Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Some things have changed with the patches. On the whole Fire Armor is still an offfense based armor and it is now more durable. But despite Burn having been tweaked to be (mostly) back on par with the bugged version it is (mostly) not worth using in a ST situation. This may require testing on a per case basis.

 

 

 

Previously known as Fire/Claws: the Brunker. Alas Claws, I knew thee well, but your time on the throne has ended.

 

What is the idea behind a Brunker?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

While I had my toughest tank in the Rad Armor/MA that I posted previously the damage was never exciting (plus the use of lightning was not very thematic). @Camel's funny guide revitalized my interest in Fire Armor and I went back to poke at it some more.

 

I had been in a rut looking for a damage character to sink my teeth into but something never quite clicked as the moment I went into anything a bit more extreme the squishyness was felt. Sure, Council is never a problem but there is more to CoH than Council.

 

Now I am pleased I can tank *and* have a nice damage dealing character with how this turned out.

 

 

I am going to divide this multiple parts because after testing pretty much all possible combinations three have come out on top:

 

Fire/Ice Melee: the all rounder.

- Pros: This has become my favorite and my recommendation for a new player. Unlike the Martial Arts variant it works at near full potential right out of the box. The damage is good and the build has a very nice power progression. We get a good AoE at level 4 that usually makes me crank up spawn size to 4-5 that instant, we get Build-Up at level 16, then Burn at 18, then the ultimate protection skill at 20 in Ice Patch. At 26 we get our second Build-Up in Fiery Embrace, and at 28 we get the heavy hitting Freezing Touch. Everything afterwards is just padding. It is common to just destroy whole groups of enemies with Build-up + Frost + Burn leaving only nearly dead lieutenants and an half HP boss.

The best part is that in the very early levels before our defenses are consolidated we can start a fight by dropping Ice Patch and just watch the enemies come running and start flopping. This makes us and our team safe. By level 30+ Ice Patch is no longer required but depending on the enemy and if it does nasty debuffs (I.E. Circle of Thorns) then dropping it in the middle of a spawn will add a nice fat layer of extra security.

Lets face it, 90% of the game is pretty easy and does not require more than the baseline Tanker sturdyness. But when things get dire then Ice Patch can be whipped out and turn certain loss into wins.

- Downsides: no Force Feedback anywhere to accelerate the build. The single target is not amazing either since it relies on using Frost for the single target duration. That said the testing of the damage is done on a neutral target that has the same resistance to all types of damage. In the 'real world' both Claws and Martial Arts do a type of damage (Slash and Smash respectively) that is commonly resisted, sometimes heavily so. This is not the case of Ice who is a much more exotic type of damage. That means ultimately we may not notice this damage difference since Claws/Martial Arts may be pushing through 20% or more damage resistance the moment they fight robots or such.

Ice Patch is not a magic bullet for survival either. Enemies will flop but not all and not all the time so they will still attack. This is compounded by Freezing Touch applying a -1000% KB effect that effectively prevents Ice Patch from working (very annoying against Paragon Protectors we are trying to prevent from triggering their Moment of glory).

Attributing my subjective opinion I would say Ice Patch adds something like an extra 30% survivability but in no way makes a character invulnerable. What makes a character 'invulnerable' is a combination of defensive layers and killing fast which is something this build achieves.

 

 

Fire/Martial Arts: the Turtle.

- Pros: It ends with 45% defense to Melee/Ranged/AoE. This makes it pretty defensive since it will deflect debuffing attacks, even Psi which is a weakness of Fire Armor. The damage from Dragon Tail is anemic but it animates fast and the Force Feedback forces more recharge which pumps more Burns, more Focus Chi, more Healing Flames, more Consumes. Substituting Crippling Axe Kick for Cobra Strike is a minor damage loss and in return the build has a complete AoE and single target chain before level 20. This is the defensive version difficult to beat.

- Downside: it lacks an early Build-Up (Focus Chi) which prevents it from punching through early level BS such as -defense or -ToHit debuffing, but level 28 isn't that far. It also lacks an early AoE only obtaining one at level 18 and then 20. If soloing this means there is no point in increasing spawn size since they all need to be taken down one by one anyway.

The build is a gimmicky carefully built castle of cards. That means that for the end-game it may well be the best of all three not lagging behind in the damage in the slightest but also the strongest defensively. But it means it wants a lot of slots and thus it will bloom late (but still exemplar extremely well, it just needs those slots in place). With its strongest point being capped defense it asks at least level 45 to get this, or 39 (if exemplared) for 40% defense. This isn't as bad as all that since the baseline is still a Tanker but someone leveling it for the first time may not understand the enthusiasm.

 

 

Fire/Claws: the Dragon.

- Pros: This is a nice no brainer build. Spin is obtained at level 16 and due to some wacky maths it does twice the damage of any other AoE from other attack sets. Even those obtained at level 35-38 (slight hyperbole but not by far. Atom Smasher, for example, does 233 in one of my builds and Frozen Aura 195. In this build Spin does 341. Not quite double, uh? But wait, because of Follow-Up the build is near permanently under a 70% damage boost. So that's 430). Spin is just that good.

It also has a very solid and fast single target rotation and two places for Force Feedback slots to speed up the build. Follow-Up ensures we go around with at least two stacks of it boosting near permanently the damage of everything by 70%. Considering Build-Up increases damage by 80% for only 10 seconds and then has a recharge of 30 seconds then it is easy to see why Follow-Up is so well received. This is the offense oriented build.

