Energy Melee - Does not need

[Troo]

Energy Melee - Does not need more multi-target attacks (Aura, Cones, AoE, etc).

Energy Melee - Does not need a combo system or mechanic.

Energy Melee - Does not need to be re-envisioned.

 

A single target AT on SOs that can put out the same amount of damage as a proc'd out incarnate, also not needed.

 

I am getting a little nervous about the 'update' turning into changes or more.

On 3/14/2020 at 9:44 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Titan Weapons will see significant adjustments in Page 6. It was going to happen on Page 5 but we want those changes to come at the same time as the update for Energy Melee and another round of Dark Melee buffs.

 

My ask has always been singular: Revert the Energy Transfer nerf. Simple and quick.

[Zeraphia]

I enjoy your posts, and I agree that I don't think it should be re-envisioned into something new entirely, I do think a lot of its restrictions could be lifted as well (specifically on Stalkers, it was "broken" for how hard it could force it to hit with Hide, but now that GPB and Devastating Blow exist on Stalkers, it's hard not to justify Stalker's now getting their virtue.) 

 

I'm not against a combo system done correctly and not taking precedent over the core buffs of the set mechanically. 

 

ET's animation killed this set in so many ways, I 100% agree with you there, it would be one of the most significant impacts to the set becoming viable, I also think Total Focus could get an animation time cut (on Dom's it got cut a bit and it works beautifully).

 

The funny thing is, as many posters such as @M3zpoint out, even IF it was changed back, it wouldn't likely overthrow Psi Melee in PvP either, just would be another viable melee set in PvP. 

[Blastit]

Conceptually, Energy Melee doesn't need any kind of combo system. Doing actual combo moves with fists and swords makes sense, using tidal power with water blasts works well enough, but there's nothing about channeling energy into your fists that really needs a combo system. If there was ever a set that could do with a proper charge mechanic, so your attack got bigger and more taxing the longer you held in the button, then this would be it. But I'm not sure that's feasible here.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Blastit

[blayzemaster]

I would say it certainly needs an AoE attack on Stalkers...

[Zeraphia]

8 minutes ago, blayzemaster said:

I would say it certainly needs an AoE attack on Stalkers...

This I agree with, I think the Whirling Hands could replace the "Stun" power, but I'm not sure how everyone else feels about this.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Zeraphia

[macskull]

I'm inclined to think it's going to get the Energy Assault treatment in some form, but that doesn't particularly help Stalkers so... yeah, Stun should probably be modified to work more like Whirling Hands on Stalkers.

[BrandX]

If Stun was replaced by Whirling Hands, I would've made an Energy Melee Stalker before I went Ice Melee.  The animation I love and just enough AOE for me (maybe not others).

 

As for Energy Melee, while I could live with just speeding up Total Focus and Energy Transfer, I would, as I've suggested before, replace them with Crushing Uppercut and Spinning Strike (keep it single target) animations for faster animations and leave the damage alone.

 

Also, it just gives it some nice newer animations.

 

One could speed up the old ones to those animation speeds and give some animation options too!

 

Lastly, port it to Scrappers!  Some of us don't want to play a Brute!

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

Energy Melee - Does not need more multi-target attacks (Aura, Cones, AoE, etc).

Energy Melee - Does not need a combo system or mechanic.

Energy Melee - Does not need to be re-envisioned.

 

A single target AT on SOs that can put out the same amount of damage as a proc'd out incarnate, also not needed.

 

I am getting a little nervous about the 'update' turning into changes or more.

 

My ask has always been singular: Revert the Energy Transfer nerf. Simple and quick.

Agreed. Reverting the ET nerf is the ONLY thing the set needs. I also wouldn't complain if they gave Whirling Hands a range buff.

[Naraka]

6 hours ago, Troo said:

Energy Melee - Does not need more multi-target attacks (Aura, Cones, AoE, etc).

Energy Melee - Does not need a combo system or mechanic.

Energy Melee - Does not need to be re-envisioned.

 

A single target AT on SOs that can put out the same amount of damage as a proc'd out incarnate, also not needed.

 

I am getting a little nervous about the 'update' turning into changes or more.

 

My ask has always been singular: Revert the Energy Transfer nerf. Simple and quick.

I personally didn't want Shadow Maul to be a quick no-thought AoE cone but we can't all get what we want.

 

Furthermore, it's being pushed for more AoE DPS too with very little tactical consideration besides twink out your build like always.

