If You Could Change Sentinels, How Would You Do It? (Another Take)

[Bill Z Bubba]

40 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

It feels like a flashback to the original release Peacebringer and the Jack/Castle Era.

No. I remember original release Khels with their massive -damres if solo bullshit. I remember being one-shotted by quantums. I remember screaming on the forums for years.

Sentinels are tankmages on their own. Compared to release date Khels they might as well be an "I Win" button.

[marcussmythe]

Oh, in absolute terms, I agree.  Khelds were worse.  But just like with release Khelds, with Sentinels I have this sense of ‘bad by design’.

[drbuzzard]

I think you are being rather hyperbolic. Sentinels are nowhere near as bad as you describe them. I think they need help, but they are not an utter train wreck (like khelds out of the box). Really sentinels need a bit more damage and they will be OK. Your suggestions were way too powerful. Though perhaps that's how the first iteration on the test server should be started and then whittled down from there.

 

When we compare blasters and sentinels completely to the advantage of blasters, it's at end game with incarnate abilities, builds which cost around a billion influence, and the PPPs thrown in. This isn't the whole game. I'll admit, I like that part more, but I oddly enough also like sentinels. Truth is, sentinels have a much easier ride to 50 than blasters, so for those who don't just PL alts up to 50, and deck them out from farming money, they are a pleasant AT which is fun to play, lacking the frustration of taking a blaster up the levels. There is a space for them in the game, they just don't have a very compelling space at the top end of power at endgame.

[marcussmythe]

I love my sentinels, and they are great fun to play at all levels.

 

In a game that stopped at 40 and was limited to SOs, they would be in a lovely spot.

 

But the game doesnt stop there, and we have potentially forever at 50 - and set bonuses can stretch a looong way down with exemplaring or hand me down money.

 

Ultimately, IO sets, incarnates, etc. just throw everything for a loop, and some things are winners or losers by comparison - you can make a Blaster survive almost everything a Sentinel can, the reverse is not the case, and until there are IOs that gave set or individual modifiers to an ATs base damage scale, in the same fashion/degree they hand out survival, that wont change.

[Haijinx]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:43 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I don't know where the "sentinels should be ranged scrappers" thing came from but it's an incredibly stupid idea unless the value for their mitigation sets are drastically reduced. For those that don't believe that range = mitigation, go hover above any faction at max diff and compare the incoming damage to being in melee with that same group.

 

You are wrong. Full stop.

 

To give sentinels scrapper level damage on top of scrapper level mitigation and the mitigation that comes from being at range is ludicrous. I hope that the HC devs understand that.

That's why I'd suggest if they want to go the "ranged scrapper" route, lower range again to 40 feet. 

 

Which would probably be workable. 

 

Mitigation could probably be reduced slightly, small changes would probably be rendered meaningless due to IOs though.

[drbuzzard]

The fixation some people have on mitigation is a bit odd IMO.

 

Mitigation doesn't get you experience. Mitigation doesn't get you influence. Mitigation doesn't get you drops. It does allow you to do certain things if you push the envelope and take on the hardest stuff around, but the examples one has to come up with are basically piss poor when one looks at return on time. Solo an ITF? Sure, there went an hour+ which could have gained you much more doing something else. Mitigation past a certain point doesn't do diddly squat for most people. For people trying to set records on the hardest stuff I suppose it does.

 

Of course we also play in a game where people can simply AFK farm without actually playing, basically a step away from the auto granting functions on the test server. That makes it hard to care much about the rate at which one collects rewards while playing.

 

It seems to me that the devs must think at least somewhat like I do since they substantially upped the damage output of the most durable AT in the game recently. I think the idea was that being tough as an impervium ingot is all well and good, but if it bores the crap out of everyone so the AT doesn't get played because being inert is not appealing, you might want to change that.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

That's why I'd suggest if they want to go the "ranged scrapper" route, lower range again to 40 feet. 

 

Which would probably be workable. 

 

Mitigation could probably be reduced slightly, small changes would probably be rendered meaningless due to IOs though.

I did mention once to lower mitigation some more to allow for a dps increase. Lowering range to 40' is acceptable also. With the Sentinels reduced range and targets and a lower mitigation cap than Scrappers, that should allow them to have high dps. The Opportunity buff should affect all Sentinel powers also and not just the T1/T2 powers.

 

Opportunity could be a buff to AoE targets for a duration, whilst the Sentinel has a reduced AoE rest of the time. Or a Team wide Build up power. Or just a massive single target attack power. Plenty of options.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

53 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

The fixation some people have on mitigation is a bit odd IMO.

 

Mitigation doesn't get you experience. Mitigation doesn't get you influence. Mitigation doesn't get you drops. It does allow you to do certain things if you push the envelope and take on the hardest stuff around, but the examples one has to come up with are basically piss poor when one looks at return on time. Solo an ITF? Sure, there went an hour+ which could have gained you much more doing something else. Mitigation past a certain point doesn't do diddly squat for most people. For people trying to set records on the hardest stuff I suppose it does.