- Cons: it lacks a punch-through-BS button. Follow-Up is great since we commonly run around with 70% damage boost but what's better than 70%? 160% damage. Normal Build-Ups can trigger the Gaussian proc and (nearly) ensure it goes off whenever used. When fighting problematic enemies it's best to drop a 160% damage empowered Burn and start slapping the debuffing enemies fast before they crumble our defense. Follow-Up also suffers from having to hit an enemy to provide the buff which can go wrong if we are being debuffed already.

 

 

The Fire/Martial Arts build is in this post. The Fire/Claws is here. The Fire/Ice is here.

 

 

 

Martial Arts boasts of Storm Kick giving 10% to all defense for 13 seconds. Even very early in the leveling career we can have as much as 25% defense. Martial Arts also has two places to slot Force Feedback +recharge procs turning the build into something turbo charged straight out of a random Fast and Furious movie. One of them in Dragon Tail which helps as low as Positron part one. Dragon Tail also provides valuable soft CC by applying a reliable knockdown. Time spent falling on their back and getting back up is time not spent hitting back. Then it merges with Fire Armor's Burn - also available as low as Positron part one - that works for both single target damage as well as AoE, plus the offensive bent of a damage aura and Fiery Embrace.

 

 

Upsides:

- DAMAGE!  Leveling with the character is pure carnage and I felt *very* powerful during the whole trip. Burn followed by Dragon Tail not just hurts enemies but puts them on their back nullifying the alpha and all with a nice wide AoE radius. Later on Fiery Embrace increases this even more where even Martial Arts being smashing damage shows the improvement with chunks taken off bosses with every hit.

- Very good exemplaring. Storm Kick + Dragon Tail + Burn is available straight from Positron part 1 with only Crippling Axe Kick needing to be replaced for Thunder Kick until level 30 (if exemplared). Or simply replace Crippling Axe Kick for Cobra Strike for a pretty minor damage dip. CAK is still better is wanting to hit pylons since it has a -res proc that can be slotted in.

- Pretty damn sturdy with 90% resists (with ATO stacks + Barrier) and 45% to Melee, Ranged and AoE, and 50% to melee (with Barrier).

- The slotting is a bit more exotic than my norm. The upside of the exotic slotting was that I realized I was so close to S/L cap that Tough was almost not needed. A bit of juggling and it turned out to not be needed at all. This makes one less toggle which is always nice. Tough still needs to be taken to reach Weave but it's merely a mule.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Downsides:

- Definitely squishier than my Rad/MA. The build works very well against simple opponents as @Camel mentions in his guide. It is not difficult to survive grabbing agro saturation in the monster hunt during Hami raids. But once debuffs start being used things can go sour very fast. 

- Dragon Tail plays horribly with the Clockwork's weakness to KB gimmick. Save yourself angst and use an unslotter to substitute one IO of your choice from Dragon Tail for a Sudden Acceleration while going through that TF during leveling or if deciding to put yourself through it again once at max level.

- The downside of the exotic slotting has Hasten suffering a bit and at a hefty 144 seconds but the FF procs are going to help narrow that gap.

 

It is important to notice that the build HAS sapper protection. It is actually a rather good sapping protection (98% endurance drain resistance) but we need to be pre-emptive about it. Basically it is Consume. Using it gives a two minute buff and since Consume recharges in one minute this is easily a perma effect. But, it needs to be used pre-emptively. If you're doing sapping content (a friend of mine made an AE arc purpose made to slap me, and it worked really well with sapping enemies) use Consume either on cooldown or keeping an eye on the buff. But this does not protect against -recovery debuffs! Standing by a Super Stunner when it resurrects will still smack your recovery down. But at least a Sapper will not take a huge gulp of of your blue bar leading to catastrophic detoggling.

 

 

 

 But the leveling, how is the leveling?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

When I reach a pack of mobs I will usually open with Storm Kick (defense, resistance from the Tanker IO), Build-Up, Burn, (DAMAGE!), then Dragon Tail (Force Feedback proc acceleration and soft CC). Because of the slotting this order means Dragon Tail will always be ready at the same time as Burn. It is thus easy to align both allowing Burn to go first so it enjoys the FF proc. Then Cobra Strike (big damage all procced out as it is further enhanced by Builds-Up and the Gaussian proc (Gaussian lasts 5 seconds, so 2.3 seconds from Burn + 1.7 seconds Dragon Tail = 4 seconds)) followed by another Storm Kick (keep dem Tanker +resistance procs rolling and defense up). By now Burn is available once more and everything can start over.

 

In single target I try to go with Storm Kick, Cobra Strike, Storm Kick, Crane Kick. Loop over. Burn whenever it is up. As the hardest hitter skill of the build it takes precedence.

 

Do not try to hoard Build up and Fiery Embrace. I would not use both at the same time though. Build-up + Burn will already kill minions and using Fiery Embrace at the same time would only double kill them. I would rather stagger the use of both but use them all the time. Fire Armor primes for being an offensive armor set and it is something to lean on. BU + Burn, keep fighting, Burn is up again? Now use it with FE. The Force Feedback procs ensure they come back often.


 

 

The build with Cobra Strike instead of Crippling Axe Kick. The changes are minor (Cobra Strike 327 damage VS Crippling Axe Kick 352), but the upside is that the build has all the AoE and ST by level 20! A friend wants to do Positron part one? Go in there like a champ with your full AoE and ST kit fully slotted, no greyed out attacks. Not many builds can boast of this. If wanting to play with pylon times take Crippling Axe Kick instead and replace one of the damage procs in it and Burn for a -res proc, but I have explained below why I stopped using -res procs, and that was the reason to take CAK so there is no particular reason to wait until 38 to have a full kit. Everything else after level 20 is just to add more damage or sturdiness.

