Reducing End Drain

[GetRidOfWires]

We know there are certain groups like Clockwork, Freakshow, Sorceresses and Malta Sappers that drain Endurance. Some character power sets have the ability to reduce this effect, but some ATs do not have access to them. It would be nice if there was a set bonus available that could help, like “2 enhancements reduces Endurance Drain by X%, 4 reduces Endurance drain by Y%.” That would give players a choice to have some degree of End drain protection in their build if they feel they need it.

[Greycat]

Isn't that basically the recovery bonus?

[tidge]

1 hour ago, GetRidOfWires said:

We know there are certain groups like Clockwork, Freakshow, Sorceresses and Malta Sappers that drain Endurance. Some character power sets have the ability to reduce this effect, but some ATs do not have access to them. It would be nice if there was a set bonus available that could help, like “2 enhancements reduces Endurance Drain by X%, 4 reduces Endurance drain by Y%.” That would give players a choice to have some degree of End drain protection in their build if they feel they need it.

It is possible to 'buy' (create with salvage) two different buffs from a SG Base Empowerment Station:

• Endurance Drain Resistance
• Increase Recovery

[Saiyajinzoningen]

the really fun thing is when you realize that the low level endurance draining clockwork occur before you had access to stamina. Ahh good times

[SwitchFade]

End recovery, loss, drain mitigation and use reduction are fine as is with the many tools we have available.

 

I'm very sorry, I must no vote this.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, GetRidOfWires said:

It would be nice if there was a set bonus available that could help

There is ... it's called ... Defense.

If you aren't HIT by the attack that drains you, then you aren't drained.

With "sufficient" Defense you only have to worry about autohit attacks that drain (remarkably few of those, thankfully) and the Roll A Natural 20 hits that leak through your Defenses.

[Monos King]

Of course some ATs and powers don't have access to them. I believe a lot of people forget that the debuffs in this game are exactly that, and meant to be hurdles that you build around or overcome with your existing specialties and strengths. If one of those strengths happens to be endurance and energy resistance, then you're in a good spot against -end enemies. But we're not really supposed to just get protection/resistance against everything once we start pimping out characters, that really defeats the purpose of debuffs. Sapp Stick from Malta's Sapper has a chance for -10000 recovery, and Malta's Titans have a chance for equal helpings of -regen. They are meant to be obstacles of growing intensity.

 

With Incarnate destiny as an exception that exists because of the different period of time with different directions and expectations of the game, but ageless still being very much accessible if you just have to get -end res (you don't) I can't really see why this should be added. Feels like unnecessarily making combat easier.

[nihilii]

I think this is a reasonable suggestion. It'd be great to see a greater variety of set bonuses for these misc things. Opens up more build options and versatility.

Recovery: it lets you mitigate the effect by having more end, but actual end drain resist is functionally different. Recovery set bonuses are minimal (because they improve more than just end drain resist, obviously) and a hypothetical end drain resist set bonus would give you more bang for your buck, if it were at say +10% per bonus.

SG base buffs: those are nice, temporary buffs. No reason it couldn't coexist with permanent set bonuses. Plenty of SG base buffs are mirrored in set bonuses: recovery, slow resist, KB resistance, and so on.

Defense: universally good, no question. All the more reason we should embrace options for different routes.

"Flaws are good" (Monos' point): there is an opportunity cost to everything. If you chased drain resistances through set bonuses, you'd give up some defense set bonuses for it, or +HP or +dam or what have you.

I see no drawback to the OP and am surprised by the answers. Why is adding options a bad thing? I'm left to wonder if everyone is truly answering the body of the post and not just reacting to the title of the thread.

 

[Herotu]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

It is possible to 'buy' (create with salvage) two different buffs from a SG Base Empowerment Station:

• Endurance Drain Resistance
• Increase Recovery

How effective is Endurance Drain Resistance? I only need it to the degree that a malta sapper won't turn off my toggles. 

OR is it resistance % CHANCE to the whole effect? That's good but not as good as I'd like. 

So to clarify, I'd like it so that when a malta sapper zaps my tanker's endurance, it doesn't go to 0. I want it to go down to .. say... 5% - enough to stop me taking actions for fear of losing toggles. 

