Regeneration Issues

[Snowdaze]

98% o Enemies don't have -regen. So I'm really failing to see how this is going to make peoples lives much better. But I already made the concession that Reconstruction could use some -regen resist and a slightly lower recharge time.

 

Also my regen is nigh unstoppable, and that is without Instant Healing running w/ IH Regen skyrockets to 1806% :

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Snowdaze

[XaoGarrent]

I'm just here to post some bog standard support of IH being a toggle again in some fashion, Regen, Absorb or otherwise.

 

...Oh, and rain on the parade of the usual fallacy that gets posted involving Regen.

6 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

Regen is popular enough leave it the "F" ALONE!

 

PROOF:
 

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

 

Ciao.

[Snowdaze]

8 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I'm just here to post some bog standard support of IH being a toggle again in some fashion, Regen, Absorb or otherwise.

 

...Oh, and rain on the parade of the usual fallacy that gets posted involving Regen.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

 

Ciao.

Once again someone who didn't read the VERY FIRST SENTENCE of the Thread! I was using evidence to invalidate something, not validate anything. I'd say your fallacy is https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman, however you didnt actually make an argument, you were just attacking mine.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Snowdaze
clarification

[XaoGarrent]

11 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Once again someone who didn't read the VERY FIRST SENTENCE of the Thread! I was using evidence to invalidate something, not validate anything. I'd say your fallacy is https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman, however you didnt actually make an argument, you were just attacking mine.

I did not strawman you, your "evidence" was an argumentum ad populum fallacy, the most bog standard form there is in fact. Your case of fallacious reasoning couldn't be any more cut and dry, you could use your post as an ideal example of it. You didn't even attempt to imply there was deeper reasoning for the statistic.

Also, what the OP posted has no bearing on your failings. Especially as there's more than one metric for popularity. Which is precisely one of many reasons why your line of argumentation is fallacious all on its own merits.

Edited May 20, 2020 by XaoGarrent

[Snowdaze]

5 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I did not strawman you, your "evidence" was an argumentum ad populum fallacy, the most bog standard form there is in fact. Your case of fallacious reasoning couldn't be any more cut and dry, you could use your post as an ideal example of it.

My post you are criticizing has nothing to do with my stance on the status of Regen. It was a criticism for the OP's choice on how he was claiming "As you know Regen is unpopular to play in the high end game for anything but a sentinel." My Opinion, which stands on it's own, is that regen by in large is fine, and people should just leave it alone. There are likely just as many people who think it needs nerfs as there are that think it needs buffs.

[XaoGarrent]

1 minute ago, Snowdaze said:

My post you are criticizing has nothing to do with my stance on the status of Regen. It was a criticism for the OP's choice on how he was claiming "As you know Regen is unpopular to play in the high end game for anything but a sentinel." My Opinion, which stands on it's own, is that regen by in large is fine, and people should just leave it alone. There are likely just as many people who think it needs nerfs as there are that think it needs buffs.

You can say all this, but it doesn't make it true.

[Snowdaze]

Just now, XaoGarrent said:

You can say all this, but it doesn't make it true.

Thanks, for not actually contributing anything constructive to this thread. I'm not sure if you are missing my point or just trying to troll me.

[Monos King]

Uhhhh...so regen is fine. It's heals are immune to -heal, so you've got that safety net going already. Let's not even talk about PvP where it's flagrantly overpowered. I'm not opposed to anything yet but I can't see why it needs anything else. I always thought regen res was for sets that didn't already have insane regen and was an alternative; you know give them a situational one up over the similar set. Kind of like how dependent on the situation, having high slow res is superior to high recharge. Different mechanics.

 

Regen (despite it's name) is a heal set, and the heal armor champion by far. Again, it is immune to -heal. Sentinel regen is even more crazy. I don't know why anyone is treating it like it's lacking; it has no res or def speciality in exchange for great regen and very strong and quick heals. It's not gonna cap anything because that's not its thing.

Edit: Nevermind I see some reasons it needs updating.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Monos King

[XaoGarrent]

9 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Thanks, for not actually contributing anything constructive to this thread. I'm not sure if you are missing my point or just trying to troll me.