 

Of course we also play in a game where people can simply AFK farm without actually playing, basically a step away from the auto granting functions on the test server. That makes it hard to care much about the rate at which one collects rewards while playing.

 

It seems to me that the devs must think at least somewhat like I do since they substantially upped the damage output of the most durable AT in the game recently. I think the idea was that being tough as an impervium ingot is all well and good, but if it bores the crap out of everyone so the AT doesn't get played because being inert is not appealing, you might want to change that.

Being faceplanted drops DPS to zero. When solo that means zero XP gain. More mitigation means more up time which means more XP/rewards.
It ALSO allows us to do stupid <insert AT> tricks here.

Some of us are hung up on mitigation vs damage output and the balance of those amongst the ATs because that's how the game was supposed to be balanced.

Granted, looking at everything that's been changed since the snap does seem to show that balance means precisely dick nowadays.

[Omega-202]

11 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

 Give the thing full range, full AOE caps, full Scrapper HP and Secondary Values and Damage Scalar.  Grats, now you have a ranged scrapper.  

Pick 3 or 4 of the 5 things there and try that first.  If you do all 5, you have made something that objectively outclasses Blasters and Scrappers.  

 

I fully agree with the range, AoE and defense scalars being fixed.  Damage scalar could use a bump to 1.0.  But also upping the HP and bumping the damage to 1.125 reverses the whole problem and gives you the best of a Scrapper and a Blaster in one package, invalidating both of those ATs.

 

EDIT: as a point of reference, fixing the range, AoE caps, and defensive scalars and setting damage scalar to 1.0 basically makes Sentinels into VEATs, who are balanced to OP depending on the build. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Omega-202

[marcussmythe]

As a point of reference, VEATS get a huge amount of tools that the Sentinel does not.

 

Further, given that Scrappers exist, and Scrappers with ranged attacks (pretty good ones!) exist.. and yet the world is not dominated by Blaster-Scrappers - I cant wrap my brain around how taking, say, a Claws Scrapper (one good ranged attack, one big cone) that can take more blasts out of EPPs... and then giving it a few more ranged attacks, while taking away criticals - is going to change the world.

[Omega-202]

12 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

... and then giving it a few more ranged attacks

And a 90s mini nuke, and a third/fourth/fifth decent AoE attack to chain, now with the AoE nerf removed...

EDIT: not to mention EPP/PPP AoEs for Scrappers have 3x the cooldown.  

 

You're underselling how much better Blast sets are at endgame lawnmowing over Melee sets.  

 

And regarding VEATs and their toolkit: my previous proposal in the other thread was to give Sentinels some of those tools, namely supportive auras as part of their revamped inherent.  

 

My thought is "We have a template for what Sentinels could/should be already, but they're stuck in an Arachnos coat of paint".  It would be way more acceptable in my mind to have Sentinels step on the toes of VEATs than to have them step on the toes of Blasters and Scrappers.  

Edited July 16, 2020 by Omega-202

[marcussmythe]

I had not read your other thread, Omega.  If you can find a place to put double-leadership, AOE, Single Target, Crowd Control, Pet Summoning, and utterly mind-melting DPS along with pocket nukes into a Sentinel... be my guest.  (VEATS are brokenly good and I dont know why they arent everywhere.  All they do is everything, well, all at once, while solo and better on teams.  Must be the Arachnos coat of paint)

[drbuzzard]

43 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Being faceplanted drops DPS to zero. When solo that means zero XP gain. More mitigation means more up time which means more XP/rewards.
It ALSO allows us to do stupid <insert AT> tricks here.

Some of us are hung up on mitigation vs damage output and the balance of those amongst the ATs because that's how the game was supposed to be balanced.

Granted, looking at everything that's been changed since the snap does seem to show that balance means precisely dick nowadays.

Yeah, but blasters (at endgame of course) don't really faceplant. When survivability is good enough for a 4 person blaster team to do a Master of Imperious Task force with no inspirations in 30 minutes, mitigation isn't really something to get fixated on. If the 'least' durable AT can blow through a reasonably hard TF when they set it to be as hard as possible, then a defensive secondary on a sentinel is like putting an bullet proof vest on an Abrahms tank. Except in this case the tank doesn't really have much of a gun on it.

 

In a game without PPPs, IOs, and the blaster upgrades  that happened right before the snap, sure. In an SO game, sentinel secondaries are wonderful, and being alive is a DPS consideration. We just don't happen to play in that game.

Edited July 16, 2020 by drbuzzard

[Omega-202]

2 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

I had not read your other thread, Omega.  If you can find a place to put double-leadership, AOE, Single Target, Crowd Control, Pet Summoning, and utterly mind-melting DPS along with pocket nukes into a Sentinel... be my guest.  (VEATS are brokenly good and I dont know why they arent everywhere.  All they do is everything, well, all at once, while solo and better on teams.  Must be the Arachnos coat of paint)

Its in the original "If you could fix Sentinels" thread.  

 

And trust me, I know how broken VEATs can be, go check the VEAT forum and seem how many people have riffed on my Crab build. 