 

  Reveal hidden contents


 

 Incarnate priority:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Leveling build with tips:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Something I tested around page 4 or 5 was incarnates and their effect. Not napkin math but actual testing.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

To use -res procs or not?

 

  Reveal hidden contents


 

 

+4 AV testing:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Pylon testing:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Edited by Sovera
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2
  • Thumbs Up 1
Posted

I never liked the term "scranker".  It always makes my lips itch.  ðŸ˜¬

 

  • Like 1

@Rathstar

Energy/Energy Blaster (50+3) on Everlasting

Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior

Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable

Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer

Posted (edited)

 This is the original Brunker. Fire Armor/Claws. Exquisite, but ultimately replaced by Martial Arts who further embodies the Brunker concept.

 

 

This is a leveling build I made for a friend that I convinced to play the game with me. It is a *lot* cheaper and still has 40% defenses (45% with Barrier) and the resistances are still capped with two ATO stacks and Barrier's 5%. So it has everything a Tanker needs to tank. There was care in picking up cheap sets a player can slot early as they level up and make money. Some things will always be expensive like the LotGs and the defense uniques but they are goals to be worked at.

 

The trade offs are a worse Hasten and less damage due to no procs in attacks but it will do just fine to burn the content until money is amassed.

 

I include tips for new players:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

This is the level 50 build with Shockwave. Shockwave has great value in keeping things on their butt with the KD which is invaluable in tough situations:

 

Tanker (Fire Claws Shockwave).mbdFetching info...

 

 

The alternative build that I am currently using without Shockwave and my reasoning:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Quotes:

 

  Reveal hidden contents


 

Tested against a pylon:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 Incarnates testing.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Mah first +4x8 ITF soloed, like a grown-up!

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

mids_build.mbdFetching info...

Edited by Sovera
  • Haha 1
Posted
  On 6/9/2020 at 3:35 PM, Sovera said:

Well, what about brunker? 😄

Expand  

"Brupper, can you spare a dime?"

 

@Rathstar

Energy/Energy Blaster (50+3) on Everlasting

Energy/Temporal Blaster (50+3) on Excelsior

Energy/Willpower Sentinel (50+3) on Indomitable

Energy/Energy Sentinel (50+1) on Torchbearer

Posted

I dislike "scranker".
But I AM prone to Tank-Lock.

This is probably how I'd have gone after Fire/Claws.
 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

If you want to be godlike, pick anything.

If you want to be GOD, pick a TANK!

Posted

Quotes from people I've played with 😄 :

 

- Someone needed help with an AV they were not denting, 'What the heck, are you using envenomed daggers or do tankers do that much damage??'

- Someone bitching because I was running ahead of a team in a TF and someone else tells them. 'They have Spin and Burn. They *are* the team'.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
Posted (edited)

 Thanks for the shout-out! Nice looking build too! I just recently flew to the pacific northwest for the 2020 wildland fire season, picked up a new gaming laptop as I was using my personal desktop when I was in Chicago. So I'm in the process of getting all my files in order. I'll get Mid's Reborn soon and might tweak my Fire/Energy to get to 45% S/L defense instead of 45% Melee defense. Not sure if I need to, as I don't die as it is. But might be an improvement!

 

  On 6/9/2020 at 8:19 PM, Sovera said:

Quotes from people I've played with 😄 :

 

- Someone needed help with an AV they were not denting, 'What the heck, are you using envenomed daggers or do tankers do that much damage??'

- Someone bitching because I was running ahead of a team in a TF and someone else tells them. 'They have Spin and Burn. They *are* the team'.

Expand  

One of my favorites was when I was forming a PI radio team, I had herded all the monsters on the Cutlass Isles and was just standing there. I didn't have Barrier or Melee Hybrid on and They couldn't dent me. The whole team eventually came to me and they ALL died. There was even a 50+1 Invuln Tank (minimal IOs) he sent me a tell asking me if I had "God mode" on. He couldn't believe what he was seeing, my HP bar never dropped. I once soloed Vandal during a Citadel TF, I popped a bunch of reds, hit BU and Fiery Embrace and I kid you not... My Energy Transfer did AT least 7-10% of his HP bar in one hit. It was weird to see an AV's health bar drop as if it were a boss. When the team finally caught up to me, he was laying at my feet. Someone asked if I had an "insta-kill" button. I said yes, and drug Energy Transfer to the chat window. 

Edited by Camel
  • Haha 1
Posted
  On 6/9/2020 at 1:36 PM, Sovera said:

- Definitely squishier than my Rad/MA. The build works very well against simple opponents as @Camel mentions in his guide. It is not difficult to survive grabbing agro saturation in the monster hunt during Hami raids. But once debuffs start being used things can go sour very fast. In particular sapping since the build has zero protection against such. I managed to get killed in five seconds from a Sapper spawning around my character and in the time of locating it, my bar had been dried. This is not a character I would expect to survive the 801 challenge unlike the Rad/MA.

- Some accuracy is a bit scarce (75% for Slash without FU, 88% for FU without FU) but I decided not to mess with the castle of cards. In any case I've taken to play with Focused Accuracy always on despite it not being slotted for constant use (originally just a mule to reach Physical Perfection, but "#$%& Arachnos and their blinds!). Turns out there is always someone spewing Ageless in a team, or SB, or AM, and it has not been a big problem.

Expand  

Consume gives you End Resist. You just need to use it before you encounter enemies that End Drain.

 

In terms of the rest, I think you might be making a mistake pursuing S/L Defense. Fiery Aura is a resist/heal-based set, so getting to hard cap is more important than optimizing defenses. S/L Defense also isn't all that important if you've got S/L Resist maxxed.

