Did tanks get overbuffed?

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, VV said:

Okay, so that is a legitimate test. Let's talk about that. What is the problem you are having while soloing your ITF, STF, AV, GM or other hard target? Also, you just proved me horribly right. I said Pylon solos do not come up in regular play, and here you are NOT talking about Pylon solos.

The ITF isn't regular play? It is for me. I use it as my primary test for every character I have. Solo and teamed.

Running into AVs isn't regular play? How do you think I get the passive accolades?

 

8 minutes ago, VV said:

So, SOs are the definition of "average"? Why?

That's not my definition but you will see MANY posters around here, even in this thread, imply that the game is balanced around SOs and therefore the average is balanced around SOs.

Personally, I find that argument pretty much horseshit.

*MY* average build is a mix of basic IOs and some sets.

*MY* end builds are fully purpled, pvped, AT IOed, Wintered, ect and cranked to whatever balance I can find between damage output and mitigation.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, VV said:

I would like to see that data, yeah. But, please include a Blaster, a Sentinal, a Controller, a Dominator, and all the other ATs. I mean, if we are talking about balance, why are we only talking about a few of the ATs? That makes no sense. Shouldn't ALL the ATs be balanced against each other?

No, because this thread is about the current balance point between brutes and tanks.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

ahhh but where do Blasters and Stalkers fit in?

Again, not the topic at hand. Although I'll go ahead and time my scrapper since he exists and those three ATs are worthwhile to the discussion.

[Bopper]

31 minutes ago, Troo said:

ahhh but where do Blasters and Stalkers fit in?

No idea with Blasters. I find it's most appropriate to let Blasters be compared to Sentinels for their own flame war discussions haha.

As for Stalkers, I believe their damage potential would rank higher than Scrappers (but that's more of a mechanics of crit/hide than just throwing AT mods and damage caps into it). Also, Stalkers would rank at the bottom for Survival potential.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 DA missions down, 13 to go. Real question is whether I remain sober enough today to pull this off....

[marcussmythe]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

2 DA missions down, 13 to go. Real question is whether I remain sober enough today to pull this off....

While the ability of an AT to perform while the player is intoxicated -IS- an important consideration for some of us.. I think thats probably a separate day of testing. 🙂

 

[Galaxy Brain]

@Bill Z Bubba, I would recommend the Mission Simulator map (to be published when I get home). It has a guaranteed 3 boss and 1 EB spawn, and a set map each time to limit variables. The DA missions, while nice, have different maps which WILL affect clear time unfairly.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Bill Z Bubba, I would recommend the Mission Simulator map (to be published when I get home). It has a guaranteed 3 boss and 1 EB spawn, and a set map each time to limit variables. The DA missions, while nice, have different maps which WILL affect clear time unfairly.

But will they over a 5 mission spread for each AT? I think not.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

But will they over a 5 mission spread for each AT? I think not.

I think so. 

 

Even if its just 2 maps, across just 5 missions each the terrain will be different enough from start to finish with the spread (5-0 to 3-2) to impact times in a way that is not controlled.

[Xanatos]

No.

[ScarySai]

Disclaimer: Even after the buffs, I have zero experience or interest in playing a tank. Brutes are something I am much more familiar with.

 

What metric are we basing this on?  While I would have liked to see bruising get a change instead of buffing tank damage so much, I have doubts of any competently built brute losing to a tank in a dps race.

 

The key is the damage cap and fury. If we are talking about pylon representation, we have to keep in mind that not turning on assault, popping insps or waiting to cap fury are all key factors in a beatdown test. In an actual mission scenario, solo or grouped, with insps and damage buffs being spammed as tons of targets generate fury, I feel like brutes are still second only to scrappers.

Edited July 6, 2020 by ScarySai
Typo

[Bill Z Bubba]

I'm not concerned with what happens at the caps and I don't think any of us should be.

I'm concerned with how the ATs perform while solo.

Granted, this is an MMO, but that only means you CAN team... it doesn't mean you have to.

When teamed, you can gather all manner of crazy ass buffs. You can hit the mitigation or damage caps. It depends solely on who you decide to team with.

Quite frankly, though, that's damn near impossible to balance around unless you just gear your view based on the caps.

And that's fine. Take that view into account.

But if you ignore the solo values, then you don't actually give a shit about game balance.

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

2 DA missions down, 13 to go. Real question is whether I remain sober enough today to pull this off....

That depends. If drinks are a normal part of gameplay then that is something to account for. You just may need to rotate AT every mission instead of doing five and then switching. Also you can compare your times for each AT as you have more adult beverages. All for science of course.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

That depends. If drinks are a normal part of gameplay then that is something to account for. You just may need to rotate AT every mission instead of doing five and then switching. Also you can compare your times for each AT as you have more adult beverages. All for science of course.

Drinking is a normal part of my existence, doubly so since the son graduated high school and triply so since the apocalypse landed on our heads and I've been 100% working from home.

[VV]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The ITF isn't regular play? It is for me. I use it as my primary test for every character I have. Solo and teamed.

Running into AVs isn't regular play? How do you think I get the passive accolades?