 

But also, no single VEAT build has all of those things you listed.  They can do each of them, but no build has enough slots for all of those things at once.  My Crabbermind, for example, can only squeeze in 3 leadership toggles, and has the classic Crabbermind flaw of "less than stellar" personal single target DPS.

 

In short, my proposal for Sentinels is to scrap Opportunity and replace it with an inherent that provides 3 mutually exclusive Auras that effect them and their team.  For example "Charge!" can give +Recovery/+Damage, "Lookout" can give +tohit/+defense and "Hunker Down" can give +Res/+Regen.  To me Opportunity failed to embody a "Sentinel" as the guardian/spotter theme they were going for, but this would fit more with that theme.  

[Gobbledigook]

The Sentinel has enough handicaps in AoE and range to warrant better damage or at least make Opportunity wanted enough by teams to offset the reduced dps/AoE.

 

Veats have good damage with none of the handicaps of a Sentinel and bring team buffs along also.

 

A blaster has far higher dps, more range and more AoE targets. Damage is a form of survival.

 

Scrappers have higher damage, higher health, better mitigation than the Sentinel and criticals on top. Just compare Scrappers Lightning Rod to Sentinels Nova for example.

 

I think just turn the Sentinel into the range Brute version of Blasters and be done with it lol.

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Omega-202 said:

the classic Crabbermind flaw of "less than stellar" personal single target DPS.

Agreed, and I'm glad you own it.  The Crabbermind has always had a lot of its strength in summoned NPCs.  No one should be pretending that summoned NPCs don't do silly amounts of damage when they can actually live to do it.  Crabs built this way can stack several of them at once.  Its not like anyone is praising Longfang or Channelgun with any level of seriousness.  If Venom Grenade didn't have a resistance debuff attached to it I wouldn't expect people to gush about it either.  

 

I absolutely LOVED my SOA in classic.  It was one of the few builds I had that dumped absurd amounts of influence into before shutdown.  

 

1 hour ago, Omega-202 said:

In short, my proposal for Sentinels is to scrap Opportunity and replace it with an inherent that provides 3 mutually exclusive Auras that effect them and their team.  For example "Charge!" can give +Recovery/+Damage, "Lookout" can give +tohit/+defense and "Hunker Down" can give +Res/+Regen.  To me Opportunity failed to embody a "Sentinel" as the guardian/spotter theme they were going for, but this would fit more with that theme.  

I'm guessing these toggles would have flat effects?  Would they have an endurance drain or be free of charge?  Would they scale with team size?  How would the value of these rate across the gameplay spectrum.  What I mean here is that +Rec/+Damage is going to see a lot of use.  It may be the single toggle used at all times in the end game.  I could see a love for using a +tohit/+defense prior to the SO/IO quality changes around level 22.  +Res/+Regen seems like the weakest one of the three.  Would these stack per Sentinel or only one toggle works?  I dig the gist of the idea, but obviously I have lots of questions!

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

The Sentinel has enough handicaps in AoE and range to warrant better damage or at least make Opportunity wanted enough by teams to offset the reduced dps/AoE

 

Do you find yourself saying the following things when you say "Looking for group": 

 

1) Gosh... I really wish we had someone with Containment on our team.  

2) Gee willikers... we really need Scourge on this team.  We've got a lot of options to push damage when targets get below 50% health.  

3) Holy inherent Statesman... if only we had a Kheld to make our teams more adaptive! 

4) You know what?  Its clobbering time, and we need critical hits.  Get me a Stalker over a Scrapper because their inherent is more controlled.  

 

If you don't find yourself really scrutinizing the inherents and how they interact with your team, then why on Earth is this an issue with Sentinels?  I think people look at the sum of all parts of an AT when they assess value.  I really doubt most people think of Brutes down to Fury vs a Tanker's Gauntlet.  Instead, people just know that Brutes and Tankers are highly durable with one leaning more in that direction over the other.  Most players aren't brain dead.  They understand the core gist of mechanics.  

People should enjoy having Sentinels around because they contribute to the overall effectiveness of the team.  That can mean a lot more than just Opportunity.  

I know I'm being kind of nitpicky, but reading statements like this only fuel "Sentinels have no role" garbage.  Its like trying to pigeon hole the AT into something because there is some contrived notion this game needs roles.  Ever play on an all Defender team?  Ask those how it feels to not have a Tanker.  I'll bet they're all quaking in their boots.  /s 

 

Opportunity just needs to fit the spirit of the AT while contributing something worthwhile to that vision.  If it is a group scale buff, then cool.  If it is a personal effect, then cool.  It just needs to function in a manner that is accessible to all level ranges and easy enough to understand.  That's it.  This whole "opportunity needs to be wanted by groups" is just going to lead to disappointment and division where it doesn't need to exist. 