 

For comparison, my Fiery/MA:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 6/10/2020 at 6:35 PM, Hjarki said:

Consume gives you End Resist. You just need to use it before you encounter enemies that End Drain.

 

In terms of the rest, I think you might be making a mistake pursuing S/L Defense. Fiery Aura is a resist/heal-based set, so getting to hard cap is more important than optimizing defenses. S/L Defense also isn't all that important if you've got S/L Resist maxxed.

 

For comparison, my Fiery/MA:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Expand  

I disagree. Had I not built for layered defenses, I would not be having as much success as I am. You can get away with not building as much as you have a permanent +10% Def to all from Storm Kick. 90% resistance is laughable in the face of cascading defense failure from +4 enemies. Run an ITF at +4 and try to dust off the damage they do. They might only be hitting you for 13-100ish damage... But it doesn't matter when 16 of those are coming your way per second. 45% defense to either S/L or Melee is absolutely the way to go if you are trying to survive any and all encounters.

 

If I didn't play aggressively, I would get WRECKED on a +4 ITF with minimal support, I am constantly dropping Burns/Whirling Hands as often as I can to thin the herd. I play very aggressively, often jumping and taking myself out of melee range while simultaneously taunting and controlling aggro. You built for a lot of recharge, which is fine. But I built for defense, I rarely have to use my heal, so recharge is a non-issue for me here, especially when I click Healing Flames MAYBE once a week. If I am rusty, I may hit it a few times. But outside of low level TF's it's rarely used. 

Posted (edited)
  On 6/10/2020 at 6:35 PM, Hjarki said:

Consume gives you End Resist. You just need to use it before you encounter enemies that End Drain.

 

In terms of the rest, I think you might be making a mistake pursuing S/L Defense. Fiery Aura is a resist/heal-based set, so getting to hard cap is more important than optimizing defenses. S/L Defense also isn't all that important if you've got S/L Resist maxxed.

 

For comparison, my Fiery/MA:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Expand  

All but cold, toxic and psi are at 90%. Two stacks of the ATO and Barrier ensure it. I could decide to get hardcapped resistances without accounting for the ATO + Barrier, but then the ATO stacks and Barrier are useless. I prefer not to follow that course and instead use those tools.

 

S/L, for example. With one stack it's at 83.9%. With Barrier it's at 88.9%. With a second ATO stack it's overcapped.

 

Energy and Negative are at 79.3% turn into 84.3% with Barrier, then a second stack (barely) overcaps.

 

Two stacks are much easier to get and maintain than three where PPM and misses thanks to RNG can mess it up.

 

 

  On 6/10/2020 at 5:32 PM, Camel said:

One of my favorites was when I was forming a PI radio team, I had herded all the monsters on the Cutlass Isles and was just standing there. I didn't have Barrier or Melee Hybrid on and They couldn't dent me. The whole team eventually came to me and they ALL died. There was even a 50+1 Invuln Tank (minimal IOs) he sent me a tell asking me if I had "God mode" on. He couldn't believe what he was seeing, my HP bar never dropped. I once soloed Vandal during a Citadel TF, I popped a bunch of reds, hit BU and Fiery Embrace and I kid you not... My Energy Transfer did AT least 7-10% of his HP bar in one hit. It was weird to see an AV's health bar drop as if it were a boss. When the team finally caught up to me, he was laying at my feet. Someone asked if I had an "insta-kill" button. I said yes, and drug Energy Transfer to the chat window. 

Expand  

 

And then there's the harsh wake-up call like I had 😄 I had been duoing/trioing TFs with friends (this build has been fricking amazing for such) and we decide to do Posi 1.

 

Yeah, that didn't go well.

 

Between the huge toxic hole, losing a ton of protection from set bonuses being gone AND running it at +2x8 (told you I was getting 100% cocky 😄) I got *annihilated* by the CoT with their massive spam of -ACC, -defense, and immobilizes.

 

In any other content it is as you've said it yourself. Go in, Burn, AoE, boom, melting pack and damage is immediately cut. With the astounding amount of -acc from the ghosts plus the bosses' FF bubble plus my friend half AFK I missed missed missed and they survived and spammed CC until they ate me alive.

 

 

That said it's not a stain on the build. I don't think many builds can run such early content with so many toggles and IO bonuses cut off on +2x8 and not suffer from the same. Even so swapping most of my insps for yellows and oranges might have been enough but it was going to be too slow and painful just to drag someone half AFK.

Edited by Sovera
Posted
  On 6/10/2020 at 6:54 PM, Camel said:

I disagree. Had I not built for layered defenses, I would not be having as much success as I am. You can get away with not building as much as you have a permanent +10% Def to all from Storm Kick. 90% resistance is laughable in the face of cascading defense failure from +4 enemies. Run an ITF at +4 and try to dust off the damage they do. They might only be hitting you for 13-100ish damage... But it doesn't matter when 16 of those are coming your way per second. 45% defense to either S/L or Melee is absolutely the way to go if you are trying to survive any and all encounters.

Expand  

You've got it backwards. Soft-capped S/L/M without DDR is meaningless against defensive debuffs - that's why it's called a 'cascading' failure. The difference between having soft-capped defenses and no defenses at all is meaningless in such situations, so it all comes down to resists/healing/regen/control. Builds which emphasize the latter have a much easier time with defense debuffs than builds which don't.

 

You're also overlooking the fact that Soul Mastery effectively gives me soft-capped defense to everything if I so choose via -hit debuffs and an additional -20% damage. So, yeah, I'm 'dusting off the damage they do'. I very rarely use Darkest Night, I use Obliteration primarily for damage and Storm Kick is generally only used once a spawn is down to single target, but the options are there.