At the moment it's a 2 minute job to toggle everything back on and by then all my allies have run off with no tanker. Which is, admittedly, kinda fun to watch.

[tidge]

 

Stop the presses! New Headline!

 

CoX gamer wants specific change for narrow class of enemies without taking advantage of in-game preventive measures!

[Monos King]

38 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I see no drawback to the OP and am surprised by the answers. Why is adding options a bad thing? I'm left to wonder if everyone is truly answering the body of the post and not just reacting to the title of the thread.

Because there are plenty of options in the form of the powers you choose to play and the abilities you choose to get. I really feel set bonuses should remain that; bonuses, supplementary, an expansion on what you already have or could've had and just didn't get. End drain res starts crossing into powerset specific perks and I gotta say...not really down for that. If that happened, there wouldn't be any reason to not add every other debuff res via extraneous source as well. I'm totally ok with unique procs offering those more exclusive options, but set bonuses themselves? Seems needless. I even considered the opportunity cost thing, but the issue is that things like end drain res are so exclusive, and the existing stats are so prevalent, that there actually isn't any real trade off. You can get +def, +hp, +dmg in spades from sources like incarnates, base buff, many existing IO sets, etc, so you'd lose really nothing speccing into this endurance resistance thing. There's even a soft cap for def, so anything past that's only situationally necessary. This would result in just a straight buff.

 

I'll admit, it's possible greater issues stemming from similar mind have caused me to be less willing of ideas like this, but I think this type of idea steps on an actual slippery slope (not the fallacy), opening the door to more homogenizing notions (lets get global +secondary effect or +defense res procs!) and just undermines the more iconic aspects of powersets and mitigates the need for actually understanding the strengths of your powerset in overcoming certain adversities. If you think I'm actually succumbing to a slippery slope (the fallacy) I should remind you there is already a precedent set for this kind of thing. Set bonus increases to mez resistance were clamored for, which quickly lead to general buffs in ordinary resistance set bonuses once it was compared to defense and now maxed out players are variable tanks regardless of AT. People wanted inherent fitness (a good idea) and now they want inherent hasten (arguable idea) and automatic domination (ridiculous idea). Allowing one thing very often leads to crys for another, which occasionally actually happens, so I would really just prefer we left endurance resistance and other unique debuff res to the powersets that get it, or perhaps even unique procs.

 

As someone else had said, you can just spec defense. Or keep the end draining enemies mezzed, kill them instantly or focus your efforts on the one that drains. Powers already have the means to combat debuffs, and sometimes it's better to not engage despite that. You know, strategize time. Straight giving resilience to those negative affects is best case boring and worst case undermining. 

 

 

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

the really fun thing is when you realize that the low level endurance draining clockwork occur before you had access to stamina. Ahh good times

Not to mention Mu, redside. I hate dealing with packs of them on a lowbie.

 

Which is part of the issue with looking for these bonuses - when I could *really* use them, they're not there. By the time you get up to where sets would have end drain resistance, you've probably got enough going on - even on basic builds - that you can mitigate the effect in most instances.

 

(Not really against the idea, just not really sold on it either.)

[nihilii]

Thanks for expanding on your opinion, it's insightful to hear your perspective.

 

36 minutes ago, Monos King said:

If that happened, there wouldn't be any reason to not add every other debuff res via extraneous source as well.

This already exists: slow resistance is available through set bonuses. It seems arbitrary to campaign against endurance drain resistance but not slow resistance.

 

36 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I even considered the opportunity cost thing, but the issue is that things like end drain res are so exclusive, and the existing stats are so prevalent, that there actually isn't any real trade off. You can get +def, +hp, +dmg in spades from sources like incarnates, base buff, many existing IO sets, etc, so you'd lose really nothing speccing into this endurance resistance thing. There's even a soft cap for def, so anything past that's only situationally necessary. This would result in just a straight buff.

There is no current way to hit the HP cap + damage cap + defense cap permanently on a single character*. That's even if you consider the softcap as the ultimate goal (which it isn't, even basic mobs feature -def in spades). Opportunity cost is inevitable.

 

*well, OK, maybe on a Stone/SS Tanker. Which comes with the dramatic tradeoffs in mobility we all know.

