Additional Difficulty Mode

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

So why not just take advantage of what you already have? Ouro it and buff the enemies, debuff yourself. Drop your IO build. You can already *make* things more difficult for yourself. Heck, the Ouro options even give the requested for rewards, at least badges, as I recall.

 

I don't care if it's made or not, but to me it's like putting in a godmode code on another game then complaining everything's too easy. You *have the power now* to make things more difficult.

This is in ADDITION to that - free stuff. Fun stuff.  Making the game more diverse at nobodys expense.

[DougGraves]

18 hours ago, Infinitum said:

It would entirely be optional and directed at the need to fully explore the capabilities of top end builds.

I would rather top end builds be nerfed heavily and the game be based on skill at playing the game rather than skill at making builds and farming for influence to pay for them.

 

I see no reason why the actual gameplay in CoH should be turned into a test bed for theorycrafting builds.  I consider that the tail wagging the dog.  Playing should be the game, builds should just be a small part of playing - not the reason for playing.

[Taboo]

14 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

Except there are plenty of players that can +4/*8 nearly all the content in the game. 

On a more general level it could also be accurate to say there are players who can +4/8 some content in the game and they don't stray far from that content.

 

At the same time there should be some content for the 1%ers.

[Greycat]

21 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

I would rather top end builds be nerfed heavily and the game be based on skill at playing the game rather than skill at making builds and farming for influence to pay for them.

 

I see no reason why the actual gameplay in CoH should be turned into a test bed for theorycrafting builds.  I consider that the tail wagging the dog.  Playing should be the game, builds should just be a small part of playing - not the reason for playing.

... you know, I've stated elsewhere, I don't do "builds," I don't softcap or perma anything (at least not intentionally, my "builds" happen as I level up. But this smacks more of "You don't play my way and shouldn't be able to." Hell, I've had the opinions that IOs, as introduced, broke the game - but that ship has sailed, come back, gone on a few 'round the world cruises and been scrapped for a newer model.

 

Some people enjoy pushing builds, just like some people enjoy badging, RP, PVP or any other aspect of the game. This suggestion - though I wonder just how many people pushing for "harder difficulty" actually do any of what I suggest - doesn't turn gameplay into "a test bed for theorycrafting builds." I don't think we need an additional difficulty level, but I don't begrudge anyone for asking for them. IT wouldn't prevent anyone else from playing the way they want. (The only ones I can think of that would be affected would be badgers, who'd then have to have builds to handle the extra difficulty.)

[Infinitum]

27 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

I would rather top end builds be nerfed heavily and the game be based on skill at playing the game rather than skill at making builds and farming for influence to pay for them.

 

I see no reason why the actual gameplay in CoH should be turned into a test bed for theorycrafting builds.  I consider that the tail wagging the dog.  Playing should be the game, builds should just be a small part of playing - not the reason for playing.

In a lot of ways everything you say here is accurate, but you will never sell nerfing top end builds, and from a right vs wrong stand point that wouldn't be right to do that.

 

As many gave noted there is content that pushes top end builds, and there is content from 1-50 that tests all builds.

 

Advanced difficulty just takes it one step further and puts a new twist on content to further push top end builds if it's selected to do so.

 

I think the genie has been out of the bottle too long to make content that has been rehashed to death by veterans like myself to suddenly make it prohibitively harder and the only way to play the game across the whe spectrum of the game.

 

With advanced option everyone wins.

 

For that matter I'm sure a restricted option could be cooked up to turn the top end builds off if so desired.

[DougGraves]

Just now, Infinitum said:

In a lot of ways everything you say here is accurate, but you will never sell nerfing top end builds, and from a right vs wrong stand point that wouldn't be right to do that.

 

---

 

I think the genie has been out of the bottle too long to make content that has been rehashed to death by veterans like myself to suddenly make it prohibitively harder and the only way to play the game across the whe spectrum of the game.

 

With advanced option everyone wins.

 

I agree that if Homecoming heavily nerfed top end builds it would just lose its players.  I disagree that with advanced options everyone wins.  It takes dev time and does nothing for me.