  On 6/10/2020 at 6:54 PM, Camel said:

If I didn't play aggressively, I would get WRECKED on a +4 ITF with minimal support, I am constantly dropping Burns/Whirling Hands as often as I can to thin the herd. I play very aggressively, often jumping and taking myself out of melee range while simultaneously taunting and controlling aggro. You built for a lot of recharge, which is fine. But I built for defense, I rarely have to use my heal, so recharge is a non-issue for me here, especially when I click Healing Flames MAYBE once a week. If I am rusty, I may hit it a few times. But outside of low level TF's it's rarely used. 

Expand  

I don't actually use the Heal much myself - the constant regen from procs is normally sufficient because I take almost no damage in the first place.

 

What I'm trying to point out is that your 'layering' strategy is relatively inefficient. It definitely won't protect you against defense debuffs and your total mitigation is lower than it could be because you're dividing your attention between various different forms of mitigation rather than taking advantage of unusually strong powers and super-linear scaling.

  On 6/10/2020 at 8:27 PM, Sovera said:

All but cold, toxic and psi are at 90%. Two stacks of the ATO and Barrier ensure it. I could decide to get hardcapped resistances without accounting for the ATO + Barrier, but then the ATO stacks and Barrier are useless. I prefer not to follow that course and instead use those tools.

Expand  

Toxic can easily be hard-capped if you've slotted the heal with enough recharge/resist. That's part of the reason I only 5-slot the purple sets - the additional damage procs are always useful, while additional Toxic/Psi is only rarely useful.

 

The issue with the ATO is that while you can easily get two stacks while you're standing in a crowd, you'll probably lose one of those stacks running to the next crowd and consistently getting those stacks against a single hard target (such as AV/GM) isn't reliable. In other words, a dependence on the two stack fails you when you need it the most.

 

In terms of Barrier, I'm having trouble with this argument. Yes, Barrier can give you some resists. But it gives you ridiculous amounts of Defense - far more than you could even hope to get via IOs. If you're activating Barrier, your focus on resists matters a little bit - and your focus on defense matters not at all.

  On 6/10/2020 at 8:27 PM, Sovera said:

Between the huge toxic hole, losing a ton of protection from set bonuses being gone AND running it at +2x8 (told you I was getting 100% cocky 😄) I got *annihilated* by the CoT with their massive spam of -ACC, -defense, and immobilizes.

Expand  

As I noted above, the 'toxic hole' isn't actually a hole - you just need to be proactive about it. Between Combat Jumping and Burn, you should be almost completely immune to Immobilize.

 

For Posi 1, I would drop to ~70% resists (which means I'm taking triple the damage I ordinarily would). However, this wasn't a particularly big deal. The big deal was the ghosts. As fliers, they're not subject to the implicit damage reduction from the KD in the PBAoE (which tends to reduce damage by half or more). They also tend to stay at range, meaning that I have to take them out one at a time rather than being able to blast the entire spawn. Since my accuracy is built around 95% hit chance at 50 for +3, scaling back the accuracy slotted into powers can be a big deal at that level - builds with Tactics tend to exemplar a lot better (presuming they manage to take Tactics before that point).

 

However, even with all those disadvantages, it wasn't an issue of getting outright killed but slowly dying and not being able to kill enemies fast enough solo.

Posted (edited)
  On 6/10/2020 at 8:54 PM, Hjarki said:

You've got it backwards. Soft-capped S/L/M without DDR is meaningless against defensive debuffs - that's why it's called a 'cascading' failure. The difference between having soft-capped defenses and no defenses at all is meaningless in such situations, so it all comes down to resists/healing/regen/control. Builds which emphasize the latter have a much easier time with defense debuffs than builds which don't.

 

Expand  

You're correct here. Against content that does DD. Not all factions do DD though, so while defense will not help against those (it will will for a few hits at least) every other faction in the book that does not DD will have that extra layer of protection. For the ones who do, well, 90% resists will have to do.

 

  On 6/10/2020 at 8:54 PM, Hjarki said:

Toxic can easily be hard-capped if you've slotted the heal with enough recharge/resist. That's part of the reason I only 5-slot the purple sets - the additional damage procs are always useful, while additional Toxic/Psi is only rarely useful.

 

Expand  

 

I don't find Toxic to be present in enough quantity to matter. Low level content is ran at +1 tops and eight people will demolish it anyway. High level content has Toxic, but not in the barbaric quantities that Vhaz has where every minion will spit it. High level is more... what? Toxic Spiders from the Arachnos faction I think? No, wait, there's the hydra in the Tinpex sewers. There I notice the HP being dented though I use Barrier before entering it so it's mitigated.

 

 

  On 6/10/2020 at 8:54 PM, Hjarki said:

The issue with the ATO is that while you can easily get two stacks while you're standing in a crowd, you'll probably lose one of those stacks running to the next crowd and consistently getting those stacks against a single hard target (such as AV/GM) isn't reliable. In other words, a dependence on the two stack fails you when you need it the most.

 

In terms of Barrier, I'm having trouble with this argument. Yes, Barrier can give you some resists. But it gives you ridiculous amounts of Defense - far more than you could even hope to get via IOs. If you're activating Barrier, your focus on resists matters a little bit - and your focus on defense matters not at all.

As I noted above, the 'toxic hole' isn't actually a hole - you just need to be proactive about it. Between Combat Jumping and Burn, you should be almost completely immune to Immobilize.

