Did tanks get overbuffed?

[Bill Z Bubba]

33 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

No, not to me.

You are deliberately constraining the discussion to situations where toughness matters. However, damage always matters. So, in a situation where one AT's advantage is irrelevant some portion of the time, then it makes sense for that advantage to be greater when it matters to make up for the fact that it's not relevant some portion of the time.

The portion of the time that a Tanker's higher toughness is irrelevant... is unknown. It depends on the difficulty level, it depends on the level. It depends on teaming vs solo, and on team composition. But a Brute's lower damage advantage is always relevant, thus it shouldn't be as high.

 

I'm not sure how it's possible to come up with a balance ratio between Damage Advantage vs Toughness Advantage given that we don't know at what percentage of the time the TA will be irrelevant (other than Trick Arrows always being irrelevant 😛 ). But I think it should be intuitively obvious that there SHOULD be a higher TA than DA because of this "occasionally irrelevant TA" situation.

 

So, in short... I am completey okay with having AT balance predicated on the idea that damage is just more relevant than anything else in the game, and an AT that gains 10% damage should give up MORE than 10% effectiveness in other aspects of the game.

When faceplanted, damage drops to zero.

 

Tanks should not have a grossly exaggerated Toughness Advantage across the board when Brutes are only 10% faster on the damage front.

 

For me, toughness always matters, so I can't agree that I'm constraining the discussion. I like to play this game at that edge. Why else would I love SR so much? It's often like the old blaster defiance. "Fine, get me closer to death! For I shall only become TOUGHER!"

 

Sure. We could all go back to playing at +0/x1 and at that lvl, yes, absolutely a lot of this becomes amazingly moot. But most of us, I would hope at least, don't play there.

[Omega-202]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

When faceplanted, damage drops to zero.

 

Tanks should not have a grossly exaggerated Toughness Advantage across the board when Brutes are only 10% faster on the damage front.

 

For me, toughness always matters, so I can't agree that I'm constraining the discussion. I like to play this game at that edge. Why else would I love SR so much? It's often like the old blaster defiance. "Fine, get me closer to death! For I shall only become TOUGHER!"

 

Sure. We could all go back to playing at +0/x1 and at that lvl, yes, absolutely a lot of this becomes amazingly moot. But most of us, I would hope at least, don't play there.

Again, I'm not really getting this whole "my Brute is too squishy" argument.  

 

What content are you playing where your Brute is struggling to survive?  As someone who constantly runs off and solos in ITFs and has soloed Dark Astoria missions on the full spectrum from squish ball Corruptor to Stone Tank, I can't fathom what content is consistently dropping your Brute to the point that it's a problem worth considering.  

 

In a different thread, just to prove a point on the difficulty (or lack thereof) in the current state of the game, I checked to see just how tough my Invuln STALKER was, and the answer was "10 lvl 54 Freakshow Tanks wailing on him at once" just to make him need to pop a few greens and run.  If that's what a Stalker can do, what is threatening your Brute?

[Bill Z Bubba]

13 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Again, I'm not really getting this whole "my Brute is too squishy" argument.  

 

What content are you playing where your Brute is struggling to survive?  As someone who constantly runs off and solos in ITFs and has soloed Dark Astoria missions on the full spectrum from squish ball Corruptor to Stone Tank, I can't fathom what content is consistently dropping your Brute to the point that it's a problem worth considering.  

 

In a different thread, just to prove a point on the difficulty (or lack thereof) in the current state of the game, I checked to see just how tough my Invuln STALKER was, and the answer was "10 lvl 54 Freakshow Tanks wailing on him at once" just to make him need to pop a few greens and run.  If that's what a Stalker can do, what is threatening your Brute?

I will never be one to deny that power creep in this game went off the rails long ago. Actually, right around the time the Inventions system was added.

 

But it's easy to find a group to nullify you. I finally managed to get my tank killed by hitting the aggro cap of rularuu with a bunch of nasty chomping floating eyeballs present.

 

It's not a question of what can we manage with fully IOed/Purpled/PvPed/T4 Incarnated/All passive accolades cranked up builds.

 

The question is does equity exist? Many here believe it does because brutes are capable of near tank mitigation but that only occurs with massive incoming buffs from whatever source. I disagree because for vastly less "work" a tank can reach near brute damage output at or not at the cap.

[Omega-202]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's not a question of what can we manage with fully IOed/Purpled/PvPed/T4 Incarnated/All passive accolades cranked up builds.

 

The question is does equity exist? 