 

The real problem is that IO set bonuses and paragon powers are invisible bonuses not accounted for by the game.  If the game had additional levels (real or imaginary) and treated a character with IO sets as being level 55 instead of level 50, then the game might work properly.  Instead, the game just kept making players more powerful while pretending they were not more powerful.

 

I don't think many people will use advanced options.  Just like PI radio teams could choose Carnie missions and not just Council missions - but they don't.  Players want power, not a challenge.  There are a small number, you are probably included, who want to see what your build can do.  But most are just happy to win easily and quickly.

[DougGraves]

34 minutes ago, Taboo said:

At the same time there should be some content for the 1%ers.

 

Agreed.  It is only fair.  1% of the content and 1% of the dev time should be devoted to the 1%ers.

[Hexquisite]

Additional difficulty modes will be overcome, and then you'll be asking for even harder modes. This will repeat, endlessly, until a mode so punishingly, so aggravatingly, so unenjoyably hard is introduced that everyone who'd been clamoring for it ragequits.

 

Harder modes aren't the solution for more challenging content. Because most people don't actually want challenging content. 

[Infinitum]

34 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

Agreed.  It is only fair.  1% of the content and 1% of the dev time should be devoted to the 1%ers.

Also to be fair, most of us - the 1 percenters arent really asking for any special treatment. 

 

I and others have come up with advanced enemies and advanced mode because theres a lot of topics popping up about the game being too easy and there's limited requirement for buffs on those teams.

 

It doesnt bother me any from a melee or a buffing perspective and im a 1% in every sense of the term.

 

I would play advanced mode but I personally dont need it to have fun.

 

I'm not the one crying foul about the game being too easy either.  But I am trying to offer an equitable solution to make everyone happy that doesnt involve nuking a good portion of the player base.

 

I dont think I have succeeded by the response here.

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, Hexquisite said:

Additional difficulty modes will be overcome, and then you'll be asking for even harder modes. This will repeat, endlessly, until a mode so punishingly, so aggravatingly, so unenjoyably hard is introduced that everyone who'd been clamoring for it ragequits.

 

Harder modes aren't the solution for more challenging content. Because most people don't actually want challenging content. 

City of Dark Souls?

[Peacemoon]

I voted yes, not because it is the perfect solution, but it is the most feasible. I’ve suggested this lots in the past. You can just raise the ceiling for difficulty settings and it would keep a lot of people happy. At the end of the day it is vital for the continued health of the game, I don’t see it as ‘catering for the 1%’.

Also I would like to see a reason to use the buffer enemies/debuffed players options that are currently in the game. Like +25% merit rewards for each. There needs to be some incentive.

 

But the main thing to do before we address difficulty would be to level up the playerbase so there isn’t such a wide variance between the bottom and the top. Personally I would modernise enhancements by:

Making all enhancements attuned by default

With this change, let SOs scale up to IO values at 50. The main advantage of crafted standard IOs would be that they’d be cheaper to make than buy.

Completing story arcs and TFs give you a random attuned set IO rather than the recipe.
At 30+ start having set IOs drop occasionally from mobs and not only recipes. Recipes are great but creates an extra bridge to getting IOs, which some players never cross.

This means people could just slot some of their rewards straight away, and gives people a ‘foot in the door’ to IO-land. Maybe they will pay more attention to their uncommon/rare recipes. 

Ability to unslot by default but for a standard fee based on level... 
 

Once you’ve done the above you could start making more general tweaks to mob difficulty imo...

Edited May 22, 2020 by Peacemoon

[ArchVileTerror]

I won't pretend to speak for "most" of any group, other than to suggest that roleplayers -are- a group who exist, and generally (to my knowledge) play the game for reasons which aren't exclusively related to challenge, reward, or "meta."  There are some who certainly exist, but I don't think there's enough hard data to suggest what any majority truly wants (but maybe there could be, with some pointed feedback collection?  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/9265-new-feature-in-game-polling-system/ ).  I've dabbled a little on a different Shard recently, and I have to say, the culture there is surprisingly different from what I've grown used to over the past year.   Really, I shouldn't have been so surprised, but I was.   It was certainly an eye-opener in regard to player motivation.

