means having something like Focused Accuracy instead of a Build Up power. One thing I would suggest is to have the Combat Abilities window up (Damage Resistance tab) in a corner of your window while you play so you see how other buffs/powers affect your survivability. Plus it lets you understand which situations allow you to hit the caps so you can better understand when you might be vulnerable and when you can faceroll. 

 

Another point to learn as a Tank is pacing. Some tanks just blaze through doors and let the team manage everything behind you and that can work. Sometimes it can benefit the group (especially prior to 50) to allow a Tank to taunt a group out of a room into a hallway/corner. Some rooms are just designed to be kill zones if the team aggros multiple groups, then you just have chaos on your hands. Then there are villain groups like Devouring Earth that spawn a widget at their feet when they get triggered. If you taunt them away, they "poop" where they are standing then run to where you are and you don't have to deal with the compounding effects of those spawns. Now, if you have a team that buzzsaws through things like that anyways, a pull like that won't make any difference. 

 

Another thing that will help is to identify problematic mobs of most villain groups. If you have a secondary that does some sort of limited CC (like Knockdown or disorient), try to target the problematic mob early and hit it. If you have smart teammates they will do the same. So a Sapper gets knocked down asap. Or a Crey Engineer you want to hit asap to prevent him from deploying the Forcefield. Things like that. And in that vein, you will also learn which mobs have cone attacks, try to position yourself so when they unleash the cone it is directed away from the rest of the team. 

 

Another thing that helps is to have a two attack rhythm. You run in, target something, taunt, attack something near you, then AoE the mobs that ran in from your taunt. Then take a moment to look around, did something slip by (fire off a ranged attack at it)? Are you in danger of butt pulling another group (maybe reposition yourself)? If things are under control, start thinking about the next pull (look at the map, pan your camera, etc). If the mobs are still pretty healthy, keep pounding away, switching up targets to spread the Gauntlet love. Take a moment to look at your team, are they taking hits? If so, reposition to help out. If you have an over-eager Super that likes to run ahead, let them (they can handle it on their own or they can die on their own, it is not your responsibility to save people from themselves). 

 

Most of the time you can set the pace and through the buffs of your teammates you can be successful. If you do run into problems, take a moment to pull back and limit the chaos. Tell people to fall back or designate a spot where you will pull to so they can AoE effectively, etc. Just continuing to run in to the same angry crowd one & two at a time will just end in misery. 

 

And to address the "I might not be the most useful tank, but I'm good enough" comment: That is the fallacy that Tanks everywhere have built up. We have seen the unkillable gods that wade through everything, but take a closer look at what they just waded through. The truth is all Tanks are just good enough because there are always holes. It is the team that makes a tank unkillable. Understanding the limitations of your powersets and build is what will bring you success. Observing what your teammates do to make tanking easier should be recognized too. Does someone cast a Spirit Ward (absorb) on you before you leap in and pull? Do they keep buffs up on you to limit your weaknesses? Does the sneaky Devices Blaster swoop in as you pull and Smoke the adjacent group to prevent a butt-pull? Does a teammate prioritize healing you over getting another shot in on a mob that some Blaster is gonna destroy anyways? Things like that. 

 

As you level you aren't going to feel unkillable, but at a certain point you will get a key power or reach the right equilibrium and it will click. Then you will delve into set bonuses an Incarnates and the like and you will creep closer to that unkillable ideal. 

 

For suggestions on the first go around on tank powersets: 

Invulnerability is a great starting point. It provides a mix of resistance and defense and you will feel unstoppable most of the time. For secondaries, Super Strength is a classic that does most of the things you would want. If you are ok with the sound effects, I would recommend Stone Melee. It has four great single target attacks, a PBAoE and a targeted CC. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by LiquidBandage

[drbuzzard]

On 5/11/2020 at 6:11 AM, josh1622 said:

Depending on how you're building it can be beneficial to minimize slots in your resistance toggles.  Some armor sets have an easier time capping resistances and don't need as many resistance set bonuses.  On those builds I'll just throw 2 50+5 resistance IOs in toggles if there are better bonuses to slot elsewhere.

 

On 5/11/2020 at 2:05 AM, Hardboiled Hero said:

  Now the big questions:

 

  What are the good and bad points of each primary as it concerns Tankers?

This requires a huge guide to answer. It's not really within the scope of a fast reply. A few quick points would be stone armor is weak until granite, then indestructible. It's also a major pain to play (got one to 50 back on live, won't do it again). I would suggest not making one because most people won't want the pain. You can get close enough in durability using IOs and other primaries. 

 

Dark armor, is an odd duck which is complicated to play and work with. It can be made plenty durable, but you don't think about it the way you do with other tanks. 

 

On 5/11/2020 at 2:05 AM, Hardboiled Hero said:

 

 What are the good and bad points of each secondary as they apply to tankers?

 

This is also quite complicated, and also very subject to individual taste. 

 

On 5/11/2020 at 2:05 AM, Hardboiled Hero said:

 

What primary/secondary pairings are particularly good for Tankers (or for which type of content)?

 

I've been pretty impressed with how SD/DM worked out, though it is a complicated build, the ability to get to perma soul drain coupled with Against All Odds means you run with a huge damage bonus all the time. It's really quite impressive. 

 

On 5/11/2020 at 2:05 AM, Hardboiled Hero said:

 

What Primary/Secondary pairing are particularly bad for Tankers (or for what type of content)?

 

The current rage crash from super strength is rather unhappy with defense based sets like SR, SD, or Ice. 

 

On 5/11/2020 at 2:05 AM, Hardboiled Hero said:

  Any other thoughts or concerns you have that might be helpful to new Tankers?

 

 

 

One bad technique I see all too often in tankers is one who close to taunt range of a group of enemies, taunts them, then runs into the crowd. All this does is pull ranged attacks to yourself as you close. There's no benefit. Every tanker primary has an aggro aura one way or another. Merely moving into the crowd will taunt them if you just stand there. Hold onto the taunt for ones which are outside of your aura (as in ones which start moving away). 

 

Also, people need to stop herding. In a game of 17 maximum aggro cap, there is no reason for herding at all (sure, if you want, group up the single spawn, but that's not really herding). If you herd two groups together past the 17 limit it just means your team will be pulling that aggro instead of you. Sure, some builds can handle it, but don't count on that on PUGs.