Why not?  That's what the game is now.  And anyone not at the point of playing in that space isn't going to give a rat's ass about the marginal benefits between Tanks and Brutes.  

 

To the second question: no, equity is a mess between all ATs, but its a hell of a lot closer for Tanks and Brutes than everything else.  For 99% of content that's not 10+ endgame bosses, the durability disparity is a non issue and therefore Brutes still come out ahead.  

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The mitigation values are so much ridiculously higher on the tank that losing a piddly 10% damage output doesn't come close to balancing the equation.

You are right.

If toughness is most important, Tank is the way to go, and as intended.

If damage is most important out of Tanker, Brute, Scrapper then Scrapper could be the selection.

If both are desired Brute has an edge until... "fully IOed/Purpled/PvPed/T4 Incarnated/All passive accolades cranked up builds".

 

Folks might be surprised how blurred roles of different ATs can become at that level. Things like "I don't wanna chase targets all over" become more relevant solo while also less relevant on heavy hitting team.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Troo

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

Things like "I don't wanna chase targets all over" become more relevant solo while also less relevant on heavy hitting team.

And I can always drops afterburner for confront on the scrapper.

 

Brutes should have higher base mitigation values than they do and it should have been done at the same time as the tank damage buff but I accept that I have the minority view on that topic.

[drbuzzard]

I suppose I could mention it again- this demonstration is picking a comparison which does not favor the brute here. Given that we're doing ratios, using procs and a set (claws) which gives a permanent damage boost which favors the tanker and that is clear if you just look at the numbers. It's not enough to close the gap, but it has to narrow it.

 

I'll do some lazy numbers again (same, I'm still lazy) .

 

tanker at +100% damage enhancement for power doing 100 damage is 190 damage (.95 scalar)

brute at +100% damage enhancement plus 75%  (another 150% damage) fury (low honestly) 262.5

 

Which gave us tanker damage at 72%.

 

Say we add in follow up stacked twice: +40% damage

 

tanker goes to 2.4 x.95 x 100 =228

brute goes to 3.9 x .75 = 292.5

 

and the ratio becomes 78%

 

Make that a triple follow up stack for 60% damage boost and we get to 80%. Throw in procs and it gets closer still.

 

You see, Bubba, the thing about CoH is that it isn't balanced. Has never been balanced. It likely never will be balanced. There's simply too many nooks and crannies of power interactions which would have to be accounted for take try an make everything work.

 

You want your brute and tanker to be balanced? OK, we'll get rid of how follow up works, and give you build up. There, problem solved. Be careful of what you wish for. The anomaly here isn't a tanker/brute imbalance due to the buffs, it's follow up (or we could bring up rage or soul drain).

 

 

 

[drbuzzard]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

That's my problem, Doc... there's zero reason to roll up an SR brute. None. Zip. Nada. The mitigation values are so much ridiculously higher on the tank that losing a piddly 10% damage output doesn't come close to balancing the equation. Oh, unless you cherry pick the right team to get you to the caps, of course. Doesn't mean squat if you solo or don't have those kind of buffs.

 

The thing is, you're using one of the outlier cases which is what gets you so close. If the comparison were, say, war mace, I'm reasonably sure it can demonstrated that the difference is more in line with the durability gap.

 

After the tanker boost, I still see plenty more brutes out there and I'm pretty certain the player statistics data will bear that out.

 

Heck, you're really picking on two anomalies here in your comparison. First is the damage distortion of follow up, and then there's the incarnate softcap. You might ask why I consider that a distortion- but compare it to resistance sets. A brute and tanker both share a 90 resistance cap, and it is fairly attainable for many damage types depending on the armor set (I have a rad/elec brute who caps lethal, smashing, fire, cold, energy at 90% with decent values for psionic and negative energy- leaving only the toxic hole). This 90% resistance doesn't care if the game content is incarnate or non-incarnate.

 

I don't think you are being disingenuous or anything, you're using the characters you have and like. It happens to be that your characters are sort of edge cases.

[Bill Z Bubba]

20 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

tanker at +100% damage enhancement for power doing 100 damage is 190 damage (.95 scalar)

brute at +100% damage enhancement plus 75%  (another 150% damage) fury (low honestly) 262.5

 

Which gave us tanker damage at 72%.

 

Say we add in follow up stacked twice: +40% damage

 

tanker goes to 2.4 x.95 x 100 =228

brute goes to 3.9 x .75 = 292.5

Why not calculate in the average up time of buildup for both? Mids is showing 80% for both and I just verified that in game.