 

P.S., I do understand the feeling that Sentinels could have something to make them seem different.  I'm just of a mind that having a range set plus defense set is already unique.  Wishing their inherent as a means to make them acceptable to the community seems a bit like missing the point when so many other inherents aren't reasons why ATs hold intrinsic value.  Their inherents may add value to their innate design goals but these are just component pieces that make the AT's perceived to be good or not.  Also, most inherents are weaker than legit powers.  Some have fairly dramatic effects, but most feel more like an IO proc.  So I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high that Opportunity itself is going to be something that makes or break this AT.  It just needs to be a useful tool in a much broader tool kit.  If the intent behind the original comment, or others even remotely like it, aren't as black and white as they look -- forgive me.  Its just I'm interpreting what I read here and how it comes across from my own perspective.  The feels expressed about the value of Opportunity still have merit even if I am being a bit of a Devil's Advocate to discuss it from a different angle.  I just want to keep the peace. 😉 

Edited July 16, 2020 by oldskool

[Omega-202]

20 minutes ago, oldskool said:

I'm guessing these toggles would have flat effects?  Would they have an endurance drain or be free of charge?  Would they scale with team size?  How would the value of these rate across the gameplay spectrum.  What I mean here is that +Rec/+Damage is going to see a lot of use.  It may be the single toggle used at all times in the end game.  I could see a love for using a +tohit/+defense prior to the SO/IO quality changes around level 22.  +Res/+Regen seems like the weakest one of the three.  Would these stack per Sentinel or only one toggle works?  I dig the gist of the idea, but obviously I have lots of questions!

That's what testing and tweaking would be for.

 

My general starting point would be:

- No end cost toggle, 60ft radius, 1s activation to make swapping in battle a tactical choice

- Stack from multiple Sentinels

- Values are unenhanceable, start low at lvl 1 (eg 5% tohit/def) and ramp up as you level (eg at level 50, 10% tohit/def)

- Values would need to be tweaked based on testing so they all have value.  If everyone is running the damage one 24/7, maybe the others need a boost, or the damage buff needs to drop.  But if the damage buff is only 15% (same as VEAT Assault), I don't see that being such a gamebreaker that you'd always pick it over something like 10% tohit/def or 15% resist to all/200% regen.  There's a reason a lot of support builds skip Assault, but take Tactics and Manuevers.  And if that still doesn't help with variety at endgame, so be it.  Endgame is a damage race anyway.  

 

This would make Sentinels a clear team player and an immediate asset to the team.  

 

EDIT: also, slap a token +res to mez or something on any toggle that ends up with +Def so its flagged to not be affected by PowerBoost effects.  I can already see that being an issue ala Time's boosted defense buff.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Omega-202

[TripleDouble]

So far, I have very much enjoyed the Sentinel, and feel like it actually makes more sense thematically for the Heros-side then blaster. I recall back in the day wishing I could make an Ironman like character, but never feeling that 'armored' feeling with my Blasters. But what I like the more about the Sentinel is its teamwork aspect.

 

I see so many people complaining about the Sentinel not doing enough damage and just think "But its not suppose to do all the damage itself". Much in the way a Tanker or Defender adds to the damage of others, the Sentinels "Opportunity" is a massive damage boost, not just for them, but the whole team! Sentinels deal more damage then Defenders and help the team deal more too. My real issue is that the Opportunity effects aren't strong ENOUGH for teams! What I don;t want to see is a more self-focused Sentinel that helps the team less then it already does. There can be a balance between doing more damage then a Defender, having more durability then Stalker and buffing/protecting the team more then the Blaster.

 

I suggest a few things (probably too much, sorry):

• One, if not too much is to be changed, is to give the Sentinel a "Opportunity" activating power, the same as the Dominator has the "Domination" power. When the bar is full (or near full), you can activate it and then your next T1/T2 attack does the Opportunity shot. This solves the T1/T2 problem of not having control when exactly you want to activate it (this is a minor issue, but I have found it annoying to accidentally fire off my Opportunity when in the heat of battle). Far as the recharge on the "Opportunity" power, since it needs a needs full bar, it can recharge relatively fast.
• Two is if everyone has such a problem with Defensive Opportunity (I personally like having to worry less about endurance management extra powers/effects), then you can either roll Defensive Opportunity in with Offensive opportunity !!!OR!!! Better yet, make Defensive Opportunity another team option! What if instead of it just healing/end recovering YOU, it could do so to teammates who strike the Opportunity marked target! Maybe give some absorb (at half value the heal) to allies at full health? You could also just make activating Defensive Opportunity give some absorb and free end recover to you and teammates when it first activates, maybe with a little trickle more over the course of the activation time.  I love the idea of the Sentinel helping teammates and even working as a minor defender. Being more defender-like makes sense of the AT, even though a lot of people just want Sentinels to be a ranged Scrapper with crazy high damage AND defense... Sigh...
• Three, if you absolutely HAVE to make Opportunity work like another Fury, at least make it a team-orientated effect, not just a self damage boost. I get that most people just want to go fast and deal max damage, but we don't need a fully ranged Spines/Fire Brute AT, we really don't. For defensive options for the rework, there are some limits, I know. By level 50+ most players have maxed their Res and Def, so having the Opportunity bar boosting those will do no good (either doing nothing for many or making all AT have max defenses). What could be done is a protective system, one made to keep you team alive better, but when they are dying a lot. Maybe a toggle, so you don't always have to have it on, but one that can't be turned off by CC. Lets call this toggle the "Defensive Opportunity" toggle. So, when your "Defensive Opportunity" toggle is active, you protect your allies (and yourself) but lose meter by doing so. This means that when you or any ally take damage, they gain an amount of absorb to protect them. The amount of absorb is based on how much hit points they have when they take the hit (sort like what the reverse HP system the Blaster had, so lower life means more absorb). When you give an absorb, your Opportunity meter drains based on how much absorb was given out. To fill you Opportunity meter, you hit foes (with scale up for Elite and AV), beat foes and have allies fall. All fill the meter to various degrees, with allies falling filling the bar massively! With this system, you can still use the first suggestions "Opportunity activating power" (now called the "Offensive Opportunity" power) to designate a target for more damage, but at the cost of, say, 50% of the bar. The "Offensive Opportunity" power also still needs to recharge (given a longer recharge in this suggestion the the first suggestion above, obviously). Unlike the Brute, who gets to full fury and stays there, the Sentinels bar is constantly going up and down.