 

I'll continue to argue not to make Dark Consumption a near-nuke PBAoE so long as your build is twinked (having it so you needed to build a bit more modestly for END so you get more damage with lower END would have been a better balancing point than just nerfing the damage) but I have a feeling my voice is in the minority.

 

That being said, I think the "Charged" system would fit great into EM just like Energy Assault.  You might not like it but we can't all get what we want.

 

Have you played Energy Assault?  It's pretty fun.

[Infinitum]

50 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I'll continue to argue not to make Dark Consumption a near-nuke PBAoE so long as your build is twinked (having it so you needed to build a bit more modestly for END so you get more damage with lower END would have been a better balancing point than just nerfing the damage) but I have a feeling my voice is in the minority.

If they just decreased DCs recharge slightly and put it more in line with shield charge recharge that would be all the set needed, maybe a slight increase in DCs damage but not much if any.  Itsngood either way - speaking from a tank perspective.

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, BrandX said:

I would, as I've suggested before, replace them with Crushing Uppercut and Spinning Strike (keep it single target) animations for faster animations and leave the damage alone.

Those animations don't fit the set, I agree with front loading ETs damage and shortening the animation but the old animation was perfect for it. Its basically chain inductions animation now from elec melee.

 

It should be a simple fix to try just port over the animation from Elec melees chain induction.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Infinitum

[BrandX]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Those animations don't fit the set, I agree with front loading ETs damage and shortening the animation but the old animation was perfect for it. Its basically chain inductions animation now from elec melee.

 

I'd disagree on the animations, but I also did say, give it some animation choices as well.  Saying that, one may as well say, Martial Arts new animations (from when CoH was live) didn't fit the set.

 

I'd say ET's change didn't fit the set, but there it went and got that longer uglier animation.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I'd disagree on the animations, but I also did say, give it some animation choices as well.  Saying that, one may as well say, Martial Arts new animations (from when CoH was live) didn't fit the set.

 

I'd say ET's change didn't fit the set, but there it went and got that longer uglier animation.

Crushing uppercut is a brawler strike it doesnt look like you are transferring anything.  Not to mention the power is in your hands not your feet - thats why spinning strike wouldn't work.

 

If you did that you may as well call it SJ 2.0

Edited May 18, 2020 by Infinitum

[BrandX]

30 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Crushing uppercut is a brawler strike it doesnt look like you are transferring anything.  Not to mention the power is in your hands not your feet - thats why spinning strike wouldn't work.

 

If you did that you may as well call it SJ 2.0

 

The power set isn't called Energy Fists, it's called Energy Melee.  Also, who says the energy aspect needs to be in the feet?  It's a Energy and Smashing damage attack.  Fist attack gives the energy damage and the kick gives smashing damage.

 

Original ET animation didn't look like you were transferring anything.  It was called transfer because it took life from you to use.

[Infinitum]

29 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

The power set isn't called Energy Fists, it's called Energy Melee.  Also, who says the energy aspect needs to be in the feet?  It's a Energy and Smashing damage attack.  Fist attack gives the energy damage and the kick gives smashing damage.

 

Original ET animation didn't look like you were transferring anything.  It was called transfer because it took life from you to use.

Look, I'm a longtime EM purist.  And the pom poms of death is how we know it. You can argue all you want but glowing energy fists is how it's known and how we all loved it.

 

And yeah if you go back and think about it - ET - your arm surged forward not really a punch like a melee punch but more like a swift touch of death maneuver, and for a brief moment it hung and glowed but all very fast.  It was a super swift transfer of energy that destroyed whatever it impacted.

 

It wasn't a shoryukin uppercut from street fighter - that will never fit with the memory of ET.  Sorry, hard pass. Again... That's SJ 2.0

 

Whirling hands is a beautiful attack, not the most powerful, so is spinning strike - but each has its place and there shouldn't be any crossover. 

 

You can give SJ glowing fist auras if that's all you are looking for honestly, but it doesn't nor ever will fit with classic EM.

[Troo]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

I'm inclined to think it's going to get the Energy Assault treatment in some form..

Yep this is a concern.

 

7 hours ago, BrandX said:

One could speed up the old ones to those animation speeds and give some animation options too!

Seems like the simple, give folks what they want without breaking the game option.

 

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

I personally didn't want Shadow Maul to be a quick no-thought AoE cone but we can't all get what we want.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your reply. Maybe I missed something from a different topic.

