Weekly Discussion 56: Traps

[Redlynne]

32 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Is there anyone opposed to nuking Time Bomb and starting over fresh with an entirely new Power there?

YES.

Unfortunately I've been composing posts for the past 4+ hours straight in other threads so I'm going to have to defer my contribution to this thread till another day ...

[Sir Myshkin]

For what it's worth, I'll throw my vote on these:

 

• Triage Beacon should be a one-out-only drop with the same cooldown as FFG making it easy to replenish at every spawn.
• Time Bomb should be a gun drone that sacrifices itself like a seeker drone after 60/s but with a 90/s duration to make sure a player can take advantage of it.

 

Things I personally find less than useful:

• Trip Mines - they take too long to utilize, they should be TAoE mines we can "toss" within a small range (10') within 1.188-1.32 seconds. I see this as "line the hall as I run through in a hurry" kind of tactics, and if it still carries a recharge that forces 5-10/s cooldown, that's manageable. As it stands right now, with a FF+Rech in the power and a small consideration for Global Rech, I can sit and stack Trip Mines indefinitely until about ~45-50 of them are sitting on top of each other. It takes like two minutes to do it, but whatever.
  • Up the damage a bit, shorten the "set" time, make it viable to drop a couple of these per spawn as quick little "boom booms".
• Seeker Drones - I've never seen these as anything more than decorative flair. Their explosive qualities are "meh" at best. These would be much better suited as some kind of group buffing utility like a Tactics/Assault combo that spreads to the any team mate within a fixed radius (20-25').
  • In this thread alone I'm not the only one who feels the Seeker's are a "meh" choice, but my consideration for them is a bit abnormal in wanting to turn them into a buff tool instead of a rather weak bomb.
  • +10% ToHit, +15% Dam, +Perception
    • Actually, giving it a bit more thought I think it'd be kind of neat for there to be three drones that float around the caster within 5-10' based on qualifying power choices. Knowing that the functionality exists due to Fighting Pool (Boxing, Kick, Cross Punch being stronger based on power selection), then have one of each qualifying drones spawn from "Seeker" ability based on correlating picks. If FFG is taken, get a defense-augmenting drone (3%-5%), if Triage is taken get a +ToHit and Perception drone, and if Trip Mines are taken, get a +15% Dam granting drone, all team based.

 

 

[DSorrow]

IMO, Traps suffers from the problem that it's incredibly powerful against stationary targets, but feels utterly useless in fast moving teams. Unfortunately, there are very few (none, really) strong, stationary foes in the game where the strength of Traps would truly shine compared to other support sets, and 99% of the game is moving fast across a map. As a player this basically results in a gameplay experience where I feel like my other powerset is doing most of the work as the long cooldowns and setup animations allow me to use maybe 1 or 2 Traps powers per spawn.

 

I'm not sure how this problem could be solved without changing Traps too much, but I think either cooldowns and animation times need to be reduced across the board or many of the powers should be changed into mobile drones that follow you, much like FFG, but hopefully with better speed and pathing.

[TaxibotJoe]

Giving Traps a modern make-over into a mobile drone fighter would bring it closer to the current style of play. The recharges are all high compared to newer sets, but it is the lack of mobility and range that punishes the set as a whole.

1. Web Grenade
   • ok as is; short cooldown immobilize comparable to other T1 immobilizers
2. Caltrops
   • ok as is; surprisingly good with procs
3. Triage Beacon
   • change to mobile drone; cut recharge, but restrict to single instance like FFG
4. Acid Mortar
   • change to mobile drone; cut recharge, but restrict to single instance like FFG
5. Force Field Generator
   • ok as is; could use better pathing, but that is true for mobile summons in general
6. Poison Trap
   • make throwable
7. Seeker Drones
   • debuffs are weak for cooldown; reduce recharge or increase debuff values
8. Trip Mine
   • make throwable
9. Time Bomb
   • replace with Gun Drone summons (or Omega Maneuver)

[xl8]

On 6/21/2020 at 11:24 AM, Zepp said:

Triage Beacon might need to be mobilized.

Problem solved.

[Redlynne]

10 minutes ago, xl8 said:

On 6/21/2020 at 10:24 AM, Zepp said:

Triage Beacon might need to be mobilized.

Problem solved.

Change it from a Click for static deployment to instead be a PBAoE Toggle and make it look like one of these ...

 

 

 

... except with green laser light beams coming out of it instead of blue or red.

 

Problem of mobility REALLY solved.

[Coyote]

I would like to see Time Bomb changed into Explosive Drones... like Seeker Drones, but they will follow you and go and detonate when they aggro on something. So you can still use it PBAoE or pre-activate it and move around and still get some use out of them. Like Photon Seekers.

 

Detonator could get the same effect, I think. Otherwise, make its Recharge lower and have it give some hefty debuffs, not only raw damage, so that you can sacrifice a henchman and turn a battle... an AoE explosion is good for clearing easy fights, but for easy fights do you really want to be sacrificing summonables all the time? And if it's a hard fight, then the damage probably isn't enough to turn it. And it's usually a hard fight because mobs spread everywhere and my henchmen are running in separate directions, so an AoE is likely to miss many of them. Some damage with a big -ToHit/-Damage debuff could turn a battle better than any damage lower than Overwhelming.