 

Hopefully theres a useful nugget in there you all can use, though I'm sure whatever you all have planned will be great!

[Gobbledigook]

4 hours ago, oldskool said:

Do you find yourself saying the following things when you say "Looking for group": 

 

1) Gosh... I really wish we had someone with Containment on our team.  

2) Gee willikers... we really need Scourge on this team.  We've got a lot of options to push damage when targets get below 50% health.  

3) Holy inherent Statesman... if only we had a Kheld to make our teams more adaptive! 

4) You know what?  Its clobbering time, and we need critical hits.  Get me a Stalker over a Scrapper because their inherent is more controlled.  

 

If you don't find yourself really scrutinizing the inherents and how they interact with your team, then why on Earth is this an issue with Sentinels?  I think people look at the sum of all parts of an AT when they assess value.  I really doubt most people think of Brutes down to Fury vs a Tanker's Gauntlet.  Instead, people just know that Brutes and Tankers are highly durable with one leaning more in that direction over the other.  Most players aren't brain dead.  They understand the core gist of mechanics.  

People should enjoy having Sentinels around because they contribute to the overall effectiveness of the team.  That can mean a lot more than just Opportunity.  

I know I'm being kind of nitpicky, but reading statements like this only fuel "Sentinels have no role" garbage.  Its like trying to pigeon hole the AT into something because there is some contrived notion this game needs roles.  Ever play on an all Defender team?  Ask those how it feels to not have a Tanker.  I'll bet they're all quaking in their boots.  /s 

 

Opportunity just needs to fit the spirit of the AT while contributing something worthwhile to that vision.  If it is a group scale buff, then cool.  If it is a personal effect, then cool.  It just needs to function in a manner that is accessible to all level ranges and easy enough to understand.  That's it.  This whole "opportunity needs to be wanted by groups" is just going to lead to disappointment and division where it doesn't need to exist. 

 

P.S., I do understand the feeling that Sentinels could have something to make them seem different.  I'm just of a mind that having a range set plus defense set is already unique.  Wishing their inherent as a means to make them acceptable to the community seems a bit like missing the point when so many other inherents aren't reasons why ATs hold intrinsic value.  Their inherents may add value to their innate design goals but these are just component pieces that make the AT's perceived to be good or not.  Also, most inherents are weaker than legit powers.  Some have fairly dramatic effects, but most feel more like an IO proc.  So I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high that Opportunity itself is going to be something that makes or break this AT.  It just needs to be a useful tool in a much broader tool kit.  If the intent behind the original comment, or others even remotely like it, aren't as black and white as they look -- forgive me.  Its just I'm interpreting what I read here and how it comes across from my own perspective.  The feels expressed about the value of Opportunity still have merit even if I am being a bit of a Devil's Advocate to discuss it from a different angle.  I just want to keep the peace. 😉 

Do you think the Sentinel actually brings anything to the table other classes don't do better?

 

If you want dps pick a blaster/Scrapper/stalker/brute possibly dominator

 

If you want a Tank pick a Tanker/Brute/Kheld

 

If you want controls pick a controller/dominator

 

Buffer/debuffer would be defender/corruptor/controller even Veat

 

If you want mediocre dps with some survival and little to no utility then pick a Sentinel. They have medium dps, lowered AoE and fairly good survival. They don't really fit into a dps/tanker/buffer or controller role as it is. They are just a weak blaster with a bit more survival or a ranged Scrapper with less dps and survival, not a good place really. Even a Tanker can do comparable dps whilst hitting far more targets and have far better survival and are far more useful in a team situation. Sentinels don't even farm as well as other ATs.

 

They need a better niche in my opinion.  Either increase the dps or make them wanted by groups for some buff effect etc. They don't need a lot to make them better really, either they get a dps boost or a utility boost.