This is really priceless considering the whole reason I made my post was because of the very thing you're accusing me of. Now you're just calling people trolls, you've posted almost nothing but useless noise since you showed up in this thread. Projection is considered an informal fallacy, by the way, and frankly it's just a really bad look.

 

The OP provided more than just a mention of popularity, you opened in this thread by arguing only that. Essentially perpetrating a fallacy that they managed to largely side step by providing enough context to make it not only obvious they weren't arguing from a place of simple popularity, but their metric of popularity doesn't even seem to be the same one you're attempting to jam into this conversation. There's implicit reasoning here that you're just completely ignoring.

 

It would be nice if they would lay that out in detail, but the thing you're not getting here is that they made a wider argument, which in itself can be argued, in addition to what seems to be implied by the wider argument. Which is that Regen's lack of popularity, which is implied by their post to not be absolute usage metric, but rather a rating of its effectiveness, is hampered by a lack of resistance to debuffs. Which is frankly a provable problem with the set, especially given its one trick nature, as previously mentioned.

 

There's a great deal of clarification implied, and not just that, it logically checks out. Could there be something deeper going on? Is there more to say on the subject? Sure.

 

But your opening post, in contrast, is entirely shallow, containing nothing but a single fallacy, with no implications of a deeper argument. There's a ton of explicit and implicit reasoning that can be argued for or against in the OP, there is none in your response. The only way to respond to you constructively is to point out the fallacious nature of your response, because that's factually all you presented. Well, that and a bunch of doubling down.

[ShardWarrior]

7 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I did not strawman you, your "evidence" was an argumentum ad populum fallacy, the most bog standard form there is in fact. Your case of fallacious reasoning couldn't be any more cut and dry, you could use your post as an ideal example of it. You didn't even attempt to imply there was deeper reasoning for the statistic.

 

No offense meant to you, but you are very much misunderstanding and misinterpreting what @Snowdaze posted.  The OP made the claim implying that Regen is unpopular outside Sentinels.  @Snowdaze linked to actual data from the Homecoming team showing that Regen is also very popular among Scrappers.  This was done to show the OP is incorrect in their opening statement as the evidence clearly shows.  It was not a claim about Regen being popular so therefore it must be good.

 

[XaoGarrent]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

No offense meant to you, but you are very much misunderstanding and misinterpreting what @Snowdaze posted.  The OP made the claim implying that Regen is unpopular outside Sentinels.  @Snowdaze linked to actual data from the Homecoming team showing that Regen is also very popular among Scrappers.  This was done to show the OP is incorrect in their opening statement as the evidence clearly shows.  It was not a claim about Regen being popular so therefore it must be good.

 

I could care less about offense, and you are very much misunderstanding and misinterpreting what you claim I am. I perfectly well understand what's been said, and I went through it in no small detail. Don't like it, too bad. Context matters, you ignoring it doesn't magically make it go away.

 

You joining in the projection fest does not make you or Snowdaze any more correct.

[Zepp]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

No offense meant to you, but you are very much misunderstanding and misinterpreting what @Snowdaze posted.  The OP made the claim implying that Regen is unpopular outside Sentinels.  @Snowdaze linked to actual data from the Homecoming team showing that Regen is also very popular among Scrappers.  This was done to show the OP is incorrect in their opening statement as the evidence clearly shows.  It was not a claim about Regen being popular so therefore it must be good.

Good point, but it does not disprove any of the following premises. So, congratulations on disproving the least important portion of the post.

[ShardWarrior]

13 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

I'm of the opinion that regen is single-handedly the most extreme case of either "very good!" or "very poor" in performance...

 

It really relies on team/party buffs in group settings to really push itself to be "tanky" in the sense that other sets are. It's not that IO's and incarnates can't push it, it's more so it just lacks the tools to directly mitigate damage that others give (mitigating the damage before it happens or as it happens is just way more powerful than trying to "recover quickly" from it.) Given Regen's tools, it makes for a very poor set in solo play comparatively to others against hard-hitting enemy groups.

 

But with MoG it becomes a "toss up" to make itself invulnerable. I will say this, Regen on STALKERS is amazing given how MoG can force yourself back into hide and you can just choose not to break hide without MoG on. However on Scrapper/Brute it does underperform noticeably in comparison to other secondaries (sorry but it is the truth.)