That said, Energy Melee is definitely not Energy Assault.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Troo

[Solarverse]

Why is it I always like a game much more when it first comes out...before the animation changes, before the mechanic changes, before things get all crazy. I stopped playing Age of Conan when they took away the Necromancer's buff powers that looked wicked cool. It was an awesome animation. Then, one day, I log in and it's gone. Not nerfed, but....gone. It was the same with SWTOR, one day I go to use a Lightsaber attack ability and suddenly, the animation I loved most was turned in to a simplistic stiff attack instead of the fancy move it once was. If I leave games over this, I am sure other people do as well. It's one thing if the animations are universally hated (cough cough, Psionic Melee *although the last hard hitting single target attack was nice*), I can see changing the animations to be a bit flashier and less stiff, but changing them just because, and despite the outcries to not change it...I'll never understand that.

 

I remember the day ET got a nerf...I remember it well. I ran with a guy on Protector server who was pretty well known and very well liked on that server. They changed the animation of ET and suddenly, he was gone. He expressed how much he hated the change, realized it wasn't reverting back and left the game. I still remember him after all these years and actually miss the guy. He wasn't the only one either. I came close myself, since my main Tank was an Invuln/Energy. I HATED the new ET animation. It was absolutely horrible. Obviously I did not quit, but my main Tank got shelved and I did what everyone else did, Invuln/Super Strength. With Energy Melee I felt like I didn't follow some crowd of players who flocked to Super Strength. After the nerf though, I didn't see how I had much choice. It was all that was left that fit my character thematically.

 

ET I think was arguablly one of the biggest mistakes the OG Devs ever made to a power, at least in my mind the most popular nerf for the wrong reasons...second only to the infamous Toggle IH to Click IH Nerf.

 

Nerf abilities if you want to, but change the animations....that's a huge no no in my book unless it is pretty obvious the vast majority hates the animations. And I don't mean 45% vs 55%, I mean more like 25% vs 75% majority. Oh lookie there...once again the ET nerf memory has caused me to rant yet again. I gotta start catching myself sooner!

Edited May 18, 2020 by Solarverse

[Razor Cure]

ET was awful. I actually dont mind the animation..as itself. Just after the change, I was playing my Bane Spider, and doing the special veat story arc. Came up against BaB's (who uses energy melee) and he used that on me. I saw it coming 5 days early, of course, but it was SO cool I jsut stood there. ANd died. lol. It felt totally RIGHT that this super powerful sig hero should have a super fancy attack, that really got across just HOW strong he was.

Then..I logged my Em brute (at the time, my fav toon) and after using ET once, I never played it again.

[Troo]

It's not that the animation is so stinking bad, it's the corpse blasting and wasted endurance.

I might actually be okay if the animation was reversed: quick hit with damage applied up front and then stand there showing off the fists in a 'look what I did' fashion. No, that's stupid. Just change it back.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your reply. Maybe I missed something from a different topic.

That said, Energy Melee is definitely not Energy Assault.

Mainly saying that changes to Dark Melee that were going through, I didn't want those particular changes (I'd have been fine with *just* a slight widening/lengthening to Shadow Maul but then they went and cut the damage and increased the recharge AND made it a super wide cone).  It's not as thrilling to line up anymore, it doesn't sync up with the punching audio, and because I enjoyed the ORA ORA ORA ORA of the animation, shortening it to ORA ORA is a downgrade.

 

But I'm probably in the minority there.  Shadow Maul is forever changed.  Just saying the Charge mechanic might not be what you want but maybe it will come along with other positive changes like shortening ET and TF animations too.

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

If they just decreased DCs recharge slightly and put it more in line with shield charge recharge that would be all the set needed, maybe a slight increase in DCs damage but not much if any.  Itsngood either way - speaking from a tank perspective.

Rather than a bump in damage, I'd take a bump in radius + a moderate -ToHit debuff (like -8%) for 20sec.

 

Overall though, I think the problem is people have different goals when making suggestions and leaving feedback.  To me, DM has always been a utility knife set with various effective synergies like -ToHit with your defense or Soul Drain and other powerful AoEs or your armor and its heal.  Some want it to be a more premiere DPS set up there with Street Justice or the other newer sets.  

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Why is it I always like a game much more when it first comes out...before the animation changes, before the mechanic changes, before things get all crazy. I stopped playing Age of Conan when they took away the Necromancer's buff powers that looked wicked cool. It was an awesome animation. Then, one day, I log in and it's gone. Not nerfed, but....gone. It was the same with SWTOR, one day I go to use a Lightsaber attack ability and suddenly, the animation I loved most was turned in to a simplistic stiff attack instead of the fancy move it once was. If I leave games over this, I am sure other people do as well. It's one thing if the animations are universally hated (cough cough, Psionic Melee *although the last hard hitting single target attack was nice*), I can see changing the animations to be a bit flashier and less stiff, but changing them just because, and despite the outcries to not change it...I'll never understand that.