Expand  

 

ATO two stacking has not been a problem for me. Or perhaps I just consider it okay. It might be like when I thought throwing the proc in the aura was the bee's knees and it turned out not to be so. But when I glance at my monitor I see the nice blue 90% more often than not. I'll make an honest effort at tracking its uptime and will report on it.

 

As for Barrier what is hard to understand? A metric ton of defense *and* resist (Psi/Toxic/Cold which is what's lacking) makes for a good panic button. It makes a for a *great* pre-emptive team savior where we know hard moments will come (sewers in Tinpex, ambush on top of the hill in ITF), and at minimum it's 5% defense and resists added to reach (soft)cap. I mean, what else? Ageless? It's not like we're starving for recharge or endurance.

 

  On 6/10/2020 at 8:54 PM, Hjarki said:

However, even with all those disadvantages, it wasn't an issue of getting outright killed but slowly dying and not being able to kill enemies fast enough solo.

Expand  

Same thing that I had. Stacking yellows and breakfrees (I mistakenly said oranges back there) would have helped a lot, but my friend was half AFK and I did not feel like pushing the envelope.

 

Edited by Sovera
Posted
  On 6/10/2020 at 8:54 PM, Hjarki said:

You've got it backwards. Soft-capped S/L/M without DDR is meaningless against defensive debuffs - that's why it's called a 'cascading' failure. The difference between having soft-capped defenses and no defenses at all is meaningless in such situations, so it all comes down to resists/healing/regen/control. Builds which emphasize the latter have a much easier time with defense debuffs than builds which don't.

 

You're also overlooking the fact that Soul Mastery effectively gives me soft-capped defense to everything if I so choose via -hit debuffs and an additional -20% damage. So, yeah, I'm 'dusting off the damage they do'. I very rarely use Darkest Night, I use Obliteration primarily for damage and Storm Kick is generally only used once a spawn is down to single target, but the options are there.

I don't actually use the Heal much myself - the constant regen from procs is normally sufficient because I take almost no damage in the first place.

 

What I'm trying to point out is that your 'layering' strategy is relatively inefficient. It definitely won't protect you against defense debuffs and your total mitigation is lower than it could be because you're dividing your attention between various different forms of mitigation rather than taking advantage of unusually strong powers and super-linear scaling.

Toxic can easily be hard-capped if you've slotted the heal with enough recharge/resist. That's part of the reason I only 5-slot the purple sets - the additional damage procs are always useful, while additional Toxic/Psi is only rarely useful.

Expand  

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that I did build for layered defense. And it is definitely not meaningless or inefficient. Unless I'm misunderstanding, it sounds like you are telling me my build is bad. But my experience is telling me that I can Tank 100% of the games content easily. Because I have, and am doing so as we speak. Agree to disagree I suppose. Having 45% defense to Melee or S/L is more than worth it.

Posted
  On 6/10/2020 at 8:54 PM, Hjarki said:

You've got it backwards. Soft-capped S/L/M without DDR is meaningless against defensive debuffs - that's why it's called a 'cascading' failure.

 

Expand  


Sorry but no.  Cascading Defense Failure actually refers to the way swarming debuffs make it more likely the next debuff will land, further swarming the effect.

This has nothing to do with DDR.

You can STILL have CDF, even with extensive quantities of DDR.
It just becomes less LIKELY.

If you want to be godlike, pick anything.

If you want to be GOD, pick a TANK!

Posted (edited)

I've been pondering how to min-max my procs.

 

The Gaussian BU proc in Follow-Up seems dubious to me between the ton of slotted recharge in the power, the low native recharge, and also the fast animation.

 

I'm shy about placing the Fury of the Gladiator on the aura since @Boppermathed it at a -6% over time. It's ok, but not amazing.

 

On the other hand with the fast pace of things do I really want to place it on Burn? Much better chance for it to go off there, but the burst damage of Eradication: chance for energy would just help killing things dead instead of debuffing them. That said anything soft will die in the first volley and anything a bit meatier would then be taking extra damage. 20% extra damage VS 71 damage proc.

 

Does Burn still call upon multiple pseudo-pets who then apply procs? That would shift things towards the damage proc instead of the -res proc since that one would not stack.

 

Arrrgh, decisions!

 

Halp, @Bopper wan kenobi!

Edited by Sovera
Posted
  On 6/12/2020 at 7:59 PM, Sovera said:

I've been pondering how to min-max my procs. I'm shy about placing the Fury of the Gladiator on the aura since @Boppermathed it at a -6% over time. It's ok, but not amazing.

 

On the other hand with the fast pace of things do I really want to place it on Burn? Much better chance for it to go off there, but the burst damage of Eradication: chance for energy would just help killing things dead instead of debuffing them. That said anything soft will die in the first volley and anything a bit meatier would then be taking extra damage. 20% extra damage VS 71 damage proc.

 

Does Burn still call upon multiple pseudo-pets who then apply procs? That would shift things towards the damage proc instead of the -res proc since that one would not stack.

 

Arrrgh, decisions!

 

Halp, @Bopper wan kenobi!

Expand  

I'm working on something else at the moment, but I will certainly come to your aid later this afternoon (Like...give me an hour). I will read the thread later, but basically I'll just need to know your build, your attack rotation, and finally I'll need to look up Burn because I think it has some unique proc mechanics that I want to make sure on before I dispense information.