 

For this reason, and given regen's unique damage recovering mechanism, it becomes both the tankiest set when buffed up, and yet the squishiest when not. For this reason, I believe IH should be left as a toggle to enable Regen to at least have a chance to have some "normalcy."

I agree with this.  Having played a Regen scrapper prior to and post ED and the great Regen nerfs, I can honestly say Regen needs work.  In my opinion it has become far too clicky a set.  Putting IH back as a toggle would be a step in the right direction.

[Haijinx]

14 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Is it Wednesday?

 

Nerf Regen. 😋

qft

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Good point, but it does not disprove any of the following premises. So, congratulations on disproving the least important portion of the post.

I was not trying to prove or disprove any premises.  I simply stated that I believe the poster I was replying to misunderstood something.  I see no reason to attack me for it.

[GM Tock]

Logical Fallacies and semantic discussion of arguments can be fun at times, but this is a gaming forum.  An Associate's Degree is not required as a prerequisite to be able to post.

 

Stay on topic please.

[Zepp]

19 minutes ago, GM Tahquitz said:

Logical Fallacies and semantic discussion of arguments can be fun at times, but this is a gaming forum.  An Associate's Degree is not required as a prerequisite to be able to post.

 

Stay on topic please.

[puts doctorate away]

33 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I was not trying to prove or disprove any premises.  I simply stated that I believe the poster I was replying to misunderstood something.  I see no reason to attack me for it.

I apologize for my bluntness. And it was bluntness, not an attack. But, as GM Tahquitz pointed out, it is important to move the discussion forward rather than focusing on the least important aspect of the discussion.

[Lost Deep]

In my experience, Regen could get -regen resistance and still be adequately flawed. I've taken field medic to improve my healing ability on my brute, and while my click heals are amazing I need them more than I need them on other sets. That is not when fighting enemies with -regen, that's just normally, and that's my point: Giving Regen resistance to -regen wouldn't make it an amazing set off the bat. It would still suffer from a lack of defense and resistance, and still makes target prioritizing important so enemies with massive damage output can be taken out before they trash you.

 

Honestly Regen could likely benefit from more changes, but I think some baseline -regen resistance would be a good idea in endgame play to keep a single enemy from neutering a tanker or brute. Keep in mind that Regen doesn't give any resistance to -defense, -resistance, or in fact any debuff resistance at all. Willpower I think could stay as is, it has other options that are incredibly effective even without the regeneration, but given that Regen is a one-trick pony it's likely worth ensuring that it can do said trick reliably.

[Psyonico]

Regen and WP both need -Regen resistance.  I monitor my Regen on my WP/Mace tank and it is amazing how often he'll go from >3%/s to 0.  (granted, I've been fighting a lot of Malta recently)

[Galaxy Brain]

The bigger issue with Regen than any pure stat changes is that it is almost completely reaction based, and the way the game works makes that not always reliable. 

 

There are... 4 main clicks (Recon, DP, IH, MoG) to juggle at any given time, as well as Revive which is sorta :shrug: given its a self res that only works if you fail. The click powers have activation times, mainly for Recon and DP, that when combined with queuing them up mid-attack mean you have to wait for healing to be applied which can mean life or death depending on the situation. On a less severe note, even if everything is going well all the clicks in the set mean you spend less time actually using attack powers as you refocus on the defensive clicks.

 

Throwing regen a bone to allow it to be less "busy" should be a priority, and other threads have gone over just how that could be accomplished while retaining similar overall performance. 

[ShardWarrior]

4 hours ago, Zepp said:

I apologize for my bluntness. And it was bluntness, not an attack. But, as GM Tahquitz pointed out, it is important to move the discussion forward rather than focusing on the least important aspect of the discussion.

No apology necessary.  Pointing out and correcting inaccuracies in what was put forth in the original post is part of moving the discussion forward, especially since it seems like the OP was suggesting due to it being an unpopular choice. Regen needs work. 

 

4 hours ago, Lost Deep said:

In my experience, Regen could get -regen resistance and still be adequately flawed.

This is my experience as well.  Regen is still easily overwhelmed by incoming damage.  Recharge rate debuffs are also quite deadly to the set that relies on click heals.  I am not sure it really needs any -Regen resistance as it was pointed out earlier that so few enemy NPCs have -Regen in their arsenal.  Personally, I think turning IH back into a toggle would make the set play much better in solo situations.