And the value for tank followup is higher than brute followup as per mids. 35.29 vs 30. Mids is not accurate. In game monitor shows 30% for both tank and brute.

 

Regardless, but both followup and build up benefit the tank more due to the tank's higher base damage mod, as you've shown.

[Bill Z Bubba]

35 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

You see, Bubba, the thing about CoH is that it isn't balanced. Has never been balanced. It likely never will be balanced.

And I don't disagree with this statement at all. But there's no reason not to fix broken shit.

[Bill Z Bubba]

24 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

It happens to be that your characters are sort of edge cases.

LOL. I can't count the number of times I've been called an edge case.

 

Yes, AND a head case but that's a different story.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

33 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Heck, you're really picking on two anomalies here in your comparison. First is the damage distortion of follow up, and then there's the incarnate softcap. You might ask why I consider that a distortion- but compare it to resistance sets. A brute and tanker both share a 90 resistance cap, and it is fairly attainable for many damage types depending on the armor set (I have a rad/elec brute who caps lethal, smashing, fire, cold, energy at 90% with decent values for psionic and negative energy- leaving only the toxic hole). This 90% resistance doesn't care if the game content is incarnate or non-incarnate.

But I want to hit this specifically.

What happens if you build an elec/rad tank? All that extra effort you spent getting to those caps on the brute could instead be spent on increasing your damage output.

 

Edit: Let me put this another way. What happens to my SR tank's damage output when I build it to specifically to match the SR brute's current mitigation values? That leaves a WHOLE lotta build room to increase his kill speed.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Omega-202]

16 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Edit: Let me put this another way. What happens to my SR tank's damage output when I build it to specifically to match the SR brute's current mitigation values? That leaves a WHOLE lotta build room to increase his kill speed.

Do it and show us the builds if you believe it would work out that way.  Give us a build for each that hits 50% defense, and similar resists and show us what you can do with the extra slots.  

 

I can't see where you're going to squeeze out any significant damage on your Tank that you couldn't match on rhe Brute.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

Do it and show us the builds if you believe it would work out that way.  Give us a build for each that hits 50% defense, and similar resists and show us what you can do with the extra slots.  

 

I can't see where you're going to squeeze out any significant damage on your Tank that you couldn't match on rhe Brute.  

It's too bad that the brute isn't sitting at 50%. At the VERY least I get to drop combat jumping and add in assault. Will probably be able to drop energy mastery and add in pyre mastery for more aoe.

 

[Myrmidon]

And yet another perspective.

 

 

Tyrannical’s “Wild Kingdom”

 

“Today we witness Brute Mains in their natural habitat; the 'pls buff' thread. They are extremely territorial creatures that distrust one another, and are prone to hostility at the slightest provocation, often fighting over mere scraps of logic that are precious sustenance for their arguments.

 

In the event that one 'Alpha' Brute Main challenges another, a battle will ensue for several posts as a fight for domination. This fight can last for days and often there is no clear victor, and both Alphas retreat to their lair to lick their wounds ready for the next pointless spat when a new thread is inevitably created.

 

Brute Mains can easily be stunned if they are presented with an ultimatum; play actual challenging content. This paralyzing attack on their ego is enough to leave them confused and often they back away from such a challenge, afraid to surrender their position.

 

It is rare for a Brute Main to coexist with other players, as their need to be the apex predator encourages them to attack Tankers and Scrappers on sight, thinking them as unwelcome competition in their game. Defenders and Controllers are easy prey for these beasts, driving them out of their teams and into the wilds.

 

It is also rare to see a Brute Main domesticated, as their abandonment of sensibility only deters other players from adopting them into their pack, fearing that they will continue to bitch and whine even when they are presented with small buffs to their performance, and often feigning death cries when they are needed to be nerfed.

 

So remember, if you see a Brute Main in the wild, it's best to leave it well alone, and hope that it doesn't drag you into one of it's inane arguments.”

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

And yet another perspective.

Made doubly amusing since my *main* is the scrapper, seconded by the tank. I'm trying to determine why the brute exists.

[Peacemoon]

13 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Made doubly amusing since my *main* is the scrapper, seconded by the tank. I'm trying to determine why the brute exists.

Well I suppose to go way back to the start the brute was a more aggressive version of the Tank villains. Lines got blurred when every AT became available to everyone.
 

The same issue applies to Defenders and Corruptors. For quite a few builds a Defender will outdamage the Corruptor with the same sets.