 

But they are capable of doing content with no problems with their dps and survival and they are fun. But there are definitely better class choices available that do it.... Better!

 

I play Tankers mostly so i care not. I have played many Sentinels and this is just my view of them, fun at first then the fun slowly dwindles.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Underfyre]

On 7/14/2020 at 9:45 AM, Bopper said:

Rage = (ActivationTime + 0.132) x 7

DMG = 0.20 x 52.8297 x [ 0.8 x minmax(BaseRecharge, 1, 30) + 1.8 ] x 0.2 / AreaFactor

 

Anyways, hope some of that information helps.
 

This information absolutely helps me with my spreadsheet, so thanks for that. I downloaded the FapTastic.7z a while back to pull data for other ATs, but I don't see the Sentinel one. Where'd you go about pulling that data? I kind of want to scrutinize why some powers seem to give vastly more Opportunity than they should be.

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

Do you think the Sentinel actually brings anything to the table other classes don't do better?

 

If you want dps pick a blaster/Scrapper/stalker/brute possibly dominator

 

If you want a Tank pick a Tanker/Brute/Kheld

 

If you want controls pick a controller/dominator

 

Buffer/debuffer would be defender/corruptor/controller even Veat

 

If you want mediocre dps with some survival and little to no utility then pick a Sentinel. They have medium dps, lowered AoE and fairly good survival. They don't really fit into a dps/tanker/buffer or controller role as it is. They are just a weak blaster with a bit more survival or a ranged Scrapper with less dps and survival, not a good place really. Even a Tanker can do comparable dps whilst hitting far more targets and have far better survival and are far more useful in a team situation. Sentinels don't even farm as well as other ATs.

 

They need a better niche in my opinion.  Either increase the dps or make them wanted by groups for some buff effect etc. They don't need a lot to make them better really, either they get a dps boost or a utility boost.

 

But they are capable of doing content with no problems with their dps and survival and they are fun. But there are definitely better class choices available that do it.... Better!

 

I play Tankers mostly so i care not. I have played many Sentinels and this is just my view of them, fun at first then the fun slowly dwindles.

I actually really like these questions.  They cut to the core of everything I'm talking about and precisely a difference of perception.  

 

Do I think the Sentinel actually brings anything to the table other classes don't do better?  Well, that's easy on the surface.  Of course not.  Guess what?  I feel that way about a lot of classes.  Here's another thing to toss on to the pile.  I don't care.  You're first question kind shows at least two lines of thought here.  There is The Sentinels must do something better than and/or bring something better than some other AT line of thought.  It is the zero-sum argument.  Then there is The Sentinel fills a niche for an individual that the other ATs just can't line of thought.  Its a more carefree argument.  I definitely feel the later.  On top of feeling that way, I also recognize this game isn't so difficult that the Sentinel's current performance hinders my ability to complete objectives in this game.  Oddly enough, you note towards the end of your reply "but they are capable of doing content with no problems with their DPS and survival and they are fun".  That last part, they are fun, pretty much trumps the following "but there are definitely better class choices available that do it... better!".  Not quite.  I'll grant you that through a very narrow lens of viewing this game others ATs can do certain things better.  However, this isn't a determining factor for why I play a Sentinel.  Also, just to be real clear my feelings do not mean my thoughts about the AT getting a buff are somehow mutually exclusive.  

 

I enjoyed rolling up the Sentinel because it let me pair up ranged weapon sets (Assault Rifle, Dual Pistols, Beam Rifle, Archery) with secondary power sets that don't force constant redraw.  I really hate redraw in either of its optional forms as it really breaks character for me.  While I could play a */Devices or */Tactical Arrow Blaster the outcome does not achieve the same thing.  I can tell you I've tried it, and it doesn't work for me.  The Sentinel does.  

 

I know exactly where my favorite Sentinel build sits on DPS as it is right now.  I know precisely what it can do and how certain environmental factors (needing to click a heal, or inspires) impact my damage.  I can tell you that level of damage is less than certain Blaster builds, but it is not so much lower that it hinders my enjoyment.  At the same time it is not so low that I cannot still contribute to a team.  Additionally, this AT helps me play around in exemplar content without a need to worry if certain IO bonuses that are carrying my defense or just go poof.  Nor is the AT so dependent on Incarnates that is unplayable at a lower level.  Mind you I also play some Stalkers.  I'm well aware of the disparities in damage, but it is not so great that it ruins the AT for me.  

 

Before I move on, I just want to point out a few things. 

 

1) Bringing up Tankers post buff as some kind of "See!! Even Tankers do more with bonus AoE too!!" is more than a bit disingenuous.  Tankers had a balance pass.  The Sentinel has not.  Likewise goes for any comparisons of current fast-snipe.  Both of these buffs to Tankers and Blasters, respectively, are power creep.  I don't find it all that fair to be comparing ATs with buffs that bolster their damage as they did to an AT that hasn't yet even had its balance pass.  I think more to the point, we could use those concepts as methods of evaluating how to make Sentinels better, but to just say "See, X AT post buff is now better!" is just BS.