PPM Information Guide               Survivability Tool                  Interface DoT Procs Guide

Time Manipulation Guide             Bopper Builds                      +HP/+Regen Proc Cheat Sheet

Super Pack Drop Percentages       Recharge Guide                   Base Empowerment: Temp Powers


Bopper's Tools & Formulas                         Mids' Reborn                       

Posted
  On 6/12/2020 at 8:35 PM, Bopper said:

I'm working on something else at the moment, but I will certainly come to your aid later this afternoon (Like...give me an hour). I will read the thread later, but basically I'll just need to know your build, your attack rotation, and finally I'll need to look up Burn because I think it has some unique proc mechanics that I want to make sure on before I dispense information.

Expand  

Bopper to the rrrrrrescue! The build is up there. I'm considering respeccing out of Shockwave and grab Assault instead since I find myself not using Shockwave *nearly* as much as on my Scrapper. Spin and Burn has been good enough. Plus I could use those slots and Assault would pump me up some more with just the one slot.

 

The rotation, with a small gap, is Follow-up, Slash, Focus. Burn replaces Slash when it is up. On my own it's not enough to be gapless but in a team with recharge buffs it works fine.

 

For AoE I Follow-Up, Burn, Spin, Focus (fishing for FF procs) and whack-a-mole with Burn and Spin given priority and Follow-Up for the buff, and Focus for the FF proc, down the list.

 

What's your impression of Gaussian in Follow-up? The chance of it coming out seems pretty low, though when it does I nearly always am throwing Burn right after.

Posted
  On 6/12/2020 at 8:59 PM, Sovera said:

Bopper to the rrrrrrescue! The build is up there. I'm considering respeccing out of Shockwave and grab Assault instead since I find myself not using Shockwave *nearly* as much as on my Scrapper. Spin and Burn has been good enough. Plus I could use those slots and Assault would pump me up some more with just the one slot.

 

The rotation, with a small gap, is Follow-up, Slash, Focus. Burn replaces Slash when it is up. On my own it's not enough to be gapless but in a team with recharge buffs it works fine.

 

For AoE I Follow-Up, Burn, Spin, Focus (fishing for FF procs) and whack-a-mole with Burn and Spin given priority and Follow-Up for the buff, and Focus for the FF proc, down the list.

 

What's your impression of Gaussian in Follow-up? The chance of it coming out seems pretty low, though when it does I nearly always am throwing Burn right after.

Expand  

First thing I'd do, I'd replace the Damage/Recharge in Focus with pure Damage. The reduced recharge will help with your FF and Apoc proc, and you have a gap anyways so have two small gaps is no different than one big gap. And if you get buffed by a teammate, the gap will close.

 

Gaussian in Followup isn't doing a whole lot for you (but does well enough). Currently, you have an 11.66% chance to proc every 3.96s (if gapless. 4.686s with gaps) for 80% damage buff that lasts 5.25s. So on average, that equates to 12.37% damage buff (if gapless, 10.45% with gaps). So, for one slot that's good. But if you could reduce the slotted recharge (which would increase gaps) and fill your attack chain with another fast attack or improve your global recharge further, you might like those numbers more. These numbers strictly analyzed for your mentioned ST attack rotation, not AoE.

 

As for Burn, you already saw my previous work with the 3.5 PPM resistance debuff proc in an aura, which equates to 30.7% chance to proc for an average of 6.14% resistance debuff over time (20% x 30.7% x 10s / 10s). If you slot the resistance debuff proc in Burn, I see a cycle rate of 9.9s (2.244s+7.66s), which is similar to the cycle rate of Blazing Aura (10s). The proc probability given your 89.92% recharge slotting gives you a 46.65% chance to proc. However, the power can only hit up to 5 targets whereas Blazing Aura can hit up to 10. So if you're farming, you might prefer Blazing Aura, but if it's normal content I doubt you'd rarely ever hit more than 5 with Blazing Aura anyways. But I digress...

 

So we show Burn has a better chance to proc (46.7% vs 30.7%) with nearly the same cycle time as Blazing Aura (9.9s vs 10s). However, Burn also summons a pseudopet, and I am willing to believe that pet also will give you a chance to proc with 30.7% chance (same radius as Blazing Aura, it would use the 10s activateperiod time). I would need to test this to be certain, but I would suspect Burn gives you 2 proc chances when you cast it...the initial damage from burn, and the pseudopet. The pseudopet lasts for 10s (according to City of Data) so your only proc chance would be on the summoning, and no additional checks after that.

 

Now...the 5 target max of your burn damage, and the 5 target max of the pseudopet does not necessarily mean both effects will HAVE to hit the same 5 targets, but given the fact target selection is based on distance from you (for PBAoEs) and an Immobilize accompanies the Burn effect, it's safe to assume you will hit the same 5 targets with both effects. Given that...and knowing that the Resistance Debuff proc can't stack, we can calculate your probability to be 100% - the probability of neither effect procs.

 

Probability to Proc in Burn = 100% - (100-46.65%)x(100%-30.7%) = 63.03%

 

So your average resistance debuff would equal 63.03% x 20% x 10s / 9.904s = 12.73%

 

Please, take all of my Burn analysis with a grain of salt. I'm basing this entirely off of other things I've tested in the past and assuming these multiple effects as all having their own proc chances (like how Glue Arrow procs off of a single target, then can proc again from the pseudopet). I highly recommend someone (maybe myself) to test this first. But I believe this should work as described...

  • Thanks 1

PPM Information Guide               Survivability Tool                  Interface DoT Procs Guide

Time Manipulation Guide             Bopper Builds                      +HP/+Regen Proc Cheat Sheet

Super Pack Drop Percentages       Recharge Guide                   Base Empowerment: Temp Powers


Bopper's Tools & Formulas                         Mids' Reborn                       

Posted
  On 6/12/2020 at 10:10 PM, Bopper said:

(loadsa info)

Expand  

Hmm.. I come out of this enlightened but not decided. On one hand the +12% final -res chance on Burn still appears to me superior than a damage proc. On the other hand the -res proc does not stack and if anyone else is using it then mine won't do much. Double the chance of a second damage procs would help burst down.... Yep, still as undecided as when I began!