Look at it this way. You have a finite number of slots. If right now you use a 3-piece set giving you +10% regen and +1.88% HP, and if tomorrow you replaced it with a new hypothetical set giving you +4% recovery and +10% endurance drain resistance, then you'd lose 10% regen and 1.88% HP. No ifs or buts about it. You *could* argue you don't care about the regen and the HP anyway, but in which case this begs the question, why'd you have the set in the first place? The "straight buff" would have happened because you weren't optimizing your build previously, not because the change itself is problematic.

 

36 minutes ago, Monos King said:

opening the door to more homogenizing notions

36 minutes ago, Monos King said:

As someone else had said, you can just spec defense. Or keep the end draining enemies mezzed, kill them instantly or focus your efforts on the one that drains. Powers already have the means to combat debuffs, and sometimes it's better to not engage despite that. You know, strategize time. Straight giving resilience to those negative affects is best case boring and worst case undermining. 

I struggle with an argument against homogenization when it's also suggested to pursue the most common route for survivability. Two searches for "softcap" vs "endurance drain" would likely give you a 100:1 ratio skewed towards the former. If anything, I'm for this suggestion because it would open options away from homogenization, getting end drain resist rather than chasing defense.

 

In essence, isn't defense ultimately the most "boring" mitigation? You simply dodge most ill effects and can restrict your worries to tohit buffs and defense debuffs.

I think there's two different debates here, "is adding an endurance drain set bonus a good idea" vs "are there ways to deal with endurance drain right now". At least I see them as two entirely different topics, your mileage may vary. The OP hasn't framed endurance drain to be a catastrophic problem that needs to be fixed, just that it would be nice to have an optional solution, at a cost, for this rather niche thing. I agree vehemently with his framing and suggestion.

Edited May 27, 2020 by nihilii

[tidge]

1 minute ago, nihilii said:

I think there's two different debates here, "is adding an endurance drain set bonus a good idea" vs "are there ways to deal with endurance drain right now". At least I see them as two entirely different topics, your mileage may vary.

Are there any candidates for which sets would get this hypothetical bonus? I am willing to wager that few players are willing to give up existing Defense, Damage Resistance or Global Recharge bonuses. Would players really chase a '6th-piece' bonus if it provided Endurance Drain Resistance? Are players going to 5-slot Control sets to get an Endurance drain resistance?

 

[MTeague]

I guess I sort of look at like... you could always.... get wild and crazy and.... team?  with someone who can provide protection from this?

 

A Stormy's O2 Boost?

A FF Bubbler?  (force fields include End Drain resist as well as defense)

Bring along an Empath for Recovery Aura?

Bring along an Elec Affin character?

Melee could in fact.... back off.... when the Freaks/Carnies are low on health, and let ranged finish them off?

 

I'm definitely with @Monos King on this point: 

2 hours ago, Monos King said:

I believe a lot of people forget that the debuffs in this game are exactly that, and meant to be hurdles that you build around or overcome with your existing specialties and strengths. If one of those strengths happens to be endurance and energy resistance, then you're in a good spot against -end enemies. But we're not really supposed to just get protection/resistance against everything once we start pimping out characters, that really defeats the purpose of debuffs. Sapp Stick from Malta's Sapper has a chance for -10000 recovery, and Malta's Titans have a chance for equal helpings of -regen. They are meant to be obstacles of growing intensity.

The classic means of overcoming things your powers are weak against, is a friend who's strong against them. 

 

Now it's true, some forms of Debuff Resist (Slow Resistance) exist in IO form. One can argue if Slow Resistance is really just Status Protection vs a Debuff. It kind of skirts the gray area between them, but it exists. 

 

But there's Zero versions of Defense Debuff Resist on an IO.  And I wouldn't want there to be any.

There's Zero versions of To-Hit Debuff Resistance on an IO.  And I wouldn't want there to be any.

There's Zero versions of Recharge Debuff Resistance on an IO.   And I wouldn't want there to be any.

I put Endurance Drain into this same category, and I feel adding Endurance Drain is the slippery slope leading to DDR being added to IO's.

 

Do I have veto power here?  Of course not.  You remain free to keep promoting your propose change, and I remain free to saying characters should have a few "Can Openers" that they're vulnerable against.  Ultimately the devs will decide what they think is best.