I just said those are regular play. What are you reading? What is the trouble you are having with those?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, VV said:

I just said those are regular play. What are you reading? What is the trouble you are having with those?

I have no issues with any of them. Obviously, I failed to grasp whatever point you're trying to make.

[VV]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I have no issues with any of them. Obviously, I failed to grasp whatever point you're trying to make.

I'm asking what is your comparative results in those? If you have no trouble with them on either a Tank or a Brute, then, in fact, it seems like you are invalidating your own point, that Tankers are better than Bruters.

[Troo]

In general, the intention is as follows:

 

Damage

    Scrapper > Brute > Tanker
    Scrapper 10 out of 10
    Brute 9 out of 10
    Tanker 7 out of 10 (recent changes may push this closer to 😎

 

Survivability

    Tanker > Brute > Scrapper
    Scrapper 7 out of 10
    Brute 8 out of 10
    Tanker 10 out of 10

 

However the story is much more nuanced.

•     Some archetypes may benefit from certain power sets more than others.
•     During leveling, the differences are more apparent.
•     At 50 though, with invention origin sets and incarnates, builds can close the gaps between archetypes. Brutes and Tanks could start to differ only at the extremes.

Apples to apples comparisons across all situations is daunting.

 

Spoiler

 

note: it's possible some of the stats need updating, but this is what's available in one spot.

 

Highly advanced builds that leverage min/maxing or focus on procs can bend things even further from the general norms.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Troo
added spoiler with modifiers and limits

[MunkiLord]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

In general, the intention is as follows:

 

Damage

    Scrapper > Brute > Tanker
    Scrapper 10 out of 10
    Brute 9 out of 10
    Tanker 7 out of 10 (recent changes may push this closer to 😎

 

Survivability

    Tanker > Brute > Scrapper
    Scrapper 7 out of 10
    Brute 8 out of 10
    Tanker 10 out of 10

 

However the story is much more nuanced.

•     Some archetypes may benefit from certain power sets more than others.
•     During leveling, the differences are more apparent.
•     At 50 though, with invention origin sets and incarnates, builds can close the gaps between archetypes. Brutes and Tanks could start to differ only at the extremes.

Apples to apples comparisons across all situations is daunting.

 

Highly advanced builds that leverage min/maxing or focus on procs can bend things even further from the general norms.

But that means each AT averages 8.5 and since Scrappers are what Chuck Norris wants to be when he grows up, clearly a tie is bad math. 

[Troo]

5 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

But that means each AT averages 8.5 and since Scrappers are what Chuck Norris wants to be when he grows up, clearly a tie is bad math. 

Chuck Norris is clearly a Stalker arguing "why do I need to take T1 hide?!".. nah, I can't go there. He's a scrapper.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

ahhh but where do Blasters and Stalkers fit in?

Joke.. just a joke.

Who cares about blasters anyway.. bunch of dirt tasting aficionados. "Pew Pew, oh crap!"

[Bill Z Bubba]

19 minutes ago, VV said:

I'm asking what is your comparative results in those? If you have no trouble with them on either a Tank or a Brute, then, in fact, it seems like you are invalidating your own point, that Tankers are better than Bruters.

One needs insps to survive in AE 801 content, the other does not. One can handle LR's aggro on a MLTF the other can't without faceplanting. Obviously, there's a an actual, observable difference between the mitigation values between the two ATs using the same powersets, and those differences must be taken into account when considering overall AT balance.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

One needs insps to survive in AE 801 content, the other does not. One can handle LR's aggro on a MLTF the other can't without faceplanting. Obviously, there's a an actual, observable difference between the mitigation values between the two ATs using the same powersets, and those differences must be taken into account when considering overall AT balance.

 

Tanking Lord Recluse on a MLTF is not an AT issue, it's a power set issue.  My Radiation Armor Brute can tank Lord Recluse just fine, as can any Electric Armor Brute.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Tanking Lord Recluse on a MLTF is not an AT issue, it's a power set issue.  My Radiation Armor Brute can tank Lord Recluse just fine, as can any Electric Armor Brute.

 

Tanking LR is a datapoint. As is soloing max diff ITF or DA content. If one isn't looking at the entirety of the content when making decisions then one is doing it wrong. So those making the argument "but when teamed" or "but when using AT powerset" then they're wrong. I'm in this thread with datapoints. I use claws and sr as my generators of data points. I would be ecstatic if other players came in with other powerset combos doing the tests I'm doing so that more datapoints were in play.

[Mezmera]

42 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Tanking LR is a datapoint. As is soloing max diff ITF or DA content. If one isn't looking at the entirety of the content when making decisions then one is doing it wrong. So those making the argument "but when teamed" or "but when using AT powerset" then they're wrong. I'm in this thread with datapoints. I use claws and sr as my generators of data points. I would be ecstatic if other players came in with other powerset combos doing the tests I'm doing so that more datapoints were in play.

I tank Lord Recluse with my SR stalker with Provoke.  Granted it's much easier with my tank due to auto taunt and that high hp.  I'd venture to say that thanks to Incarnates and set bonuses the only limitation is your imagination.