So the elephant in the room is a lot of these ATs were not designed to be direct competition with each other.

[marcussmythe]

14 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Made doubly amusing since my *main* is the scrapper, seconded by the tank. I'm trying to determine why the brute exists.

I think if you are using SR, which gives the same caps to DEF on a Brute as on a Scrapper, and which also loves really high base HP of a Tank to buy more scaling time for its RES the Brute doesnt have a great arguement.   Of those three ATs, Brute is the last I would pick.

 

If you are using claws, which leverages a constant Dambuff from F/U, the higher base damage mods of the Scrapper and Tanker get more use from it - and the Brute less so.

 

For your particular combo - yes, the Brute has it hard, I think.  A Resist set would push the Scrapper some out of the Spotlight.  A high raw damage, self buff set would be notably better on the Brute than the Tank.  So maybe Mace/Invuln

[Bill Z Bubba]

Here's a quick new SR/Claws tank build.

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1529&c=716&a=1432&f=HEX&dc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

 

 

 

 

Edit: Wait... kismet +6% ain't global? The power has to be on for it to function? Whatever. Throw a slow resist or whatever in there. Or take taunt.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bopper]

28 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Edit: Wait... kismet +6% ain't global? The power has to be on for it to function? Whatever. Throw a slow resist or whatever in there. Or take taunt.

I believe Kismet is a 120s duration bonus, similar to Numina and Miracle. If the power it is slotted in is activated, you will get the buff for the next 2 minutes.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Why, yes, I am currently running Black Scorpion's arc on live so that I can respec my sr/claws tank into the above build and rerun 10 maps of that test arc.

 

For the record, the brute with the identical slotting as above?

 

Not even regular softcapped:

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Boulis]

Hi everyone,

 

Long time lurker, first time poster and a noob to homecoming on top of it (played CoH religiously on live)! First let me thank the wonderful people who brought this -- the greatest MMO evah -- wonderful game back: you are the true heroes!!!

 

Now, I know I'm wading into the thick of it here in this discussion with the heavyweights and I am no good at math either. However, even though I only roll concept characters, I tend to like to research builds (a lot) before I deploy a toon and I have really looked into builds created by many of the posters in this thread. It seems obvious both sides of this debate know the mechanics of the game intimately. I wanted a Claws/SR toon because that's what I had back on live (a scrapper in those days). Tried it out here but decided I liked the survivability of the brute a bit more (though a tank would have been a bit off concept for me) so I switched. I am enjoying it so far (lvl 25) but had a question that might apply to this debate tangentially. I was told that brutes benefit from quick attacking sets that allow them to build and maintain fury and thus a higher damage output per second. But I see now that some posters above are saying DPS for a brute might be better with heavier weapon sets. So which is it?

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Boulis said:

I was told that brutes benefit from quick attacking sets that allow them to build and maintain fury and thus a higher damage output per second

The Fury formula was changed in January. It now factors in the recharge time of the attacks used to calculate how much Fury you get. So that helps even out Fury generation between fast sets and slow sets.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Boulis said:

Hi everyone,

 

Long time lurker, first time poster and a noob to homecoming on top of it (played CoH religiously on live)! First let me thank the wonderful people who brought this -- the greatest MMO evah -- wonderful game back: you are the true heroes!!!

 

Now, I know I'm wading into the thick of it here in this discussion with the heavyweights and I am no good at math either. However, even though I only roll concept characters, I tend to like to research builds (a lot) before I deploy a toon and I have really looked into builds created by many of the posters in this thread. It seems obvious both sides of this debate know the mechanics of the game intimately. I wanted a Claws/SR toon because that's what I had back on live (a scrapper in those days). Tried it out here but decided I liked the survivability of the brute a bit more (though a tank would have been a bit off concept for me) so I switched. I am enjoying it so far (lvl 25) but had a question that might apply to this debate tangentially. I was told that brutes benefit from quick attacking sets that allow them to build and maintain fury and thus a higher damage output per second. But I see now that some posters above are saying DPS for a brute might be better with heavier weapon sets. So which is it?

Slot the brute AT IO for a chance for +fury into whatever attack you use often. You'll be sitting in the upper 90% on fury which means you'll be cranking out damage at +180%. This is thing of beauty, fully stop. Play what feels good to you. Play what's fun for you. Ignore this number crunchin crap unless you LIKE the number crunchin crap.

[skoryy]

I'm leaning more towards the actual question should be "Do Brute damage buff powers need a buff?"