Edited May 27, 2020 by MTeague

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, Herotu said:

So to clarify, I'd like it so that when a malta sapper zaps my tanker's endurance, it doesn't go to 0. I want it to go down to .. say... 5% - enough to stop me taking actions for fear of losing toggles. 

At the moment it's a 2 minute job to toggle everything back on and by then all my allies have run off with no tanker. Which is, admittedly, kinda fun to watch.

Unless the set bonus was overwhelmingly powerful, 2 sappers would still detoggle you.  and if you're in a group soaking the alpha, it's entirely probable you're being pinged by multiple Sappers.

[AerialAssault]

 

Problem solved.

[Monos King]

49 minutes ago, MTeague said:

There's Zero versions of Recharge Debuff Resistance on an IO.   And I wouldn't want there to be any.

Actually...the slow res is actually...recharge debuff res. It includes every form of -speed. 

 

And the recharge res cap is 100% so you can build for immunity there. I'm indifferent to that in PvE but I absolutely despise it in PvP. I think the OG devs actually wanted players to become more resilient to recharge and it did inevitably become the meta so maybe that's why it has that exception.

[Alchemystic]

The reason there are so few powers that grant resistance to recovery debuffs or endurance drain is because there are so few enemies that inflict recovery debuffs or endurance drain.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

This already exists: slow resistance is available through set bonuses. It seems arbitrary to campaign against endurance drain resistance but not slow resistance.

That logic is exactly the slippery slope I'm talking about though. I kinda explained why I was against the end res with that whole paragraph too. Theme and undermining powers and stuff.

 

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

In essence, isn't defense ultimately the most "boring" mitigation? You simply dodge most ill effects and can restrict your worries to tohit buffs and defense debuffs.

I think you misunderstood me a bit. I wasn't saying that the type of mitigation itself was boring, I was saying that being able to just directly defend against all weaknesses would be boring, which this sort of thing puts us on the path of. Your statement above proves that...the next person that complains about tsoo hurricane and skulls making them miss a lot would ask for to hit resistance IO using the theoretically added -end res and slow res as a basis. And then the cycle continues. 

[Monos King]

When I first started playing, I was always a blaster and I had no idea about endurance resistance. In fact, I actually only learned about it in homecoming (I was only a meta player for temporary powers and accolades and few else). Malta sappers were always really exciting to go up against because I aimed to murder them before they could do a thing, or I'd just knock them away when I couldn't get to them. If not, I was pretty boned, and I reveled in the challenge. I understand that might just be me though.

 

What I'm really saying is, If the OPs argument is "it would be nice to get end res to avoid getting end drained", that just feels like an attempt at making the game personally easier because debuffs are supposed to make the game more challenging. Which isn't something I'm in favor of for the reasons I expressed earlier. Slow is an exception, you can become immune to it (I have no idea why and actually I've been meaning to see how people feel about upping the recharge debuff cap from -75% to like -300% but thats someting else) and perhaps because it's so prevalent, devastating, and there aren't things like inspirations to easily remedy it it receives IOs. End isn't in the same boat there, and I just don't feel it would be anything other than eventually troublesome if added.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Monos King

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

Actually...the slow res is actually...recharge debuff res. It includes every form of -speed. 

Interesting. Did not know that. I guess it explains why it's seemed a popular thing to slot for. 

[Troo]

[Outrider_01]

Hold 

Stun

Fear

 

Aim for the small fry, aka the sappers

 

Nit picket for lower levels: No, getting your ass handed to you at low level doesn't justify some buff as it affects everyone equally with endurance issues.  At high levels you are just gonna roll through it any way.

[MTeague]

The most irksome enddrainers on melee for me aren't the sappers.  they die fast, and often miss, or otherwise get Controlled pretty quick. 

 

The most annoying ones for me as the Freak Super Stunners.  Because I'm pretty sure that End-Drain-On-Ressurect they do is 100% auto-hit.  It's nailed my /SR scrapper pretty much every time, until I learned to just back the heck up before finishing them off.  And not just a little, because it has a decent range when it activates.  Carnie packs aren't that that big a deal because either there arent' usuallly so many of them dying at once, OR, their drain may require a to-hit roll that my /SR just dodges.

 

I'd still rather have the odd Can-Opener in the game though, that I have to be alert for and handle a bit difference instead of facerolling everything.