 

I remember the day ET got a nerf...I remember it well. I ran with a guy on Protector server who was pretty well known and very well liked on that server. They changed the animation of ET and suddenly, he was gone. He expressed how much he hated the change, realized it wasn't reverting back and left the game. I still remember him after all these years and actually miss the guy. He wasn't the only one either. I came close myself, since my main Tank was an Invuln/Energy. I HATED the new ET animation. It was absolutely horrible. Obviously I did not quit, but my main Tank got shelved and I did what everyone else did, Invuln/Super Strength. With Energy Melee I felt like I didn't follow some crowd of players who flocked to Super Strength. After the nerf though, I didn't see how I had much choice. It was all that was left that fit my character thematically.

 

ET I think was arguablly one of the biggest mistakes the OG Devs ever made to a power, at least in my mind the most popular nerf for the wrong reasons...second only to the infamous Toggle IH to Click IH Nerf.

 

Nerf abilities if you want to, but change the animations....that's a huge no no in my book unless it is pretty obvious the vast majority hates the animations. And I don't mean 45% vs 55%, I mean more like 25% vs 75% majority. Oh lookie there...once again the ET nerf memory has caused me to rant yet again. I gotta start catching myself sooner!

Agree 100% with everything.  I took a break myself after the change because it ruined my favorite and main thing i loved about the game.  I only had 3 lvl 50s at the time including the Invul EM tank i mained.  I literally had all my eggs in one basket and they dumped them all out on the sidewalk with that change.

 

I left the game for about 2 years.  Came back in time to get to love the game again and try new ATs - to me - only to have the game shutter on us.

 

That change was definately the worse nerf ever put on a melee set, i wouldnt say worse ever because cough regen cough.   lol

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Look, I'm a longtime EM purist.  And the pom poms of death is how we know it. You can argue all you want but glowing energy fists is how it's known and how we all loved it.

 

And yeah if you go back and think about it - ET - your arm surged forward not really a punch like a melee punch but more like a swift touch of death maneuver, and for a brief moment it hung and glowed but all very fast.  It was a super swift transfer of energy that destroyed whatever it impacted.

 

It wasn't a shoryukin uppercut from street fighter - that will never fit with the memory of ET.  Sorry, hard pass. Again... That's SJ 2.0

 

Whirling hands is a beautiful attack, not the most powerful, so is spinning strike - but each has its place and there shouldn't be any crossover. 

 

You can give SJ glowing fist auras if that's all you are looking for honestly, but it doesn't nor ever will fit with classic EM.

 

You're not the only one who played Energy Melee back on live (you know, because I did too) and my idea could easily be implemented as alternate animations for attacks.  Also, it didn't feel like a touch of death, it felt like a quick palm strike.

 

However, as I think on it though, I'd also like to see Barrage get improved so it's equal to or just better than Energy Punch.  I love it's animation of a one two punch.

 

And no, one can't just give SJ glowing fists aura, as their is no aura that matched Energy Melee's pom poms 😛  Also, it's not about making it SJ 2.0.  It's about giving the set some updated, fancier moves.

[Nanolathe]

As a counterpoint; I couldn't stand playing a Claws/ character for ages, until the abysmal "wild flailing" animation was changed. Sometimes animation changes are something that opens up a powerset to someone that previously wouldn't touch it.

Claws is now my favourite melee set.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

You're not the only one who played Energy Melee back on live (you know, because I did too) and my idea could easily be implemented as alternate animations for attacks.  Also, it didn't feel like a touch of death, it felt like a quick palm strike.

 

However, as I think on it though, I'd also like to see Barrage get improved so it's equal to or just better than Energy Punch.  I love it's animation of a one two punch.

 

And no, one can't just give SJ glowing fists aura, as their is no aura that matched Energy Melee's pom poms 😛  Also, it's not about making it SJ 2.0.  It's about giving the set some updated, fancier moves.

I agree it needs animation changes, but disagree hard that it needs SJ animations. 

 

They just don't fit what the set did/claims to do.

[ShardWarrior]

20 hours ago, Troo said:

Energy Melee - Does not need more multi-target attacks (Aura, Cones, AoE, etc).

Energy Melee - Does not need a combo system or mechanic.

Energy Melee - Does not need to be re-envisioned.

 

A single target AT on SOs that can put out the same amount of damage as a proc'd out incarnate, also not needed.

Could not agree more.