[Chronos]

It's true that Traps isn't good for the same things as other sets.  That's a feature, not a bug.  Sure, when I'm moving fast, I'm not using much besides Caltrops, Seeker Drones, and Force Field Generator...  but on a hard, slow fight, you can set up one heck of a killzone.  Especially if the villain is one who monologues before attacking.  It's the kind of set that can turn a fight from impossible to winnable.

 

Web Grenade:  It's not entirely useless.  When I set up a Zone of Pain, I don't want enemies just running out of it.  Still, if it were skippable, I probably would.

 

Caltrops:  Great.  No change needed.

 

Triage Beacon:  OK, it's kind of weak as heals go, but then, Traps isn't really a healing-focused set.  Probably OK as-is, though making it mobile might not be a bad idea.

 

Acid Mortar:  Fine as-is.  My only complaint is that it (and Seeker Drones) can't take pet enhancements.  I mean, they even show up in the pet window and everything.  This would remove a lot of the pressure on masterminds without an instant-army power.

 

Force Field Generator:  I've never had any problems with it keeping up, but then, my trapper uses Ninja Run/Sprint in lieu of a travel power.

 

Seeker Drones:  Same as Acid Mortar.  Fine as-is, but should take pet enhancements.

 

Poison Trap:  It seems like its triggering radius is too short--  An enemy needs to be right on top of it for it to go off.  I'd increase the trigger radius to match the cloud radius.  Otherwise fine:  A great situational tool for AVs with high regen.

 

Trip Mines:  See introductory comments.  They're a large part of what makes Traps what it is.  Maybe reduce the interrupt time to make them at least a little useable in the thick of combat...  Or maybe make them work like snipes, where you can use them in combat for lower damage?  But don't change them too much.

 

Detonator:  If my pets die, I die.  It's not worth the cost, unless it's enough to completely end a fight all by itself, and in that case, it'd be overpowered.  Probably should be replaced entirely.

[Galaxy Brain]

15 hours ago, Redlynne said:

YES.

Unfortunately I've been composing posts for the past 4+ hours straight in other threads so I'm going to have to defer my contribution to this thread till another day ...

I am very curious, as I am of the opinion that Time Bomb in most any form is out-done by Trip Mine by itself. How do you make Time Bomb a viable pick compared to Trip Mine without making it downright silly?

[Jeneki]

21 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Sacrilege!! It should do triple the damage and take 3 times as long! 😛

And anyone within range should have their camera lock on and slowly rotate around you, so everyone can bask in your glory!

Edited June 23, 2020 by Jeneki

[Redlynne]

40 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I am very curious, as I am of the opinion that Time Bomb in most any form is out-done by Trip Mine by itself. How do you make Time Bomb a viable pick compared to Trip Mine without making it downright silly?

Working on it.

[Peacemoon]

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Change it from a Click for static deployment to instead be a PBAoE Toggle and make it look like one of these ...

 

 

 

... except with green laser light beams coming out of it instead of blue or red.

 

Problem of mobility REALLY solved.

Well if you went down this road you might as well keep it as a beacon, but have a secondary effect of making the FFG also act as a triage beacon. That way you could be followed by a really helpful buff drone but still put down a stationary beacon when you wanted to.

[Peacemoon]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I am very curious, as I am of the opinion that Time Bomb in most any form is out-done by Trip Mine by itself. How do you make Time Bomb a viable pick compared to Trip Mine without making it downright silly?

Turn it into a different type of Time Bomb - like an EMP bomb.

Keep it how it is currently stats wise (cottage rule sorted), but add extra powerful debuffs worthy of the long recharge and hard setup time. 
Im thinking like how EMP Pulse works for Rad, Or something more creative.

Traps is a buff/debuff set, so it’s pretty unusual to have a pure damage ability with no side effects.

[JayboH]

Just clone the Omega Maneuver.  I've always thought at least on paper that the Omega Maneuver sounds brilliant.

[Primantis]

19 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

• Seeker Drones - I've never seen these as anything more than decorative flair. Their explosive qualities are "meh" at best. These would be much better suited as some kind of group buffing utility like a Tactics/Assault combo that spreads to the any team mate within a fixed radius (20-25').

 

 

 

 

I'll be honest, I seldom use Seekers as anything other than "alpha sponges", and view their debuffs as a nice secondary effect that might come in useful if they actually explode next to targets worth debuffing.

Doing so gives you a few good seconds to set up your PGT or whatever you wanna do next. (Or just lets the team rush in without worry of the alpha if you have no tank, or the tank is too timid)

[drbuzzard2]

2 hours ago, JayboH said:

Just clone the Omega Maneuver.  I've always thought at least on paper that the Omega Maneuver sounds brilliant.

Yeah, maybe on paper it looks good. In practice it's about as good as time bomb. Recharge is hugely long for a meh amount of damage, and the aggro doesn't really do a good job of pulling things in. Tried it on my crab spider and respecced out of it in short order after a lot of use.