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The bigger issue with Regen than any pure stat changes is that it is almost completely reaction based, and the way the game works makes that not always reliable. 

 

There are... 4 main clicks (Recon, DP, IH, MoG) to juggle at any given time, as well as Revive which is sorta :shrug: given its a self res that only works if you fail. The click powers have activation times, mainly for Recon and DP, that when combined with queuing them up mid-attack mean you have to wait for healing to be applied which can mean life or death depending on the situation. On a less severe note, even if everything is going well all the clicks in the set mean you spend less time actually using attack powers as you refocus on the defensive clicks.

 

Throwing regen a bone to allow it to be less "busy" should be a priority, and other threads have gone over just how that could be accomplished while retaining similar overall performance. 

I think you describe the main problem rather well - it is too busy a set. 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[Zepp]

The key issue with regen is IH (which is kinda the keystone power of the set), but how to solve it (making it perma-able via reduced recharge, making it a toggle, making it an inherent) all have balance issues. If it were reverted to a toggle, what would be the appropriate endurance cost and level of regen?

Edited May 20, 2020 by Zepp

[0th Power]

19 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

Fair enough, I will say though your suggestions aren't bad, and I guess they wouldn't be unwelcomed as they seem relatively balanced. I dislike #2, number 2 should be reduce reconstruction's recharge to 45 seconds, and have it contain a stackable -regen resist.

I would love reducing reconstruction’s time and have it -regen resist.  And that might well be enough.  But I think the cool down on either mog  or ih should be (slightly) lower. 

[Heraclea]

I have two regen characters: a scrapper tuned specifically for under-35 content, which recreates a character from Victory; and a new one, a Staff/Regen brute (tho' with a costume and name from Victory, used to be an Invuln/Dark Melee tanker)  that I rolled specifically to see if Regen could be the armor set of a tanking brute.  I sort of made it work, but Regen starts way behind anything else on resistance and defense. 

 

Can't recommend if you aren't sitting on a large stockpile of merits and salvage.  Any other armor set would need a lot less investment. 

[Zeraphia]

58 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

I have two regen characters: a scrapper tuned specifically for under-35 content, which recreates a character from Victory; and a new one, a Staff/Regen brute (tho' with a costume and name from Victory, used to be an Invuln/Dark Melee tanker)  that I rolled specifically to see if Regen could be the armor set of a tanking brute.  I sort of made it work, but Regen starts way behind anything else on resistance and defense. 

 

Can't recommend if you aren't sitting on a large stockpile of merits and salvage.  Any other armor set would need a lot less investment. 

I really like this because I think it brings about the perspective I've had with my Regeneration characters as well. While most of my other characters strive for defense inspirations to make them "unkillable" to most things for their designated purpose (not being killed on a Corruptor due to aoe hits, things like that) they in particular really benefit from the dual inspiration for purple/orange from Luna in Ouroboros. It is clearly not a perfect solution, and obviously carrying several incarnate-thread costing inspirations is not ideal by any means to any character, I have "made it work" with them, although they have taken several dirt naps in comparison to other sets... even my poor fire/fire blaster. Regen starts off without IO's and purely on SO's so far behind most of the other sets unfortunately, IO's bring it back to low-mediocre territory for survival, but it takes these special inspirations/group party buffs/incarnates to really make it competitive with other sets to the point that you have to really wonder... the primary of a Stalker/Brute/Scrapper (not really bringing in Sentinels, they're their own "thing") is melee damage, they are DPS classes. Their primary isn't to be a Tanker, you have to devote so much time and energy into Regeneration that it becomes "not worth it," in order to make it competitive.

 

Another thought becomes: what does this set even have really anymore in comparison specifically to Bio/Willpower? Bio practically steals what gives this set its unique features, does them better with an actual absorb, decent cap-able S/L res, high E/N/F/C defense, and heals/regen itself, and a T9 that practically steals what IH does when you encounter a decent enough mob to use it in. Willpower has very similar regeneration values outside of IH for regen, yet has better defense, better resistance, and much better overall utility all around.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Zeraphia