 

2) You're skipping over Masterminds and Night Widows. 😉 

If the only thing anyone gives a care about is the highest end of performance, then you really need to consider changing your "If, then" list.  Completely drop the the ATs non-sense altogether and just cut to the chase.  Why play anything other than Fire Blast on a Blaster?  Not just a Blaster, because not all Blaster combos are fantastic, but a Fire Blaster.   Scratch that.  Why bother playing a Fire Blaster when you can just play a Fire/Kinetics Corruptor?  Why play those when I can just play an Illusion/Storm Controller that can trivialize most content on its own?  This entire argument can get awfully circular, and it is why I'm not fond of it one bit. 

The rest of the list is just a series of binary logic.  It boils everything down to just a collect of metrics.  If that is yours or anyone elses idea of fun, then I won't stop you.  It isn't mine though.  I tend to look at my characters more as "will this work on X AT or Y AT".  I don't think just in terms of "well, Blasters are the most bestest at damage therefore, I must play Blaster".  Again, if that is anyone's bag, then express you're inner suicidal maniac that nukes sites from orbit (its the only way to be sure).  However, any of that pigeonholing isn't really necessary in this game, and you even note that.  So once again, how much damage does the Sentinel really need to do?

 

Anyway, can the Sentinel use better damage?  Sure!! I'd love a buff!!  Does that suddenly give it a niche it doesn't already fill?  No.  If Sentinels did more damage it just end up finding a place on your personal shelf of Blaster/Stalker/Scrapper/Brute/YoYo Master/Sentinel hierarchy.  That's fine too.  However, for other players the Sentinel will still fill the niche it already does and it will just do more damage.  Its a win/win for me.  

 

Once again, I do appreciate the reply.

 

P.S.  Going over all of that misses a lot of the point about why I don't care for "role" or "...has no place" kinds of commentary.  It comes across as being elitest in a game that is pretty easy by default.  We're not rushing Mythic+ 10 for the keys to get a minor upgrade so we can crush it on a progression raid.  This game isn't that competitive and if non-DPS ATs like Defenders can roll content without having a need for a Tanker then the entire concept of roles is just ridiculous in my opinion.  This game hasn't needed specific compositions for teams in a long, long, time.  Even at release it didn't always need them.  I'm totally fine if the Sentinel's only real niche is that its power set selection is different from some other ATs and it is.

Edited July 16, 2020 by oldskool

[Gobbledigook]

I do think we sort of agree but have differences.

 

The Sentinel needs a buff just like the Tanker had. A Tanker always had a defined role though. It just made it even better for more people. Those that were happy with it before are still happy with it now.

 

The Sentinel has by many been deemed mediocre in comparison to other AT's, why is that?. Its fun to play but so is a level 20 character. Does that mean i should stay at level 20? and so is a character using only SO's, why bother with IO's if i am having fun. How long that fun will last though when players see other AT's doing it better than them i don't know. The Sentinel is ok but could be much better with some imagination. If this is the best it is gonna be it can stay on the sideline. If i want a ranged dps ill pick a blaster for even more explosive fun. If i just want to survive and dps ill pick a Scrapper/brute or Tanker. If i want to support or have fun with pets or be sneaky or controlling then ill pick the other ATs. But the Sentinel does not really bring anything unique other than its sort of a weak blaster with a few shields. VEAT/Kheld.... which are more unique and more fun really.

 

The game is easy, Io's make it that way. Remove them and the game would change a lot. The sentinel may actually be good then 🙂. But it's an old game why bother? I don't really know why they changed the Tanker either.

 

Much of the Sentinels dps comes from the Epic power pool also, weirdly.

 

You play a fire blaster for extra damage, you play an energy blaster for knockback or ice for slows. They all have different attacks/animations so you may play them for that reason or a theme. A fire baster is only the highest end of performance if you wanted only damage, as that is all you will get. A fire/kinetics or illusion/storm controller are very very different than a Blaster or are you only talking about damage in certain situations? or just steam rolling the game?? i don't get the comparison. I already agreed the game is easy. Maybe we should just nerf the other AT's? the game would be more even more fun hehe.  Win Win!

 

 

 "I don't think just in terms of "well, Blasters are the most bestest at damage therefore, I must play Blaster"........ Please don't try to belittle with these sorts of comments and don't try to be insulting calling me elitist either it really isn't that clever.

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, underfyre said:

This information absolutely helps me with my spreadsheet, so thanks for that. I downloaded the FapTastic.7z a while back to pull data for other ATs, but I don't see the Sentinel one. Where'd you go about pulling that data? I kind of want to scrutinize why some powers seem to give vastly more Opportunity than they should be.

Check out RubyRed's API tool. There is a link to it in my signature. I recommend using Firefox to read the JSON easily

[oldskool]

9 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

 "I don't think just in terms of "well, Blasters are the most bestest at damage therefore, I must play Blaster"........ Please don't try to belittle with these sorts of comments and don't try to be insulting calling me elitist either it really isn't that clever.