[Sir Myshkin]

2 hours ago, Primantis said:

Doing so gives you a few good seconds to set up your PGT or whatever you wanna do next.

This kind of proves the point that the drones aren't really doing an effective, versatile, or generally useful job if you're using them to just soak an alpha constantly because they lack any other form of worth based on their current design (limited damage and debuff).

 

I played a BR/Traps Corr on Retail, and am working on a Traps/"AR" Defender currently here. In the former build I took the Seekers for RP aesthetics, and the Trip Mines as a gag for when teams had waiting lulls between tasks and I'd just sit and see how many I could stack before we moved again. In the later build I skipped all three of the last abilities because they just lack function and realistic use. I'd sooner take Weaken Resolve to at least pump up team damage with the -Res (and in fact, I did).

 

I mean... seriously Caltrops with three damage procs is better damage performance than Seeker Drones, Trip Mine, or Time Bomb.

[Galaxy Brain]

Itd be nice if Seekers had the exact same rech as Trip mines and you could amass a swarm of them, or pop one out mid-fight. Reduce the spawned seekers to 1 tho

[ImpousVileTerror]

Sounding like the overall community's order of priority for fixing is:
1st:  Time Bomb

2nd:  Detonator
3rd:  Trip Mine

4th:  Seeker Drones

5th:  Web Grenade

last:  Triage Beacon

 

(the order is perhaps a little different for those last three)

[Primantis]

56 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

This kind of proves the point that the drones aren't really doing an effective, versatile, or generally useful job if you're using them to just soak an alpha constantly because they lack any other form of worth based on their current design (limited damage and debuff).

 

I played a BR/Traps Corr on Retail, and am working on a Traps/"AR" Defender currently here. In the former build I took the Seekers for RP aesthetics, and the Trip Mines as a gag for when teams had waiting lulls between tasks and I'd just sit and see how many I could stack before we moved again. In the later build I skipped all three of the last abilities because they just lack function and realistic use. I'd sooner take Weaken Resolve to at least pump up team damage with the -Res (and in fact, I did).

 

I mean... seriously Caltrops with three damage procs is better damage performance than Seeker Drones, Trip Mine, or Time Bomb.

 

I agree with everything you've said!

 

I take both Seeker Drones and Trip Mine mostly for the 'neat' factor, and get marginal use out of them. 

 

Trip Mine can also be used to "fish' for the Force Feedback +Rch proc; as it has a 90% chance to go off after you lay one. Which can come in handy from time to time. But its used almost entirely for the Lulz

 

If seekers "readied" faster and their debuff had a much larger AoE I think they'd be much more useful in their intended purpose.  They can take forever to go off sometimes (and I'm still not sure if they apply the debuff upon death or not? I think they do, but I'm not sure)

 

 

 

Also, anyone remember when Poison Trap was an absolute proc *monster*? That was a fun time!

Edited June 24, 2020 by Primantis

[JayboH]

1 hour ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Sounding like the overall community's order of priority for fixing is:
1st:  Time Bomb

2nd:  Detonator
3rd:  Trip Mine

4th:  Seeker Drones

5th:  Web Grenade

last:  Triage Beacon

 

(the order is perhaps a little different for those last three)

Mine:

 

1st: Triage Beacon

2nd: Detonator/Time Bomb

 

I like Seeker Drones for soaking alpha and debuffs.  Shorter recharge would be nice, but doesn't need much.

 

Nothing wrong with Web Grenade really.  Trip Mines aren't that bad.

 

What if Acid Mortar had its resistance debuffed removed and the tier 9 was the sonic grenades that longbow get?

 

...or, how about Seeker Drones become the tier 9 with a larger damage component, and instead earlier in the tiers we get a droppable Circle of Thorns +endurance crystal (in a device form) to go with Triage Beacon?

Edited June 24, 2020 by JayboH

[JayboH]

10 hours ago, drbuzzard2 said:

Yeah, maybe on paper it looks good. In practice it's about as good as time bomb. Recharge is hugely long for a meh amount of damage, and the aggro doesn't really do a good job of pulling things in. Tried it on my crab spider and respecced out of it in short order after a lot of use.

Well, number tweaks aren't against the rules; adjust accordingly

 

EDIT:  noticed they have the exact same recharge: 6 minutes, which is very long - although Omega has a 2 second cast time and no interrupt

Edited June 24, 2020 by JayboH

[drbuzzard2]

Yeah, but look at the damage. Longer than a nuke recharge and damage well below a nuke (on an AT with a 1.0 damage scalar).

[JayboH]

8 minutes ago, drbuzzard2 said:

Yeah, but look at the damage. Longer than a nuke recharge and damage well below a nuke (on an AT with a 1.0 damage scalar).

hmm...  but that might be ok in this case, considering trip mine and it's in a support set.  I guess Oil Slick in support sets is unique but it does take a good while for the damage to be dealt.  I don't count Fallout because of the player death requirement.

[drbuzzard2]

If real damage isn't an option, I'd rather have something which does a support oriented purpose so buffing or debuffing.