 

I feel that the Gaussian would work better if I were to throw it into Tactics since I'm always teaming anyway. Apparently it's a 50% to go off every ten seconds with a full team around.

Posted (edited)

An alternative build that I am currently trying.

 

I found that I was not using Shockwave enough to warrant have it picked up and slotted. While it was my bread and butter on my Scrapper I just have not found use for it partly because Burn wants me close to the ground where Shockwave I used to hover over the ball of clumped enemies in order to have it act as a ghetto PbAoE. This was a long deliberated decision since Shockwave has a very important soft CC component in it that allows to chew more than we should. But since respecs are cheap and it *was*  gathering dust I'm trying this.

 

- In exchange for the seldomly used Shockwave I picked up Assault. More damage for me and everyone else.

- Used the now free slots to add things here and there. I was displeased at the low accuracy of FU and Slash and took the Kismet unique to make up for it.

- Slightly changed the slotting around based on Bopper's advice. Bit less recharge means bit more chance of procs going off.

- Removed the -res proc in Burn for an Eradication proc. On the long run this might mean less damage. On the short run (and most of CoH's fights are short runs) the double proc is pretty bursty and I can see the HP of things moving in chunks when Burn goes off, then the double procs do, then the pseudopet double procs as well. I'm not super fussed about the Fury -res proc since it does not stack and it is a common thing to have in teams.

 

The extra recovery added from the new slots has been good at offsetting the cost of Assault. With absolutely no support endurance goes down, but slowly, and I have found that I still have a quarter of a bar by the time Consume has recharged. This is a delicate balance perturbed by any sort of endurance drain but I have Recovery Serums for those moments. Most of the time endurance is simple full since someone in the team throws an Ageless (pretty common incarnate due to said recovery but also recharge) or we have someone with an endurance boost. Seriously, endurance is a non worry.

 

With Focus having to pick the slack for FF procs my usual ST rotation is Follow-up, Burn, Focus (fish boy, fish!), Follow-up, Slash, Focus, Follow-up, Burn. This is why I don't have the purple damage proc in Slash.

 

For AoE it's still the same: Follow-up, Burn (star of the show), Spin (after Burn so the 2.5 animation happens while the recharge is ticking), Focus (fish, boy, fish!), Slash, Follow-up, Burn, Spin.

 

 

Alternative build:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I've also added a leveling build I made for a friend I convinced to play the game with me. It's a *lot* cheaper and still has 40% defenses (45% with Barrier) and the resistances are still capped with two ATO stacks and Barrier's 5%. So it has everything a Tanker needs to tank. The trade offs are a worse Hasten and less damage due to no procs in attacks but it will do just fine to burn the content until money is amassed.

Edited by Sovera
Posted

Just to point something out, all my testing with Burn on my Tanker and Scrapper shows that Burn only hits 4 targets no matter how many are in range.   My wild assumption is that because your character is always the 5th target as Burn grants you immobilization.   Not sure how it impacts the debuff proc but for my scrapper, I can proc the +50% Crit proc off just myself, no enemy in range.

Posted

Finally got off my lazy ass to test the build VS a pylon.

 

Titan Weapons and double Rage Super-Strength are still the reigning champs, but, unlike Super-Strength with its only AoE at 38 (and rage at 28) and Titan Weapons being a hot mess if exemplaring is attempted this one is good to go from level 20 onwards. 15 if exemplared.

Posted

Ran some testing that turned into a wash.

 

Traded Gaussian in FU for a Touch of Death.

 

Traded the Eradication damage proc in Burn for the -res proc.

 

End result: exactly the same times.

 

 

According to Bopper the Gaussian only has something like 11% chance of going off. 11% giving 80% damage for 5 seconds is not tremendous and it showed when 41% chance of doing 71 damage kept up. Gaussian where it is is not doing much though where it is. It does feed both the AoE chain and the ST chain when it does go off. But since neither makes a difference on the long run I'm tempted by the damage proc for a bit more burst.

 

The -20% res in Burn did not alter times in the slightest, which sort of makes sense since the 46% of the Eradication damage proc going off pairs very well with Burn's pseudo pet for a second chance. The -res proc not stacking means double the chance of procing did not synergize well. I feel that  Eradication is still a better choice since it gives burst and the -res effect is unique (AKA if someone else in the team has it then it will not stack if both have/use it).

Posted
  On 7/27/2020 at 1:44 PM, Sovera said:

The -20% res in Burn did not alter times in the slightest, which sort of makes sense since the 46% of the Eradication damage proc going off pairs very well with Burn's pseudo pet for a second chance. The -res proc not stacking means double the chance of procing did not synergize well. I feel that  Eradication is still a better choice since it gives burst and the -res effect is unique (AKA if someone else in the team has it then it will not stack if both have/use it).

Expand  

Just found out that sticking a chance for knockdown in burn has some doubletap unintended consequences. I'll look into using eradication instead of chance for -res. Was hoping the -res was the way to go but thanks for testing.

Posted
  On 7/27/2020 at 1:52 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Just found out that sticking a chance for knockdown in burn has some doubletap unintended consequences. I'll look into using eradication instead of chance for -res. Was hoping the -res was the way to go but thanks for testing.

Expand  

The double tap from KD-turning-it-into-KB is something I had read about. The absorb proc ATO might work well in Burn instead if looking for mitigation.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...