If the first part bothered you, then I apologize.  Was it too far to use "bestest"?  Perhaps, and I'll be careful on that.  

For the latter, I think you're looking for insult where none is given.  Not once did I call you elitist.  I wrote "It comes across as".  I do get how that could be taken personally, but that is a misunderstanding.  The indictment is against the use of certain loaded language and not the authors themselves.  If we can't have a discussion where a party expresses how it feels to read degrading commentary, then we really can't get very far in conversation here.  I find some of the loaded commentary I mentioned inflammatory.

 

9 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

The Sentinel needs a buff just like the Tanker had. A Tanker always had a defined role though. It just made it even better for more people. Those that were happy with it before are still happy with it now.

I don't disagree that the AT could use a buff.  However, the current role is ranged DPS.  Just because it may not live up to whatever potential it should doesn't mean it doesn't have a role.  It just isn't as good at that role as it could be.  Much of your statement is really no different for Tankers as it is for Sentinels.  The difference is the perception of current effectiveness.  Since the Sentinel isn't as effective as it should be, it therefore it has no role.  Am I missing something in this interpretation?

 

9 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

The Sentinel has by many been deemed mediocre in comparison to other AT's, why is that?

It has a wide range of reasons when you start reading between the lines.  

 

1) Some people are holding on to how ranged blast sets function in legacy ATs like Blasters, Defenders and Corruptors.  This is a lack of acceptance that Sentinels do not do the exact same thing with the same powers.  

2) Some people do not understand the inherent, and that isn't their fault.  It is too complex for its own good.  Its effects are also measurably weak and exacerbated by the lengthy downtime of the clickable effect.  
3) Some people are making direct comparisons, apples to apples style, with other ATs.  Most notably the comparison point is the Blaster, and this seems to be a leading cause of the misunderstanding.  Sentinels aren't comparable to Blasters.  That's not just for damage, but due to entire AT mechanics including secondary power interaction.  Sentinels are, conceptually, more comparable to Scrappers.  It is plain as day to see where discrepancies lie.  
4) Some people are making direct comparisons with outlier builds as justification for comparisons to Sentinel failures.  Maybe we're not seeing that directly in this thread, but some posters here have done exactly that in the past.   

5) There are inevitable comparisons to experiences of only a portion of play and not holistic view.  

6) There is the occasional parroting of common forum knowledge.  It can be apparent, at times, when some people haven't really explored the AT beyond a certain point.  That's fine to find that the AT in its current form isn't meeting expectations.  Its not cool to diminish others based on a narrow band of experience. 

I don't intend for the above to be all inclusive either.  Some folks just won't like anything about the Sentinel because it won't click with their style.  That's unlikely to ever change until it fits within whatever box they've decided to build.  
 

9 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

If this is the best it is gonna be it can stay on the sideline. But the Sentinel does not really bring anything unique other than its sort of a weak blaster with a few shields. 

Sorry, I need to cut out some of the extra text.  I'm not real sure they do a good job of supporting your argument so I'm looking at what stands out.  

We already know that the dev team does not feel like the current implementation is the best it is gonna be.  You can sideline this AT if you don't like it as that is your prerogative.  However, we know it is going to change.  

The Sentinel not really bringing anything unique isn't really going to change much unless the devs truly due a full uprooting.  Just working the inherent into something different doesn't change the fact the AT still has blasts with shields.  You're also making the comparison of "weak blaster" here.  You're entitled to your opinion, and I want to respect that.  However, Blasters have a lot of flaws in comparison here.  Yes, the Sentinel has less than a Blaster's AoE capability.  However, that isn't the point of comparison.  The Sentinel has larger AoE than Scrappers.  The Sentinel has an AoE nuke for a T9 that Scrappers do not have access to.  I'm not going to bother debating the merits of the level of quality of this AoE difference.  I'm just stating that the intent of that design is what has been expressed.  
 

9 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

You play a fire blaster for extra damage, you play an energy blaster for knockback or ice for slows. They all have different attacks/animations so you may play them for that reason or a theme. A fire baster is only the highest end of performance if you wanted only damage, as that is all you will get. 

I feel you're making my point for me.  You could substitute "Sentinel" with "Blaster" and it works just as well for the first 2 sentences.  You play a Fire Sentinel, or Energy Sentinel for their effects and for that reason or theme.  Whether or not the Sentinel is worth playing for your goals is going to be personal preference.  I get the impression you'd rather play something else.  That's great, and there is an AT that exists that checks the boxes in the Blaster for you.  However, this mindset is not universal.  Even in its current form, the Sentinel fills a void for some players (my self included) that hadn't existed in the game.  We can agree to disagree on whatever points you wish here.  

If you like we can take this to PM and not derail this further.  As it is, I think I'm done.  I'm not really offering ideas to change anything of the Sentinel at this point but merely discussing semantics on where to drive productivity.  My efforts aren't probably doing much of anything at all other than to get misconstrued in a manner I don't want. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by oldskool
On second thought, I feel there is some value in addressing some topics.