 

I personally want the Advanced Enemies content for two reasons:  To provide an option for those players who DO want increased difficulty without the underwhelming Ouro Buff/Debuff settings*, and to have New Content!  For story/roleplay reasons!  That's what makes it such a win-win for me.  But, as I said in that other thread, there is a definite developmental overhead related to that project.  I genuinely believe that this community would program and craft that work admirably with a little leadership and oversight, but the current development model being employed by the Homecoming Team doesn't appear to permit that possibility.  I hope things change in the future, and as a community we can prove the nay-sayers wrong . . . but only time will tell if that will work here.

 

* It's come up a lot over the past year, and I do think that players looking for a challenge would do well to -try- the Ouroboros Buff/Debuff settings, but I also acknowledge that they're . . . unsatisfying.  They're less of a difficulty setting, and more of a handicap setting.  NOTE:   I know that term carries a certain socially negative connotation to exploit or repress, and I don't use it in that context here.   I mean it in the strict terms of "a circumstance that impedes progress or success."  I see a well-developed game difficulty setting as something which instead adds depth to play in a more meaningful way than simply ++Enemy_Stat.

If, as a community, we would rather define these terms differently, then I'm up for that.   Get ourselves the language to really discuss the fundamentals of what players want, what other players observe, and where we can meet in the middle.

[ForeverLaxx]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

City of Dark Souls?

Considering the track record of games trying to be the next "Dark Souls of [Blank]", I'd be worried were someone to attempt this. City's mechanics just aren't conducive to this kind of gameplay which I'm sure you were well aware.

 

I don't min/max here, at least not to the degree others seem to. That said, I do min/max just about every other game I play, particularly RPGs, and that includes Dark Souls. The trick with challenging content is to make it worth your time to overcome, whether that be personal satisfaction or some other reward. For Dark Souls, that's generally "personal satisfaction" only, beyond being allowed to advance in the game. Considering how City showers people in drops, influence, and exp already I don't think making harder content for *more* of that is what's going to get people to do it. That leaves mere "personal satisfaction" as the only reward for slogging through brutal enemy spawns.

 

Is personal satisfaction enough? For some people, yeah, probably. Dark Souls 3 became immensely popular, but almost half the players quit the game before even getting to one of the easiest bosses. That boss is also one of the earlier bosses. Personal satisfaction doesn't seem to be a driving force for most of the game's playerbase, even when that game is catering to the demographic that specifically enjoys it. "Bragging rights" only seem to be a motivator when said rights are relatively within reach of the majority of a playerbase.

 

Now I, personally, have the Platinum Trophy for Dark Souls 3. I play the hell out of it and enjoy the challenge of doing so. Considering how many people gave up on Dark Souls 3, a game series notorious for it's "tough, but fair" gameplay, how many players of City do you think came here for that experience? I like City because it wasn't like other MMOs -- I didn't have to farm, I didn't have to grind, I didn't have to rush. I could play at my own pace and complete all the content with a superpowered character that fit a concept I liked. I could play it to relax. I'd wager much of the playerbase is in the same boat. Ask people in General Chat about what makes City so great and you'll get a variety of answers, though most of them boil down to how "casual" the game is and how "helpful" everyone is compared to your standard MMO experience of needing to eek out another 0.5% efficacy to maintain your raid spot in a guild that isn't even on bleeding edge content.

 

Adding another difficulty setting just seems like dev time that can be better spent on other things. City isn't billed as that "hardcore experience" and I'd hate for it to edge ever closer to that precipice personally. I have so many other games for that; it's good to have a game or two that are just relaxing and fun with big explosions.

[Troo]

3 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Considering the track record of games trying to be the next "Dark Souls of [Blank]", I'd be worried were someone to attempt this.

we did get City of Villains.. maybe I should read the rest of your post.

[Galaxy Brain]

 

Seriously, adding difficulty does not mean "Become Dark Souls". 

 

If CoH's base difficulty is say, 3/10, DS would be 10/10. Asking for an optional mode to make it 4-5/10 is not a leap

[KC4800]

Some really long mission arcs get out-leveled before completion. I had a lvl 29 arc I was completing at +4 on my lvl 33 tank. (I like to street sweep sometimes) It would have been nice to +5 it. I know that's not what this thread is about, but having this option would be useful - - sometimes at lower levels. Just sayin'.